AA Trimming CLT International Routes

cessna2 · Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:09 pm

I think the writing was on the wall for this. Will be interesting to see what is left for summer 2015.

http://www.thestreet.com/story/12904...-service-as-merger-takes-hold.html

American spokeswoman Michelle Mohr said Monday that Charlotte's role is to "connect north and south traffic along the East Coast corridor, in addition to being an important (international) gateway.

Charlotte has more connectivity, but it has a much smaller (origin and destination) market," Mann said. The only downside, he said, is that MIA's cost per emplaned passenger, which the airlines pay, is far higher. At Charlotte, the cost in 2012 was 97 cents, while Miami's cost was $19.72, according to Fitch.

CLT's cost are significantly lower. Is this just an alignment of assets or a clear shift in power?

Thoughts?

nc3rd · Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:20 pm

I would expect to see LHR, CDG, FRA, and MAD survive in some fashion. The new routes started this year were never going to work in the new OneWorld.

B757capt · Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:20 pm

Ted Reed is an idiot. These are seasonal adjustments that occur all of the time.

Just silly.

If this massive pull-down of fiction happens as so many say, i will eat crow. Until then Ted Reed is an idiot.

MIflyer12 · Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:24 pm

It's a poor article, not actually citing any CLT destinations to get whacked other than GIG & GRU, already announced. What's the point - a PR placement just to soften up the CLT crowd for the blows to come?

mhkansan · Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:24 pm

AA will leverage its lower costs at CLT for international routes. AA needs networkability to compete, and you can't connect all the dots to MIA or NYC. Its far cheaper to network those flights over CLT and PHL (and DFW) and leave the congested and expensive hubs for international connecting traffic and O & D. US has been doing this for years and its not going to change in the merger. Routes that don't make financial sense will be cut, just as they always have.

AeroWesty · Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:29 pm

Quoting B757capt (Reply 2):
Ted Reed is an idiot. These are seasonal adjustments that occur all of the time.

Take a deep breath, this is what Ted Reed wrote:

Quote:
Meanwhile, Charlotte has lost its non-stop service to Brazil, with a Sao Paulo flight ending Oct. 1 and a Rio flight scheduled to end next year. Charlotte's summer list of 10 non-stop Europe destinations seems very likely to diminish next summer. The outlook seems bleak for the four destinations announced in October 2013.

Everyone knew Brazil would go. The 4 new destinations in Oct/13 were BCN, LIS, BRU and MAN. I didn't read where he was talking about seasonal reductions, he was speculating about permanent route cancellations.

Care to rephrase?

MaverickM11 · Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:35 pm

Quoting cessna2 (Thread starter):
Thoughts?

Bring on the billion dollar addition!

SLCSFOPDX · Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:38 pm

I personally do not see a need for an AA hub in CLT. MIA will cover the Latin America and Caribbean flying for the new AA. Between DFW, MIA, I think the south is pretty well covered. DL will always be king in that region, so no surprise that CLT will most likely be only a domestic hub with a few international destinations such as CUN, PUJ, and YYZ.

I think CLT within 3-5 years will no longer be an AA hub. Maybe a focus city but not a true hub. Charlotte has a great economy so I am sure at least one or two airlines will come in and make CLT a focus city. Perhaps F9 (if they're still around by then).

USAirALB · Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:45 pm

This article doesn't say anything...

GRU and GIG are both long gone, and BCN/LIS/BRU/MAN will be cut and aren't in the schedules for next summer.

AFAIK, nothing else will be cut for 2015. I've even heard that DUB may go year-round once new equipment arrive, and that MAN may make a reappearance in 2016.

usairways85 · Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:56 pm

Old News...other than the changes announced months ago there has been no update on the S15 schedule

nc3rd · Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:57 pm

CLT will absolutely survive as a domestic hub. Charlotte is the key piece of the puzzle that AA was missing and they aren't going to give it up now. Most of the country lives in between NYC and MIA and CLT is the most logical place to connect. Passengers aren't going to go with AA if it means connecting in ORD or DFW just to go from Upstate NY to South Carolina.

PEK777 · Wed Oct 08, 2014 7:58 pm

Shut 'er down, boys!

burchfiel · Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:03 pm

Quoting SLCSFOPDX (Reply 7):
Between DFW, MIA, I think the south is pretty well covered.

Dallas is around 900 miles from CLT and Miami is about 670 miles. Furthermore, if you're traveling from the Southeast US to the East Coast, you're heading in the wrong direction if you're flying to either airport.

AVLAirlineFreq · Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:04 pm

Quoting SLCSFOPDX (Reply 7):
I personally do not see a need for an AA hub in CLT.

