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Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Tue Sep 30, 2014 10:54 pm

Please continue here.

Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space (by worldflight Sep 29 2014 in Civil Aviation)

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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:28 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 2070):
Unless you mean "… Close the airport to part 121 passenger operations…" Then you could not be more wrong; Dallas Love Field is a vital part of the aviation infrastructure and the Dallas business community, completely separate and apart from airline operations. I recognize that this is "Airliners.net," and everyone cares mostly about airliners, but all those "other" airports matter, as well, and the many aviation businesses and jobs at Love Field have been and continue to be critically important to our economy. In any event, closing the airport completely has never been a meaningful consideration, at least not among rational people who care about the city of Dallas and its people.

This is very true as there is a ton of Part 135 ops that takes place at DAL. Similar role that HOU plays for Houston.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:07 am

I hate these multi-part threads because the quote function no longer works which kind of wrecks things.

Anyway, regarding my posts of the least competitive airports in the world, the U.S. does not have the only cities in the world with multiple airports, but it does have the least competitive second airports and the least competitive airports overall. That's pretty sad isn't it? For all the complaints about slots at LHR and such it would appear that their system has resulted in assets being spread among far more carriers than in the USA. DAL is the worst example of them all.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:14 am

HOU, MDW, and OAK all have empty gates, start yourself an airline and dilute those airports a bit to satisfy your need to see competition in them. Now, how about ATL, the largest airport in the world controlled by 1 airline with over 80% of the traffic. ATL, with only one airport and the largest in the world is essentially monopolized by 1 airline. I'd say that's more of an issue than an airport in a city with more than one airport and the 167th largest airport in the world dominated by one airline when there is another airport ~15 miles away.
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:28 am

I'm just looking forward to seeing more flights and different colors flying over my home in east Dallas. Do I wish that a truly free market was able to allow as many airlines and types of a/c as humanly possible flying out of DAL? Of course I do! But I'll take whatever additions we can get.
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:52 am

The issue is how could the city of Dallas prevent WN from service at DAL while leaving it open for GA traffic if WN was not a signatory to the original agreement?
I can't believe that the GA traffic in 1974 was so huge that they would put their investment in DFW at risk?

The issue for WN now is that anyone looking at the current situation will see one airline having 16 gates and everyone else 4, the history to most will be irrelevant, at a glance it does not look good.
My opinion is that WN should have continued pushing for full abolishment, time will tell if this last compromise was a mistake.
The city will push hard to maintain the 20 gate limit, that will leave WN with DFW or .............
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:20 am

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 3):
Now, how about ATL, the largest airport in the world controlled by 1 airline with over 80% of the traffic. ATL, with only one airport and the largest in the world is essentially monopolized by 1 airline. I'd say that's more of an issue than an airport in a city with more than one airport and the 167th largest airport in the world dominated by one airline when there is another airport ~15 miles away.

The difference is that ATL is open to all entrants. In fact, it has had five competitive hubs in the past (Eastern, Southern, Air Atlanta, TWA, AirTran/Southwest). The fact is that Delta keeps winning in a competitive marketplace is significantly different than the DAL example. DAL is quite clearly not open to competition. There is literally not a single gate for a new entrant. ATL can, an will, accommodate a new entrant tomorrow.

Regardless, none of this matters that much. As you say, there is another airport 15 miles away. Delta actually does much better at DFW than DAL. The only reason they it matters to them is that they want to be competitive with WN, which will be flying ATL-DAL. Its not the end of the world for Delta, no matter what is said publicly or on a.net.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:03 am

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 3):
HOU, MDW, and OAK all have empty gates, start yourself an airline and dilute those airports a bit to satisfy your need to see competition in them. Now, how about ATL, the largest airport in the world controlled by 1 airline with over 80% of the traffic. ATL, with only one airport and the largest in the world is essentially monopolized by 1 airline. I'd say that's more of an issue than an airport in a city with more than one airport and the 167th largest airport in the world dominated by one airline when there is another airport ~15 miles away.
Quoting jetlanta (Reply 6):
much better at DFW than DAL. The only reason they it matters to them is that they want to be competitive with WN, which will be flying ATL-DAL. Its not the end of the world for Delta, no matter what is said publicly or on a.net.

