WS Announces YHZ-GLA

c172akula · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:21 pm

The press conference is just starting now in YHZ.

http://blog.westjet.com/westjet-anno...service-to-glasgow-united-kingdom/

Daily non-stop flights beginning May 29, 2015 operated by a 737-700.

Seasonal service operating May 29-Oct 23, 2015.

frostyj · Fri Oct 03, 2014 1:33 pm

Good for them but I was hoping for Belfast to St Johns...

Noise · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:01 pm

Wouldn't be surprised to see WS serving much of the British Isles in 3-5 years time. DUB, GLA, EDI, MAN and maybe even BHX and LHR by the end of the decade from YYT and YHZ using the 73N. Good for them!!! I assume the 763s will be flown from Toronto and Calgary to destinations across the pond.

jetblue1965 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:08 pm

Wow i didn't know halifax and glasgow has such a big local market that it warrants a nonstop flight ... or is WS simply finding the 2 shortest points between europe (ex-iceland) and canada that a 73G can fly nonstop ?

Low fares or not, I would dread the prospect of 737 from YVR-YHZ then more 737 from YHZ to GLA

jamesontheroad · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:17 pm

Locals to YHZ and GLA will know that Europe Airpost (5O) had a go at weekly service for summer 2014, although apparently struggled with the loads. I doubt they'll be back following this announcement.

Good work WestJet. I'm also hopeful that summer seasonal service to BFS and maybe somewhere in England will follow.

Outbound, the block time is 5h 15m with a one hour turnaround and a 6h 15m westbound. I seem to remember that AC's YYT-LHR flight is operated out and back by the same crew - is that possible here?

[Edited 2014-10-03 07:21:20]

ytz · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:20 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 3):
Wow i didn't know halifax and glasgow has such a big local market that it warrants a nonstop flight ... or is WS simply finding the 2 shortest points between europe (ex-iceland) and canada that a 73G can fly nonstop ?

Bit of both. There's a solid market for connections between the Canadian Maritimes and the British Isles. After all, we are talking about a place called New Scotland.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 3):
Low fares or not, I would dread the prospect of 737 from YVR-YHZ then more 737 from YHZ to GLA

I don't think it's really meant to target that crowd. For those travelers, WS has partnerships with BA and AF. But from YHZ, it's a much better than others that involve backtracking. And to be fare, the offering from Westjet is comparable or even better than Air Canada Rouge. AC's 767 has a seat that's 0.5in wider. But WS has an inch more of seat pitch.

frostyj · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting jamesontheroad (Reply 4):

6 hours to Halifax! Really.. Would it not be about 5 hours

I've flown to EWR is 6 hours before.

[Edited 2014-10-03 07:36:46]

jetblue1965 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 2:38 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 5):

I don't think it's really meant to target that crowd. For those travelers, WS has partnerships with BA and AF. But from YHZ, it's a much better than others that involve backtracking. And to be fare, the offering from Westjet is comparable or even better than Air Canada Rouge. AC's 767 has a seat that's 0.5in wider. But WS has an inch more of seat pitch.

I'm quite against this whole ROGUE thing too. It's okay for certain extremely low-yield destinations but AC is expanding it far beyond what it should be intended for.

Miami · Fri Oct 03, 2014 4:42 pm

Schedule:

WS030 YYZ1810 – 2112YHZ2245 – 0800+1GLA 73W D
WS031 GLA0930 – 1145YHZ1315 – 1434YYZ 73W D

http://airlineroute.net/2014/10/03/ws-yhzgla-s15/

YYZYYT · Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:04 pm

According to great cirle mapper, YHZ-GLA is 2,630 nm. That's quite a bit longer than YYT-DUB (2,049 nm), or the usual trasn-con routes like YYZ-YVR, YYZ-LAX (under 2,100 nm)... or even YHZ-YYC, which is cited in the CBC article as a "comperable" flight, (2,334 nm).

It is similar to YVR-HNL (2,705 nm), though. How do their 737-700s do on that route - are there restrictions (especially westbound)?

Also requires ETOPS 120... I recall reading that Westjet had a number of aircraft that were ETOPS certified, but does it have enough?

frostyj · Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:18 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 9):

1700nm...

