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KarelXWB
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Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:09 pm

Swiss will be adding 22 new European destinations to its Zurich network with the start of the 2015 summer schedules:

Quote:
From the start of the 2015 summer schedules, SWISS will be supplementing its traditional hub concept with a new point-to-point system and expanding its Zurich-based European network through the addition of 22 new destinations. Sixteen of the new points – Naples, Bari, Bilbao, Porto, Toulouse, Leipzig, Dresden, Graz, Gothenburg, Helsinki, Riga, Krakow, Ljubljana, Sarajevo, Sofia and Zagreb – will be provided with year-round service, while six of them – Palermo, Brindisi, Malta, Thessaloniki, Izmir and Santiago de Compostela – will be served in the summer months. Parallel to this, SWISS will also be expanding its range of services from and to Geneva, with the addition of 16 weekly Geneva-Lugano flights. The innovations will give SWISS a highly attractive timetable with more non-stop connections than ever, to meet the needs of the Swiss people, the Swiss economy and the Swiss tourist sector.

In addition to the new destinations, Swiss will introduce a new cabin product for its A320 and A321 fleet:

Quote:
SWISS will also be introducing extensive innovations for its European aircraft fleet. Work will begin this November on a number of enhancements to its Airbus A320s and A321s that will also increase their seating capacity. By adopting a new type of seat which offers more legroom than at present, the new configurations will offer passengers the same comfort levels as today, and even more comfort in the Business Class section. At the same time, capacity will be increased by 12 seats on the A320 and by 19 seats on the A321. The new cabin interiors (including the seat covers) will also be modified to the style already seen in the SWISS Lounges and on the long-haul fleet. The first A320-family aircraft with the new-style cabin will be back in service towards the end of November.

Source
http://www.swiss.com/corporate/EN/me...ress-releases/mediarelease20141006
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:13 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
At the same time, capacity will be increased by 12 seats on the A320 and by 19 seats on the A321.

Wow. I thought the current layout was dreadful. I didn't think it could get worse.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:14 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
By adopting a new type of seat which offers more legroom than at present, the new configurations will offer passengers the same comfort levels as today, and even more comfort in the Business Class section. At the same time, capacity will be increased by 12 seats on the A320 and by 19 seats on the A321.

Would they finally have a real business class, or this blocking-middle-seat nonsense they call "intra-Europe J"
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:24 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 2):
Would they finally have a real business class, or this blocking-middle-seat nonsense they call "intra-Europe J"

If they're already at 168 Y and going to 180, I'd imagine that middle seat nonsense continues. But hey they'll be competitive with Air Asia!
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
seat1a
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:33 pm

Any ideas on what the point-to-point routes will be outside of the Zurich hub?
 
teahan
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 7:54 pm

A320

Present: 168
New: 168+12 = 180 (the max the aircraft is presently certified to)

Compare this to

Lufthansa NEK: 168
BA new config: 168
Aer Lingus: 174
EasyJet: 180

A321

Present: 200
New: 200+19= 219 (220 is the max the aircraft is presently certified to)

Compare this to:

Lufthansa NEK: 190
BA new config: 205
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
If they're already at 168 Y and going to 180, I'd imagine that middle seat nonsense continues. But hey they'll be competitive with Air Asia!

at the rate they're going, they'll be competitive with greyhound soon
 
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N14AZ
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:07 pm

@ MaverickM11 and Jetblue1965: Swiss' current business class on intra-European flights is a shame and definetily not what you expect when boarding a plane with a Swiss cross on its tail.

But with numbers provided by teahan, I am not very confident it will get better...
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:20 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 7):

@ MaverickM11 and Jetblue1965: Swiss' current business class on intra-European flights is a shame and definetily not what you expect when boarding a plane with a Swiss cross on its tail.

But with numbers provided by teahan, I am not very confident it will get better...

just when I thought WINGS is the new LCC concept with LH group, LX Europe is taking it a whole different level
 
CRJ900
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:30 pm

Quoting teahan (Reply 5):
A321

Present: 200
New: 200+19= 219 (220 is the max the aircraft is presently certified to)

Compare this to:

Lufthansa NEK: 190

The updated seat map on Lufthansa.com shows 205 seats, but the first five middle seats are blocked, so they can operate with four cabin crew.

