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Thomaas
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:14 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 42):
The midwest and east coasters actually have a daytime HND arrival option - it's called AC via YVR (lands 1900). But then, some may pick loyalty and upgrade opportunities over better arrival times.

AC flies YYZ-HND and NH flies YYZ-HND
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:40 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 50):
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 42):
The midwest and east coasters actually have a daytime HND arrival option - it's called AC via YVR (lands 1900). But then, some may pick loyalty and upgrade opportunities over better arrival times.

AC flies YYZ-HND and NH flies YYZ-HND

I meant to type AC YYZ and NH YVR, but when i edited the second time, it trimmed half my post away and now it's non-sensical. =(

AC YYZ lands HND at 1445, NH YVR lands HND at 1900.
 
N1120A
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Thread starter):

Note these are exact flight numbers used on the current Narita service so its pretty clear AA will drop those in favor of HND.

Those flight times are horrible.

Quoting aaway (Reply 22):
Also if AA were to win the authority in an expedited manner, CBP typically requires a bit more lead time for processing requests for landing rights. Assuming a quick blessing by DOT, 3.5 months in advance of launch is an aggressive timetable.

I'd guess that since they are replacing the NRT flight with these, they may well be able to expedite.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
HeeseokKoo
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 5:08 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 49):
With JV partner JAL they would end up with a nice LA-TYO schedule and avoid the current near duplication of NRT flights that operate within and hour of each other.

The gap will become only 0 to 30 mins from later this month. Two AA coded NRT-LAX will depart at the same time, 505pm.
 
olddominion727
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:28 pm

What about SJC-HND? I wanna hope AA will get back into the market for Silcon Valley. NH has proven they can make it work
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting olddominion727 (Reply 54):

What about SJC-HND? I wanna hope AA will get back into the market for Silcon Valley. NH has proven they can make it work

NH's SJC-NRT works because they have a large Star FF base (in the form of UA elites) to source from

I don't have exact figures but I'd imagine AA/JL would have a somewhat lower FF base from the South Bay to work with

And don't forget SJC-NRT, with much better times and connectivity, is only on 787-8.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:59 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 55):

I don't have exact figures but I'd imagine AA/JL would have a somewhat lower FF base from the South Bay to work with

AA once had a huge FF base in the South Bay since they had a hub in SJC. They decided to phase that out, so not sure how much loyalty they have left in the SJC area.

I'm not sure that SJC could support two TYO flights. I think NH will succeed at SJC, and maybe someone else like KE will add another SJC flight that will work, but I can't see SJC-NRT and SJC-HND.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:27 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 56):

AA once had a huge FF base in the South Bay since they had a hub in SJC. They decided to phase that out, so not sure how much loyalty they have left in the SJC area.

I wouldn't call that FF base "huge" (i'd be surprised if it is more than 30% the size of UA's base), and that SJC operation was certainly far more focus city than "hub".

They say 9/11 was the culprit that killed the SJC hub but it could also be a convenient excuse (who knows).
 
HKG212
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:33 pm

Quoting oc2dc (Reply 18):
JFK-HND was a nightmare, but if I recall properly, it also had terrible timing

The timing was awful indeed. I'm really perplexed though by this application; still pretty awful hours, in a market that has two other options (NH and DL), whereas JFK has no other HND service. The other curiosity is that European carriers have been getting pretty decent slots at HND, but not AA. What gives?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:46 pm

Quoting HKG212 (Reply 58):
European carriers have been getting pretty decent slots at HND, but not AA. What gives?

With the opening of its 4th runway and expanded international terminal, Haneda was able to expand its slots and a small number of daytime ones were awarded to foreign countries.

Japan Awards 7 Countries Daytime Haneda Slots (by LAXintl Jun 13 2013 in Civil Aviation)
Japan Hands Out More Haneda Daytime Slots (by LAXintl Jul 17 2013 in Civil Aviation)

The US was not in this group of recipient nations.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
HeeseokKoo
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:47 pm

Quoting HKG212 (Reply 58):
The other curiosity is that European carriers have been getting pretty decent slots at HND, but not AA. What gives?

Even for the first batch when everyone got night slots, US got 1 year later than the others. Other nations just say yes to Japan and take whatever Japan planned, US takes time and did negotiation. It is reported that Japan arranged 4 daytime slots for US and I believe they are still in negotiating.