I agree. As I said in the last thread. I find the whole situation very petty, sneaky, and vindictive on the part of UA. Petty because DAL is not even the main airport for the area. Obviously they're not stupid. They can do it, and they did it. Is there a law, agreement, or regulation saying that DL has to serve DAL? Did UA break a rule on adding service to DAL?
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:10 am

Someone please give me a rundown because reading the other thread is quite hard due to a lot of back-and-forthing.
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:43 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 6):
The difference is that ATL is open to all entrants. In fact, it has had five competitive hubs in the past (Eastern, Southern, Air Atlanta, TWA, AirTran/Southwest).

  

A number of hubs on his list were much more competitive in the past. Look at the concentration at MDW 10-12 years ago, for instance. I don't have the numbers handy, but I suspect TZ was pretty close to WN, if not ahead, in terms of ASMs on the strength of their much larger aircraft size and generally longer stage lengths.
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 11:55 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 5):

I can't believe that the GA traffic in 1974 was so huge that they would put their investment in DFW at risk?

I guess I don't understand your question. If you are suggesting that destroying all of the aviation infrastructure, and the industry and jobs that they supported, by closing Love Field, in order to support the airline-only operations at DFW Airport, you are gravely confused about how aviation works as a business.

Perhaps a bit of context will be helpful.

First of all, at the outset, closure of Love Field was never a meaningful consideration; what you casually dismissed as "GA traffic" is a huge center of business, totally separate and apart from the provision of airline service.

There are, and have been, dozens (perhaps hundreds, though I am too lazy to quantify it now) of aviation-related businesses on the grounds of Love Field, or immediately adjacent thereto and dependent upon Love Field.

Dallas could not have survived closure of Love Field, then, nor could it do so now, without profound harm to its business and economic interests, and to its tax base.

Add to all this, of course, the existing and ongoing obligations the city had to the federal government, to maintain Love Field as a part of the national aviation infrastructure; the city was (and is) precluded by law from closing the airport.

Finally, as regards "GA traffic" itself, DFW Airport has the barest minimum of facilities for general aviation now, and at the time it was opened, it had effectively none (general aviation traffic used Gate 1, and simply parked on the ramp. This was, if I recall correctly, at terminal 2 E).

Closing Love Field was a bad idea then, which is why it was never seriously considered as an option. Closing Love Field is a bad idea now, too, and no one suggests doing so except out of (1) ignorance as to its effects, or (2) self-interest.
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:22 pm

A shame the quote function does't work but I need to address a point back in part 1.

No airline has ever been locked out of ORD due to lack of gate space. VX wasn't...They were given an option to operate at T5 (which is common use domestic and international) VX made a business decision not to use T5 long before they finally got a L gate. Instead they held off for a couple of years cying foul. NK did the exact opposite, when they started at ORD, they took T5 to get their foot in the door.

Air Choice One was given the same opportunity and by the time it worked itself out, DL had moved over to T2.

ORD has a competition plan in place to address issues like this. This is why I asked in part 1 if DAL has a plan in place now.

Back to topic.....It makes me wonder now if this is going to start a tit for tat war among the 4 as time goes on.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:28 pm

Quoting sccutler (Reply 10):
I guess I don't understand your question. If you are suggesting that destroying all of the aviation infrastructure, and the industry and jobs that they supported, by closing Love Field, in order to support the airline-only operations at DFW Airport, you are gravely confused about how aviation works as a business

I am talking about the 1974 to 1978 era.
Deregulation and WN challenge happened, I'm saying that the city of Dallas at the time had the choice to close DAL to prevent WN from operating, even if initially they were only operating intra-state flights, it violated the spirit of the agreement.
When DFW opened DAL was a virtual ghost town as all the other carriers moved their operations, WN in its infancy at the time was the only operator along with any GA traffic.
So far I have been unable to find anything definitive that precluded the city of Dallas from closing the airport or even modifying the runways to prevent large jet a/c operations in that time frame. Even if they closed it totally on a temporary basis while they adjusted it to only accommodate GA traffic, my thought process is that would have been a better option than the initial WA.