Wow, 180 seats on a SWISS A320 and 219 seats on a SWISS A321 - I never expected to see that. "Enhancement of the A320 and A321 cabins" indeed...
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:34 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
Wow, 180 seats on a SWISS A320 and 219 seats on a SWISS A321 - I never expected to see that. "Enhancement of the A320 and A321 cabins" indeed...

The inventor of the "slimline" seat design should start another Nobel Foundation
 
PhilInBRN
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 8:57 pm

Quoting seat1a (Reply 4):

Any ideas on what the point-to-point routes will be outside of the Zurich hub?

16 routes out of ZRH will be year round, 6 will be seasonal (weekly frequencies may vary depending on season):

- GOT 6/7 AR1 - no competition
- HEL 5/7 A32S - AY serves this route up to 4x daily
- DRS 12/7 AR1 - F7 serves this route 2x daily
- LEJ 6/7 AR1 - F7 serves this route 2x daily
- TLS 4/7 AR1 - no competition
- NAP 5/7 AR1 - AB served this route 2x weekly in S14
- RIX 3/7 A32S - BY serves this route daily
- GRZ 7/7 F100 - Intersky serves this route 3x daily
- KRK 4/7 AR1 - EuroLot serves this route 6x weekly
- LJU 7/7 AR1 - Adria serves this route 3x daily (with LX codeshare!)
- SJJ 3/7 AR1 - BH serves this route 2x weekly
- BIO 3/7 AR1 - no competition
- OPO up to 8/7 A32S - (was already served in S14) - TP serves this route daily
- SOF (frequency and equipment unknown) - Bulgaria serves this route 5x weekly
- BRI (frequency and equipment unknown) - no competition
- ZAG (frequency and equipment unknown) - Croatian flies this route 2x daily
- PMO 4/7 A32S - seasonal (was already served in S14) - no competition
- MLA 4/7 A32S - seasonal - Air Malta serves this route daily (with LX codeshare!)
- SKG 4/7 A32S - seasonal (was already served in S14) - no competition
- ADB 3/7 A32S - seasonal - XQ served this route 3x weekly in S14
- BDS 3/7 A32S - seasonal - AB and 2L served this route up to 5x weekly in S14
- SCQ 3/7 A32S - seasonal - VY served this route up to 6x weekly in S14
 
AntonovA330
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:31 pm

The irony is that 1) it is being sold as "enhancement" and 2) due to a new seat design, they claim comfort will stay the same. 180 seats in an A320 equals to 28"-29" pitch.. The only "good" thing to remains is that the majority of the destinations are generally between 1-2 hours only...

[Edited 2014-10-06 14:38:34]
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teahan
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:34 pm

With Swiss configuring their CS100 with 125 seats (max certified capacity), I guess we shouldn't be surprised to see A320s with 180 seats and A321s with 219 seats.

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
The updated seat map on Lufthansa.com shows 205 seats, but the first five middle seats are blocked, so they can operate with four cabin crew.

200 is what Swiss has now and now we see another 3 or so rows added to that.

How long until the rest of the LH Group airlines follow?
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
teahan
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:45 pm

One more for the list.

A320

Air France (Europe configuration): 165 seats

A321


Air France (Europe configuration): 200 seats

I have no problem with high density cabins but I do see an issue with selling this as an enhancement for customers. It wasn't that long ago (2006-2007) that LX A320s were flying with 150 seats and A321s with 174 (?) seats.
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
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HELyes
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Mon Oct 06, 2014 9:51 pm

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 11):
- HEL 5/7 A32S - AY serves this route up to 4x daily

So good the get Swiss metal back in HEL after a break!

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
219 seats on a SWISS A321 - I never expected to see that.

That sounds a lot... Finnair's new A321ER "Sharklet" has 209 seats, will know tomorrow how that feels on a 6h flight HEL-LPA.
 
