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mariner
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:09 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 49):
Yes, if you are a healthcare professional who has just finished taking care of someone who DIED from Ebola and the first thing you go and do is get on an airplane then you show very bad judgement, regardless of what the CDC said.
Quoting AR385 (Reply 50):
But now she can say "But I called them and they said yes."

That seems fair to me, she raised it with her superiors.

It is the "epic proportions" hyperbole that I find a worry. It reminds me of the over-the-top reactions to the original AIDS crisis.

The Frontier pax at CLE this morning seem to have taken it in their stride:

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...ong_lines_at_frontier_but_bus.html

"Long lines at Frontier but business as usual at Cleveland Hopkins Airport"

mariner

[Edited 2014-10-15 17:10:35]
 
AR385
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:15 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 51):
It reminds me of the over-the-top reactions to the original AIDS crisis.

I think that the more adequate analogy would be to what happened with the Spanish flu.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:20 am

Definite mixed economic message.
AMR: stock is up
Southwest, stock is neutral
Jetblue, stock is neutral
UA: stock down
DL: Stock Down
NK: Stock is down
RJET: Stock is down

But the whole market is down...

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 10):
I absolutely blame the nurse. She knew she had a fever *before* she flew. She also knew she'd been treating an Ebola victim. As far as I'm concerned that's wanton endangerment. Unacceptable from anyone, be especially a healthcare professional.

"Frieden said Vinson had been monitoring herself for symptoms of Ebola and failed to report that her temperature had risen to 99.5 degrees before she departed for Dallas."

She should have done more. This has major potential impacts.

My coworkers are really scared. I ask them why they didn't sign up for the *free* flu vaccine at work 2 weeks ago. The flu will kill *far* more Americans in the next 12 months than Ebola. But that doesn't matter. Ebola scares them, they've survived the flu...

But the stock market pretty much ignored the news.

Quoting wnbob (Reply 22):
If we know this decease so well, the African doctors (who deal with this everyday) and the Texas nurse should not had been infected.

I admit that scares me. But they are also working in exhausting conditions were mistakes are made.

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 28):

Meh, still safer than driving.

True. But ti will do more harm to air travel than anything else if any of those passengers did contact Ebola.

Quoting mariner (Reply 48):
Vinson told CBS Dallas Fort Worth that she was feeling ill before boarding her flight. She had a low grade fever, but she said that officials told her it was okay to get on the plane. Vinson told CBS that she called the CDC several times with concerns.

CNN confirmed that she called the CDC before her flight."

What?!?

There is at least a triple failure going on there...

Ligthsaber
 
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mariner
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:20 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 52):
I think that the more adequate analogy would be to what happened with the Spanish flu.


For you, perhaps, but not for me. I lost many of friends to AIDS, the people with whom I had expected to grow old, but no one caught it from simple contact and the way some of the airlines behaved was disgraceful.

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index...rontier_airlines_passengers_n.html

"Frontier Airlines: Passengers not being asked to wear masks on board"

mariner

[Edited 2014-10-15 17:22:36]
 
lewis
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:22 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 51):
t is the "epic proportions" hyperbole that I find a worry.

You worry over the use of a word? I worry more over the stupidity of those who are in place to protect the population in this country from the spreading of the disease. But I still stand by the word I used, her negligence/stupidity and that of the CDC were indeed epic. That is the same CDC who you mention gave her the OK, that today came out to announce that "she shouldn't have traveled". The word "epic" doesn't even begin to describe it....
 
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mariner
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:24 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 55):
You worry over the use of a word?

I always worry about the user of words and the panic they can spread - see "masks" in post above, a rumor spread entirely by social media, with zero basis in fact.

mariner
 
lewis
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:26 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 56):

I do not think that calling her negligence of "epic" proportions or the stupidity shared by her and the CDC as "epic" causes any panic. It just highlights how incredibly stupid both parties' actions were.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:29 am

Wow...

Ebola has already killed over 200 health care professionals:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/dandiamo...rses-and-other-healthcare-workers/


Or per that link: 230 of the 400 health care providers who contracted Ebola have died.

As noted:
“What are the chances America’s first Ebola patient ended up at the *only* hospital that would make mistakes?” health care economist and writer Austin Frakt ruefully asked on Twitter “Point is, errors are everywhere.”