(although JAL recently stated there will be 9 slots to US, I don't know if it includes night slots too)

So what US got from the negotiation for the night slots? US slot is 10pm-7am while others' were 11pm-7am. And US mainland bound flights can leave only after midnight for "fair" competition.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 57):
I wouldn't call that FF base "huge" (i'd be surprised if it is more than 30% the size of UA's base), and that SJC operation was certainly far more focus city than "hub".

They say 9/11 was the culprit that killed the SJC hub but it could also be a convenient excuse (who knows).

AA once had around 80 departures from SJC to everything from NRT to DEN to MIA to OGG to SEA to YVR to SNA to BOS to AUS.....and much more. They had four each flights a day to BOS and AUS, even, at one time.

I'd call it a hub. But yes, I assume UA has a large Bay Area FF base due to their hub at SFO that NH can tap into.

How is the SJC-NRT flight doing these days anyway? NH hasn't discontinued it.
 
N1120A
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:12 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 57):

They say 9/11 was the culprit that killed the SJC hub but it could also be a convenient excuse (who knows).

The real things that killed SJC are as follows:

1) 2000 tech bubble
2) Poor location.

The first is self-explanatory, the second is pretty easy to figure. While SJC is closer to the "traditional" Silicon Valley cities of San Jose, Cupertino, etc., it is not so much closer to Palo Alto that a larger hub isn't more attractive, and it isn't even close to central for the rest of the Bay Area. That, combined with the high end residential growth of San Francisco and the East Bay, plus BART to SFO, really hurt things there. AA saw that writing on the wall and when all the airlines dropped 20% of capacity overnight after 9/11, pulling that from SJC was a no-brainer.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 57):
I wouldn't call that FF base "huge" (i'd be surprised if it is more than 30% the size of UA's base), and that SJC operation was certainly far more focus city than "hub".

Well, it probably WAS rather large when AA had their semi-hub/large focus at SJC. Now, much of the traffic drive/trains up to SFO and is indeed owned by United.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:16 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 62):
2) Poor location.

The first is self-explanatory, the second is pretty easy to figure. While SJC is closer to the "traditional" Silicon Valley cities of San Jose, Cupertino, etc., it is not so much closer to Palo Alto that a larger hub isn't more attractive, and it isn't even close to central for the rest of the Bay Area. That, combined with the high end residential growth of San Francisco and the East Bay,

Last time I checked, the SJC area has a pretty large residential high end growth too, far more than San Francisco. I have a friend in San Mateo who actually often drove to SJC because it was much easier for him to get in and out of there.

SJC itself has, what, a cachement area of about 2 million?
 
deltal1011man
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:36 pm

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 13):
If AA were successful in taking this slot, and Delta was left with one Haneda slot, my money is they try to use it from Seattle.

So Delta is going to give up its SEA slot, only to have to ask (and then likely cause everyone to bid) for it move its current LAX-HND slot to SEA?

That, and your constantly being wrong about Delta and LAX.....yeah I'll take this bet.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:23 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 64):
So Delta is going to give up its SEA slot, only to have to ask (and then likely cause everyone to bid) for it move its current LAX-HND slot to SEA?

You mean do the exact same thing that Delta did when it gave up DTWHND by taking a calculated risk and betting for itself that it would win? Yeah, it wouldn't shock me, because Delta would probably win.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 64):
That, and your constantly being wrong about Delta and LAX.....yeah I'll take this bet.

Not constantly wrong about Delta/LAX, sorry. It's been smarter with its growth this time around, and I've never predicted it would draw down like dozens of others. I know you love to imagine things, though, like how Delta has secret access to all these future gates or will somehow keep growing massively when its just about capped out running ~160 dailies from ~17 gates.

[Edited 2014-10-03 17:28:24]
a.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:31 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 65):
will somehow keep growing massively when its just about capped out running ~160 dailies from ~17 gates.

now its 160 flights. Not long ago it was 140 flights.
what will it be the next time Delta adds flights?

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 65):
I know you love to imagine things, though, like how Delta has secret access to all these future gates o

I don't think I said that. I said Delta feels it has way to grow. clearly they have something.....they are adding more flights, 1x to SJC, SMF 2x to SFO 1x to AUS 2x to SAT.


Quoting mah4546 (Reply 65):
It's been smarter with its growth this time around, and I've never predicted it would draw down like dozens of others.

right  
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 65):
You mean do the exact same thing that Delta did when it gave up DTWHND by taking a calculated risk and betting for itself that it would win?