Today 40+ years after the fact, closing the airport is not the option I am advocating, today I believe if the current agreement is challenged up to the SCOTUS it will be thrown out on un-competitive grounds.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:31 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 6):
The difference is that ATL is open to all entrants.

True. Although, again, I think the real analog here is not ATL vs DAL, but ATL vs DFW. And I suspect that if Delta and ATL were (have been) in the same position as AA and DFW, they would (and have) acted in pretty much the same way.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 6):
Regardless, none of this matters that much. As you say, there is another airport 15 miles away. Delta actually does much better at DFW than DAL. The only reason they it matters to them is that they want to be competitive with WN, which will be flying ATL-DAL.

Yes. Again - in the scheme of things for a company the size of Delta, this is less than small potatoes.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 10):
DFW Airport has the barest minimum of facilities for general aviation now

DFW has an extremely nice general aviation facility. It is certainly small, compared to DAL - which probably handles more GA movements than anything else - but hardly "barest minimum."

Quoting sccutler (Reply 10):
Closing Love Field was a bad idea then, which is why it was never seriously considered as an option. Closing Love Field is a bad idea now, too, and no one suggests doing so except out of (1) ignorance as to its effects, or (2) self-interest.

Agreed. Personally, I've never been an advocate of "closing" Love Field - as it putting holes in the runway and bulldozing the buildings, a la Meigs. On the other hand, I have been and remain an advocate of closing Love Field to scheduled airline traffic and consolidating all of that traffic at DFW. Closing Love entirely is not only impractical, but unnecessary.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:53 pm

It didn't help that DL announced expansion plans at DAL. It sent a message to UA INMHO

This clearly caught DL by surprise. They were just assuming there would be room at the inn.

[Edited 2014-10-01 06:15:06]
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 12:55 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 12):
So far I have been unable to find anything definitive that precluded the city of Dallas from closing the airport or even modifying the runways to prevent large jet a/c operations in that time frame. Even if they closed it totally on a temporary basis while they adjusted it to only accommodate GA traffic, my thought process is that would have been a better option than the initial WA.
Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
On the other hand, I have been and remain an advocate of closing Love Field to scheduled airline traffic and consolidating all of that traffic at DFW. Closing Love entirely is not only impractical, but unnecessary.

And DAL would lose all federal funding. That was the issue in the 70's and is still the issue today.
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:10 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 15):
And DAL would lose all federal funding. That was the issue in the 70's and is still the issue today.

True, but in the 70's the city had no indication that WN would be the carrier that it is today, so the question remains, why did they not close or even adjust the airport to prevent WN operations, or is there something somewhere that says the airport and its runways could not be modified? Private jets were in their infancy at that time, the bulk of GA was props.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:30 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 3):

HOU, MDW, and OAK

Are you sure that MDW has gates available? I think the gates you speak of are actually common use and are available only because they can't be leased. I don't know how active their use is.

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 3):
I'd say that's more of an issue than an airport in a city with more than one airport and the 167th largest airport in the world dominated by one airline when there is another airport ~15 miles away.

Of course that airport is also one of the most dominated in the world, but at least there are gates available there. For it to be the most dominated large airport in the world AND for there to be no gates available for anybody else is a travesty. As I said, the rest of the world has more than one airport in a city and they haven't allowed this to happen.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 6):
The fact is that Delta keeps winning in a competitive marketplace is significantly different than the DAL example. DAL is quite clearly not open to competition. There is literally not a single gate for a new entrant. ATL can, an will, accommodate a new entrant tomorrow.

I agree.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 7):
Petty because DAL is not even the main airport for the area.