Lightsaber

PS:

Late edit: There seems to be a 'money flight' to security:
http://www.bloomberg.com/markets/stocks/futures/

[Edited 2014-10-15 17:30:42]
 
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mariner
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:33 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 57):
I do not think that calling her negligence of "epic" proportions or the stupidity shared by her and the CDC as "epic" causes any panic. It just highlights how incredibly stupid both parties' actions were.

Yet you didn't include the CDC in your original comment, your scorn - and your suggested punishment - was solely for her.

Words can inflame and I think this situation needs to have the heat taken out of it, but - each to their own, always.

mariner
 
AR385
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:48 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 54):
For you, perhaps, but not for me. I lost many of friends to AIDS, the people with whom I had expected to grow old, but no one caught it from simple contact and the way some of the airlines behaved was disgraceful.

I am very sorry for that. I was too young for it to affect me as it did you, but I also lost two uncles and one cousin.

At this point, people who thought, and you can you tube videos from authorities from August, speaking about how Ebola was "only dangerous" because the countries, namely, Liberia, Sierra Leone and Guinea, where there was an outbreak, had "defficient health systems, were very poor, few resources, etc." Other stereotypes about education level and culture of the population were mentioned that I won´t repeat here.

Well, now, you have three nurses in what would be First World countries getting infected when treating individuals with the disease. Two in the US and one in Spain. One country where the CDC, no less, is located.

I don´t want to know what could happen if the disease gets to countries well, not as poor as the African ones, but not as developed as the US or Spain. That´s why my comparison with the Spanish flu.

And back then air transport was non existent, at least not as it is today.
 
maxamuus
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:49 am

I think at the very worst the CDC is flat out lying about how difficult it is to contract Ebola, and at the very least they aren't telling the whole truth.

Honestly if this is the fashion that the first case was handled we are SCREWED. It has been a complete disaster from start to where we are now.

Did this isolation unit have a ceiling fan and a screen door? What were all these breaches of protical? Honestly in the USA with some of the best medicine in the world how does the patient die, and 2 nurses contract it, and the CDC is scratching their head "Well that didn't go well" with absolutely no clue what went wrong or are lying to cover up the truth.

If this is the way it is handled, i am willing to bet we have a full blown pandemic on our hands, and by this time next year somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of the worlds population is wiped out.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:57 am

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 61):

I think at the very worst the CDC is flat out lying about how difficult it is to contract Ebola, and at the very least they aren't telling the whole truth.

Honestly if this is the fashion that the first case was handled we are SCREWED. It has been a complete disaster from start to where we are now.

Did this isolation unit have a ceiling fan and a screen door? What were all these breaches of protical? Honestly in the USA with some of the best medicine in the world how does the patient die, and 2 nurses contract it, and the CDC is scratching their head "Well that didn't go well" with absolutely no clue what went wrong or are lying to cover up the truth.

If this is the way it is handled, i am willing to bet we have a full blown pandemic on our hands, and by this time next year somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of the worlds population is wiped out.

I don't think the method of transmission is airborne. Feel free to look at all of the reporting, the WHO reports, the UN reports etc for details on that.

What is inexcusable is that as well as we handled flying patients back from Liberia and treated at Emory in Atlanta, a hospital totally botched a walk-in patient in Dallas. He told them he was from Liberia, that should have been enough along with the symptoms to isolate him, call CDC and if needed, transfer him to a proper facility with proper training.

What's happened since is again sloppy follow through by CDC. They have the expertise and equipment, just jump all over it and do what you've trained to do. Unfortunately, the Dallas hospital didn't handle things properly.

Now we have to deploy more resources to monitor more people and isolate if needed. If this HAD been something like the Spanish Flu of 1918, we would've been screwed. As it is, there will be a lot of fear, most of it needless and a whole lot of bureaucratic b.s. to avoid blame.

F9, if it hasn't done so yet, should say they sanitized the **** out of the plane in question and confirmed with the CDC that everything was cool before using it again, just to cover the health (remote) possibilities and the P.R.
 
maxamuus
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:10 am

I dont believe its airborne in the true sense, but multiple Dr's have said that it is in saliva so when a patient coughs or sneezes the virus is contained in that. Which (at worse could be in your face, mouth, eyes) or at least land on tray tables arm rests etc. You come behind them, touch it, rub your eye, bam you have Ebola.

The part about F9 saying the plane had been "cleaned" made me laugh out loud. Yeah we clean our planes everyday. We all know what a airline considers a "cleaning" and it is NOTHING close to decontaminating a aircraft.

They take the trash out of the seat backs, hand vac the pretzel crumbs, fold the seat belts. Clean.
 
