DTWPurserBoy
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:10 pm

This goodbye was written by one of my colleagues at Delta. It pretty well sums up our feelings about the beloved 747 series.

Just flew my last 747 trip and had some thoughts about "The Queen"...
For many years you have been my office, my clinic, my bedroom, my kitchen, my dining room, my great room where I have entertained many many guests, and the place where hundreds of therapy sessions have been held. You, my friend, have been my home away from home. With you, I have met thousands of people from all corners of the Earth. I have heard & shared many stories, had many laughs & have made many friends with you. The memories with you are priceless, the destinations countless. You have taken me thru cloudy skies, clear skies, rain, sleet, snow, tornadoes, cyclones, typhoons & thru some of the most beautiful cloud formations I have ever seen. We've witnessed many sunsets, sunrises, seen the mountains, the seas & lands, the Northern Lights, the Milky Way & stars so bright they have taken my breath away. Together we have experienced ups, downs & everything in-between. We've seen the good, the bad, the icky & the best of life. I know you like the back of my hand. Your quirks, your certain sounds, your unique & distinctive idiosyncrasies. We have grown old together but you are still a glorious, beautiful majestic machine & your presence is magnificent. You have been affectionately known as "The Whale", but you are & always will be "QUEEN OF THE SKIES."
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burnsie28
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:12 pm

Just also as a side note

N672US was the "Spirit of Asia"
N671US was the "Spirit of Detroit"
 
audidudi
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:15 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 49):

According to the reply 16 of "panamair" above, these three ships are not owned outright, but are currently leased! So that shoots that argument down!
 
b747400erf
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:43 pm

Quoting ThomasMTroxell (Reply 15):
I'm sure at their young age and low cycle count they'll get some use as a freighter.

There has been no market for converted freighters for many years now. Even factory built freighters are sitting in storage around the world.
 
MD80Nut
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:30 pm

My only flights on the 744 was with AF back in 2008 MIA-CDG-MIA. It doesn't look like I will be adding any more 744 flights, so sad to see them go.

Cheers, Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
burnsie28
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:41 pm

Quoting audidudi (Reply 52):
According to the reply 16 of "panamair" above, these three ships are not owned outright, but are currently leased! So that shoots that argument down!

12 of 16 aircraft are leased.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:47 pm

Quoting burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Ship 6312/N672US Manufactured July 1999
Quoting burnsie28 (Thread starter):
Oct 1: DL 9951 ATL-MZJ 10:15-11:00

Goodbye old fellow.

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
lpdal
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:51 pm

Quoting airafreak (Reply 34):
and now I hope to see at least a 747 equipment swap for our usual LAX-ATL Thanksgiving Weekend services.

I've seen people go on and on about a supposed Delta 744 service during Thanksgiving, but never any solid proof. What day are you referring to, Friday the 28th, Saturday the 29th, or Sunday the 30th? I don't care if the ticket costs an absurd sum, I'd need to be on that flight!   

Yes, I know it's an equipment swap and you can't tell the exact day or flight. However, some insight into what has been the most-equipment-swapped-to-744 date would be highly helpful on Thanksgiving weekend.

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:03 pm

N661US:

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Photo © Timothy Hannan


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Photo © Martin Boschhuizen - AirTeamImages
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Photo © Sam Chui



N672US

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Photo © Weimeng
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Photo © flightdeckimages


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Photo © Yochai Mossi - AirTeamImages



N676NW

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Photo © Randall Johnson
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Farewell, beautiful birds.   
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:25 pm

So sad to see these birds go. 6316 has a particular history with my family. The pilot in the captain's seat on the Canarsie climb out of JFK is my dad on his retirement trip. I was sitting behind him in the jumpseat, and my mom in the first row in first class.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/3/2/0/0511023.jpg

RIP, pretty ladies.

