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airportugal310
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:15 am

Quoting Rhody (Reply 48):

In that case then it sounds like they just get to keep the reserve fuel from the last test flight the plane took. Less effort than defueling
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lightsaber
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Fri Oct 10, 2014 5:54 am

Boeing is known to throw in a full tank of gas to airlines that skip the customer flight testing and accept delivery based on observation of the Boeing flight testing of the new airframe. But from what I've heard, this is done at the contract negotiation stage. e.g., airline gives up being a QR on carpet quality and Boeing compensates with a tank of fuel.

So yes, Boeing offers free gas. If you save them *more* money by cutting the required flight testing...
But I've *never* heard of a widebody having the center tank filled by Boeing. Wing tanks? Yes. But the customer pays for the center tank to be fueled even if flight tests are 'opted out.'

From an relative that used to sell Boeings... (Mostly widebodies FWIW prior to retirement.)

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 4):

*Offer does not apply to the KC-767 tankers.

  

Quoting SYDSpotter (Reply 5):
This is probably standard business practice, when I go to pick up my new car it is fuelled up (although I can't remember if it was filled to the brim or just enough to make it to the nearest petrol station

I've had both. I've driven off cars with a full tank and one car where a mechanic had to put *one* gallon in the tank so that I could make it to a gas station. You get what you pay for...

Quoting mmo (Reply 9):
There is no such thing as a free lunch!!!!!

Agreed.

Quoting Luftfahrer (Reply 18):
They may actually have to dump fuel on the delivery flight.  

   AS might...

Quoting Rhody (Reply 48):
Tour guide said Boeing throws in ~1/3 tank of fuel for each delivered plane. Topping off was on the airline's dime.

That is probably the minimum to avoid liability. So it is part of the sales price...

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 47):
Doubtful. That can easily be checked during a taxi test or a flight test...

Teams that regularly defuel airplanes do so quickly. I've seen a 747 'sucked dry' in the same time it took to fill it in the first place (due to a discovered non-conformance that required a de-fueled plane to fix).

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 39):
Another perspective, the buyer can ask for what ever they want when negotiating purchase price. I am not sure how much it is to fill a 77W to the top, but I somehow think it is not all that much to do that in the grand scheme of things, afterall a 77W is 200million. They can do it for goodwill, or a way to get a better offer from the client.

That seals it... In the end, the airline can demand anything they want for the purchase. If it tips the scales to make a sale... why not. Its sort of like how car dealers would throw in 'variable whipers and the light package' to seal a deal. It didn't cost them much (if anything) and it moved product.

The end answer is this is chump change to be added as a 'thank you' during negotiation of held off if the customer 'raped' Boeing.  

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SEPilot
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:06 am

Has anyone considered that perhaps Boeing wants to fill the tanks to the brim at least once to make sure there is no leak? This would not be done at any time during the manufacturing process, AFAIK.
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Max Q
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:27 am

Quoting goboeing (Reply 19):
Just goes right over their heads if it allows them to start an argument, doesn't it!

You hit the nail on the head there !
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Chaostheory
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:36 am

I was a cruise relief pilot for a 77W delivery flight last year.

We had to order (and pay) for an additional 25 000 USG of fuel for delivery.
 
yeelep
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Fri Oct 10, 2014 3:52 pm

AS took delivery of a 737 yesterday, 8,000 lbs of fuel onboard on arrival in SEA.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:55 pm

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 52):

Has anyone considered that perhaps Boeing wants to fill the tanks to the brim at least once to make sure there is no leak? This would not be done at any time during the manufacturing process, AFAIK.

Leak testing is done with pressurized air. Leak testing is not done with actual fuel.
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Rara
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Fri Oct 10, 2014 9:29 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 53):
You hit the nail on the head there !

How about answering these questions, if you don't mind.

Quoting Vanguard737 (Reply 45):
How exactly is he missing the point?
Quoting Unflug (Reply 29):
What's your point then, if I may ask?
Quoting mmo (Reply 21):
Then perhaps you could enlighten all of us then!!!!
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7BOEING7
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Sat Oct 11, 2014 12:59 am

Quoting ChicagoFlyer (Reply 44):
On a 737, the customer confidence is obviously high, and I have been part of transactions where 737 was delivered with sufficient fuel for the flyaway flight (not full tanks), paid for Boeing, in return for customer waiving the flight test.