CO953
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:18 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 46):
I suppose they should start nominating robots for the the position.

Well, the idea is that some people are not happy with the active focus on political advocacy being shown by the Surgeon General nominee, which is why he's being blocked. Politics seems to infest so much these days, that it would be nice to see a nominee whose primary mission is the medical field, instead of forming an anti-gun advocacy group. I'm not taking sides - I'm explaining the reason why we don't have a Surgeon General. The opponents have said they don't like the demonstrated political activism of the nominee. The president refuses to back down on his politically active, under-40 nominee who, agewise, doesn't have the experience nor gravitas of a C. Everett Koop. So betwixt the two opposing forces, we have no Surgeon General. Anyway, we DO have an acting Surgeon General, who is doing the job, and so if folks think that the Surgeon General should have more input/control, there is someone occupying the office who can coordinate with the CDC. My personal opinion is that the CDC should lead, in theory, but the current guy Friedan has glaringly failed, and so all bets are off, and effective, active leadership is required from higher up the executive chain.

The bigger question I have is: What are the FAA standards to declare an aircraft Ebola-free?
 
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mariner
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:22 am

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 63):
The part about F9 saying the plane had been "cleaned" made me laugh out loud. Yeah we clean our planes everyday. We all know what a airline considers a "cleaning" and it is NOTHING close to decontaminating a aircraft.

Really, this is reminding me more and more of the initial reactions to the AIDS crisis, but I suppose it depends on your definition of "decontamination":

http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/in...frontier_airlines_aircraft_at.html

"Squyres said that the Centers for Disease Control assured the airline that its decontamination efforts were above and beyond what was necessary to contain the risk of spreading the infectious disease, and that there was no reason to keep the aircraft out of service."

mariner
 
CO953
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:35 am

Quoting LoneStarMike (Reply 45):
I know a person being monitored is supposed to report to the hospital if the have certain symptoms (watery stool, vomiting, etc.) and a temperature greater than 101.5 degrees according to this:

Thanks for the link, LoneStarMike. So it looks like no one at the CDC had the common sense to think that maybe a nurse who just treated an Ebola victim, who had a fever at 99.5F and about to board a commercial airliner with other passengers, might end up with a fever higher than 101.5F in a few hours. With inside-the-box thinking like this from the CDC, we are doomed. Bureaucracy can kill, and this is a good example of it. Had someone gotten Ms. Vinson in hand the second she reported the 99.5F fever, she might have had an extra head-start on life, and a planeload of Frontier flyers may not have been potentially exposed, as she herself obviously either didn't have enough going on upstairs to make the connect herself, or purposely boarded the plane knowing she very possibly was developing Ebola.

This is all becoming very, very ugly. We are one step behind at every turn. Incompetent leadership from the top. It's almost like getting behind the aircraft in an upset situation and staying there, in a health context. This kind of uncreative thinking by those in charge is how airplanes crash.
 
ozark1
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:36 am

Quoting hardalphaTi22 (Reply 1):
The audacity to hop on a plane two days after your Ebola patient died is stunning (and an indication that the situation is out of control).

Well apparently it has just come out that she contacted the CDC prior to her trip to ensure that it was ok for her to take the trip to CLE and they said that it was. That is what is being reported now.
 
United1
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:48 am

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 67):
Quoting hardalphaTi22 (Reply 1):
The audacity to hop on a plane two days after your Ebola patient died is stunning (and an indication that the situation is out of control).

Well apparently it has just come out that she contacted the CDC prior to her trip to ensure that it was ok for her to take the trip to CLE and they said that it was. That is what is being reported now.

Per CNN the CDC didn't tell her one way or the other...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/15/health...bola-outbreak/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

Corrected as I read the article slightly wrong...

[Edited 2014-10-15 19:00:31]
 
hardalphaTi22
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:41 am

I agree with everyone else that the CDC is lying and downplaying the risks to avoid panic while they wait to see the exposure rate.

For the average person, I would recommend the following:

a) No mass transit travel unless absolutely necessary for the next 3 weeks while we see how the epidemic plays out.

b) Stock up on Food, Water, Fuel, Medicine, Batteries and Cash ($1k-$5k) to sustain yourself for 90-180 days in your neighborhood.

c) Be prepared to keep your family quarantined with (b) for as long as necessary if the situation continues to decompress.

At any moment, the Feds could impose travel restrictions at any level pending the outbreak rate and profile.

We saw what happened after 9/11. The current downplaying could quickly reverse to a massive over-reaction that we saw with the TSA, Homeland Security, etc**.