Quoting SLCSFOPDX (Reply 7):
I think CLT within 3-5 years will no longer be an AA hub.

Why does every story or thread about trimming international capacity at CLT inevitably lead to this conclusion by some a.netters?

strfyr51 · Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:05 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
Quote:Meanwhile, Charlotte has lost its non-stop service to Brazil, with a Sao Paulo flight ending Oct. 1 and a Rio flight scheduled to end next year. Charlotte's summer list of 10 non-stop Europe destinations seems very likely to diminish next summer. The outlook seems bleak for the four destinations announced in October 2013.

Firm Grasp on the Obvious wouldn't you say? The Route was leased from United and had to be returned when they left *A. That was announced Months ago.
Why then is this news?? One route does not make a Hub! CLE still gas Brazil connections via MIA and it's an EXCELLENT hub unless Parker completely Botches it!
I think AAG might find it hard to keep all their hubs at the pre merger levels. Even though they're the largest they Still have to play to the strengths of the other hubs and where they
might make the Most money. If CLT doesn't pan out? CLT will STILL Prosper because the LCC's will make it an open City and I could again see
United put 16-18 flights per day back in there. CLT is a Hi -tech area and the city is Vibrant.. I'd live there in a heartbeat.
Big cities are Nice with a lot to do . But after you've lived in the biggest in the USA? They kind of get to be "old hat".
Charlotte is a place to kick it!

OB1504 · Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:12 pm

Quoting SLCSFOPDX (Reply 7):
I personally do not see a need for an AA hub in CLT. MIA will cover the Latin America and Caribbean flying for the new AA. Between DFW, MIA, I think the south is pretty well covered. DL will always be king in that region, so no surprise that CLT will most likely be only a domestic hub with a few international destinations such as CUN, PUJ, and YYZ.

I think CLT within 3-5 years will no longer be an AA hub. Maybe a focus city but not a true hub. Charlotte has a great economy so I am sure at least one or two airlines will come in and make CLT a focus city. Perhaps F9 (if they're still around by then).

CLT's future is secured. Some international routes may be cut, but CLT fills an important hole that cannot be covered by DFW and MIA without a significant amount of backtracking. Between the three, AA will finally have a formidable presence in the South and they can build their own domestic fortress hub at CLT. AA will dehub CLT on the same day they dehub DFW and MIA.

uberflieger · Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:17 pm

C'mon guys, it's 'The Street' we're talking about. They're all about 'marketing' meaning exposure for advertisement revenue - not about substance.
There's absolutely no news here! Just some re-hashing of what's already totally clear. CLT will be American's Mega hub for East Coast North-South traffic with very few International destinations in the mix.

airbazar · Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:19 pm

Quoting SLCSFOPDX (Reply 7):
I personally do not see a need for an AA hub in CLT

There is no other hub that can replace it. MIA is a significant backtrack for a lot of the Southeast, and DCA/PHL/JFK don't currently have the capacity to grow.

Mainliner · Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:22 pm

Quoting AVLAirlineFreq (Reply 13):
Why does every story or thread about trimming international capacity at CLT inevitably lead to this conclusion by some a.netters?

Because they don't like the carpet in the terminal!

CLT will absolutely remain a hub.

TWA772LR · Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:28 pm

So since people are speculating AA will significantly reduce CLT, if not close it, let's speculate on who will move in.

My vote is UA. Its a true SE USA hub and big economy to warrant transcontinental service, but not too big to interfere with IAH or IAD.

point2point · Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:30 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 4):
Routes that don't make financial sense will be cut, just as they always have.

Quoting uberflieger (Reply 16):
CLT will be American's Mega hub for East Coast North-South traffic with very few International destinations in the mix.

Of course...... and the carriers have figured out that there really isn't all that much $$$$$ in catering to connect pax..... and CLT has the highest rate of connect pax of all of the major airports in the U.S. at some 75%. Even with the low airport costs..... it's the O&D that put profits in the carriers coffers', and with only some 25% O&D at CLT, well......

I can see CLT being rightsized by the new AA altogether to a point where it's pulling about a 40% O&D rate. If that means reducing/cutting flights there, I don't think that the new AA will be hesitant about it.

Of course..... for the next three years or so all is supposed to remain basically the same per AA. But after that?

IrishAyes · Wed Oct 08, 2014 8:32 pm

Quoting B757capt (Reply 2):
Ted Reed is an idiot. These are seasonal adjustments that occur all of the time.

Just silly.

If this massive pull-down of fiction happens as so many say, i will eat crow. Until then Ted Reed is an idiot.