Think about what your saying. That isn't apples to apples.
If Delta was going to dump LAX-HND why wouldn't they cut that flight? Cut SEA-HND, only to try and move LAX-HND to SEA, even though they have the right to fly SEA-HND right now might be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

I don't think Delta management is stupid.
 
commavia
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:09 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 66):
now its 160 flights. Not long ago it was 140 flights.
what will it be the next time Delta adds flights?
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 66):
I don't think I said that. I said Delta feels it has way to grow. clearly they have something
Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 66):
I don't think Delta management is stupid.

Okay, although it does seem as though Delta is starting to run out of proverbial gate space "runway" at LAX, no?
 
ldvaviation
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:34 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 67):
Okay, although it does seem as though Delta is starting to run out of proverbial gate space "runway" at LAX, no?

The NIMBY's are starting to ask more questions about gate utilization. The litigation over the disposition of Ontario Airport has opened up a can of worms. This is not the time to be expanding without the necessary gates.
 
laca773
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:23 am

For these US-HND flights to truly work, they need arrival slots similar to what they have at NRT.

Isn't a 77E too large for the amount of demand going LAX-HND? Right now, how many of AA's passengers are connecting via JV flights on JL? I suspect quite a good amount are. How many redeye departures will JL have @ HND for AA passengers to connect to? BKK? SIN? KUL? I know there are not many. This would be a good route for AA's 787-8s.
 
N1120A
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:32 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 63):

Last time I checked, the SJC area has a pretty large residential high end growth too, far more than San Francisco.

San Jose as a city has more people than San Francisco, but the price per square foot isn't close.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 63):
SJC itself has, what, a cachement area of about 2 million?

Which all also are in SFO's cachement, along with another 5.5 million people.

Quoting LDVAviation (Reply 68):

The NIMBY's are starting to ask more questions about gate utilization.

The NIMBY's are going to have lots of fun arguing about this when the consent decree runs out.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:35 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 66):
now its 160 flights. Not long ago it was 140 flights.
what will it be the next time Delta adds flights?

I never said anything at 140 flights. I've only been saying these things recently. Delta is stuck with the gates it has and can't really add much more. At 140 flights, it still had room to grow. At 160, not much. That's that. You're making things up again which I never said.

Now I have mentioned how Delta is doing a lot of capacity dumping putting too much capacity in a lot of LA markets that don't need more capacity and where it under-performs in the market as the low-fare carrier (RDU and BNA are the two best examples; AUS , DFW, SAT, YVR will probably be the same story) and flying it for the sake of flying it, but that's a totally different story. That strategy is one I like and think can often have long-term benefits but, unfortunately for Delta, it's tough to pull off when your gate constrained and your competitors - in this case AA, UA, WN - are not.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 66):
Think about what your saying. That isn't apples to apples.
If Delta was going to dump LAX-HND why wouldn't they cut that flight? Cut SEA-HND, only to try and move LAX-HND to SEA, even though they have the right to fly SEA-HND right now might be one of the stupidest things I have ever heard.

No, think about what you are saying. When Delta decided to suspend SEA-HND, it had no clue AA was going to come out and apply for LAX-HND (and HA is probably going to ask for KOA-HND now, too). Delta's thinking then doesn't apply to now. Now that AA (and likely others) are asking for DL's slot, it has some thinking to do. If it faces the chance of having a slot stripped, is LAX or SEA more important to Delta? The answer is probably SEA. That wasn't the problem it was facing when it decided it wanted to seasonally suspend one of the two routes thinking the suspension will go uncontested.

[Edited 2014-10-03 21:36:58]
a.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:36 am

Quoting laca773 (Reply 69):

Actually AA might not truly want the slot. They're playing this card to force DL to resume year round service and to eat more losses and bleed more red ink.

But since AA played the first card, HA would ask for KOA again and UA might ask for GUM or ORD. The musical chairs are on again.
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:38 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 72):
Actually AA might not truly want the slot. They're playing this card to force DL to resume year round service and to eat more losses and bleed more red ink.

I disagree AA does not want the slot. This is the third time it is applying for LAX-HND. It clearly wants to access to Haneda.
a.
 
PWMRamper
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:02 am

Quoting Carpethead (Reply 40):

Because the Tokyo trains are basically shut down at midnight, or earlier depending where you are going. It was hard enough catching a train with a 2230 arrival, but 2300 makes it near impossible.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 5:26 am

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 73):

Every airline wants HND now *thinking* that they would receive first dips to daytime HND slots down the road

So far no US airline has proven that non-HNL flights can make money at all. only HA is laughing to the bank. Even UA's upcoming SFO service is a big question mark. UA *might* fare better than other attempts, but it is no guarantee they would break even either.