** The above assumes that we have a rational government after reality sets in. I personally have my doubts that the current executive leadership would do the right thing in the case of a national crisis, in which case all bets are off. In this case, the USA is what we refer to in autopilot control theory as "open loop".
 
antskip
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:10 am

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 67):
Well apparently it has just come out that she contacted the CDC prior to her trip to ensure that it was ok for her to take the trip to CLE and they said that it was. That is what is being reported now.

ABC now reports that Vinson had been classified as of "uncertain risk", as although being in constant contact with an ebola patient at the most infectious stage of the disease (the last stages), she had worn the proper protective equipment. She first flew last Wednesday, the day Duncan died. Three days later a fellow nurse (Pham) was diagnosed with ebola. On Monday, Vinson rang CDC to report a raised temperature of 99.5. The guidlines for people of "uncertain risk" gave a temperature threshold of 100.4, and so she was cleared to fly. http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ebo...-checked-cdc-flight-source-n226961

[Edited 2014-10-15 21:11:05]
 
F9Fan
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:24 am

The following was obtained by the Denver press. It is a memo from F9 CEO David Siegel. It explains what happened with the aircraft, and what they are doing about it. I find it quite interesting and telling they are not saying anything about the DFW-CLE flight.

Quote:
Dear Team,

We know today has been challenging for Frontier Airlines team members so we felt it important to provide you with an update of the facts and our proactive response to the developments throughout the day.

We take today’s events seriously as your safety and that of our customers is always at the forefront of everything we do.

Since we were notified by the CDC, we’ve proactively placed six crew members (two pilots; four flight attendants) on paid leave for 21 days out of an abundance of caution as the safety and security of our employees is our number one priority. This was over and above CDC guidance that stated that our flight crews were safe to fly.

We have also been working in close cooperation with our unions and appreciate their support on this issue.

Frontier Airlines Chronology – Ebola virus

Oct. 10
• Passenger first travels on Frontier Airlines flight 1142 Dallas/Fort Worth to Cleveland
• Aircraft terminates its operation for the evening and is sanitized in accordance with Frontier’s standard operating procedures (consistent with CDC guidelines). Aircraft remains in service.

Oct. 13
• Passenger returns to Dallas/Fort Worth on Frontier Airlines flight 1143 Cleveland to Dallas/Fort Worth (departs 6:16 p.m. EDT, arrives 8:16 p.m. CDT)
• Aircraft terminates its operation for the evening and is sanitized in accordance with Frontier’s standard operating procedures (consistent with CDC guidelines). Aircraft remains in service.

Oct. 14
• The aircraft is routed as follows:
2042 DFW-CLE (departs 7:50 a.m. CDT, arrives 11:27 a.m. EDT)
1104 CLE-FLL (departs 12:13 p.m. EDT, arrives 3:01 p.m. EDT)
1105 FLL-CLE (departs 3:43 p.m. EDT, arrives 6:25 p.m. EDT)
1101 CLE-ATL (departs 7:14 p.m. EDT, arrives 9:07 p.m. EDT)
1100 ATL-CLE (departs 9:57 p.m. EDT, arrives 11:00 p.m. EDT)
• Aircraft terminates its operation for the evening and is sanitized in accordance with Frontier’s standard operating procedures (consistent with CDC guidelines). Aircraft remains in service.

Oct. 15
• At approximately 1:00 a.m. MDT, Frontier is notified by the CDC that a passenger traveling on Frontier flight 1143 Cleveland to Dallas/Fort Worth on October 13 tested positive for the Ebola virus.
• Immediately upon notification from the CDC, Frontier removes the aircraft from service.
• At the request of the CDC, Frontier supplies customer contact information. CDC instructs Frontier that they would contact our customers.
• Separately Frontier reaches out to impacted customers with CDC contact information.
• The aircraft does not perform any scheduled flying and remains out of service in Cleveland until later in the day when it was operated with crew only as a ferry flight to Denver.

NEW INFORMATION:
• At 1:55 p.m. MDT Frontier was notified by the CDC that the passenger may have been symptomatic earlier than initially suspected; including the possibility of possessing symptoms while onboard the flight.

