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TC957
Topic Author
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BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 9:54 am

It's been reported in the financial pages of the weekend press that Willie Walsh is in China looking at a tie-up with one of the big Chinese airlines. Anyone else thinking that Hainan is a good bet ?
It seems the BA route to CTU isn't performing as expected and this has put doubts on BA's ability to go it alone with any more Chinese expansion.
Perhaps one answer is for HU to start to EDI or MAN, as has been rumoured, then BA could code share the service and feed if from the LHR shuttle flights for London-originating pax.
 
parapente
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:08 am

Interesting Would not surprise me one little bit.V sensible I would say.
 
by738
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:34 am

Quoting TC957 (Thread starter):
BA could code share the service and feed if from the LHR shuttle flights for London-originating pax.

No, that would be an unusual method for BA. Think they'll want a LHR operator or new LHR route (if indeed it is the Chinese long haul market they are after in a new partner and not regional connections). CTU is doing "ok" for this stage in its evolution, with cargo doing better than pax. It won't be going anywhere soon, and there are a number of other Chinese destination being examined to complement or if necessary replace CTU.
Remember London orginating pax are just part of BA's feed from Europe. Those pax will not be wanting a double stop route via LHR then MAN
 
LJ
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:55 am

Quoting TC957 (Thread starter):


It's been reported in the financial pages of the weekend press that Willie Walsh is in China looking at a tie-up with one of the big Chinese airlines. Anyone else thinking that Hainan is a good bet ?

Which other big Chinese airline is otherwise available? Unless they get someone to change alliances, there is no other option but Hainan.

Quoting by738 (Reply 2):
CTU is doing "ok" for this stage in its evolution, with cargo doing better than pax.

Cargo is probably the main reason to remain at CTU for every airline. KL doesn't send a 747 Combi to CTU because of the passenger load on this flight..
 
vv701
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:21 am

The Daily Telegraph is reporting:

'Mr Walsh said IAG has held talks with all three of the biggest Chinese carriers - China Southern, China Eastern and Air China - about a potential codeshare agreement'.
 
TC957
Topic Author
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:32 am

European originating pax have no need to go via LHR to China since FRA and AMS have more services there than LHR does.
 
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speedbored
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:46 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 3):
Unless they get someone to change alliances, there is no other option but Hainan.

You don't need to be in the same alliance to enter into code-share agreements.

Almost all the major airlines have code-share agreements with airlines in other alliances.
 
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teme82
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:04 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 5):
European originating pax have no need to go via LHR to China since FRA and AMS have more services there than LHR does

Add HEL to the list.  
Flying high and low
 
BestWestern
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:13 pm

This was also on the agenda before chengdu was opened. At that stage he was talking about a codeshare with Sichuan airlines, an excellent regional airline.

It should be no surprise that CTU LHR is a flop. As I have said for a long while, there is no - repeat NO gold at the end of the rainbow for longhaul routes from Chinese regional cities.

KL, the china experts, with the benefit of codeshares and alliance strength havent added frequency to china for a while.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
jman40
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:34 pm

I'd love to see Hainan join oneworld, which is quite absent from the China market (CX is a great airline, but they don't do intra-China). Anybody see any chance of that?
 
SYDSpotter
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 12:40 pm

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 8):
It should be no surprise that CTU LHR is a flop. As I have said for a long while, there is no - repeat NO gold at the end of the rainbow for longhaul routes from Chinese regional cities

A regional city with 14m people !!

QF have done codeshares with both CZ and MU, so there is nothing stopping BA from doing a codeshare with any of the big 3 Chinese carriers.
319_320_321_332_333_359_388 / 734_737_738_743_744_762_763_772_773_77W_788_789
 
Eirules
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:36 pm

Remember BA have a disadvantage compared to say LH or even KL to China in that most connections via LHR from Europe are back tracking. Only irish connections are going in the general direction and I can't imagine Ireland- CTU being a big market. BA would need very competitive fares to attract pax
The way you cut your meat reflects the way you live....
 
