AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

LAXintl · Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:30 pm

With Delta seasonally cutting its SEA-Haneda service this winter, AA is making a play to get the dormant authority reallocated and moved to another gateway.

AA proposes to offer a replacement daily LAX-HND service commencing as early as January 15th, 2015 utilizing 772 equipment.

Proposed schedule:

AA169 LAX-HND 1705-2300
AA170 HND-LAX 0130-1825

OST-2010-0018

Note these are exact flight numbers used on the current Narita service so its pretty clear AA will drop those in favor of HND.

Miami · Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:33 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
AA proposes to offer a replacement daily LAX-HND service commencing as early as January 15th, 2015 utilizing 772 equipment.

Interesting...

I like how AA is competing at a different level now.

Cheers, to the new AA!

MAH4546 · Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:36 pm

No surprise there.

Awesome news.

BoeingGuy · Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:44 pm

Will DL be glad to drop SEA-HND?

LAXintl · Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:48 pm

Problem is the calender works against AA big time.

First the DOT must decide even if it will allow DL to maintain the SEA route in dormancy.

Assuming based on that decision if it finds no, then it would open a route selection with multiple airlines likely again to jump in the pot. I don't think for example that HA will let this go uncontested.

The last HA vs UA battle for the reallocation of AA's JFK-HND slot took essentially 1-year when all was said and done, and that was with AA willingly turning back the slot, not fighting for it like DL will certainly do.

max999 · Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:51 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
AA proposes to offer a replacement daily LAX-HND service commencing as early as January 15th, 2015 utilizing 772 equipment.

Proposed schedule:

AA169 LAX-HND 1705-2300
AA170 HND-LAX 0130-1825

Delta already flies this route daily!

Since there are so few Haneda slots available, there's little value in duplicating an existing route. If I were the DOT, I would see much more value if AA applied for a market that doesn't have a Haneda flight.

[Edited 2014-10-02 14:55:45]

slcdeltarumd11 · Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:54 pm

wow this could really kick delta off LAX-HND also if approved. AA would have all those connections and JAL FF base to feed off of but that didnt seem to help at JFK much. DL is struggling at HND if AA enters the market its gonna bleed even harder. Kind of a crazy move though they were bleeding on JFK-HND also. I wonder if they just want to force delta to keep flying SEA to bleed more or if they want them to leave lax and then go grab lax solo? I cant believe they would want to run next to delta @LAX on this run. This HND nightmare just won't end

jetblue1965 · Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:55 pm

Quoting max999 (Reply 5):

BOTH DL and ANA already fly LAX-HND so this will be the 3rd flight

I heard rumblings of DFW-HND I guess that's not happening

commavia · Thu Oct 02, 2014 9:56 pm

I don't think this has much chance of actually happening, although I agree it would make sense - for AA and JAL - if it did.

Nonetheless, my first reaction to this is that it's yet another reminder that the "new AA" is here, and here to "play," and that it is awesome to once again see the U.S. have a third viable, vigorous competitor willing and able to act quickly and aggressively to respond to market evolution and keep competitors on their toes.

[Edited 2014-10-02 14:56:44]

LAXdude1023 · Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:01 pm

I have a hard time believing it will be successful, but at least theyre trying.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 7):
I heard rumblings of DFW-HND I guess that's not happening

No way. DFW-HND would be terrible.

LAXintl · Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:01 pm

Quoting max999 (Reply 5):
Delta already flies this route daily!

True, but AA I'm sure looks at this from the contex of its JV with JAL which would mean they could offer both a HND and NRT flight from LAX, the same that UA can do today with its NH JV.

Quoting max999 (Reply 5):
Since Haneda slots are so far and few between, there's little value in duplicating an existing route. If I were the DOT, I would see much more value if AA applied for a market that doesn't have an Haneda flight.

The DOT indeed tried that novel idea, but its become clear that the nighttime HND slots likely will only work for a very small number of routes. LAX-Tokyo being the largest US mainland to Japan route, so it seems its this or nothing maybe if they want to keep the route on the mainland for the benefit of US consumers.

LAXintl · Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:03 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 7):
I heard rumblings of DFW-HND I guess that's not happening

Keep an eye on JAL

You heard it here.

max999 · Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:03 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
I don't think this has much chance of actually happening, although I agree it would make sense - for AA and JAL - if it did.