[Edited 2014-10-03 11:27:40]

by738 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:19 pm

Fantastic. With a much more prominent carrier than (?who, Airpost), I have every confidence that with this operator this will do well. Great connections and the right size of aircraft for this. Interesting especially as WestJet were being woo'd by EDI

cylw · Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:35 pm

WS does YYJ-HNL in the winter with a -700. Pretty much the same distance as GLA-YHZ. I believe the flight is lidded to less than 136 though.

threepoint · Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:36 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 9):
YHZ-GLA is 2,630 nm.

Quoting frostyj (Reply 10):
1700nm...

Why am I getting 2286 nm? Split the difference.

HUYfan · Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:43 pm

As with the DUB route, this is more about Toronto-Halifax-Glasgow and vice versa. There will be some pax destined to and from Halifax, but the route is primarily Toronto to Glasgow vv.

Kind regards

HUYfan

Damian · Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:49 pm

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 14):
As with the DUB route, this is more about Toronto-Halifax-Glasgow and vice versa

It will be interesting to see how this affects Air Transat loads ex GLA. The Air Canada Rouge EDI-YYZ service has already had an impact. That said, Europe Air Post have had a dreadful season ex GLA to Halifax. Will Glasgow-Halifax ever be anything other than a very thin route, despite much hyped "historical links"?

SpaceshipDC10 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 13):

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 9):
YHZ-GLA is 2,630 nm.
Quoting frostyj (Reply 10):
1700nm...

Why am I getting 2286 nm? Split the difference.

On great circle mapper, the distance are in miles, not nautical miles, so for the YHZ-GLA route I get 2630 miles.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 3):
Wow i didn't know halifax and glasgow has such a big local market that it warrants a nonstop flight ... or is WS simply finding the 2 shortest points between europe (ex-iceland) and canada that a 73G can fly nonstop ?

I guess this is also part of it, and as already mentioned there can be bonds between Scotland and Nova Scotia. Also I suspect that WS will use YHZ as a focus city with other flights providing connecting traffic for GLA.

So now we'll have three Canadian carriers flying to Scotland. Not bad.

by738 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 7:59 pm

Quoting Damian (Reply 15):
The Air Canada Rouge EDI-YYZ service has already had an impact

GLA -YYZ in August was up 3% ?
Looking at the CAA stats I would have thought the impact would have been far greater. ACr seem to be attracting their own pax or generating new pax same seems to go for US tp PHL. TS services dont appear to be reduced and are programmed for 3 destination again next year with YYZ 5+ weekly. I dont think TS will be losing any sleep.

frostyj · Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:13 pm

Once again we have the announcement of a 2,600 and 2,700 mile route tonight, yet we are continually told that a 737 cannot operate from Ireland to NE USA. Whatever..

[Edited 2014-10-03 13:16:01]

ghYHZ · Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:31 pm

I live in New Glasgow “New Scotland” about 100 miles northeast of YHZ and here in Pictou and Antigonish Counties and Cape Breton there are very strong cultural ties between Nova Scotia and Scotland. One only needs to look at the names in the local phone book and many can easily trace family ties back to the Highlands.

For a number of years.... Air Canada had non-stop flights between Halifax and Prestwick which continued on to Heathrow. My first flight across the pond was in an L-1011.....four hours and twenty minutes from wheels-up in YHZ to wheels-down in PIK.

Clydenairways · Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:42 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 9):
According to great cirle mapper, YHZ-GLA is 2,630 nm.

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 16):

On great circle mapper, the distance are in miles, not nautical miles, so for the YHZ-GLA route I get 2630 miles.

Yes, it defaults to regular miles, but you can select alternatives down the bottom of the page , NM , KM etc

it's 2286NM

AirNovaBAe146 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:50 pm

It is 2286 nm.

Bump it up slightly for ATC zig zags and that will be your total nautical mileage. I'd suspect it is in the upper range of what a -700 can do.

Going east - at least they should have the jetstream at their back.

Returning west - I believe the winds are less intense during the summer. Plus there is Iceland, Greenland, and Newfoundland, not to mention several decent options in NS, NB, and PEI that can be used as an alternate for fuel planning. I'd wager they'll have a couple days where they might have to make a fuel stop, but not many.