LXLucien
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:50 am

What's the difference of adding 16 seats when you have the same legroom and pitch?
If they would squeeze in 20 more PAX with less legroom and pitch, I would understand the upset... but like this?
I don't see a problem with that and seeing that a lot of routes on certain days are always booked out, it only makes sense of increasing the capacity.

According to LX they will scale down the galley and reposition the toilets, so they will get more space in the cabin for the additional rows.

But the business intra Europe is really not that great, on the other hand it makes them very flexible. Got no C-PAX today? Just move the curtain and you've got yourself some more Y seats...

But I will have to try it out before I praise it too much  The first one will be out in November.

Quoting seat1a (Reply 4):
Any ideas on what the point-to-point routes will be outside of the Zurich hub?

Apart from GVA - LUG there are no news about routes from GVA. In an internal movie leaked to the public last week, they talk about adding routes to GVA... so I guess we'll have to wait.
I expect more routes from GVA when they will get the first C-Series, but for now I don't see where they could get the aircraft from to fly more routes...

[Edited 2014-10-06 21:53:02]
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kurtverbose
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:59 am

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 11):
- SJJ 3/7 AR1 - BH serves this route 2x weekly

I don't know about that, I couldn't find any direct flights.

Some great new destinations.
 
ncelhr
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:02 am

Quoting LXLucien (Reply 16):
What's the difference of adding 16 seats when you have the same legroom and pitch?
If they would squeeze in 20 more PAX with less legroom and pitch, I would understand the upset... but like this?
I don't see a problem with that and seeing that a lot of routes on certain days are always booked out, it only makes sense of increasing the capacity.

The problem is that there is no miracle. Adding 16 seats means changing legroom & pitch. It's just the way they measure them is different, so it looks the same but ultimately it's a terrible development.

Many European airlines are playing this game now. I fly every week. This is becoming such a disgrace that I am increasingly flying EasyJet because their seats are starting to feel comfortable compared to the new rubbish product being rolled out by accountants in other airlines - accountants that have obviously never flown extensively in Europe.

It's a disgrace - and I have no sympathy for European legacy airlines when they squeeze Pax in such inhumane ways whilst overpaying their pilots.   
 
sandrozrh
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:08 am

Quoting ncelhr (Reply 18):
It's a disgrace - and I have no sympathy for European legacy airlines when they squeeze Pax in such inhumane ways whilst overpaying their pilots

Wow, I expected to read such a comment in the comments line of a third tier tabloid papers online issue, but certainly not on a proclaimed "civil aviation forum".

Guess what? Easyjets pilots make about the same as us, those that aren't on third party contracts anyway. And that should be forbidden, but that's a whole other topic.

Oh and has anybody realised that the seat pitch in business class will actually increase? No, I guess not..
 
okay
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:51 am

Good to see SWISS back in Helsinki! Welcome!  
 
r2rho
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:23 am

Oh great, yet another "cabin enhancement" on a European legacy carrier. With this and the 10-abreast 777's coming in, Swiss definitely abandons its premium airline image for good. What's the point of a "premium" carrier configuring its aircraft to the maximum certified high-density seating - might as well just give it all to WINGS, no?

Swiss already has slim seats in its A32x fleet - therefore this comes at expense of seat pitch no matter how they try to phrase it. Perhaps to maintain "comfort" in the front rows, the rear rows will be reduced to 29".

Quoting sandrozrh (Reply 19):
has anybody realised that the seat pitch in business class will actually increase?

Which would seem to confirm that the rear will be at 29"...

Quoting ncelhr (Reply 18):
I am increasingly flying EasyJet because their seats are starting to feel comfortable compared to the new rubbish product

Funny, I have the same feeling. Some LCC's are now actually starting to feel "comfortable" compared to the "enhanced cabins" being introduced by the legacies.

Quoting ncelhr (Reply 18):
The problem is that there is no miracle. Adding 16 seats means changing legroom & pitch. It's just the way they measure them is different, so it looks the same but ultimately it's a terrible development.