The question then becomes which event arrives first - daytime HND slots, or the losing of patience after extensive periods of red ink ? If daytime HND doesn't arrive until 2018 (say hypothetically), is AA (or DL/UA) willing to eat 3+ years of red ink ? And if DL insists on staying put at LAX-HND at all costs, are both airlines prepared for the yield depression ?
 
PHX787
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:36 am

They may get the slot but the flight itself will NOT work.

Next to no opportunity for LAX connections, and NO connections for HND whatsoever.

This is a bad idea. Not good. Especially on a 772.
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NickLAX
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:50 pm

What is the earliest in the evening a US carrier arrival slot has been accomodated into HND on original and revised slot assignments by Japanese Transport Ministry?

If AA wants to RON a VERY long time I'm sure they could apply for an early AM arrival with a turnaround late PM - this means time on ground with no utilization. This gives it similar timing to the ANA LAX-HND routing but with a costly RON and no utilzation.

For O&D ; there are late bus options now from HND but if the inbound runs late into HND you are hosed to take a cab.... shame they don't run a bus hourly overnight to at least Tokyo station, Yokohama station and to Shibuya station where at least you can get a more reasonable cab price to anywhere in area.

Bar that you would think at some point even if not blatantly daytime arrivals allowed at least early evening arrivals would be as part of the next slot assignments. EU carriers have this ; wondering what US DOT has been mulling in their discussions with their Japanese counterparts.
 
ldvaviation
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:38 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
The NIMBY's are going to have lots of fun arguing about this when the consent decree runs out.

Even before the recent revelations, LAWA had expressed a willingness to extend the terms of the Settlement. It needs the extra time to finish contraction of certain elements of the capital program. If the consent decree runs out, those elements may be subject to renegotiation.

With the recent revelations, LAWA may have ceded the higher ground. The City Council is going to hold hearings on whether LAWA just paid lip service to the the promise it made to regionalize air traffic. We'll find out then if the airport director really said that it was all a PR move to get the NIMBY's to settle.

Admittedly, it was always a stupid idea, shifting traffic to Ontario and Palmdale at the expense of LAX. But knowing that it was stupid LAWA still made the promise. If the NIMBY's can show that LAWA had no intention of fulfilling the promise, they will have more leverage going forward.

[Edited 2014-10-04 09:39:24]
 
Prost
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:14 pm

Delta will be operating SEA-HND sporadically over the next few months. It won't achieve dormancy, but it is far from a 'regular' schedule.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:54 pm

Quoting prost (Reply 79):

That's exactly what AA is challenging - that this sporadic schedule serves no real benefit to consumers except to skirt the dormancy rule
 
ASFlyer
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:22 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 76):
Next to no opportunity for LAX connections, and NO connections for HND whatsoever.

There are a wide variety of connections at LAX, and a larger O&D market to Japan than SEA. Very limited, if any, connecting opportunities from HND to anywhere else but there would be connecting opportunities through HND back to LAX. I don't know if LAX would work or not but I think it stands a better chance than SEA.
 
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Pohakuloa
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:06 am

Been reading about the HND slot situations for years now and at this point in time with little working other than HNL, a few questions come to mind. Perhaps no one will be able to or can answer these questions, but I pose them just the same...

1. How much potential revenue are they making/not losing by doing late night turns in HND?

2. How much revenue would be lost in this instance by leaving a frame on the ground for the better part of a day?

3. If the routes are losing money as has been hinted at, would it be in the airline's best interest to bite the bullet and leave the airframe on the ground all day with an early morning arrival (as opposed to late night) and then have an evening departure and potentially gaining more revenue due to more favorable DEP/ARR times?

If they are going to be losing money on the routes with current restrictions, it would just make sense to try and minimize your losses wherever possible, even if it does seem to go against what seems logical....

Respectfully submitted,
Pohakuloa
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Prost
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Mon Oct 06, 2014 3:09 am

Are the parking fees at HND significantly higher than the parking fees at S. American airports?
 
deltal1011man
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:20 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 67):
Okay, although it does seem as though Delta is starting to run out of proverbial gate space "runway" at LAX, no?

couldn't tell you. On paper, yes. but the company is constantly telling employees they are growing in LA.
Just like on paper Delta has zero growth room at SEA but is expecting to add 100-200 more flights there.