It is the preferred airport if you look at the O&D data where service is equivalent to both.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 9):
A number of hubs on his list were much more competitive in the past. Look at the concentration at MDW 10-12 years ago, for instance. I don't have the numbers handy, but I suspect TZ was pretty close to WN, if not ahead, in terms of ASMs on the strength of their much larger aircraft size and generally longer stage lengths.

The past is kind of irrelevant when it comes to judging whether something is anti-competitive. Just because the largest airline at DCA had 25% of seats in 1982 is not particularly meaningful to whether it is competitive today.

Quoting commavia (Reply 13):
And I suspect that if Delta and ATL were (have been) in the same position as AA and DFW, they would (and have) acted in pretty much the same way.

100% true, but in either case there should not be a law in place that allows the legal prevention of competition to benefit two airlines over all the others. These assets are taxpayer assets, not a private company's. For a law to be put into place to eliminate access to competition is akin to signing a law to only allow UPS trucks on I-10 and block everybody else. It's a travesty. Sure ,there are other roads (airports) that are nearly as convenient, but it is still a ridiculous perversion of the free market system.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:46 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
Sure ,there are other roads (airports) that are nearly as convenient, but it is still a ridiculous perversion of the free market system.

That is why I generally dislike little commercial airports close to city centers as infrastructure pieces. They are subject to capacity limits, sometimes physical, sometimes a result of their surroundings. It is real difficult to create a market-based access system. Perimeter-based rules are not a bad idea, neither are limitations on number of operations or aircraft size.

In the case of a gate cap, the airport operator should be adjusting gate lease fees up above inflation every year until gate availability shows.
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:46 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
These assets are taxpayer assets, not a private company's.

That's the issue. Gates around the US can very much be the asset of a single airline for all practical purposes. It's a very flawed system that leads to inefficiencies but that's the system the US has.

Case in point : 2 gates allowing 16 flights. Airline A wants 11 flights and Airline B only wants 5 flights.

In a shared gate scenario, the 2 gates can easily accomodate both A and B, maximizing gate utlization while satisfying both A and B. This is how most airports globally operate.

In the exclusive gate scenario (like most US airports), 2 options are presented :

Option 1
Airline A owns 1 gate, and can only operate 8 out of 11 flights
Airline B owns 1 gate, and has 3 "slots" wasted

Option 2 (this is UA+DL at DAL)
Airline A owns both gates, and has 5 "slots" wasted
Airline B owns zero gates, and can't operate anything
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:57 pm

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 7):
. I find the whole situation very petty, sneaky, and vindictive on the part of UA. Petty because DAL is not even the main airport for the area. Obviously they're not stupid. They can do it, and they did it. Is there a law, agreement, or regulation saying that DL has to serve DAL? Did UA break a rule on adding service to DAL?


Maybe that is all true that UA is changing the scheduled to screw DL, but it does not mean they did anything illegal.
They have the rights to use the gates however they want, they properly own the rights to the gates. They have every right to use them how they wish.

DL subleased the AA gates and those are no longer AA gates when VX takes them over. So DL's gates are gone.
DL hoped that VX, SW and UA would 'let' them in and operate the schedule they posted, but they must not have had an agreement to do so. Bad move by DL, now they have to deal with the customers that bought tickets for flights DL can't operate now.

I bet if DL went to UA and said we will give you access to one of our T gates for the 2 gates at DAL. Maybe UA would have said sure, but I don't think DL wants to do that. My point, DL had options but did nothing.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:09 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 19):
That's the issue. Gates around the US can very much be the asset of a single airline for all practical purposes. It's a very flawed system that leads to inefficiencies but that's the system the US has.

The DOT/FAA has made clear that airports should not enter into exclusive gate leases and most are now "preferential" gate leases. That is an improvement, but I think the FAA/DOT needs to step in further and dictate maximum turn length and gap between flights for preferential leases, otherwise it can still be manipulated.

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 20):
Maybe that is all true that UA is changing the scheduled to screw DL

They are. Uniform 90 minute turns are not cost-effective and do not maximize connectivity for the customer so they only exist to block the gates.