Does anybody have the longest routes WS flies their B737-700s on?

[Edited 2014-10-03 15:26:58]

cylw · Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:12 pm

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 21):

Does anybody have the longest routes WS flies their B737-700s on?

I would guess it's YYT-YYC @ 2342nm

skipness1E · Fri Oct 03, 2014 10:56 pm

Air Canada served YHZ-PIK then GLA for years, the visiting relatives market literally died out though. This flight still operates to LHR as AC860 without the stop in Scotland and has what appears to be the most expensive fares I have seen for such a short flight! Absolutely ball crunching $$$

Viscount724 · Fri Oct 03, 2014 11:19 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 3):
Low fares or not, I would dread the prospect of 737 from YVR-YHZ then more 737 from YHZ to GLA

I doubt they'll be carrying many passengers from YVR as there's no nonstop service YVR-YHZ. Would require two connections. And WS (and AS and other carriers) have operated 737s for years from the west coast to Hawaii. YHZ-GLA is slightly shorter than YVR-HNL. It's also shorter by 56 nm than the longest WS domestic nonstop (YYC-YYT),

Quoting ytz (Reply 5):
And to be fare, the offering from Westjet is comparable or even better than Air Canada Rouge. AC's 767 has a seat that's 0.5in wider. But WS has an inch more of seat pitch.

But WS means a 33% chance of a middle seat vs. 17% on a Rouge 763.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 7):
I'm quite against this whole ROGUE thing too

Rouge, not Rogue.

Thenoflyzone · Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:33 am

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 9):
Also requires ETOPS 120... I recall reading that Westjet had a number of aircraft that were ETOPS certified, but does it have enough?

I know WS has 3 737-700s spec'd for North Atlantic ops. Other than ETOPS requirements and HF radio's, these birds also have 8.33 kHz radio spacing in order to fly to Europe. (A requirement for most European countries for flights above FL195, and at all altitudes as of 2018)

The birds in question are

C-FWSK
C-GUWJ
C-GVWJ

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 21):
Does anybody have the longest routes WS flies their B737-700s on?

Quoting cylw (Reply 22):
I would guess it's YYT-YYC @ 2342nm

Dont know if it's a 737 or 738 but WS's longest flight is from YVR to CUN, 2417 nm.

Quoting frostyj (Reply 18):
Once again we have the announcement of a 2,600 and 2,700 mile route tonight, yet we are continually told that a 737 cannot operate from Ireland to NE USA. Whatever..

In all fairness, YHZ is closer to Europe than all of the NE USA, and even this flight might be a little tight during strong winter headwinds on the return leg.

The 737-7 Max should be able to do NE USA - Ireland/UK. Whether it will be profitable with so few seats, that's another issue !

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2014-10-03 17:58:15]

threepoint · Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:36 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 7):
I'm quite against this whole ROGUE thing too

Rouge, not Rogue.

I suspect that was a deliberate spelling. There's much sentiment that would concur with the latter moniker.

cylw · Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:51 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 25):

CUN-YVR is always an -800

Thenoflyzone · Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:54 am

Quoting cylw (Reply 27):
CUN-YVR is always an -800

Which means it's definitely doable in a -700 !

longhauler · Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:50 am

Quoting by738 (Reply 17):
GLA -YYZ in August was up 3% ?
Looking at the CAA stats I would have thought the impact would have been far greater. ACr seem to be attracting their own pax or generating new pax same seems to go for US tp PHL. TS services dont appear to be reduced and are programmed for 3 destination again next year with YYZ 5+ weekly. I dont think TS will be losing any sleep.

Rouge doesn't fly to GLA.

Quoting ytz (Reply 5):
And to be fare, the offering from Westjet is comparable or even better than Air Canada Rouge. AC's 767 has a seat that's 0.5in wider. But WS has an inch more of seat pitch.

I guess it depends on whether one is wide or tall, I can see the advantages of either. I am can certainly see the advantages of the 2-3-2 Y cabin of a B767 over 3-3 in a B737. Rouge offers complimentary meals on the Atlantic, does Westjet? (I am curious, I honestly don't know).