Agreed, Agreed, Agreed, over and over and over again.

I wonder who lacks more credibility: Ted Reed or Hunter Keay. Both present some of the most asinine ideas in the media on a regular basis.

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 3):

It's a poor article, not actually citing any CLT destinations to get whacked other than GIG & GRU, already announced. What's the point - a PR placement just to soften up the CLT crowd for the blows to come?

Seriously.

Now, to an extent, we Anetters all knew that CLT's current level of network coverage is unsustainable as part of the New America. Under pmUS, CLT was the most logical Latin American gateway of all pmUS hubs, and my guess is that the summer seasonal routes to BCN, MAN, BRU and LIS were created PRIOR to AA and US receiving the green light to merge. In all fairness, those might have been wise investments to make in case the merger did not pass.

enilria · Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:05 pm

Quoting B757capt (Reply 2):

I think the article is not a piece of "news". It is essentially a summation of events allowing commentary on strategic implications. Reed lives in CLT, so I'm sure he's not trying to create a negative for his hometown.

I think he's correct that the direction points toward CLT not being much of an international hub going forward, but he left out the biggest reason. CLT is now the worst hub in the USA for % of local traffic. It's like 20% or so. That makes international very hard to make work. AA's other intl hubs are massively higher by that measure.

Quoting USAirALB (Reply 8):

This article doesn't say anything...

GRU and GIG are both long gone, and BCN/LIS/BRU/MAN will be cut and aren't in the schedules for next summer.

AFAIK, nothing else will be cut for 2015. I've even heard that DUB may go year-round once new equipment arrive, and that MAN may make a reappearance in 2016.

For the same reasons I stated above I think CLT will be eventually right sized to bring local traffic more in line with hub size, although the creeping closure of WN's "hub" in ATL has taken a lot of the urgency to do that away. I think if another carrier attempted to hub ATL it would put more pressure on CLT's situation. Regardless, we are only talking about CLT maybe losing 20% of its capacity. CLT as a domestic hub is in no danger.

B757capt · Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:08 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):

Deep breath not needed. Hopefully the community will agree that Ted Reed's articles are stupid.

slcdeltarumd11 · Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:11 pm

CLT will certainly remain a hub. Its location is fantastic ie AAs ATL for domestic connections. Great geographical location for north-south traffic and from Florida to pretty much everywhere. For Europe the CLT location is really not ideal compared to both PHL and JFK. Only makes sense to expect significant Europe reductions in CLT. Its a merger i think they will right size CLT but its totally safe as a hub they need a southeast hub and the MIA location is horrific.

ORDTLV2414 · Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:39 pm

Quoting SLCSFOPDX (Reply 7):
I think CLT within 3-5 years will no longer be an AA hub. Maybe a focus city but not a true hub. Charlotte has a great economy so I am sure at least one or two airlines will come in and make CLT a focus city. Perhaps F9 (if they're still around by then).

I think CLT will be a hub. MIA-Latin America market is so large, that it is often taken up by O&D passengers, now AA can save the seats on its MIA flights to Latin America and Carreibian for O&D and route northeastern and midwestern passengers via CLT. For Europe I agree with you, I think AA will focus its European routes out of JFK,PHL and ORD for the time being.

AMALH747430 · Wed Oct 08, 2014 9:58 pm

After the dust settles AA is going to have 3 large east coast hubs plus two large focus cities at DCA and JFK/LGA. I don't see AA abandoing CLT or PHL but clearly some network rationalization will have to occur. MIA is unique in its role and I don't see much changing there. Right now US routes lot of trffic from the west coast and the middle of the country en route to the east coast and Europe through CLT. After the merger some of this traffic will be more efficiency handled through DFW and to a lesser extent ORD. However, CLT is a great low cost hub to get traffic up and down the east coast, the southeastern USA and to major OneWorld European hubs from the southeast. It won't be dehubbed but it will be repurposed.

Eirules · Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:41 pm

While DUB may survive I don't see AA flying to DUB from ORD, JFK, PHL and CLT like they did this Summer. For me JFK will go with competition from 3 other airlines on the NYC route

compensateme · Wed Oct 08, 2014 10:47 pm

Most of AA's costs at CLT & MIA are fixed so CPE isn't as much as a factor as many will believe; the numbers will fluctuate based upon passenger volumes flowed through each facility.

Quoting B757capt (Reply 2):
If this massive pull-down of fiction happens as so many say, i will eat crow. Until then Ted Reed is an idiot.