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 20):
but it does not mean they did anything illegal

United did not and DL would have done the same. The problem is that the system (Wright Amendment rewrite plus weak pro-competition rules) has allowed this situation. Bottom line, they should not have torn down gates at DAL for the explicit reason of limiting service to DAL.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:18 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
Quoting klwright69 (Reply 7):
Petty because DAL is not even the main airport for the area.

It is the preferred airport if you look at the O&D data where service is equivalent to both.

Yeah but don't you think those numbers are skewed based on the WA?
No other airport in the USA has those restrictions so it is a unique case. It can also be a boon to the statisticians, especially since thru ticketing only started around 2006 or so, how far back are the stats that you are looking at?
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 2:32 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
That is an improvement, but I think the FAA/DOT needs to step in further and dictate maximum turn length and gap between flights for preferential leases, otherwise it can still be manipulated.

Agreed, but are there really that many examples (besides this one) of manipulation to shut out competition?

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
The past is kind of irrelevant when it comes to judging whether something is anti-competitive.

It is and it isn't. Being big isn't illegal or anti-competitive. Taking certain actions to make yourself big is. But when there are not barriers to entry and someone nevertheless becomes big by legal means, that's not illegal. This is the situation and HOU and MDW, not so much at DAL (or some other places, like DCA).
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:25 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 6):
DAL is quite clearly not open to competition. There is literally not a single gate for a new entrant.

This is the part that disturbs me. DOJ wants AA to divest some gates. Two of them are at DAL, where DL subleases them. The gov't. wants those gates to accomodate VX. Whether or not the DOJ, directly, is kicking DL out (thru the City of Dallas), that is the affect it is having. They are putting in VX and removing DL and why? Because they determined that DL could not apply for the gates because they didn't meet the requirements, even though DL was already operating at the airport.

Is this, more or less, about what the situation is?


It seems to me that the City of Dallas, removed some of the gates to deliberately constrain competition and, in turn, help WN maintain control of the airport.
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:34 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 24):
Is this, more or less, about what the situation is?

Could also be payback for de-hubbing DFW a few years ago???

Quoting mayor (Reply 24):
It seems to me that the City of Dallas, removed some of the gates to deliberately constrain competition and, in turn, help WN maintain control of the airport.

Or they created / allowed the situation (new WA) so that someone will challenge it in court based on how it looks and once again attempt to get WN out of the DAL - Conspiracy hat on -
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:45 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 24):
It seems to me that the City of Dallas, removed some of the gates to deliberately constrain competition and, in turn, help WN maintain control of the airport.

Not to mention, Delta flew its first route in 1934 from Dallas to Jackson. They've been at that airport twice as long as SWA has been around.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:01 pm

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 26):
Not to mention, Delta flew its first route in 1934 from Dallas to Jackson. They've been at that airport twice as long as SWA has been around.

So we ask the question again, why was DL not assisting WN in trying to get the WA abolished, and when the compromise was worked out over 8 years ago, they essentially stayed silent?
Yes they may have been in chpt.11 but isn't the whole point of chpt.11 that the airline continues to operate as normal while they work on re-structuring finances?
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:05 pm

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 26):
Not to mention, Delta flew its first route in 1934 from Dallas to Jackson. They've been at that airport twice as long as SWA has been around

Let's not be ridiculous - DL left DAL and dehubbed DFW. Ever since WN has existed, it has continuously served DAL, no matter the laws and regulations. Now that the WA is gone, DL would love to come back to the table to reap all the benefits WN fought for and did the leg work for.

DL knowingly subleased gates from AA that were set to expire in 2014 and were unable to find a solution or broker a deal. Time for them to move on to bigger problems.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:08 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 27):
So we ask the question again, why was DL not assisting WN in trying to get the WA abolished, and when the compromise was worked out over 8 years ago, they essentially stayed silent?
Yes they may have been in chpt.11 but isn't the whole point of chpt.11 that the airline continues to operate as normal while they work on re-structuring finances?