SUBSEQUENT ACTIONS:
• In light of the new information, Frontier determines that the aircraft will remain out of service and ferries it back to Denver from Cleveland without customers. The flight departs at 6:20 p.m. EDT and arrives in Denver at 7:20 p.m. MDT. In an abundance of caution, it is determined that the aircraft will receive a fourth cleaning since the infected customer was onboard. Though not required, this cleaning will consist of the removal of seat covers and carpets in the immediate vicinity of the passenger seat. The airline will also change the environmental filters onboard.
• NOTE: These extraordinary actions went beyond CDC recommendations. These steps were taken out of concern for the safety of our customers and employees. Steps such as removing the aircraft from service, removing aircraft seat covers and carpet and replacing environmental filters as well as placing the crew on paid leave were not requested nor mandated by the CDC. Frontier expects that the aircraft will return to service in a few days.

Thank you for continuing to represent Frontier proudly on the front lines. Please reach out to your departmental leadership should you have any additional concerns or questions. I’m proud to stand with Team Frontier and appreciate all you do for our customers each and every day.

We will provide additional updates if developments warrant.

David Siegel
CEO Frontier Airlines
 
GentFromAlaska
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:58 am

Quoting antskip (Reply 70):
On Monday, Vinson rang CDC to report a raised temperature of 99.5. The guidlines for people of "uncertain risk" gave a temperature threshold of 100.4, and so she was cleared to fly

A first concern would be how much time elapsed between her 99.5 and Mrs Vinson last call to the CDC before she boarded her flight. An uptick of one one degree can happen within an hour.

The 100.4 criteria CDC established has me thinking some medical types may be educated beyond their intelligence.

My personal hunch is the hospital failed to establish a Safety Officer on the ground who would have overall authority to make decisions at the deck-plate. It sounds to me like improper decontamination procedures existed which would require a chlorine bleach shower with the suit still on the person and the Kevlar suit immediately incinerated (not stockpiled) mirroring the way international trash is burned within an hour or two after it arrives in the U.S. aboard aircraft.

The federal government uses the Incident Command System ICS as "unified language" ICS is used to fight wildfires to oil spills to hazardous material CERCLA Superfund cleanups. CDC should be on-board. States usually know it but small to medium municipalities oftentimes refuse to use it in favor of their own language. As the federal standard it must be used when the feds respond or municipalities risk loosing future federal funding.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:54 am

The Dallas County Commissioners Court is planning to call a special meeting for Thursday to discuss whether to request that Gov. Rick Perry declare a local emergency because of the Ebola crisis.

According to state law, a declaration of emergency, says "the county judge or mayor of a municipality may control ingress to and egress from a disaster area under the jurisdiction and authority of the county judge or mayor and control the movement of persons and the occupancy of premises in that area.”

The declarations last up to seven days, and can be renewed by the Commissioners Court for longer than that.

-----------------------------------------------------

So, that would give the local authorities the power to restrict air travel for anyone on a watch list, regardless of whether or not they have a temperature.



Also, there will be Congressional Hearing Thursday the 16th in front of the House Energy and Commerce Committee’s Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations.

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2014/1...-at-hearing-on-u-s-ebola-response/

Officials scheduled to testify at the hearing include CDC Director Thomas Frieden and Dr. Anthony Fauci, the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases at the National Institutes of Health. Dr. Daniel Varga, the chief clinical officer at parent company of the Texas hospital that treated the Liberian man who died of Ebola, will attend via video-link so that he can remain in Dallas to take care of his responsibilities there.
 
ocracoke
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:15 am

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 62):
I don't think the method of transmission is airborne. Feel free to look at all of the reporting, the WHO reports, the UN reports etc for details on that.
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 21):
Viruses transmit between human beings in certain ways. They don't magically mutate from fluid based contact to airborne contact.
Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 21):
If you feel that Ebola is airborne, stay at home, lock the doors and sit in front of the door with daddy's shot gun propped across your lap and wait for the little green men to come get ya.

As the US Army found out in 1989, Ebola can mutate and be transmitted via an airborne method.

The Reston Ebola virus (the only one of the various Ebolas strands that is not fatal to humans...yet..) was responsible for the deaths of a number of monkeys at a research lab in Reston, VA back in 1989/1990. These monkeys were being quarantined, and had no physical contact with each other, and still managed to catch Reston Ebola from each other. Several animal handlers were also infected with this strain of the disease, but nothing ever happened to them.

The monkeys were euthanized. The building the lab was in was decontaminated with formaldehyde for three days. And after investigating the outbreak, the US Army and CDC came to the conclusion that since the monkeys had no physical contact with each other, the only way the Reston Ebola strain was spread was through the building's HVAC system. Reston Ebola can indeed be spread through the air.