I thought Delta was done about 20 flights ago, but they keep adding more and more flights.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 71):
Now I have mentioned how Delta is doing a lot of capacity dumping putting too much capacity in a lot of LA markets that don't need more capacity and where it under-performs in the market as the low-fare carrier (RDU and BNA are the two best examples; AUS , DFW, SAT, YVR will probably be the same story) and flying it for the sake of flying it, but that's a totally different story.

Just like another airline is adding more and more capacity to Asia while burning money.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 71):
When Delta decided to suspend SEA-HND, it had no clue AA was going to come out and apply for LAX-HND (and HA is probably going to ask for KOA-HND now, too).

horse crap. Richard Anderson is not nearly as stupid as you think he is. I can promise you they think of every possibility

Now I don't think Delta is going to expect the DOT to give AA they slot, and even if they were going to open it up for bids the DOT will allow Delta the chance to keep the slot (assuming they want to fly it over the winter to keep it) So Delta has nothing to lose here.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 71):
. If it faces the chance of having a slot stripped, is LAX or SEA more important to Delta?

LAX is much closer to covering its cost than SEA is. that is why they pulled SEA back.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 71):
That wasn't the problem it was facing when it decided it wanted to seasonally suspend one of the two routes thinking the suspension will go uncontested.

Again, Delta's management is not nearly as stupid as you make them out to be. Its foolish to think that one of the most aggressive management teams doesn't expect other to come after them. Delta would be doing the same thing if the shoes were flipped.

Quoting mah4546 (Reply 71):

I never said anything at 140 flights. I've only been saying these things recently. Delta is stuck with the gates it has and can't really add much more. At 140 flights, it still had room to grow. At 160, not much. That's that. You're making things up again which I never said.

lol whatever you say.  
 
MAH4546
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Mon Oct 06, 2014 5:20 am

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 84):
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 71):

I never said anything at 140 flights. I've only been saying these things recently. Delta is stuck with the gates it has and can't really add much more. At 140 flights, it still had room to grow. At 160, not much. That's that. You're making things up again which I never said.

lol whatever you say.  

Quote me then. Do a search, find a quote where I said at 140 flights Delta was done. You can't, because I never said that. You are making things up.
a.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:37 pm

DOT set up timeline for responses to AA's proposal for the department to withdraw a Haneda slot pair from DL and reallocate it to AA.

Answers to AA's motion will be due Oct. 17th with follow up replies to answers due Oct.28th.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
jetblue1965
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:28 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 86):

Wow that's a really expedited timeline. Grabbing the popcorn now .
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:16 pm

And no surprise - Hawaiian Air has an opinion on the matter.

In their submission, they support AA's motion to withdraw Delta SEA-HND slot holding, though they say the DOT should do what it has done in the past and institute a formal allocation proceeding to re-award the slot.

HA says its ready to submit an application to provide year-round service and offer full utilization of the allocated frequency for the greatest public benefit.

They further state the DOT needs to finally call Delta on the carpet for the charade it continues to carry out over the utilization of precious slots in a limited access market.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Thu Oct 09, 2014 6:48 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 88):
In their submission, they support AA's motion to withdraw Delta SEA-HND slot holding, though they say the DOT should do what it has done in the past and institute a formal allocation proceeding to re-award the slot.

HA says its ready to submit an application to provide year-round service and offer full utilization of the allocated frequency for the greatest public benefit.

They further state the DOT needs to finally call Delta on the carpet for the charade it continues to carry out over the utilization of precious slots in a limited access market.

With each variable, the situation becomes more and more tangled.

Truthfully, each airline offers various pros and cons, but ultimately, I do believe that it will come down between American and HA. DL has pretty much been given all the chances it deserves and that will not work favorably for it.

Unfortunately, in AA's case, the same argument applies: tried once before, and failed, now an effort to try again from a different station, but ultimately one that is presently served to HND by several carriers already.

HA has been denied in the past, and currently seems to be the only success story at HND with its HNLHND flight.

Honestly, I think that they may have a more compelling case this time around and the DOT will pull a fast one on everybody.
 
dirtyfrankd
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:35 pm

Assuming that AA is granted this slot at HND, and switches their LAX - NRT service to LAX - HND, could they use the leftover NRT slot to resume service between JFK and NRT?
 
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IrishAyes
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Thu Oct 09, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting dirtyfrankd (Reply 90):
Assuming that AA is granted this slot at HND, and switches their LAX - NRT service to LAX - HND, could they use the leftover NRT slot to resume service between JFK and NRT?

JL has back-filled some of the capacity lost by the cancellation of AA JFKHND by sending a second daily 788 flight to JFK, which, under the terms of the JV, is metal neutral with AA.