In my opinion, the best part of Rouge is "Premium Rouge". For a couple hundred bucks more, you can fly in a domestic Business Class seat (2-2-2) , with upgraded service. (Similar to domestic J service). You also get Maple Leaf Lounge access, priority boarding and baggage handling. If I wanted to fly point to point on the Atlantic and didn't want to connect through LHR or FRA, Premium Rouge would be my choice.

USAirALB · Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:27 am

Does WestJet offer free meals on TATL?

YVRLTN · Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:12 am

Quoting cylw (Reply 27):
CUN-YVR is always an -800

YVR-HNL is also always 738.

Quoting by738 (Reply 17):
Looking at the CAA stats I would have thought the impact would have been far greater. ACr seem to be attracting their own pax or generating new pax same seems to go for US tp PHL. TS services dont appear to be reduced and are programmed for 3 destination again next year with YYZ 5+ weekly. I dont think TS will be losing any sleep.

My guess is AC's own pax who routed via LHR, particularly with the loss of BD providing Star connections (though I know AC have other interlines in place) and also particularly KL via AMS. I know a lot of people who have taken Rouge just for the convenience of avoiding a stop and backtracking from LHR or AMS.

Quoting Noise (Reply 2):
Wouldn't be surprised to see WS serving much of the British Isles in 3-5 years time

A toe in the water for when the widebodies are up and running or the arrival of the MAX.

Quoting Noise (Reply 2):
I assume the 763s will be flown from Toronto and Calgary to destinations across the pond.

Initially they will be used from YYC to Hawaii, but there are more plans in the pipeline too.

N1120A · Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:10 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 16):

On great circle mapper, the distance are in miles, not nautical miles, so for the YHZ-GLA route I get 2630 miles.

You can set it to SM, NM or KM

Quoting AirNovaBAe146 (Reply 21):

Bump it up slightly for ATC zig zags and that will be your total nautical mileage. I'd suspect it is in the upper range of what a -700 can do.

LAX-BOS-LAX is regularly operated by the shorter ranged 738/H and that route is 400nm longer.

Cipango · Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:28 am

Quoting jamesontheroad (Reply 4):
I seem to remember that AC's YYT-LHR flight is operated out and back by the same crew - is that possible here?

On the DUB route the crew changes over. I am sure the GLA flight would be the same in this case.

skipness1E · Sat Oct 04, 2014 8:52 am

Rouge do not serve GLA but having them at EDI was expected to dent TS at GLA. As to the AC822/823 YYT-LHR-YYT being operated by the same crew, it's on the ground at LHR for five hours after a night time transatlantic flight so I would imagine not.

longhauler · Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:49 am

Quoting jamesontheroad (Reply 4):
I seem to remember that AC's YYT-LHR flight is operated out and back by the same crew - is that possible here?

No, the YYT-LHR was always followed by a layover, even at the start of the operation with the day flight/night return.

The A320 ETOPS crews are based in YWG. It is a 5 or 6 day cycle (depending on the day of the week), with another leg attached to the crossing leg on this side of the Atlantic.

mpsrent · Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:33 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 3):
Wow i didn't know halifax and glasgow has such a big local market that it warrants a nonstop flight

Halifax is the capital of the province, Nova Scotia which is Latin for New Scotland. There are strong cultural ties between the people and the communities throughout the province with Scotland. You only need to look at the provincial flag to grasp the connection.

It's a natural connection. As a somewhat frequent traveller to the UK, any additional link is a bonus from my personal perspective.

Viscount724 · Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:47 pm

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 30):
Does WestJet offer free meals on TATL?

No. Same buy-on-board service as everywhere else.

It would be confusing and inconsistent to offer free food on YYT-DUB (or YHZ-GLA) when many of their other nonstop routes are as long or longer. YYT-DUB is shorter than YVR-YYZ. and YHZ-GLA is shorter than YVR-HNL, also shorter than their longest domestic nonstop (YYC-YYT).

SpaceshipDC10 · Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:59 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 37):
No. Same buy-on-board service as everywhere else.

It would be confusing and inconsistent to offer free food on YYT-DUB (or YHZ-GLA) when many of their other nonstop routes are as long or longer.