Agree. No matter how they try to word it in the press releases, or how they try to (re)measure seat pitch, as a regular passenger I have felt a net reduction of seat pitch in the past years on the new enhanced cabins of legacy carriers.
 
teahan
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:36 am

Quoting sandrozrh (Reply 19):

Oh and has anybody realised that the seat pitch in business class will actually increase? No, I guess not..

That was mentioned in the press release but I hoped they were not talking about pitch. This means increased pitch in the first few rows at the cost of all the other rows (in aircraft configured at their maximum capacity).

---

I really fail to see how they can add 12 seats (to 168 already slimline seats) or 19 seats (to 200 already slimline seats), increase pitch for first few rows at the expense of the others, and continue to claim that all passengers will enjoy the same or increased comfort. Something does not add up.

Going beyond seat pitch, let's not forget some other elements of passenger comfort:
- More passengers sharing the same overhead luggage space (when more fares will not allow for checked luggage);
- More passengers sharing the same number of toilets (and that's assuming the number of these is not decreased);
- Longer boarding and disembarkation times, decreased time per passenger for service, etc.

It sounds just as premium as EasyJet.
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
offloaded
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:43 am

Quoting r2rho (Reply 21):
Quoting ncelhr (Reply 18):
I am increasingly flying EasyJet because their seats are starting to feel comfortable compared to the new rubbish product

Funny, I have the same feeling. Some LCC's are now actually starting to feel "comfortable" compared to the "enhanced cabins" being introduced by the legacies.

  

Same story at BA and the "new" Club Europe. It comes to something when you can get more legroom on FR or U2 by choosing the right seat.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
DALCE
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 11:49 am

I honestly wonder why everybody is always screaming on forehand about declining comfort, seatpitch, 10 abrest seating etc etc.
90% of those complaining people are yet searching the internet for the cheapest option in the world about how to travel from A to B, not willing to pay a price which is profitable for an airline.

True, pax comfort standard is getting lower in Economy, but the prices did too. It's not out of luxury that airlines are implementing Y+ or whatever slick marketing name for a product which is comparable with the old Y-class. (albeit mostly on long-haul at this point of time)
Today it's Swiss, yesterday it was AF and tomorrow it's TP who gets the blame. These companies are commercial enterprises and need to make money, otherwise they cease to exist and all of us have no other choice but travelling with the U2's and FR's of this world.
Let's face it, the European skies are overwhelmed and overcrowded by low-yield / high turn-over companies giving inferior service levels. These airlines exist party because of us people who want to pay less for an airline ticket across Europe than they do for parking in downtown Amsterdam,Berlin or Paris. Even a freaky trainticket from Amsterdam to Maastricht is more expensive than flying on Easyjet from AMS to FCO......

It's not nice, but the market leads the airlines to take these measures!
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,CS3,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
P206
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 12:00 pm

Quoting PhilInBRN (Reply 11):
- LJU 7/7 AR1 - Adria serves this route 3x daily (with LX codeshare!)

I'm hoping for some more reasonable ticket prices from LX,the JP has ridiculous price tag around 200-230 € for a return flight in cramped and old CRJ200 or 900,and that's for 50-55 minutes of flight time in each direction

[Edited 2014-10-07 05:02:15]
 
ytz
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:07 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 9):
Enhancement

It's right out of Orwell's 1984. It's airline Newspeak.
 
r2rho
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:07 pm

Quoting dalce (Reply 24):
I honestly wonder why everybody is always screaming on forehand about declining comfort, seatpitch, 10 abrest seating etc etc.
90% of those complaining people are yet searching the internet for the cheapest option in the world about how to travel from A to B, not willing to pay a price which is profitable for an airline.

Because the other 10% is here on a.net, and airlines do not sufficiently cater for this segment, nor do they have a means of differentiating their economy product on search engines etc so that pax can be made aware of seat pitch, service levels, etc. Hence, economy travel becomes a commodity.
I fully agree with you that in this market situation, the airlines have no choice. That doesn't mean we'll stop complaining though  
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 2:09 pm

Quoting dalce (Reply 24):
90% of those complaining people are yet searching the internet for the cheapest option in the world about how to travel from A to B, not willing to pay a price which is profitable for an airline.