[Edited 2014-10-01 14:26:45]
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Flighty
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Wed Oct 01, 2014 9:33 pm

It was just a few years ago that DL retired the 747-200B. I see N624US was ferried to storage in Nov 2009. She was exactly 30 years old. None of the 744s will make it to 30.
 
wjcandee
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Wed Oct 01, 2014 10:13 pm

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 49):
These aircraft are owned by Wells Fargo Bank, NA.

This comes up from time to time when people look at the registered owner. In fact, Wells Fargo is just the trustee of the equipment trust whose certificates financed the aircraft. It is essentially owned by Delta.
 
Viscount724
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 12:16 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 8):
So, I thought they were parking FOUR of them or are these in addition to those?

Recent article in Aviation Week on 744 retirements by many carriers said DL was retiring three 744s and "parking" one. I assumed that may have meant that the one being parked could potentially be returned to service.
 
tristarcrazy
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:24 am

There was talk at the re-opening of the Delta Flight Museum that 661US would make it to the parking lot along side of the DC9 and 757. The museum folks were talking about taking her "in a few years". Don't think anyone was expecting retirements this year. Hopefully they can make room for her!!!

Will be missing them in ATL!!!
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mayor
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 1:54 am

Quoting tristarcrazy (Reply 63):

And don't forget that one of DL's orginal 747s is now a waterpark in Oregon.  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
deltal1011man
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:08 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 64):
And don't forget that one of DL's orginal 747s is now a waterpark in Oregon.  

really? Got a link mayor? that sounds pretty cool.


I also think that the supper tanker airplane is a Delta 747.
 
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777Jet
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:08 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 18):
6301 will be the 4th ship to be parked.

What is its fate??? Hopefully the last post I quoted is what happens...

Quoting aa777lvr (Reply 48):
Besides being the prototype B744, I believe it also made history as the ship operating NW85 in October 2002.

It sure did. It made Air Crash Investigation  
Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 50):
You have been affectionately known as "The Whale"

I wonder what they would call the A380 if that was in the fleet?

Quoting tristarcrazy (Reply 63):
There was talk at the re-opening of the Delta Flight Museum that 661US would make it to the parking lot along side of the DC9 and 757.

I hope so. I really do...
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UA444
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:15 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 65):
really? Got a link mayor? that sounds pretty cool.

That would be N481EV, which is at the Evergreen Waterpark


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Photo © Ben Wang



The Super Tanker you are referring to is also an ex-DL 747-132.


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n7371f
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:47 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 61):
This comes up from time to time when people look at the registered owner. In fact, Wells Fargo is just the trustee of the equipment trust whose certificates financed the aircraft. It is essentially owned by Delta.

That is not correct always. In fact in most cases WFNWB is used by lessors, not owners.
 
Daysleeper
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 2:56 am

Quoting NC1844V (Reply 46):

Just proves the day's of 4 engines is coming to an end.... Sad to see them go.

Maybe for US airlines, but in Europe, The middle East, Asia and Australia airlines are continuing to take delivery of 4 engined aircraft. Perhaps the fact that even with tighter security post 9/11 only 30% of American's have passports compared to over 70% of Europeans.

I was wondering the other day after watching Real Time with Bill Maher who was making the point that the USA is the only first world nation whose workers don't have a legal right to paid vacation what impact such a law would have on the US airlines - I bet it would be huge for both domestic and international demand.
 
32andBelow
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 3:08 am

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 69):

national airlines don't always need to worry about clearing a ton of profit (if any). US airlines do not have this luxury as there is NO US national carrier. They will buy the planes that make the most sense financially.
 
Daysleeper
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:24 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 70):
national airlines don't always need to worry about clearing a ton of profit (if any). US airlines do not have this luxury as there is NO US national carrier. They will buy the planes that make the most sense financially.

I must be missing something here, but are you saying European airlines have to buy Airbus because they are made in Europe? Or only US based airlines have to make money? I mean either statement is utterly ridiculous but if you could clarify what you mean it would be appreciated.
 