It's still the model of "you get what you paid for", and it's not the first time airlines had/have buy on board food over the Atlantic. In the rather distant past, Laker and People Express did it, for instance.

yyz717 · Sun Oct 05, 2014 1:38 am

What none of us know is how much of the DUB route this summer was YYT vs YYZ origin. Assume 50-50 which means (with an 80% LF) that 50 pax from each of YYZ and YYT flew the DUB route each way daily. Hence, WJ was making a small dent in each market and apparently was successful (given the additional October flights they added, and the recent announcement that the 2015 DUB route would start 6 weeks earlier next year).

Using the same assumptions with GLA, WJ could (or should) be successful by picking up (just) 50 pax from YYZ and adding 50 more in YHZ. DUB also had much more competition from YYZ (EI, AC Rouge, TS) than GLA will, which bodes well for the GLA route.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 31):
Quoting Noise (Reply 2):
I assume the 763s will be flown from Toronto and Calgary to destinations across the pond.

Initially they will be used from YYC to Hawaii, but there are more plans in the pipeline too.

While the 73G range forces a refuel in YHZ or YYT on the DUB and GLA routes, if the market was 90% YYZ origin then that suggests the market could support the 763 in due course, with the YYT stop being eliminated. Otherwise not, and the 73G will remain on those routes for the market demand from YHZ and YYT.

YYC to Hawaii will only be seasonal. What will be interesting is where WS will use the 763 in summer 2016...whether new TA markets, upgrading the DUB and GLA routes from YYZ eliminating the YYT and YHZ stops (assuming the traffic is 90% YYZ origin, which it might not be), or using them on domestic trunk routes such as YYZ-YYC or YVR.

Viscount724 · Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:55 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 39):
What none of us know is how much of the DUB route this summer was YYT vs YYZ origin. Assume 50-50 which means (with an 80% LF) that 50 pax from each of YYZ and YYT flew the DUB route each way daily.

Not only YYT and YYZ. You can also connect to the DUB flight from YHZ and many WS flights from other points in Canada connect to it at YYZ.

Examples:
YYC 1030 YYZ 1613
YYZ 1715 DUB 0700

YVR 0800 YYZ 1526
YYZ 1715 DUB 0700

YEG 0950 YYZ 1528
YYZ 1715 DUB 0700

There are many much slower connections than those. For example, from YVR to DUB, even the fastest connections using AC/BA nonstops to LHR, are less than 2 hours faster. And since fares are usually the #1 factor for most people, especially in a primarily leisure/VFR market like Ireland, if the fare is low enough I doubt many passengers mind the extra stop.

Thenoflyzone · Sun Oct 05, 2014 3:10 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 39):
or using them on domestic trunk routes such as YYZ-YYC or YVR.

Well, once the 4 birds are delivered (mid 2015), it is clear that they need to fly them within North America in order to receive ETOPS approval. So for sure you will see them operating from the west coast to the East coast. Once ETOPS approval is received, they will begin Hawaii ops from Alberta.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 39):
What will be interesting is where WS will use the 763 in summer 2016.

As for summer 2016 and which European/Asian cities will be served, I've been wondering the same thing.

Somehow I don't think WS will open up new TATL markets. They will put the 763s on tried and tested markets, such as YVR/YYC/YYZ-UK/Ireland and YUL-France. As for Asia, I'm guessing they might start YVR/YYC-ICN and/or NRT, seeing how they already codeshare with KE and JL.

With only 4 birds planned for 2015/2016, It will be interesting to see if they choose to fly to 3 or 4 international destinations daily, or rather open up 7 or 8 destinations and fly 3 to 4 weekly frequencies to each.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2014-10-04 20:13:38]

Whiteguy · Sun Oct 05, 2014 4:36 pm

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 41):
Well, once the 4 birds are delivered (mid 2015), it is clear that they need to fly them within North America in order to receive ETOPS approval. So for sure you will see them operating from the west coast to the East coast. Once ETOPS approval is received, they will begin Hawaii ops from Alberta.

First aircraft is scheduled to arrive in July, will be operated on various routes for crew training and ETOPS requirements. Second aircraft is scheduled to arrive in Nov, in time for the winter Hawaii season. Both will be operated from YYC and YEG to Hawaii. The next 2 aircraft should arrive before the 2016 summer season but no timeline for them yet.

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