BestWestern
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 1:39 pm

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 10):

And a fantastic regional city in one of the best provinces in China. It's a pity however that their desire to travel overseas is limited mainly to ultra low yielding tour groups. Sichuan airlines international services are all government sponsored and funded for the pride of a global service.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
ba319-131
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 2:24 pm

Quoting jman40 (Reply 9):
I'd love to see Hainan join oneworld, which is quite absent from the China market

- So would I but there is the issue of Hong Kong Airlines, part of the Hainan Airlines group, CX won't like it.
111 732 733 734 735 736 73G 738 739,7M8 BBJ 741 742 743 744 752 753 762 763 764 772 77L 773 77W L15 D10 D30 D40 AB3 AB6 312 313 318 319 320 20N 321 21N 332 333 342 343 345 346 359 351 388 CS1 CS3 I86 154 SSJ CRJ CR7 CR9 CRK 145 170 175 220
 
SCQ83
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:05 pm

Quoting TC957 (Reply 5):
European originating pax have no need to go via LHR to China since FRA and AMS have more services there than LHR does.
Quoting EIRules (Reply 11):
Remember BA have a disadvantage compared to say LH or even KL to China in that most connections via LHR from Europe are back tracking.

I think you are missing the point about China-UK. London (or the UK) is not the reference capital in Europe for mainland Chinese (whether it is VFR, tourism or business). That is a big difference compared to many other cities/countries in the Anglosaxon / Commonwealth world (many of those in Asia): think of anywhere from New York, Toronto, Johannesburg, Lagos, Dubai, Mumbai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Sydney... for any of those places the strongest economic and VFR in Europe is by far in London (hence all the LHR services to those cities). That is not the case for China; for reasons A or B, Chinese need or want to travel more to Paris or Germany than to London, so that explains that FRA or CDG have far more services; it is not only about geography. London is not the center of the world for anyone out there.

You can look at trade numbers (Germany is 5 times as high as the UK), VFR (France has the largest Chinese community in Europe) or tourism (France receives about 6 times more Chinese tourists than the UK; even Austria or Switzerland have more Chinese tourists than the UK) to see that the local market is smaller than in other European capitals.
 
vv701
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:07 pm

Quoting jman40 (Reply 9):
I'd love to see Hainan join oneworld, which is quite absent from the China market (CX is a great airline, but they don't do intra-China).

Correct. But their subsidiary, KA does. Note the small blue circle with 'oneworld' titles between Door 1 and the forward cabin window here:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Changlin



KA operates to 22 mainland China destinations from their HKG hub. So there is a oneworld presence in the China market. What Walsh is looking for is a partnership that will provide BA direct flights between LHR and more Chinese destinations.
 
davidho1985
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 4:03 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 15):
22 mainland China destinations from their HKG hub

22 cities in China never qualify as a good market presence in China.
Any airline in China (except those newly established) serves X times of cities KA served. It is equal to an USA based airline which only serve 22 cities (and effectovly only 22 routes as all flights must be original from a single city i.e. HKG since KA is not allowed to operate domestic flight) in USA. Will you consider that airline has a good presence in USA?

In addition, KA can never operate a domestic flight in China, which means that all traffic must be connected via HKG.
Who want to travelling on a KA flight from China and then connect to a BA flight in HKG?
I am sure even CX would rather use KA's capacity for passangers connecting to their own CX flight instead.

[Edited 2014-10-04 09:05:58]

[Edited 2014-10-04 09:08:04]

[Edited 2014-10-04 09:08:39]
 
boysteve
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 10:21 pm

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 10):
A regional city with 14m people !!

Yes but you cannot compare a Chinese city population with that of a Developed county to gauge local O&D!

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 14):
France receives about 6 times more Chinese tourists than the UK;

Yes, this is partly dues to the Schengen agreement I believe. Tourists can apply for one Visa and with it visit Spain/Austria/Germany/France/Italy/Netherlands etc but for the UK they need a second 'stand-alone' visa. It is a pity that the UK government cannot be a bit less short sited, if a Chinese citizen has been given a visa for the Schengen area then maybe we should let them into the UK with limited extra formalities.
 
mdavies06
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sat Oct 04, 2014 11:52 pm

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 16):
Who want to travelling on a KA flight from China and then connect to a BA flight in HKG?