32andBelow
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:28 am

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 71):

I am saying large 4 engine airlines don't fit into american carriers plans due to the need for financial efficiencies. If 4 engine airplanes would make money for US carriers, they would buy them, flat out. I am stating that many non-US countries have a single flag carrier that has significant backing from the government.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:44 am

Quoting ThomasMTroxell (Reply 15):
These 747s will be retired. I'm sure at their young age and low cycle count they'll get some use as a freighter.

   As already noted the 747BCF market is dead. There are examples available that wouldn't require investing in the conversion. as noted:

Quoting BiggerJetsPlz (Reply 17):
744 freighter conversions are deader than dead. There's no chance these frames will be converted to freighters

  

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 49):
These aircraft are owned by Wells Fargo Bank, NA. Maybe this is a ploy to get them to lower the lease rates since no one seems to want to buy them.

These are in short term storage and can be made flyable in about 6 days.

Maybe... we can hope. But of the pilots are being retired... then DL is moving on. Fuel is just too high of a fraction of the cost of flying. An A333HGW will carry a passenger for far less than a 744.

Lightsaber
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wjcandee
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:57 am

Quoting n7371f (Reply 68):
In fact in most cases WFNWB is used by lessors, not owners.

Technically-correct, because there's no need for a trustee if the airline holds title to the aircraft. But I think the poster to whom I responded, in talking about getting "better lease terms" if the aircraft isn't in high demand on the resale market, was thinking about a true lease.

My response to the poster, in talking about the aircraft being "owned" by Delta, was intended to include ownership through a capital lease, which is in essence a secured loan. It is certainly treated as a form of "ownership" for accounting purposes.

An operating lease, in contrast, is what most people think of as a lease -- it's a long-term rental with the asset returned to the lessors at the end of lease.

An equipment trust is one traditional form of aircraft financing. The trust buys the aircraft and leases it to the airline, with the airline taking title to the aircraft at the end. Because the asset isn't "owned" by the airline in the strictest sense, it isn't considered an "asset" for bankruptcy purposes, and by purchasing Equipment Trust Certificates, investors can loan money to the airline to buy an aircraft without the aircraft being an asset subject to the claims of general creditors in a bankruptcy. A trust needs a trustee. That's what Wells Fargo and other institutional trustees do. They don't typically themselves act as lessors.

Because the aircraft goes to the airline at the end of the "lease" from the equipment trust, it meets one of the four tests of a capital lease. (The others being, if anyone cares, any of the following: a lease term greater than 75% of the asset's useful life, PV of the lease payments greater than 90% of market value at time of purchase, or a right to purchase for less than market value at end of lease term.)

In an operating lease, in contrast, the aircraft is often owned by a partnership. Sometimes, the partnership holds title in the name of a trust with a trustee, but often you will see the name of the partnership or JV on the title.

Of the 16 747-400s at Delta as of 12/31/13, 4 were owned outright, 9 were on capital leases, and only 3 were on operating leases.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:50 am

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 74):
Technically-correct, because there's no need for a trustee if the airline holds title to the aircraft. But I think the poster to whom I responded, in talking about getting "better lease terms" if the aircraft isn't in high demand on the resale market, was thinking about a true lease.

My response to the poster, in talking about the aircraft being "owned" by Delta, was intended to include ownership through a capital lease, which is in essence a secured loan. It is certainly treated as a form of "ownership" for accounting purposes.

An operating lease, in contrast, is what most people think of as a lease -- it's a long-term rental with the asset returned to the lessors at the end of lease.

An equipment trust is one traditional form of aircraft financing. The trust buys the aircraft and leases it to the airline, with the airline taking title to the aircraft at the end. Because the asset isn't "owned" by the airline in the strictest sense, it isn't considered an "asset" for bankruptcy purposes, and by purchasing Equipment Trust Certificates, investors can loan money to the airline to buy an aircraft without the aircraft being an asset subject to the claims of general creditors in a bankruptcy. A trust needs a trustee. That's what Wells Fargo and other institutional trustees do. They don't typically themselves act as lessors.