The article didn't predict that, but you'd be naive if you didn't believe a "right sizing" of CLT is coming. The process will be gradual and CLT will remain an essential piece of the AA network but a fair amount of capacity flowing via CLT will be reallocated elsewhere in the AA network.

DeltaXNA · Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:18 pm

Quoting SLCSFOPDX (Reply 7):
I think CLT within 3-5 years will no longer be an AA hub. Maybe a focus city but not a true hub. Charlotte has a great economy so I am sure at least one or two airlines will come in and make CLT a focus city.

Charlotte is staying as a hub. It fills a hole in AA's network. MIA is too far south for connections in the southeast, DFW is too far west, PHL is too far north, and DCA is limited. CLT will remain important to the new AA. Don't look for a trim on the CLT domestic routes, look for growth. As for international routes, it will keep the major business markets. Plus, why would AA want to give up the monopoly they'll have in CLT?

jayunited · Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:19 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 3):
What's the point - a PR placement just to soften up the CLT crowd for the blows to come?

Although the article is his opinion and he has restated the obvious service to Brazil will end and many of those less than daily routes that were added probably will not be next summer. I think you may be right and this journalist maybe trying to prepare US passengers for what he believes may be in store for summer 2015.

Opinion on this thread is split as to whether his opinion is correct or wrong only time will tell what the newly merged AA will do. In my opinion I believe for travel across the Atlantic all flights to LHR are save. However and again this is just my opinion I think JFK, PHL, MIA, and DFW are all safe from any future cuts which leaves ORD and CLT with question marks as to which flights seasonal or year around will be back next summer.

HPRamper · Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:34 pm

I see we're back on the tired "will AA dehub CLT" tack.

And I really thought we'd grown up and moved past the subject.

AABB777 · Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:38 pm

FYI: US made the CLT European route expansion announcement on October 21, 2013. CLT to BCN, LIS, MAN started 22MAY14, and BRU started 5JUN14.

CLT will remain a crucial part of the AA domestic network, but, as we are beginning to see, the hub will not be an international connecting point.

AeroWesty · Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:14 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 31):
I see we're back on the tired "will AA dehub CLT" tack.

Don't worry, next week it'll be PHX's turn.

nomorerjs · Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:26 am

CLT is not going anywhere as a domestic hub. There will be some international flights, but JFK, MIA, and PHL will be the focus (much more O&D and better locations).

SJOtoLIR · Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:35 am

Quoting cessna2 (Thread starter):
Will be interesting to see what is left for summer 2015.

Based on this assertion, the Central American routes operated by US Airways nowadays are in danger: CLT-SJO and CLT-BZE.

Regards.

brilondon · Thu Oct 09, 2014 12:44 am

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 31):

I see we're back on the tired "will AA dehub CLT" tack.

And I really thought we'd grown up and moved past the subject.

We have, it is you who mentioned it.

I always thought that CLT would be scrapped as a hub for AA internationally.

Indy · Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:05 am

Quoting cessna2 (Thread starter):
Charlotte has more connectivity, but it has a much smaller (origin and destination) market," Mann said. The only downside, he said, is that MIA's cost per emplaned passenger, which the airlines pay, is far higher. At Charlotte, the cost in 2012 was 97 cents, while Miami's cost was $19.72, according to Fitch.

CLT's cost are significantly lower. Is this just an alignment of assets or a clear shift in power?

While the cost per passenger enplaned may be significantly lower, it could all come down to the fact that there is no money in feed. With fuel prices being as high as they are, it may be worth paying the additional cost per enplaned passenger to reduce the number of double handled passengers. This wasn't nearly as important when fuel was cheap.

Thenoflyzone · Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:35 am

Quoting DeltaXNA (Reply 29):
Charlotte is staying as a hub. It fills a hole in AA's network. MIA is too far south for connections in the southeast, DFW is too far west, PHL is too far north, and DCA is limited. CLT will remain important to the new AA.

While i agree with the fact that CLT will probably remain a domestic hub, at least in the short term, I disagree with your overall assessment. The hole CLT fills as a domestic hub is a very small one. Nothing PHL, ORD, DFW and DCA couldn't handle on their own. Any west to southeast flow is well covered by DFW. Northwest to southeast can work through ORD as well. The rest can be covered by PHL and DCA. It's not as big a deal as you say it is. If there is one hub at risk of disappearing in the east, it's CLT !

As I said, i think CLT will stick around for the short term, but 4-5 years into the merger, I expect CLT to get de-hubbed, just like CLE got officially de-hubbed earlier this year.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2014-10-08 19:03:53]

OA412 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:58 am

Quoting brilondon (Reply 36):
I always thought that CLT would be scrapped as a hub for AA internationally.