It is just a matter of time before the 5 strains that are deadly to humans mutate and spread via air as well.
 
AR385
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:22 am

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 74):
It is just a matter of time before the 5 strains that are deadly to humans mutate and spread via air as well.

As it´s been explained here, and in other threads, on CNN, the BBC, etc. it will not mutate. And it will not become airborne. It cannot mutate, in its form of transmission.
 
ocracoke
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RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:53 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 75):
As it´s been explained here, and in other threads, on CNN, the BBC, etc. it will not mutate. And it will not become airborne. It cannot mutate, in its form of transmission.

Understood. I should have known that posters on a.net are world class medical experts, and it's best if I listen to them. Those from CNN and BBC as well....

First off, any virus can and will mutate.

Secondly, there are plenty of places to read about Ebola-Reston. For example, directly from the CDC website

"During the outbreaks in U.S. monkey quarantine facilities in 1989 and 1990, there was transmission to animals in separate rooms that may have been due to small-particle aerosols...."

There was never 100% proof, and the research is still ongoing (some scientist say it is impossible for Ebola to spread in a non-physical way, others say that at the very least, the non-leathal to humans Ebola-Reston can), but both the CDC and the US Army suggest that Reston Ebola is indeed spreadable via airborne particles. {cdc.gov}

Or here is another quick synopsis:

"In the end, researchers concluded that the new species of Ebola was highly contagious in monkeys but not in humans. They also learned that the disease was not only found in Africa, since the monkeys had come from the Philippines. The investigators determined aerosol transmission was particularly quick in a lab setting, because the virus appeared to pass between rooms to infect susceptible monkeys." {http://www.restonnow.com/2014/07/31/restons-link-to-ebola-nearly-25-years-later/}

You can bury your head in the sand and pretend it wont happen, but it already has.

[Edited 2014-10-15 22:54:07]
 
AR385
Posts: 6937
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:58 am

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 76):
Understood. I should have known that posters on a.net are world class medical experts

I would really appreciate if you can the snarkiness. Otherwise no logical discussion can follow.

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 76):
First off, any virus can and will mutate.

Not in its form of transmission. I do not know if it can mutate in other ways. But no virus ever, since viruses have been discovered and observed, has changed the way they are transmitted. Feel free to find the sources to back that up. In this very site, experts have commented on that.

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 76):
"In the end, researchers concluded that the new species of Ebola was highly contagious in monkeys but not in humans. They also learned that the disease was not only found in Africa, since the monkeys had come from the Philippines. The investigators determined aerosol transmission was particularly quick in a lab setting, because the virus appeared to pass between rooms to infect susceptible monkeys." {http://www.restonnow.com/2014/07/31/restons-link-to-ebola-nearly-25-years-later/}

Please notice it mentions "NEW" species, as in previously undiscovered. Not a mutation. The current Ebola, will not change its mode of transmission. Are there other strains lurking in the depth of Africa that are airborne? Maybe. Not this one though.

[Edited 2014-10-15 23:05:22]
 
tom11
Posts: 148
Joined: Thu Oct 02, 2014 4:02 am

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:59 am

Quoting wnbob (Reply 22):
I don't know about you but I won't be flying Frontier any time soon. For P.R. sake they should have at least grounded that plane longer, 1 grounded plane is not going to kill them.

That's a dumb reason not to fly F9. They decontaminated the plane. The virus can only live a certain amount of time away from the body anyway, so, given a few days the virus would not be alive anyway. They are fine.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:58 am

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 61):
If this is the way it is handled, i am willing to bet we have a full blown pandemic on our hands, and by this time next year somewhere in the neighborhood of 50% of the worlds population is wiped out.

I'm not happy with how things have progressed, but I personally see zero evidence that it could get even remotely that bad.

Quoting hardalphaTi22 (Reply 69):
b) Stock up on Food, Water, Fuel, Medicine, Batteries and Cash ($1k-$5k) to sustain yourself for 90-180 days in your neighborhood.

Good luck with that. Most people are hard pressed to get ahead in life. Building their own emergency shelter at home is probably not going to happen. Hopefully it won't matter though.

-Dave
 
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zkojq
Posts: 4796
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 12:42 am

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:24 am

Quoting CO953 (Reply 36):
So, folks, is it time to publish a list of known "Ebola aircraft?" Serious question. Duncan's planes + Vinson's planes. How about keeping an updated list. Just for the heck of it. I am supposed to fly AA through Dallas next week and I personally would like to know if I am boarding an Ebola plane.