I agree, but at least add some amenities to make it less painful. Every time I fly LX/LH narrowbodies, there's no wifi, no power, no IFE (that Just for Laffs bs does not count), no sound, no nothin'. And there is no meal on earth to make up for it. If it was 180 seats on a 320, wifi, and power ports, that'd be a decent product.

Quoting sandrozrh (Reply 19):
Oh and has anybody realised that the seat pitch in business class will actually increase? No, I guess not..

Is it? If so it's not by much and it's still ultimately 6 abreast, no matter how many seats you close off. I really can't believe anyone pays for "business".
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
runway23
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting LXLucien (Reply 16):
Apart from GVA - LUG there are no news about routes from GVA. In an internal movie leaked to the public last week, they talk about adding routes to GVA... so I guess we'll have to wait.

In the current schedule that LX has loaded for GVA-LUG the plane has about 5 hours in the middle of the day during weekdays and pretty much the whole of Saturday and Sunday where it just sits in GVA presently.

If I had to guess they will attack F7 on GVA-FLR with that aircraft and on the weekend use it for BIQ, VLC or IBZ. Basically anything that F7 flies ex-GVA and that LX doesn't fly yet.

Apparently there was a quote in the press in GVA that routes ex-GVA are still to be announced. Hopefully LX will tackle their main problem in GVA: a dreadful schedule with poor frequencies vs. easyJet/competition. Case in point the example of flying GVA-FCO 5x weekly during the middle of the day when all other carriers (AZ, F7, U2) have morning/evening frequencies on a daily basis. Or flying GVA-LED departing at 6AM, a time at which the flight has 0 connections and nobody can get to in time - as a result that route will terminate at the end of March next year. The same can be said for many other routes ex-GVA.

What LX has shown ex-ZRH is that their current strategy isn't P2P, it's to keep a fortress hub and kick all other carriers out. I'm sure within a year of this half of the carriers on the routes LX are starting will no longer fly these. After which LX will resume their aggressive pricing ex-ZRH. Anyone who comes back in on other new routes will get the same treatment. LX has already done this in the past ex-GVA then retreated out of markets and come back in afterwards.

I think it's quite clear that after all of this, there are almost no routes that F7 will fly where LX won't be head to head up against them. One can wonder how long until F7 bleeds all it's money - knowing that it will be difficult for Etihad to pump money into them legally (there's nothing like a FF program they can use an excuse this time, such as what they did with AB) and with Etihad's recent purchase of Alitalia, having Darwin under their umbrella might not make as much sense anymore, especially if LX/LH declares a full on war.

Quoting teahan (Reply 14):
I have no problem with high density cabins but I do see an issue with selling this as an enhancement for customers. It wasn't that long ago (2006-2007) that LX A320s were flying with 150 seats and A321s with 174 (?) seats.

The problem is back then LX seemingly had a lot more trouble filling planes but still got a fairly good yield out of it. Today the contrary is true, LX can fill planes but they do so at a lower yield. Add into the equation that LX's costs are above an LCC and increasing capacity to bring down the unit costs is something they need to do.

For 1-2 hour flights I doubt most people will really notice and even if they do all other carriers pack them in like sardines anyways. Of course those who get subject to these seats on longer flights (say to Canaries, RAK, DME, TLV, etc...) will probably really enjoy the 'new comfort'.

Quoting seat1a (Reply 4):
Any ideas on what the point-to-point routes will be outside of the Zurich hub?

The P2P routes are actually from ZRH and GVA. LX won't be flying any routes that don't touch either hub/base. The BSL operation will shortly be replaced by Eurowings and I suppose that might be a test to see how LX routes perform after being transferred to a LCC. If it works then I expect some/all of GVA to go the same way and a few routes ex-ZRH to get the same treatment.

Quoting sandrozrh (Reply 19):
Oh and has anybody realised that the seat pitch in business class will actually increase? No, I guess not..