Because the aircraft goes to the airline at the end of the "lease" from the equipment trust, it meets one of the four tests of a capital lease. (The others being, if anyone cares, any of the following: a lease term greater than 75% of the asset's useful life, PV of the lease payments greater than 90% of market value at time of purchase, or a right to purchase for less than market value at end of lease term.)

In an operating lease, in contrast, the aircraft is often owned by a partnership. Sometimes, the partnership holds title in the name of a trust with a trustee, but often you will see the name of the partnership or JV on the title.

Of the 16 747-400s at Delta as of 12/31/13, 4 were owned outright, 9 were on capital leases, and only 3 were on operating leases.

Interesting information..........Thank you......   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 5:52 pm

[/quote]

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 75):
Quoting wjcandee (Reply 74):Technically-correct, because there's no need for a trustee if the airline holds title to the aircraft. But I think the poster to whom I responded, in talking about getting "better lease terms" if the aircraft isn't in high demand on the resale market, was thinking about a true lease.

My response to the poster, in talking about the aircraft being "owned" by Delta, was intended to include ownership through a capital lease, which is in essence a secured loan. It is certainly treated as a form of "ownership" for accounting purposes.

An operating lease, in contrast, is what most people think of as a lease -- it's a long-term rental with the asset returned to the lessors at the end of lease.

An equipment trust is one traditional form of aircraft financing. The trust buys the aircraft and leases it to the airline, with the airline taking title to the aircraft at the end. Because the asset isn't "owned" by the airline in the strictest sense, it isn't considered an "asset" for bankruptcy purposes, and by purchasing Equipment Trust Certificates, investors can loan money to the airline to buy an aircraft without the aircraft being an asset subject to the claims of general creditors in a bankruptcy. A trust needs a trustee. That's what Wells Fargo and other institutional trustees do. They don't typically themselves act as lessors.

Because the aircraft goes to the airline at the end of the "lease" from the equipment trust, it meets one of the four tests of a capital lease. (The others being, if anyone cares, any of the following: a lease term greater than 75% of the asset's useful life, PV of the lease payments greater than 90% of market value at time of purchase, or a right to purchase for less than market value at end of lease term.)

In an operating lease, in contrast, the aircraft is often owned by a partnership. Sometimes, the partnership holds title in the name of a trust with a trustee, but often you will see the name of the partnership or JV on the title.

Of the 16 747-400s at Delta as of 12/31/13, 4 were owned outright, 9 were on capital leases, and only 3 were on operating leases.

VERY good information. I have always wondered about the different types of leases and was curious when I read that an aircraft was "purchased" off lease. I thought maybe they got it for residual value or for $1.00 or some such thing.

I looked up the owner of N676 and it is a single person--perhaps as a trustee? I know my own home mortgage lists two persons as trustees.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
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mayor
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Thu Oct 02, 2014 8:28 pm

Quoting tristarcrazy (Reply 63):
There was talk at the re-opening of the Delta Flight Museum that 661US would make it to the parking lot along side of the DC9 and 757. The museum folks were talking about taking her "in a few years". Don't think anyone was expecting retirements this year. Hopefully they can make room for her!!!

Not to go off on much of a tangent (just momentarily) but I read (or heard) somewhere that the museum may be looking at purchasing Elvis "Lisa Marie" which is an original DL CV880.


Ok....back to DL's 747s.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
tristarcrazy
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:59 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 77):
Not to go off on much of a tangent (just momentarily) but I read (or heard) somewhere that the museum may be looking at purchasing Elvis "Lisa Marie" which is an original DL CV880.

Oh I will go off with you for a moment....she is still for sale!!

http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=1334219

I will investigate. Maybe we will get lucky and the museum will get both....CV880 and 744!!