Nonetheless, my first reaction to this is that it's yet another reminder that the "new AA" is here, and here to "play," and that it is awesome to once again see the U.S. have a third viable, vigorous competitor willing and able to act quickly and aggressively to respond to market evolution and keep competitors on their toes.

If there's little chance of it happening, then AA's purpose of this application is just to screw with DL...nicely played AA. haha

MAH4546 · Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:11 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 7):
BOTH DL and ANA already fly LAX-HND so this will be the 3rd flight

If AA were successful in taking this slot, and Delta was left with one Haneda slot, my money is they try to use it from Seattle.

uberflieger · Thu Oct 02, 2014 10:30 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
You heard it here

AA DFW-NRT 1 daily
JL HND-DFW 1 daily
Dude, that would be awesome

PlanesNTrains · Thu Oct 02, 2014 11:02 pm

Quoting max999 (Reply 5):
Delta already flies this route daily!

Since there are so few Haneda slots available, there's little value in duplicating an existing route. If I were the DOT, I would see much more value if AA applied for a market that doesn't have a Haneda flight.

Of course, then we'd be doing the same thing six months from now. Another failed HND route. Another attempted grab. Repeat.

Might as well let them double (or triple) up on LAX-HND and let them serve a market that wants and can support the service.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 13):
If AA were successful in taking this slot, and Delta was left with one Haneda slot, my money is they try to use it from Seattle.

So, in a backdoor way, AA would be taking DL's LAX-HND route (slot).

-Dave

toobz · Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:03 am

With the slots available for US airlines..I say good luck to any airline wanting so desperately to fly the route.

ridgid727 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:27 am

In their OST Filing AA claims DL just wants to sit on the slot.

From the filing----
American Airlines, Inc. respectfully requests the Department to grant this motion to withdraw one daily US-Haneda frequency from Delta Air Lines (Although the Haneda route rights are sometimes referred to as slots, they do not give carriers a right to a specific time of operation, as an airport slot would. In substance, they are a right to operate a daily service, usually referred to as frequencies, and we adopt that terminology here), and to reallocate that frequency to American. Delta just announced that it is reducing its Haneda service for the upcoming winter season. American would use that frequency between Los Angeles and Haneda year-round, service that would be substantially superior to Delta’s near-dormant Seattle-Haneda service. American vigorously opposes any use of these valuable Haneda rights on a seasonal basis, and we stand ready to use them fully on a year-round basis. The Department should not allow Delta to squander these valuable frequencies, which the United States worked hard to obtain, and for which there is unmet demand.

As the Department is aware, the frequency is subject to the condition that it will become dormant and revert automatically to the Department if it is not used for a period of 90 days. The table above shows that Delta plans to operate a daily service for one week every 90 days – just enough to keep the frequency from going dormant and reverting to the Department for reallocation. Out of 182 possible operating days, Delta plans to operate on only 17 days – less than 10 percent of the total days. This limited service provides no consumer benefits.

oc2dc · Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:36 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 6):
Kind of a crazy move though they were bleeding on JFK-HND also.

JFK-HND was a nightmare, but if I recall properly, it also had terrible timing. . . I'm not familiar with what would be good timing for Tokyo-LA flights, but as a tourist, these times seem very odd.

Regardless, I doubt they will get the slot.

C010T3 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:00 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 1):
I like how AA is competing at a different level now.

Cheers, to the new AA!

More power to them! LAX-HND is what should have been allocated to AA in the first place.

enilria · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:13 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
I don't think for example that HA will let this go uncontested.

Yes, but it will be a potent argument that letting another HND slot go to Hawaii service is too much.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
not fighting for it like DL will certainly do.

Not sure they will. SEA is awful, but they won't want AA on LAX.

Quoting max999 (Reply 5):
there's little value in duplicating an existing route.

Well competition is supposed to be a good thing.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 6):

wow this could really kick delta off LAX-HND also if approved.

Exactly. It's a brilliant move by AA. The argument is let it sit unused or let us have it. Then they use it to extinguish DL in LAX completely removing them from HND. I think they have good arguments, although with 3 carriers on LAX that is the hardest one to answer.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 13):
If AA were successful in taking this slot, and Delta was left with one Haneda slot, my money is they try to use it from Seattle.