Why would they have? Lets face it, SWA was built on taking advantage of a loophole in the law. They've been fighting to get around the laws competitors have had to live with to gain a competitive advantage for their entire existence. The region wanted a big international airport and needed tenants to fund it. The understanding was that DAL wouldn't be used for commercial service and all the carriers were forced to move (dead horse). Once it became apparent that it would remain and not have any restrictions the game changed.

[Edited 2014-10-01 09:17:47]
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:17 pm

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 29):
Why would they have? Lets face it, SWA was built on taking advantage of a loophole in the law. The region wanted a big international airport and needed tenants to fund it. The understanding was that DAL wouldn't be used for commercial service and all the carriers were forced to move (dead horse). Once it became apparent that it would remain and not have any restrictions the game changed.

Those points are valid for the 1970's but not in 2006. I believe WN publicly lashed out against the WA in 2004 with the final compromise coming in 2006. Where was DL for those 2 years?
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:18 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 25):

Could also be payback for de-hubbing DFW a few years ago???

Absolutely. They say business is business, but when you massively dehub and cut jobs and impact the local economy, the locals will remember that next time you ask for a business favor.

Quoting Dallas (Reply 28):
DL would love to come back to the table to reap all the benefits WN fought for and did the leg work for.

Sounds awfully like DL/AS as well. AS spent decades building up a base in SEA for DL/AA, then DL comes and snatches that FF base away.
 
surfdog75
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:24 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 30):
Those points are valid for the 1970's but not in 2006. I believe WN publicly lashed out against the WA in 2004 with the final compromise coming in 2006. Where was DL for those 2 years?

Again, why would DL, or any other carrier fight to help a competitor that has a stranglehold on all the assets at DAL? SWA fought the existing laws from the beginning to gain a competitive advantage. Once the law was changed however, all those affected should have been accommodated. It's not a huge deal for DL, just an example of cronyism at its worst.
 
Dallas
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:33 pm

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 32):
Again, why would DL, or any other carrier fight to help a competitor that has a stranglehold on all the assets at DAL? SWA fought the existing laws from the beginning to gain a competitive advantage. Once the law was changed however, all those affected should have been accommodated. It's not a huge deal for DL, just an example of cronyism at its worst.

Had DL shown interest back then, I'm sure the agreement could have been for 22-24 gates instead of 20 to facilitate DL. Same can be said at that time for other carriers such as F9, B5, AS, etc.

DL knew back in 2006 what the proposed new landscape would be for DAL and did nothing to fight it then or at anytime until the last year. I can understand why VX was awarded the gates and had an argument because they didn't even exist back in 2006.
 
ordbosewr
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:47 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 33):
DL knew back in 2006 what the proposed new landscape would be for DAL and did nothing to fight it then or at anytime until the last year.

Let's be fair to DL. the DL today is different today than it was in 2006. DL had not merged with NW and may not have wanted to fight for it, heck they just de-hubed DFW.
For that matter UA didn't have any presence at DAL back in 2006 (CO did), so I think it is hard to make those arguments.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 20):
I bet if DL went to UA and said we will give you access to one of our T gates for the 2 gates at DAL. Maybe UA would have said sure, but I don't think DL wants to do that. My point, DL had options but did nothing.

....probably not as UA already is building out their end of the T gates at ATL in order to accommodate their entire operation.

Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
United did not and DL would have done the same.

Indeed...remember when DL went after UAs unused route authorities to Brazil or consolidating NW/DL at ORD in T2 instead of the L concourse (effective in blocking UA from getting more gates.) Sometimes I think people on here forget that the airlines are competitors and while the best business deals are those where both sides gets something that they want. That doesn't always have to be the case....
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jetblue1965
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:04 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 35):

Indeed...remember when DL went after UAs unused route authorities to Brazil or consolidating NW/DL at ORD in T2 instead of the L concourse (effective in blocking UA from getting more gates.) Sometimes I think people on here forget that the airlines are competitors and while the best business deals are those where both sides gets something that they want. That doesn't always have to be the case....