Concourse F is looking bland today without the 744!! It's almost like the 2001 end of Tristars!
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wjcandee
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:09 am

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 76):
I have always wondered about the different types of leases and was curious when I read that an aircraft was "purchased" off lease. I thought maybe they got it for residual value or for $1.00 or some such thing.

It could be either of those (some capital leases have a low purchase price at the end, although, as I mentioned, with equipment trusts it's common for the airline simply to take title at the end). It could also be someone buying the aircraft from the lessor when it comes off an operating lease to another airline, for example.

I am always interested in how CFOs of big corporations will invest the company's assets. Many people were suprised to find that a big part of Delta's MD11 fleet wasn't titled to Delta. Some of the MD11 leases required return of the aircraft in pristine condition (more legally-defined, of course) at the end of the lease. After Delta withdrew their MD11s from service, the resale market for MD11s had tanked, and the lessors realized that they would prefer a long future stream of payments from financially-sound Delta rather than to negotiate a lease termination with an asset of highly-indeterminate value.

Interestingly, the two big lessors of MD11s to DL were subsidiaries of Mutual of Omaha and -- surprisingly to most people -- of Disney. Delta just bit the bullet, parked the aircraft on a mothballing program, and waited for the leases to run out, all the while paying the monthly payments. When the freighter market picked up, and FedEx and UPS were buying up every MD11 they could get their hands on, Delta couldn't participate, because the aircraft had to be returned to the lessors as passenger aircraft. And given that the market price of the aircraft as freighters was still below the price on which DL's leases were crafted, it still behooved the owners to leave the aircraft parked and receive Delta's check. Delta was able to defray some of the expense by subleasing three of the aircraft to World on operating leases with an escape clause in the event that the aircraft were sold, but still at a monthly price much below the price that Delta in turn had to pay their lessors.

By the time DL had declared bankruptcy, it had already sold the few MD11s to which it had actually held title, for use as freighters. On the first list of leases to be rejected in bankruptcy were the MD11s -- the subleases to World were rejected and the leases from Disney and Mutual of Omaha were rejected. Almost immediately, the lessors retook possession of the aircraft and disposed of them by selling them to UPS and FedEx at market value. As slots for conversion of those aircraft were not immediately available, UPS cut a deal with World to continue leasing the three formerly-subleased aircraft to World until the conversion slots came up, and put them at the back of the line for conversion. Ultimately, World let them go and they are now freighters.

Just one example of how all these deals can work...
 
BiggerJetsPlz
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:27 am

The poor aircraft are the real victims. Like children in a divorce.   

Meanwhile old N661US isn't done yet. She's flying the initial 744 upgauge of ULH route DTW -> PVG (DAL 582/583) as I type. Go grandma!

[Edited 2014-10-02 22:30:29]
 
UA444
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:13 am

If N661US is indeed retire to the DL museum, it really should be in NW colors.
 
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KGRB
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:14 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 81):
If N661US is indeed retire to the DL museum, it really should be in NW colors.

If they weren't willing to repaint the museum's DC-9-51 into NW (or NC or RC) livery, I doubt they would repaint a 744. It would be nice to see N661US in the bowling shoe scheme one more time, though!
First flight: NW DC-10 MKE-MSP December 1996
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cjg225
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:15 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 79):

How do you come about all this knowledge?? That's all pretty specific stuff and doesn't seem like something that would normally be easy to come about.

I had Secured Transactions and Aviation Law in law school and enjoyed them, but since I don't practice, I've lost a lot of it. lol I am trying to follow what you're saying and some of it I remember, but not a lot of it.

[Edited 2014-10-03 16:16:29]
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Cadet985
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:59 am

If anyone hears anything about N665US, can someone please inbox me? That was one of the first models I purchased, and was actually the first Delta 744 I flew on.

Marc
 
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AirAfreak
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:01 am

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 57):

Quoting airafreak (Reply 34):
and now I hope to see at least a 747 equipment swap for our usual LAX-ATL Thanksgiving Weekend services.