I doubt it. HNL is where they want it.

airzim · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:15 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 8):
Nonetheless, my first reaction to this is that it's yet another reminder that the "new AA" is here, and here to "play,"

Companies don't act with tag lines. Either there's a market or there's not. Let's not try and make this into a royal rumble.

There's no new "AA." There's a new JV with JL. There's NH and UA JV and there's a lagging DL in Japan. AA/JL are exploiting an opportunity.

Let's not make this more than it is.

aaway · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:34 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 4):
Problem is the calender works against AA big time.

First the DOT must decide even if it will allow DL to maintain the SEA route in dormancy.

Assuming based on that decision if it finds no, then it would open a route selection with multiple airlines likely again to jump in the pot. I don't think for example that HA will let this go uncontested.

Also if AA were to win the authority in an expedited manner, CBP typically requires a bit more lead time for processing requests for landing rights. Assuming a quick blessing by DOT, 3.5 months in advance of launch is an aggressive timetable.

[Edited 2014-10-02 19:10:12]

Thomaas · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:51 am

I wonder if ORD-HND could be done on UA. They have hubs on both ends and it would surely be picked over another LAX-HND route as there is currently no link from HND to the midwest since DL and AA withdrew DTW and JFK.

slcdeltarumd11 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:54 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 13):
If AA were successful in taking this slot, and Delta was left with one Haneda slot, my money is they try to use it from Seattle.

I agree SEA is the pacific gateway if they only have one flight i bet they want SEA. the question is will they be allowed to move it, delta is becoming a frequent filer

jetblastdubai · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:29 am

If SEA is DLs big, up-and-coming Pacific crown jewel, why would they go seasonal on SEA-HND when LAX-HND might be considered the less-important city pair to maintain of the two?

Assuming AA is successful in nabbing this HND slot, it'd be a huge coup but on the other hand, AAs luck in a couple other Tokyo markets hasn't been stellar. I wouldn't think the DOT would want the incredibly scarce HND slots to be used on the same city pair.

jetlanta · Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:00 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 20):
Yes, but it will be a potent argument that letting another HND slot go to Hawaii service is too much.

Unless HA applies for Kona again. Its going to be really hard for DOT to deny them this time around. Clearly, Hawaii is the only thing that works. LAX-HND #3 will provide far less pubic benefit than HND-KOA would provide the visitor economy of Hawaii, which I should remind everyone is an actual state and legitimate part of the American economy. All of that visitor spending is classified as a Net Import.

MSPNWA · Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:40 am

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 6):
This HND nightmare just won't end

I know. I'm tired of this nonsense with HND. I'm hoping there's a day soon where all four slots are used all year round like they should be.

Quoting max999 (Reply 5):
Since there are so few Haneda slots available, there's little value in duplicating an existing route. If I were the DOT, I would see much more value if AA applied for a market that doesn't have a Haneda flight.

I don't like duplication either, but I think we've run out of diversifying options. Having two airlines on LAX-HND is better than having the slot sit unused in SEA.

AADC10 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:18 am

UA should apply for GUM-HND. Then they could have SFO-HND arrive in the early morning at HND, go to GUM, possibly make another turn out of there, then return to HND late night and go back to SFO. Having the flight arrive in the morning and depart at night is a better schedule but none of the USA carriers have done that because it would leave an aircraft sitting at HND doing nothing for more than 14 hours. GUM is close enough to easily get to and back in a day and it is the only USA territory in that range with enough traffic to fill a 787.

HAL · Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:04 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 15):
Might as well let them double (or triple) up on LAX-HND and let them serve a market that wants and can support the service.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 26):
Unless HA applies for Kona again.

And HA should make a bid for a KOA-HND flight. The Hawaii flight is far and away the most successful of the original HND awards, so instead of the circus of duplicating the failures of bouncing gateways & airlines, how about giving HA the chance to duplicate the success its already had.

Once more favorable arrival times have been made available to U.S. airlines, then let the AA/UA/DL fight resume.

HAL

JAAlbert · Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:02 am

if i understand the request, AA is asking DOT to terminate a frequency granted DL that DL is using (though barely). Is there precedence for DOT taking such action? I imagine the process of stripping a route from one carrier and giving it to the other would require some sort of administrative review and hearing.
I also don't see DL rolling over on this

peanuts · Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:18 am

Both AA and DL are pushing their luck.
Delta thinks it has the 90 day rule on its side. And AA thinks it can, at a minimum force DL to pump more money into SEA-HND or at best, receive the slot.