     

A large percentage of 737's are delivered without the customer flight as opposed to 767, 747, 777 and 787 where you hardly ever see Boeing pilots "buying for the customer" i.e. B-2C -- probably less than 1 a year on average. Southwest, Copa, Fly Dubai, Continental (pre merger) to name a few 737 customers.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 46):
Perhaps the tanks are filled to capacity to do a final check of the tanks, fuel measuring and related system.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 46):
Doubtful. That can easily be checked during a taxi test or a flight test...
Quoting SEPilot (Reply 52):
Has anyone considered that perhaps Boeing wants to fill the tanks to the brim at least once to make sure there is no leak? This would not be done at any time during the manufacturing process, AFAIK.

All done in the fuel pits prior to the B-1.
 
traindoc
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:01 am

For what it's worth. Just did a tour of the Boeing Everett factory this week. As we were driving to the plant from the Future of Flight Museum, we stopped to watch the delivery fight takeoff of a new AA 777-300. Our tour guide said that Boeing provides 1/3 of a full load for delivery flights.

Traindoc
 
flyorski
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Sun Oct 12, 2014 3:31 am

Quoting yeelep (Reply 55):
AS took delivery of a 737 yesterday, 8,000 lbs of fuel onboard on arrival in SEA.

That is not very heavy, pretty normal inbounds unless you mean 8,000 each wing.
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777Jet
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Mon Oct 13, 2014 2:42 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 1):
Don't know if it's true, but there is no such thing as a free lunch. If Boeing is fueling the aircraft for "free," then the cost of that fuel will be somehow recouped in the price of the aircraft. Just because it's not listed as a line item doesn't mean that the customer isn't ultimately paying for it.

Agreed!

Whilst it could be seen as a marketing tool, I doubt anybody would let that influence their decision on the purchase of something worth tens or hundreds of millions of dollars. I doubt even the most stingy airlines would even consider it...

Quoting SEPilot (Reply 3):
I am sure that there are many airlines that buy Boeing for the free tank of fuel. After all, $50,000 or so makes a tremendous difference on a $100,000,000 purchase.

Ain't that the truth  
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migair54
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Mon Oct 13, 2014 1:52 pm

It's not possible. How many planes Boeing deliver a month??

In 2013 Boeing delivered:

-B737......440 units
-B767.....21 units
-B747.....24 units
-B777.....98 units
-B787....65 units

Now multiply that for the capacity and for the price per tonne and you'll see how millions of $ we are talking about.

For one B77W is: 47,890 U.S. gal (181,280 L)x (maybe around 6 usd per gallon)= 287.340Usd in fuel only 1 B77W. If you keep addingbwe go to many millions .
 
bond007
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Mon Oct 13, 2014 5:39 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 62):
If you keep addingbwe go to many millions .

15 Million cars sold in 2013 in the USA ...average cost to fill tank $66 = 1 Billion Dollars!

Ok...so only half the dealers fill the tank ...


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32andBelow
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Mon Oct 13, 2014 6:13 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 62):
(maybe around 6 usd per gallon)

This price is way off. US JET-A at wholesale prices are closer to the 3.XX range than 6.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:38 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 62):
It's not possible. How many planes Boeing deliver a month??

In 2013 Boeing delivered:

-B737......440 units
-B767.....21 units
-B747.....24 units
-B777.....98 units
-B787....65 units

Now multiply that for the capacity and for the price per tonne and you'll see how millions of $ we are talking about.

For one B77W is: 47,890 U.S. gal (181,280 L)x (maybe around 6 usd per gallon)= 287.340Usd in fuel only 1 B77W. If you keep addingbwe go to many millions .

But if you compare the total fuel cost to the total value of all of the planes boeing delivered then it is really nothing again 
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N1120A
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RE: Free Tank Of Gas With Every Boeing.

Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:12 am

Quoting SAAFNAV (Reply 37):
Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 4):
*Offer does not apply to the KC-767 tankers.

With all the hair splitting, this comment was seriously overlooked....

This is, indeed, hilarious.
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