I agree. I think we'll see the major cities stay (LHR, FRA, CDG), and possibly MAD as well given Oneworld, but I don't see much, if any, of the flying to secondary markets sticking around. Before the merge, US had PHL and CLT at its disposal for European flying, and that's it. AA brings JFK, MIA, ORD, and DFW, all of which are larger markets to Europe than CLT.

OzarkD9S · Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:03 am

CLT will support what it can support. Mucho domestic feed to those Int'l markets that "make sense" via CLT. Nothing more, nothing less. And in int's own right, the only domestic S.E. hub alternative to ATL. Take CLT out of the geographic paradigm of the new AA and AA is left with just PHL and DCA in the east, not a good structure.

Thenoflyzone · Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:08 am

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 40):
Take CLT out of the geographic paradigm of the new AA and AA is left with just PHL and DCA in the east, not a good structure.

Where did JFK and MIA go? As I said a few posts above, if there is one hub at risk of disappearing in the east, it's CLT.

DTWLAX · Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:40 am

Quoting Burchfiel (Reply 12):
Dallas is around 900 miles from CLT and Miami is about 670 miles. Furthermore, if you're traveling from the Southeast US to the East Coast, you're heading in the wrong direction if you're flying to either airport.

Quoting DeltaXNA (Reply 29):
Charlotte is staying as a hub. It fills a hole in AA's network. MIA is too far south for connections in the southeast, DFW is too far west, PHL is too far north, and DCA is limited.

Both of you seem to suggest the same thing - CLT performs a role that neither PHL, DCA, MIA or DFW can do.
Can either one of you give an example of a route that is better going through CLT than through PHL, DCA, MIA or DFW?

AA333PHL · Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:49 am

In 3 years I'm projecting that the AA CLT hub will be at 475 daily flights.

DeltaXNA · Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 42):
Can either one of you give an example of a route that is better going through CLT than through PHL, DCA, MIA or DFW

PHL----it's great if you are going from the Northeast to the west or within the northeast. Also, great if you are going to Europe. But if you are going southeast, it is probably a good idea to go to CLT for more direct and easier routing and connection.

DCA---better than PHL, but limited do to the slots. Not as many connections as CLT.

DFW and MIA are out of the way if you are just staying in the eastern US.

[Edited 2014-10-08 19:55:46]

MarcoPoloWorld · Thu Oct 09, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting PEK777 (Reply 11):
Shut 'er down, boys!

Yap. No need to operate a hub in between JFK and MIA.

slcdeltarumd11 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:20 am

Lets all be realistic here the amount of seats CLT has to Europe this summer, is absolutely unsustainable. I don't think anyone questions that, its gonna be downsized now with AA in the picture.

Does CLT go from one of the largest hubs literally to de-hubbed, absolutely not! Its a massive hub. Its a total necessary domestic hub in a great location. Its honestly only as large as it was because its all US had, now AA has more options so it will be a better sized hub and fly the connections that are cheapest and most cost effective to route thru there. Its about making money MIA, PHL, JFK, LGA, ORD are all expensive airports CLT is necessary to make the most money and not fly passengers extra miles which cost the airlines $$$$$$$$

SLCSFOPDX · Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:25 am

Quoting MarcoPoloWorld (Reply 45):

Well AA will have PHL as a hub, so that will make two hubs with CLT, and also DCA is a focus city. So the east coast is pretty well covered by the new AA.

slcdeltarumd11 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 3:47 am

Quoting SLCSFOPDX (Reply 47):
Well AA will have PHL as a hub, so that will make two hubs with CLT, and also DCA is a focus city. So the east coast is pretty well covered by the new AA.

DCA is primarily for o&d. They cannot create a hub there its an o&d focus. The airport is very limited and is best served to make the most $$$$$$ by flying non-stops to the most places.

Have you seen the size of CLT? Its a massive hub there is nowhere to move all that volume to, nor should they. They dont need this international flying we can all agree on that, but the hub is a total necessity and a major asset in an area where AA was super weak. US helped to fill a huge gap in the AA connection map.

CV880 · Thu Oct 09, 2014 4:20 am

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 41):

Where did JFK and MIA go? As I said a few posts above, if there is one hub at risk of disappearing in the east, it's CLT.

Not going to happen as JFK/MIA can't serve what's in between very effectively, nor can PHL & DCA. DCA is limited in what it can handle and PHL/JFK/ORD are cluster....s when the weather gets bad (which seems to happen often). If DFW can handle point to points to all of the South, including intra region connex, You may be right, but that's not going to happen either.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net