The fact AA is in the game and not sitting idly by is probably most telling though.

What's even more telling is why the US governent is unable to yield better slot times during negotiations with Japan.
US carriers are giving up their NRT 5th freedom rights left and right. Apparently these rights hold little value anymore...

AAplat4life · Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:19 am

I'm sure Delta will put up a fight. Perhaps it will consider transferring this route to LAX. It is still a player there.

NYCAdvantage · Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:30 am

If AA is here to play ball, they should have the guts and go straight to the
US government and ask them to at least threaten Japan with a temporary suspension
Of open sky until they or anyone else could really fly at the desired times to HND,
AA and UA are in a power position to lead, since they have JV, of course they will not do that.
mean while they are jerking us around with this non scene, instead of forcing Japan' to open up
Weather you buy the slot or is granted. Until any of them can do that, is more like a restricted sky
than open skies.

RWA380 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:33 am

Quoting HAL (Reply 29):
And HA should make a bid for a KOA-HND flight. The Hawaii flight is far and away the most successful of the original HND awards, so instead of the circus of duplicating the failures of bouncing gateways & airlines, how about giving HA the chance to duplicate the success its already had

Let me preface what I'm about to say with, I agree with you, use the slot where it will get year round use, there is absolutely no room to argue that HA has been the only US carrier to pull off HND successfully. Could it be that HA has had that success as they don't have a split operation at TYO, so if passengers want to fly HA then HND is the only choice?

Now, despite your comments & my agreeing with you, isn't the first job of our government agencies that decide these things, to figure which route & carrier that would benefit the American travelling public? Obviously a KOA-HND flight would get a few locals heading to Japan, but most of that traffic is Japanese origin traffic.

I know a strong argument can be made, that this flight will create jobs, more tourism into an already popular place on a carrier that has a very strong, proven track record of success in the HND market, however none of that is supposed to be the criteria that is used to make the decision, which is why HA didn't get the approval last time.

Maybe it's time for things to change in regards to this type of situation, but for now, even though I think it's the best choice, I doubt HA will get the attention they deserve if an opportunity to apply comes to fruition.

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 17):
In their OST Filing AA claims DL just wants to sit on the slot.

That sounds pretty much what DL just announced in discontinuing their SEA-HND flight. I think AA has a point, there is no viable reason that a carrier should hold a full time authority, that they only use part time, when another carrier will provide year round service.

The DL slot was already brought to SEA by DLs request, only to have them shut it down right after the summer. The flight may work a few years away from now, if DL can get the strong presence they want at SEA.

enilria · Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:54 am

Quoting RWA380 (Reply 34):
That sounds pretty much what DL just announced in discontinuing their SEA-HND flight. I think AA has a point, there is no viable reason that a carrier should hold a full time authority, that they only use part time, when another carrier will provide year round service.

DL also did the same thing before and ultimately when they got it back they never stuck with it. I think it should be taken away. I think LAX is better than Hawaii if only because the Hawaii slots offer the bulk of America very limited access to HND.

jfk777 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:58 am

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):
AA169 LAX-HND 1705-2300
AA170 HND-LAX 0130-1825

This schedule speaks to the limitations the DOT agreed to for letting US carriers start HND flights, they can only do it betwwen 2200-0700. But BA, AF and LH flight day time flights to/from Europe to HND. ANA and JAL fly most of their European flights from Haneda now with the same or similar schedule they used at Narita. Why would the DOT agree to this awful schedule only a "vampire" would like ?

AA should be able to fly LAX - HND with the same schedule they used for NRT.

commavia · Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:18 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 36):
Why would the DOT agree to this awful schedule only a "vampire" would like ?

Why would the DOT really care, as long as Japanese carriers have to operate by the same awful schedule for their U.S. services? I don't think the U.S. government's objective was necessarily to pry open HND to as many flights at as many times as possible - despite Delta's advocacy (desperation-driven, in my view).