And the whole HND fiasco. DL wasted valuable time and resources on a failed DTW-HND and a very much suffering SEA-HND instead of letting other airlines have a chance.
 
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 24):
They are putting in VX and removing DL and why? Because they determined that DL could not apply for the gates because they didn't meet the requirements, even though DL was already operating at the airport.

....IIRC DL, WN and VX all tried to get AAs gates at DAL....they ultimately were awarded to VX. Using the UA gates was DLs plan B which clearly didn't work out so well for DL.
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mayor
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting Dallas (Reply 28):
DL would love to come back to the table to reap all the benefits WN fought for and did the leg work for.

And what "benefits" would those be? Lack of gates? Poor planning on the city's part?
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peanuts
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:19 pm

I'm not buying any of this speculation of how and why. We're all being played here.
DL clearly knew their boundaries and legal limitations at DAL.
Granted, DL has a few ignorant folks in management, but this is not the kindergarten play as it appears.

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 14):
It didn't help that DL announced expansion plans at DAL. It sent a message to UA INMHO

By design

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 14):
This clearly caught DL by surprise.

Highly doubtful.
If it was by surprise, shame on them for not knowing what is known.

I just don't think DL cares that it sorta locked up UA to pump money into DAL.
Meanwhile they can milk this shut-out for all it's worth, as they focus on bigger potatoes.
 
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mayor
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:25 pm

Quoting peanuts (Reply 39):
Granted, DL has a few ignorant folks in management,

I doubt it. I think they all left when Leo did.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Prost
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:25 pm

The ANet drama seems to be more drama than reality. Dallas customers will be well served, either with or without DL. If UA wants to use their assets in any matter, that is their right. Deltawill still serve customers in the Rea, just at a different airport. More convenient for some, less for others. All parties will survive fine. Even customers will probably be fine, as I can't imagine Delta was offering screaming cheap fares out of DAL.
 
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par13del
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 29):
Why would they have?

To fight a "perceived injustice" (depending on your side of the tracks) as WN did back in 1974 era and again in 2004

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 32):
SWA fought the existing laws from the beginning to gain a competitive advantage.

WN was that powerful and special that they had local politicians create preferred circumstances at DAL just for their operations? Suggest you read the link I posted in the previous thread on the comments by the House Speaker who ushered through the initial WA.

Quoting surfdog75 (Reply 32):
Once the law was changed however, all those affected should have been accommodated.

Well since only AA, CO, WN and the cities of DFW and DAL got involved everyone was accommodated,which other airline was involved and got overlooked? I guess we could say B6 since they did offer a comment or two have to see what UA had to say.

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 34):
For that matter UA didn't have any presence at DAL back in 2006 (CO did), so I think it is hard to make those arguments.

Why not, do you see UA complaining about the situation, heck in their previous incarnation (CO) they did not complain much about being limited to 2 gates like AA so.......

DL is a day late and a dollar short, unfortunately, persons looking at the gate situation today will immediately say un-competitive, I believe this compromise will come back to haunt WN.
 
alfa164
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:30 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 36):
And the whole HND fiasco. DL wasted valuable time and resources on a failed DTW-HND and a very much suffering SEA-HND instead of letting other airlines have a chance.

Every international legacy thought that HND was going to be a great route; and, so far, everybody has been wrong. And all those other airlines "had a chance" to go to Haneda; they presented their proposals, it was the DOT who determined that DL (and AA and HA) offered the best opportunities to extend service to that airport.

It is hard to blame DL for adhering to "conventional wisdom".
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usflyguy
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:41 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 17):
Are you sure that MDW has gates available? I think the gates you speak of are actually common use and are available only because they can't be leased. I don't know how active their use is.

SunCountry and F9 use the 3 gates on C so there is plenty of time between their flights to accommodate quite a few flights.

Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
Bottom line, they should not have torn down gates at DAL for the explicit reason of limiting service to DAL.

One of AA's demands to sign on to the agreement. WN wanted more gates, AA wasn't having it.