With the freed up NRT slot, AA would be wise to launch PHL-NRT. A 2-class 777 would be a good fit for this route, or a 788.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:35 pm

Just for reference to those talking about AA back filling something at NRT.

The manner NRT slots works, there is no assurance AA will maintain the times once they drop a flight.

NRT slots are assigned on a national basis and the US pool of slots which are maintained on local basis by JCAB/MLIT are share between AA-DL-FX-PO-UA or any other US operator. Once a slot is vacated every other US airline has the right to use it with preference given to moving grandfathered existing service into the vacated slot. So lets say AA gives up a 6pm slot, if DL wants that it could take it and in return maybe vacate a 3pm slot, so then AA could be left with the 3pm to start something else with.

As of today there are spare slots available for US airlines (mostly thanks to DL draw down), but there is no assurance on getting the timing which might work best for US end hub connectivity. It could easily take a few scheduling seasons to be able to swap around into something that is more ideal.
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PHX787
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:51 am

Quoting NickLAX (Reply 77):
What is the earliest in the evening a US carrier arrival slot has been accomodated into HND on original and revised slot assignments by Japanese Transport Ministry?

IIRC, all US-bound flights on non-japanese carriers are relegated to these slots. JL also IIRC is relegated to these slots. If NH operates

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 81):
There are a wide variety of connections at LAX, and a larger O&D market to Japan than SEA.

There may be connections but this air route to Tokyo is entirely too oversaturated. If DL can't pull it off, nobody can.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 92):
As of today there are spare slots available for US airlines (mostly thanks to DL draw down), but there is no assurance on getting the timing which might work best for US end hub connectivity. It could easily take a few scheduling seasons to be able to swap around into something that is more ideal.

Can an airline "sell" this? For example, can they sell the slot to a Japanese carrier?
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LAXintl
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Mon Oct 13, 2014 4:36 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 93):
Can an airline "sell" this? For example, can they sell the slot to a Japanese carrier?

Slots in Japan are not owned by the carrier utilizing them, so no they cannot be transferred via sale.
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ridgid727
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:34 pm

City of Seattle Objects to American & Hawaiians filings.


-Tokyo (Haneda) Combination Services Allocation Proceeding

OST-2010-0018

October 17, 2014

Consolidated Answer of the Port of Seattle to American Airlines and Hawaiian Airlines

Delta's Seattle-Haneda service provides vital competition to the ATI alliances with Japanese carriers and increases the geographic options for travelers in the Pacific Northwest region. It has only been 16 months since the inauguration of Delta's Seattle-Haneda service. The familiarity of Seattle travelers with this route is not yet optimal, but Seattle is working closely with Delta sales and marketing to improve and further develop this valuable route for the region.

Neither American nor Hawaiian disputes that Delta is operating its Seattle-Haneda slots in full compliance with the Department's dormancy conditions. As such, it would be unlawful and unwise to summarily withdraw slots from Seattle and put them up for reallocation to another gateway.

We urge the Department to deny the motions of American and Hawaiian in this proceeding.

Counsel
 
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cageyjames
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:42 pm

Quoting ridgid727 (Reply 95):
The familiarity of Seattle travelers with this route is not yet optimal, but Seattle is working closely with Delta sales and marketing to improve and further develop this valuable route for the region.

Er, OK. So you're saying nobody in Seattle knows about it but now that AA and HA see blood in the water you'll start mention of the route in your monthly water bill insert?
 
ridgid727
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:52 pm

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 96):

Er, OK. So you're saying nobody in Seattle knows about it but now that AA and HA see blood in the water you'll start mention of the route in your monthly water bill insert?

Probably at the urging of Delta, along with a few real nice complimentary first class positive space tickets anywhere on the SkyTeam system, warranted this filing.
 
bjorn14
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:16 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 45):
who may be more knowledgable about the locations of HND vs. NRT

Is there really a huge discrepancy between HND and NRT? Is NRT slot controlled too?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
strfyr51
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RE: AA Applies For LAX-HND; Seeks DL SEA Slot

Fri Oct 17, 2014 9:34 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 23):
I wonder if ORD-HND could be done on UA. They have hubs on both ends and it would surely be picked over another LAX-HND route as there is currently no link from HND to the midwest since DL and AA withdrew DTW and JFK.

the ORD-HND could be done but it already has ORD-NRT and the NRT flight lands in the better part of the day. HND is there but the times are so sketchy it might just be easier to feed the SFO-HND flight
Can it be done? Yes! Should it be done?? I'm not so sure of that!

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