Because in reality it won't. Between the first row and the exit rows LX can't physically fit in an extra row. So as they are putting in new seats a certain number (first 3/5 or all rows until the exit row?) will seemingly have more leg room. In reality though it will be the same number of seats.

Behind the exit row, however with the lavatory/galley being modified and tighter seats, LX will get its extra seats. It's pretty much exactly what BA have done also and sitting behind an exit row on pretty much any European carrier from now on will be pure hell.

It's funny how LX say these new seats will be enjoyable for flyers whereas those who have flown LH NEK know how enjoyable they are.
 
teahan
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:22 pm

Quoting runway23 (Reply 29):
Because in reality it won't. Between the first row and the exit rows LX can't physically fit in an extra row. So as they are putting in new seats a certain number (first 3/5 or all rows until the exit row?) will seemingly have more leg room. In reality though it will be the same number of seats.

Behind the exit row, however with the lavatory/galley being modified and tighter seats, LX will get its extra seats. It's pretty much exactly what BA have done also and sitting behind an exit row on pretty much any European carrier from now on will be pure hell.

I agree but where BA have put 168 / 205 in their recent new configuration, LX will now put 180 / 219.

Combine this maximum certified capacity with increased pitch for the first few rows, the LX seat pitch (and arguably seat comfort) for the majority of passengers will be measurably less than that of just about any other airline in Europe.
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
UALWN
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
Every time I fly LX/LH narrowbodies, there's no wifi, no power, no IFE (that Just for Laffs bs does not count), no sound, no nothin'.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):
If it was 180 seats on a 320, wifi, and power ports, that'd be a decent product.

With a typical stage length for the LH/LX narrowbodies between one and two hours, there's hardly any need for wifi, power or movies. The situation is different in the US, where one routinely flies in narrow bodies for 3 to 5 or 6 hours.
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runway23
Posts: 2311
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:12 am

RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 5:01 pm

Quoting teahan (Reply 30):
Combine this maximum certified capacity with increased pitch for the first few rows, the LX seat pitch (and arguably seat comfort) for the majority of passengers will be measurably less than that of just about any other airline in Europe.

Agreed, but seeing that LX had already decided to configure the CS-100 at their maximum seating capacity this is hardly a surprise. In fact if LX could fit 6 wide on the CS-100s they would. Fortunately that aircraft (when it actually does get to it) will be certified at 125.

The fact that the Avro fleet have not been reconfigured seems to speak volumes for the fact that LX will get them out of their fleet very quickly.

At least the good news is that the colour of the seats in the short haul aircraft will match those in the lounge and long haul aircraft. I'm sure many people will care about the colour of the seat they are in when they will barely be able to squeeze into it.

Quoting sandrozrh (Reply 19):
Guess what? Easyjets pilots make about the same as us, those that aren't on third party contracts anyway. And that should be forbidden, but that's a whole other topic.

I hardly believe that is the case. If it were then LX would not be seeking to dish out 77W flying to Swiss European. There are still some salary gaps between LX, easyJet and the ME3(4).

You can also add into the mix the fact that there are salary gaps between mainline (Swiss) and regional (Swiss European) pilots. Then on top of that the salary gaps between FA's at each of these entities and salary gaps for the FAs based in ZRH and those based in GVA. Some of which would be paid more working at Migros than at Swiss...

It's quite clear that the aircraft capacity and newer technology is the first step. The second step in Swiss' race to the bottom will be aligning costs of all employees with whatever they can use as the lowest benchmark out there.

I'm also still waiting for LX to extend their paying hand baggage concept to ZRH and pretend they are passing the savings on to the consumer, when in fact the price will stay the same as what it is today. To me with the additional seats and the way LX is going, this will be next.
 
laca773
Posts: 2080
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:02 pm

Okay. Who has the most comfortable Y cabin ? It seems they are all the same for the most part......
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17812
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:11 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 31):
With a typical stage length for the LH/LX narrowbodies between one and two hours, there's hardly any need for wifi, power or movies.