I've seen people go on and on about a supposed Delta 744 service during Thanksgiving, but never any solid proof. What day are you referring to, Friday the 28th, Saturday the 29th, or Sunday the 30th? I don't care if the ticket costs an absurd sum, I'd need to be on that flight!   

Yes, I know it's an equipment swap and you can't tell the exact day or flight. However, some insight into what has been the most-equipment-swapped-to-744 date would be highly helpful on Thanksgiving weekend.

-LPDAL

I live in Los Angeles, therefore, I follow the DL Schedules quite closely via delta.com in the month of November and see at least one scheduled 744 service on the Sunday after Thanksgiving. Last year, there were two scheduled ATL-LAX-ATL along with the single A330, x2 777, and numerous 767 services. Either last year or the year before, DL operated a 744 service via DTW to LAX, too.

As far as normal operations, you can always (well, not much longer) find DL283/DL284 to Narita operated by a 747 until it switches to 777 services. As of a few weeks ago, there is also a 747 flight NRT-TPE. Why not make a trip to Asia?

If you are willing to spend more money (and earn some miles), I would suggest booking DTW-ICN-DTW as this one of the longer 747 flights DL operates within its' system. The service is very nice and the food is great! You also get to experience wonderful inflight service from the Korean-Speakers that is very attentive and always with a smile  

In any case, I would suggest Seat 77K as this is THE perfect seat in my personal experience. Also, Seat 5E is really nice, too!

Bon Voyage,

AirAfreak  
Korean Air | Excellence in Flight.
 
asaad11
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:56 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 81):

Do you think they could do half DL livery and NW livery like the former NW DC-10 that was half NW livery and half KLM livery?
 
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777Jet
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Sun Oct 05, 2014 11:25 am

Quoting UA444 (Reply 81):
If N661US is indeed retire to the DL museum, it really should be in NW colors.

That plane is a legend in my books... The prototype 744... Survivor of NW85... And still going strong... I hope it is treated well in retirement...
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
bennett123
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:35 pm

What happened to NW85?.
 
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777Jet
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:39 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 88):
What happened to NW85?.

N661US survived a Lower rudder hardover:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Airlines_Flight_85

Flight NW85 was made into an Air Crash Investigation episode too - and N661US is still flying  

[Edited 2014-10-05 06:41:37]

[Edited 2014-10-05 06:42:35]
DC10-10/30,MD82/88/90, 717,727,732/3/4/5/7/8/9ER,742/4,752/3,763/ER,772/E/L/3/W,788/9, 306,320,321,332/3,346,359,388
 
bennett123
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:26 pm

Wow, must have been pretty scary.
 
spyglass
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:31 pm

I wonder if DL (and several other carriers) finally came to grips with what Bob Crandall said yrs ago.....two engines is enough. That 3d CF6 on the -10's & -11's was their ending w/AA. He only kept the -SP's for a short time as nothing else available at that capacity level was available that wd reach NRT. No US carriers will ever have other than twins henceforth, and it'll be interesting to c how the foreign lines do with the -8's and deux pont Airbusses in the long run. (Of course, their labor costs are much lower than US carriers, so maint may not be as big an issue). That sed, it is a shame that the 74 population is diminishing so quickly....but I felt that way about the big 3holers and all the 1st & 2d gen jets, and even pjets like the V's, Electras, f-27's et al. Sigh.
I remember when......a plane trip was a big deal.
 
johnclipper
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:23 pm

can't forget the original livery on 6601 and 6602...

https://www.airliners.net/photo/North...d=eb0b401115cea471ee0525d3232a2b96
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
MIflyer12
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:03 pm

Quoting spyglass (Reply 91):
I wonder if DL (and several other carriers) finally came to grips with what Bob Crandall said yrs ago.....two engines is enough.

Delta 'got it' years ago - witness the retirements of the MD-11s a decade ago.