Except that this itinerary is done everyday in HKG. Just check out ba.com.
 
jman40
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:36 am

Quoting ba319-131 (Reply 13):
So would I but there is the issue of Hong Kong Airlines, part of the Hainan Airlines group, CX won't like it.

Ah yes. The deal breaker.

Quoting davidho1985 (Reply 16):
In addition, KA can never operate a domestic flight in China, which means that all traffic must be connected via HKG.

Exactly. KA is great, and I've connected via HKG to flights to/from China. But for China domestic, Skyteam and Star Alliance give me all I need, particularly from my base at PEK. Oneworld is absent. I know, I should change my alliance loyalty -- but I have all those miles tied up in oneworld!  
 
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EK413
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sun Oct 05, 2014 12:46 am

I don't see what's stopping BA from jumping into bed with CZ & MU. Would work hand in hand considering QF has agreements with both  

EK413
Good evening, ladies and gentlemen. We are tonight’s entertainment!
 
davidho1985
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sun Oct 05, 2014 2:53 am

Quoting mdavies06 (Reply 18):
Except that this itinerary is done everyday in HKG. Just check out ba.com.

Such Tie-up is intented to enable BA to access to more secondary cities in China that are not servered currently by KA (and highly unlikely in the future).Therefore, the new partner must be a China based carrier rather than KA.
 
EnviroTO
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sun Oct 05, 2014 7:41 am

BA should be trying to get CA to join CX in oneworld. With CA and CX tied together it seems that the options for serving China and getting the most out of the alliance are (a) preferably getting CA into the alliance, or (b) getting HU into the alliance which would probably tick CX off causing them to leave, but would lead to HX joining as well. The first option would immediately benefit oneworld and with CX being a well respected airline would be preferable, whereas the second option would be a longer term strategy to get coverage in China but would require HU, HX, and the rest of oneworld to add connections to Hong Kong and the places CX may have exclusively served.
 
BestWestern
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:38 am

Hong Kong airlines is a charter esque carrier carrying tour groups to and from Hong Kong to Mainland China on scheduled services or connecting them to places like Bali.

It has zero loyalty amongst the HK flying base. It should not stop the excellent (from a Chinese perspective) Hainan airlines joining Oneworld alliance.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
LJ
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Sun Oct 05, 2014 9:23 pm

Quoting EK413 (Reply 20):
I don't see what's stopping BA from jumping into bed with CZ & MU. Would work hand in hand considering QF has agreements with both

The big question is what can BA offer to MU, CZ or CA? QF can offer (and probably does offer) them access to the Australian domestic market, BA can offer them slots at LHR, but I doubt BA would do that.

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 8):
This was also on the agenda before chengdu was opened. At that stage he was talking about a codeshare with Sichuan airlines, an excellent regional airline.

Aren't they tied to CZ as well?
 
TWA85
Posts: 364
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:06 am

http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...veries-and-an-investor-hunt-188149

Read this article from CAPA a couple weeks ago. Could MU be in play for BA/IAG and maybe even JL & QF?
 
BestWestern
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Mon Oct 06, 2014 4:16 am

Quoting LJ (Reply 24):

Sichuan has an investment from CZ.

Quoting TWA85 (Reply 25):

Qantas has no cash, and has seriously annoyed MU over the fiasco of Jetstar HK. I cannot imagine the Chinese government allowing Japanese investment in a strategic industry. There is no strategic benefit in IAG investing in China Eastern. So many Sino joint ventures end in tears as the foreign companies have no control of the situation - just ask Lufthansa following their Jade cargo expensive learning.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
FlyboyOz
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:09 am

CX will not be happy cos CX doesn't want BA and other oneworld alliance's airlines to join chinese airlines.
The Spirit of AustraliAN - Longreach
 
jetblue1965
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RE: BA Looking At Tie-up With Chinese Airline

Mon Oct 06, 2014 6:39 am

Quoting EnviroTO (Reply 22):

LH just signed a very close partnership deal with CA (much more than regular code sharing). The chance of CA defecting to oneworld is equal to the chance of CX joining star

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