Quoting mayor (Reply 24):
It seems to me that the City of Dallas, removed some of the gates to deliberately constrain competition and, in turn, help WN maintain control of the airport.

See above. WN wanted more gates. The more gates that WN had, the more nonstop markets that WN would start in direct competition to AA at DFW and AA did not want the competition so they would not sign on without restrictions on gates...
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Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:44 pm

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 44):
SunCountry and F9 use the 3 gates on C so there is plenty of time between their flights to accommodate quite a few flights.

Yes. A1-A3 are also common use, though they are used somewhat more heavily by Y4, PD and anything else international.

At one point (back when the C gates were leased to CO), one or more of the 757-capable high B gates was common use; I don't know the situation with those today. Moreover, the former C8 bus boarding area (numbered A10 when C8 used it, accessed from a stairway and elevator just beyond the hallway to A4A and A4B) still exists AFAIK.
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enilria
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:50 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 22):
Yeah but don't you think those numbers are skewed based on the WA?

I don't know what that means. In cases where DAL and DFW have had unfettered service, the market has tended to be larger from DAL and actually the fares have often been lower at DFW because the market is not as strong with the core customers. That may now play out in all these markets. I'm not sure why AUS and MCI would be exceptions. I'm also not sure how the WA perverts that in any way in markets that are open from both.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
Agreed, but are there really that many examples (besides this one) of manipulation to shut out competition?

There are plenty of gate and slot shenanigans at DCA, LGA, and JFK. US has been abusing the slot process for years at both LGA and DCA. I've documented all the ways including their former 1/2 shuttle from LGA to PHL and their use of politics to and tiny RJs to block slots at DCA for communities too small to deserve service in a free market in order to limit competition to the bigger markets where they make big profits. There's also tons of slot covering at even JFK. EWR probably as well, although I haven't looked into it.

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 23):
It is and it isn't. Being big isn't illegal or anti-competitive. Taking certain actions to make yourself big is. But when there are not barriers to entry and someone nevertheless becomes big by legal means, that's not illegal.

Even if this situation grew organically... and it didn't...a situation that is not competitive is purely a function of the current situation and DAL is not a competitive situation as things stand now.

Quoting United1 (Reply 35):
Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
United did not and DL would have done the same.

Indeed...remember when DL went after UAs unused route authorities to Brazil or consolidating NW/DL at ORD in T2 instead of the L concourse (effective in blocking UA from getting more gates.) Sometimes I think people on here forget that the airlines are competitors and while the best business deals are those where both sides gets something that they want. That doesn't always have to be the case....

I think you should not blame people or an airline or competitors in a sport from pushing the rules to the limit. That's how you win. I blame the people who make and enforce the rules for creating a system that allows corruption of the free market. The rules should encourage competition and if they don't then there won't be any because competition is not the most profitable system.
 
alfa164
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 5:54 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 46):
I think you should not blame people or an airline or competitors in a sport from pushing the rules to the limit. That's how you win. I blame the people who make and enforce the rules for creating a system that allows corruption of the free market. The rules should encourage competition and if they don't then there won't be any because competition is not the most profitable system.

         Well said.
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klwright69
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:05 pm

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 20):
Maybe that is all true that UA is changing the scheduled to screw DL, but it does not mean they did anything illegal.
They have the rights to use the gates however they want, they properly own the rights to the gates. They have every right to use them how they wish.

It appears I didn't finish my post. UA did nothing improper or illegal. It is just payback.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: Delta Leaves DAL 10/18 Due To No Gate Space Part 2

Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:15 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 46):
Even if this situation grew organically... and it didn't...a situation that is not competitive is purely a function of the current situation and DAL is not a competitive situation as things stand now.

I agree. But you discounted information about MDW being more competitive fairly recently. In 2003-2004, I believe all 6 legacies flew there too.

Quoting enilria (Reply 46):
US has been abusing the slot process for years at both LGA and DCA.

We probably disagree here, but I think someone who has leased an asset has the right to use that asset as he sees fit (within the confines of the lease). Blame the government for the shenanigans, not US.
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