From twitter. Seems the aircraft is N220FR. Presumably it has now been drowned in disinfectant.

http://twitter.com/Dougherty7NEWS/status/522574846694539266
 
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DIRECTFLT
Posts: 2742
Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:00 am

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:05 pm

Quoting tom11 (Reply 77):
They decontaminated the plane. The virus can only live a certain amount of time away from the body anyway, so, given a few days the virus would not be alive anyway. They are fine.

Yet, and in spite of those facts.....A Chain reaction: Concern about Ebola nurse’s flight prompts various school closings in two states

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/m...light-schools-close-in-two-cities/

Foe example: In Solon, Ohio, 20 miles southeast of Cleveland, two schools will shut down Thursday so health officials can disinfect the buildings. The school district stated in an e-mail that it made the call after learning a local middle-school staff member may have been on the same plane — but not the same flight — as Vinson.
 
HPRamper
Posts: 5239
Joined: Sat May 14, 2005 4:22 am

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:51 pm

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 75):
Secondly, there are plenty of places to read about Ebola-Reston. For example, directly from the CDC website

"During the outbreaks in U.S. monkey quarantine facilities in 1989 and 1990, there was transmission to animals in separate rooms that may have been due to small-particle aerosols...."

There is a good book about it, "The Hot Zone." Pretty decent read.
 
yv773p
Posts: 125
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 4:00 pm

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:04 pm

Quoting ocracoke (Reply 75):
First off, any virus can and will mutate

Okay what makes you think that this Ebola virus which has been with us for less than year can mutate and become airborne but HIV that has been around since the late 60's has not?

Quoting hardalphaTi22 (Reply 68):
a) No mass transit travel unless absolutely necessary for the next 3 weeks while we see how the epidemic plays out.

b) Stock up on Food, Water, Fuel, Medicine, Batteries and Cash ($1k-$5k) to sustain yourself for 90-180 days in your neighborhood.

c) Be prepared to keep your family quarantined with (b) for as long as necessary if the situation continues to decompress.

We are approaching flu season which on a good year kills 500 US Citizens and on a bad one 50,000; I recommend everyone get a flu shoot before they stock up on cash, water.
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:15 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 79):
From twitter. Seems the aircraft is N220FR. Presumably it has now been drowned in disinfectant.

Yep N220FR which is Finn the Tiger shark on 10/13 CLE-DFW and N213FR Montana the Elk on 10/10 DFW-CLE both A320'

NBC is reporting today (Thursday) the aircraft(s) have been decontaminated four times and the flight crews given 21 days off.
 
WNbob
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:36 pm

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:17 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 48):
I really thought people were over-reacting in the US with Ebola, after all, the medical personnel and facilities are light years ahead of Africa, right? Well it seems a lot of people employed in healthcare AND the CDC are not the sharpest knives in your drawer...

Exactly.

If you forgive me, I am not gonna yell doom, but certainly me citizen is going to take extra precaution BEYOND what the bureaucracy prescribe to us, some extra margins of safety if you don't mind.
 
PanAm1971
Posts: 446
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:28 am

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:33 pm

This is not a thoroughly understood disease. Nurse Pham was in full gear... and still became infected. Until the cause is fully understood... I think it is prudent to use extra caution before allowing anyone who has been exposed to sit in a closed tube for several hours with a hundred or so unexposed people. Just my opinion.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:33 pm

After the flight from CLE-DFW, the plane was supposed to return to CLE that monday night. But it didn't. Anyone know why the return flight was cancelled? Was she sick on the plane? Or was it just cancelled for MX or low passenger loads?
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:31 pm

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 86):
After the flight from CLE-DFW, the plane was supposed to return to CLE that monday night. But it didn't.

ON 10/13 N220FR flew CLE-IAD-CLE-ORD-CLE-DFW As stated the flight back to CLE was canceled.

It departed CLE three hours late, which means it landed in DFW late. It may have been the domino affect from earlier in the day from. I'm told Bill Franke keeps his airplanes busy for 18 hours a day. Additionally there was some vicious thunderstorms mid continent. I saw them over MCI steering a course for the heartland.
 
ckfred
Posts: 5203
Joined: Wed Apr 25, 2001 12:50 pm

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:47 pm

Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 10):
"Frieden said Vinson had been monitoring herself for symptoms of Ebola and failed to report that her temperature had risen to 99.5 degrees before she departed for Dallas."

A specific temperature is not a good indicator of whether a person should stay off an airplane, stay home, or go to the hospital. If a person is normally 98.6, then 99.5 indicates an illness that isn't serious.