I've really only flown 2-3 hour stages on LX/LH, and it is easily the worst Y product, or F product out there. I'm sure it's less awful on shorter hops, but why not put wifi? DY has wifi. Free even.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:17 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 2):
Would they finally have a real business class, or this blocking-middle-seat nonsense they call "intra-Europe J"

That's not going to change. Works just fine in Europe where flights are short. I'd much rather have an empty middle seat. Other benefits are more important like lounge access, priority boarding, better food, free drinks etc. Demand on European routes varies too much from route to route and day to day to make a fixed J cabin with larger seats economic. Most of those seats will be empty much of the time.

Quoting LXLucien (Reply 16):
What's the difference of adding 16 seats when you have the same legroom and pitch?

You can't add rows of seats without reducing the pitch (unless you remove galleys, lavatories etc.) You can increase effective legroom by making the seatbacks thinner which most carriers are now doing, but the pitch itself (distance between the same points on adjacent rows of seats) can't stay the same. Legroom and pitch aren't the same thing.
 
UALWN
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 34):
I've really only flown 2-3 hour stages on LX/LH, and it is easily the worst Y product, or F product out there.

A little bit of an hyperbole? LH/LX in Y is not noticeably different from BA or AF/KL, is arguably better than UA (Airbuses in Y-), DL (McDs) or AA (McDs), and surely better than the LCCs and other legacies like IB or AZ.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 6:39 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 36):
, is arguably better than UA (Airbuses in Y-), DL (McDs) or AA (McDs),

I would take UA/AA any day of the week over LX/LH in Y and especially in F. I can reliably get wifi on those M80s, most UA, and power as well. Plus I can get Y+ or MCE on just about every aircraft, at booking if you have status. On LX? A terrible meal and something silent on the overheads.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
User avatar
N14AZ
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 7:15 pm

Well, seems as if we all have to start reading again. They said it'll be an enhancement. They just didn't specify who will benefit from this enhancement. How childish from us to believe they meant the passengers...   
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:25 pm

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 17):
I don't know about that, I couldn't find any direct flights.

Some great new destinations.

I guess that's because their 'direct' flight has a stop in Banja Luka. Interestingly enough, JA will lose its monopoly from both Banja Luka and Sarajevo since Edelweiss will launch two weekly flights to the capital of Republika Srpska from June 2015.
 
DALCE
Posts: 1932
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2007 7:45 pm

RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:45 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
I would take UA/AA any day of the week over LX/LH in Y and especially in F. I can reliably get wifi on those M80s, most UA, and power as well. Plus I can get Y+ or MCE on just about every aircraft, at booking if you have status. On LX? A terrible meal and something silent on the overheads.

After a couple of basically the same replies from you, I guess we have your point. You are biased against LX & LH, fine.

Next....
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,CS3,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 8:52 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
I would take UA/AA any day of the week over LX/LH in Y and especially in F. I can reliably get wifi on those M80s, most UA, and power as well. Plus I can get Y+ or MCE on just about every aircraft, at booking if you have status. On LX? A terrible meal and something silent on the overheads.

I fail to understand your comparison. How could UA/AA domestic aircraft ever be an alternative to LX/LH within Europe? It doesn't make any sense. LX/LH European flights aren't competing with UA/AA within the US, and versa. The markets and requirements are very different.
 
UALWN
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:03 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 37):
would take UA/AA any day of the week over LX/LH in Y and especially in F.

I would only take UA because as a Premier Gold I can book on E+. A few years ago I failed to qualify and ended up in E- on a couple of flights. No thanks. But we are not talking about E+. As an elite, I can also book seat 11A on LH's A321s. More space than in any F class seat in domestic USA. But that's not a fair comparison, since not everybody is elite.
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LXA340
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:11 pm

With reducing galley space even further, I hope this will bring back consistent double daily long haul aircraft service to TLV and CAI. Unless SWISS will start to serve sandwiches in Economy Class and a mini tray snack meal in Business Class as I know that storage capacity in the Galley on an A32S is already now at full capacity when the flight to these destinations is served by such an aircraft. Not to mention that these "NEK" seats are bearable for one to max two hours, but for longer flights than that they are a killer for the back... Hence the current Recaro seats found on most Short/Medium haul aircraft of LX are much more comfortable.
 