Sometimes mergers bring facilities, equipment and networks that need to be rationalized into a new whole. It can take a while. Aircraft + spares are very long-lived and expensive assets.

[Edited 2014-10-05 09:03:22]
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:52 pm

Its not the mantra "two engines is enough" but instead it is an expensive aircraft to operate that has very limited use in the network. 744s can move a lot of people at a very attractive CASM, but they require a lot of people paying an attractive RASM to be profitable. The problem is there just are so few routes where the math works out. The 744 can easily lose a lot of money if they cannot be filled.

DL, like others have found, they can capture the majority of the demand on smaller aircraft. The new thinking in the industry is that they do not mind spilling marketshare, especially that share that is on the fringe of profitability.
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:32 pm

661US is a beast. It definitely should be put into the DL museum in NW colors. That would be a fantastic nod to the Northwest folks. (and it would look amazing)
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
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DocLightning
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:03 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 94):
Its not the mantra "two engines is enough" but instead it is an expensive aircraft to operate that has very limited use in the network.

It's a bit of both. Part of the reason it's expensive to operate is the fact that it has four engines that need to be maintained. A 77W is less expensive to operate, in part, because it has two fewer engines.

Quoting spyglass (Reply 91):

I wonder if DL (and several other carriers) finally came to grips with what Bob Crandall said yrs ago.....two engines is enough.

DL was well aware of this, as are most other airlines. And, for that matter, OEMs. The A380 and 748 are the only two quads in production. All other jet airliners are twins. But at the time the 744 was purchased by NW and UA, ETOPS wasn't what it is today and engines big enough to offer that kind of long-range performance didn't exist.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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mayor
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Mon Oct 06, 2014 1:55 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 96):
Quoting spyglass (Reply 91):

I wonder if DL (and several other carriers) finally came to grips with what Bob Crandall said yrs ago.....two engines is enough.

DL was well aware of this, as are most other airlines. And, for that matter, OEMs. The A380 and 748 are the only two quads in production. All other jet airliners are twins. But at the time the 744 was purchased by NW and UA, ETOPS wasn't what it is today and engines big enough to offer that kind of long-range performance didn't exist.

I'm sure that DL and the other carriers didn't need Crandall to tell them this. DL had no quad widebodies when they stopped operations with the 747-132s in about '77 and didn't get any more for another 31 years when they acquired the -400s in the NW merger. Now, they had triples, but those were on their way out when they took delivery of the 777s.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Tue Oct 14, 2014 7:50 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 81):






If N661US is indeed retire to the DL museum, it really should be in NW colors.
Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 95):
661US is a beast. It definitely should be put into the DL museum in NW colors. That would be a fantastic nod to the Northwest folks. (and it would look amazing)

I have to agree that N661US should be painted in NW colors upon retirement but I am not entirely sure that it will end up at the museum. Even parked, it would still require upkeep and painting at considerable expense.

Knowing the Delta pride they would leave it in DL colors should they decide to keep it. But it sure takes up a lot of space.
Qualified on Concorde/B707/B720/B727/B737/B747/B757/B767/B777/DC-8/DC-9/DC-10/A319/A320/A330/MD-88-90
 
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Boeing717200
Posts: 1926
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RE: 3 DL 747's Retire

Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:12 pm

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 69):
Perhaps the fact that even with tighter security post 9/11 only 30% of American's have passports compared to over 70% of Europeans.


If we needed a passport to go to the next state, 70% of Americans would also have passports. Boasting about European passport acquisition rates is like a US citizen bragging about having visited all 50 states or collecting a patch from all 59 National Parks.

Quoting spyglass (Reply 91):
I wonder if DL (and several other carriers) finally came to grips with what Bob Crandall said yrs ago.....two engines is enough.


DL dumped everything with two engines when they unloaded the L-1011s and MD-11s. Delta has probably been looking for a reason to dump the 747s since the day they merged with NW.
240 years and the top two candidates are named Dumb and Dumber. Stay classy!

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