The one thing that is clear, though, from this awful HND slot schedule is that it does, perhaps inadvertently, give Japanese carriers a huge advantage. If you look at the nature and reality of schedule flights between the U.S. and Japan, and the fact that all HND-U.S. flights must arrive and depart between 2200 and 0700, this fits almost perfectly with Japanese carriers' ability to schedule flights with evening/very early morning HND departures, and early morning HND arrivals back, to maximize connectivity to domestic flights at HND while minimizing aircraft utilization. With that schedule, planes arrive on the west coast need only sit for a relatively small amount of time (6-7 hours) whereas a U.S. carrier operating a schedule timed well for any connections at all - on the U.S. or HND end - have to park their airplane for much longer.

Carpethead · Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:38 pm

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 36):
But BA, AF and LH flight day time flights to/from Europe to HND

The governments of UK, France, and Germany were successfully able to negotiate slots at HND.
All the countries received two slots each. BA, AF, & LH all have split operations at HND & NRT.
Meanwhile, the negotiations with the US and Japan failed. Japan was willing to let US carriers have four or five daytime slots at HND.
But that was not acceptable for the US-side, so we have the status quo at HND. On the flip-side there are slots at NRT, so just like UA upped the NRT-IAH to double-daily for the summer, any carrier can apply and most likely operate additional flights there.

yellowtail · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:17 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 15):
Of course, then we'd be doing the same thing six months from now. Another failed HND route. Another attempted grab. Repeat.

Agree 100%. Like groundhog day.

Carpethead · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:30 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 37):
Japanese carriers have to operate by the same awful schedule for their U.S. services?

What's so awful about the schedules? With the exception of the HNL flights that arrive at 2200 and geared for Tokyo area travelers, the departure and arrival times are similar to other flights operated by CX, OZ, & KE at HKG & ICN for US-flights.
At least JAL woke up and will re-adjust their SFO-HND legs so that it will be a red-eye flight.

I do agree that the limitations do favor the Japanese carriers in maximizing usage of their fleet.

jetblue1965 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:38 pm

I'm still surprised not a single US carrier is willing to park their plane at HND for the whole day in order to make their routes successful

jetblue1965 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:51 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 40):
What's so awful about the schedules? With the exception of the HNL flights that arrive at 2200 and geared for Tokyo area travelers, the departure and arrival times are similar to other flights operated by CX, OZ, & KE at HKG & ICN for US-flights.

Any minor delays and you may push the actual landing times from the proposed 2300 out to 0000 or even 0130. I don't think coughing up ¥10,000 to get to the hotel is an attractive value proposition for any leisure traveler (and you can't have a route like this survive entirely on business travel that can be expensed, so it would be curious to see if UA can defy gravity or be subject to the same unavoidable laws of physics)

The midwest and east coasters actually have a daytime HND arrival option - it's called AC via YVR (lands 1900). But then, some may pick loyalty and upgrade opportunities over better arrival times.

Here's the HND access picture for North America (including Hawaii) :

Skyteam (DL): LAX, summer-only SEA (may be yanked)
oneworld (JL+AA) : HNL, SFO, LAX (may begin)
Star (UA+NH+AC) : HNL, LAX, SFO, YVR, YYZ
unaligned (HA) : HNL

Rumors/requests but unfulfilled : GUM, KOA, more HNL

Previous unsuccessful attempts : JFK, DTW, winter SEA

[Edited 2014-10-03 07:02:16]

jayunited · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:58 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 23):
I wonder if ORD-HND could be done on UA. They have hubs on both ends and it would surely be picked over another LAX-HND route as there is currently no link from HND to the midwest since DL and AA withdrew DTW and JFK.

ORD-HND would not work with the current time slots U.S. carriers have available to them, the departure and arrival times from/into ORD would kill the flight.

With that being said I do not believe that DL will allow AA to get their hands on one if their HND slots. In order to protect their LAX flight I think DL would reactivate SEA-HND and take the loss on the route while at the same time continuing to lobby to have the flight relocated to HNL. I applaud AA it is a bold move on their part but the moment DL reactivates the SEA-HND their application is dead in the water. And now that they have showed their cards and their intentions there is no way DL will just sit on the sidelines and allow this to happen.

jetblue1965 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:04 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 43):
I think DL would reactivate SEA-HND and take the loss on the route while at the same time continuing to lobby to have the flight relocated to HNL. I applaud AA it is a bold move on their part but the moment DL reactivates the SEA-HND their application is dead in the water.