DALCE
Posts: 1932
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:15 pm

TLV will be 3/14 ops by 32S + 11/14 ops with 330/340
CAI will be 4/7 ops by 32S only....no more widebodies to CAI

As per WTT Oct26 2014
flown: F50,F70,CR1,CR2,CR9,CS3,E75,E90,143,AR8,AR1,733,735,736,73G,738,
753,763,744,77W,788,319,320,321,333,AB6.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 17812
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:42 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 42):
I would only take UA because as a Premier Gold I can book on E+. A few years ago I failed to qualify and ended up in E- on a couple of flights. No thanks. But we are not talking about E+. As an elite, I can also book seat 11A on LH's A321s

You can still buy Y+, or wifi, or IFE or a meal if you want one. You don't have any of those options on EU carriers. It's all Y, all the time, zero amenities beyond a croissant. And that's today, before they add a dozen more seats to a 320.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41):
How could UA/AA domestic aircraft ever be an alternative to LX/LH within Europe?

Seriously? I think the better question is why even bother with LX if U2 has the same configuration?

Quoting dalce (Reply 40):
After a couple of basically the same replies from you, I guess we have your point. You are biased against LX & LH, fine.

No bias. Any all Y narrowbody operation of an EU network carrier qualifies. AF/KL/BA/SK/OS/IB/TP all fall into the same category.

Quoting dalce (Reply 44):
CAI will be 4/7 ops by 32S only....no more widebodies to CAI

3.5 hours. 180Y. Enjoy.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
teahan
Posts: 4994
Joined: Sun Nov 21, 1999 11:18 pm

RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 9:57 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
3.5 hours. 180Y. Enjoy.

ZRH-CAI is closer to 4 hours than 3.5.
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
 
Viscount724
Posts: 19316
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Tue Oct 07, 2014 10:06 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 41):
How could UA/AA domestic aircraft ever be an alternative to LX/LH within Europe?

Seriously? I think the better question is why even bother with LX if U2 has the same configuration?

I live near GVA and LX fares on many of their routes from GVA are often lower than EasyJet, and EasyJet doesn't have a frequent flyer program, airport lounges or many other services offered by LX. And on EasyJet you pay for all food and drinks, even water. On LX even beer and wine are free in Y class.

I would only fly EasyJet if their fares were significantly lower or to a destination that had no other service.

[Edited 2014-10-07 15:14:07]
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:06 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 45):
You can still buy Y+, or wifi, or IFE or a meal if you want one.

But the difference, again, is that my typical UA narrow body experience consists on a 738 between EWR and SFO (after "enjoying" a 757 on BCN-EWR), while my typical LX experience is an A321 on ZRH-BCN (after flying an A343 SFO-ZRH). So it's 1.5 hours vs. 6. There's much less need for wifi, IFE or even a meal, which is, anyway, provided for free in some form or another, together with all sort of alcoholic or nonalcoholic drinks.
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MaverickM11
Posts: 17812
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RE: Swiss: 22 New EU Routes And Major Cabin Overhaul

Wed Oct 08, 2014 3:15 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 48):
But the difference, again, is that my typical UA narrow body experience consists on a 738 between EWR and SFO (after "enjoying" a 757 on BCN-EWR), while my typical LX experience is an A321 on ZRH-BCN (after flying an A343 SFO-ZRH). So it's 1.5 hours vs. 6.

If you travel to the Middle East/CIS/parts of Africa on an EU carrier you have the reverse. Imagine being taken by Mercedes from your LH 380 F seat, to the F terminal, to a Y seat on a 320 to CAI. Or from LX J transatlantic to a 321 Y to DME. I can't fathom how people would choose 180Y over F/Y+/Y on any similar stage length; then again in Europe there really isn't an onboard choice.
E pur si muove -Galileo

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