If DL does daily in summer and something like 3x weekly in winter, would that be sufficient to counter against any "dormancy" challenges ?

alfa164 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:07 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 25):
If SEA is DLs big, up-and-coming Pacific crown jewel, why would they go seasonal on SEA-HND when LAX-HND might be considered the less-important city pair to maintain of the two?

It appears that the HND market is mostly (at least, so far) limited to O&D travellers, who may be more knowledgable about the locations of HND vs. NRT than the average traveller. In the USA, LAX is by far the largest O&D market for Japan, and those travellers would be much happier travelling non-stop to their (presumably more convenient) airport.

For them, it is almost like a daily (or near-daily) Los Angeles-Tokyo shuttle flight, albiet an ill-timed one.

commavia · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:15 pm

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 40):
What's so awful about the schedules? With the exception of the HNL flights that arrive at 2200 and geared for Tokyo area travelers, the departure and arrival times are similar to other flights operated by CX, OZ, & KE at HKG & ICN for US-flights.

The reason these HND schedules are awful, and different from those of the airlines you mention going into HKG and ICN, is that those are far larger longhaul hubs that provide far broader connectivity, at all times of the day (including early in the morning), onward into Asia. If you arrive into HKG or ICN at 0500 or 0600 in the morning, you have easy connections onward to tons of places throughout East Asia, including interior China, Southeast Asia, etc. The connectivity is far more limited at HND - limited, specifically, to mostly domestic Japan and a few northeast Asia capitals.

In addition, the other issue that your question raises is the one I already mentioned - notice how you said "similar to other flights operated by CX, OZ, & KE" - again, those are all non-U.S. carriers who can take advantage of their natural aircraft utilization advantage. In order to maximize connectivity at their Asian hub - at multiple times throughout the day - they don't have to park an airplane in the U.S. for 18 hours the way U.S. carriers would have to do in Asia.

jetblue1965 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:16 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 45):

For them, it is almost like a daily (or near-daily) Los Angeles-Tokyo shuttle flight, albiet an ill-timed one.

They're all ill-timed, but ANA might have the least bad option :

LAX-HND Landing Times
DL 2230
AA 2300 (proposed)
NH 0500

The same applies up the road :

SFO-HND landing times
UA 2215 (currently 3-class 77E, but I think it needs to be down to 788 to survive)
JL 0500 (just upped from 788 to 77W)

jetlanta · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:39 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 35):
I think LAX is better than Hawaii if only because the Hawaii slots offer the bulk of America very limited access to HND.

The bulk of America already has plenty of access to HND and LAX #3 isn't going to make much difference. Especially when AA is proposing to use the same flight number that they currently use on their LAX-NRT flight. They are going to do that same thing UA did in SFO, just reallocate NRT capacity to HND. Whooppee! Huge win for America.

KOA-HND actually re-opens up a U.S. gateway airport. The fact that the flight is full of foreign visitors is, in fact, a significant economic benefit to the American economy. Visitor spending is a Net Export and this service would support economic development in Hawaii. Given that increasing foreign visitors is a huge national priority (Brand USA), you'd think that this flight would be given serious consideration. Its far more beneficial than yet another poorly-timed LAX flight that is reallocated from NRT.

LAXintl · Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:08 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 48):
KOA-HND actually re-opens up a U.S. gateway airport. The fact that the flight is full of foreign visitors is, in fact, a significant economic benefit to the American economy. Visitor spending is a Net Export and this service would support economic development in Hawaii. Given that increasing foreign visitors is a huge national priority (Brand USA), you'd think that this flight would be given serious consideration.

Those are indeed the arguments HA made, but DOT in its UA award even made mention that its mandate and selection criteria is geared towards looking at broader benefits for U.S. travelers.

The DOT acknowledged HA's proposal would likely be beneficial for the local economy, but the fact the flight would be composed of no more than 5% of US travelers by HA's own numbers reduced the competitive benefits of such limited access flight. DOT laid out a case where is wants to maximize competition and options for U.S travelling public which the mainland hub gateway does.

I agree from a commercial point of view the HA service might be the best off, just not convinced its the best from DOT policy point of view.

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 48):
he bulk of America already has plenty of access to HND and LAX #3 isn't going to make much difference.

Hey why not ? Let each major have a LAX link - the single largest mainland to Japan market.

I actually believe AA would do fine on the flight. With JV partner JAL they would end up with a nice LA-TYO schedule and avoid the current near duplication of NRT flights that operate within and hour of each other.

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