But, cooler-than-normal body temperatures run in my family. Many of my relatives are s around 97.6 degrees for normal. I have trouble getting a thermometer past 97.0, when I'm healthy. So, if my temperature is 99.5, I'm pretty sick.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:54 pm

^also, who knows the real temperature. It may have read 100.1 and she wanted to fly back home and get treated there. She's demonstrated enough irresponsibility in flying to CLE in the first place, that this would not be inconceivable.

GentfromAlaska--^^--okay. WX may have been an issue, but it only arrived at 8pm---so pax were already waiting and 8pm is not that late, plus they likely planned for that plane to be in CLE by early the next morning for new operations, so it still seems unusual.
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:56 pm

Quoting wnbob (Reply 84):
Exactly.

If you forgive me, I am not gonna yell doom, but certainly me citizen is going to take extra precaution BEYOND what the bureaucracy prescribe to us, some extra margins of safety if you don't mind.

I would think in a situation like this that CAUTION is appropriate. I see it this way:

GREEN = Arrogance
YELLOW = Caution
RED = Unrestrained Fear

The GREEN folks seem to look at the YELLOW folks like they are the RED folks. The RED folks seem to look at the YELLOW folks like they're the GREEN folks. it makes being YELLOW - cautious - somewhat challenging, as you are getting mocked from both sides.

I would assume that in the face of this Ebola outbreak that being CAUTIOUS is appropriate, but good luck defining what that looks like.

-Dave
 
maxamuus
Posts: 256
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:49 pm

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:02 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 78):
I'm not happy with how things have progressed, but I personally see zero evidence that it could get even remotely that bad.

One only need to open a history book and read about pandemics to see how bad it can get. We all have a false sense of security with our modern medicine, but the truth is we have absolutely nothing we can do to stop Ebola at the moment.

Sadly, our only saving grace is that it kills its hosts 70%-90% of the time and fairly quickly, so the virus limits its own transmission by the high mortality rate.

I am not one to buy into conspiracy theories, but i dont think the CDC is being completely honest. I dont think its airborne but i likewise don't think its as hard to contract as the CDC or the WHO would have you believe or all these doctors and nurses wouldn't be contracting the disease.

The number of Ebola patients is doubling every 3 weeks (Per WHO) and will reach 1.2 million cases by Jan. 2015 (per WHO)

Sorry folks but this is NO WHERE like HIV/AIDs or SARS. This is the worst case scenario and its only getting worse.
 
kingcavalier
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:02 am

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 91):
Sorry folks but this is NO WHERE like HIV/AIDs or SARS. This is the worst case scenario and its only getting worse.

It is like HIV in the fact that Ebola can be transmitted by bodily fluids/blood but you can't contract HIV from kissing. Although with HIV, it's mainly about blood. It does seem like it's easier to get Ebola but you must still come into contact with body fluids. Like HIV, it cannot be transmitted via airborne, though. With all due respect, this is the worst case scenario? I would think worst case scenario would be that Ebola can be transmitted via the air and it was a world-wide epidemic. The numbers for other diseases (flu) are much worse and in the case of the flu, much easier to get.

[Edited 2014-10-16 09:14:00]
 
maxamuus
Posts: 256
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:49 pm

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:18 pm

Quoting kingcavalier (Reply 92):
you can't contract HIV from kissing. It does seem like it's easier to get Ebola but you must still come into contact with body fluids

There lies the issue. Yes you can make out with someone with HIV and not contract the virus. However i think the jury is still out if Ebola is contained in Saliva, certainly it is contained in saliva once patients start bleeding from their orifices. So once blood is in your mouth and you are coughing and sneezing the virus is contained then. It doesnt even have to be a massive amount of blood.

[Edited 2014-10-16 09:20:02]
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9524
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:19 pm

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 91):
but the truth is we have absolutely nothing we can do to stop Ebola at the moment.

We've done almost nothing to stop it yet we only have a relative handful of cases outside of Africa. Imagine if we were to actually DO something.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 91):
Sadly, our only saving grace is that it kills its hosts 70%-90% of the time and fairly quickly, so the virus limits its own transmission by the high mortality rate.

So then how to we get to a 50% worldwide mortality rate in one year? My understanding is that one of the reasons that it has been an issue in Africa is that people are handling the bodies poorly due to certain belief systems as well as a lack of resources. In the US (for example) you will likely not see people dragging their family member's body out to the street and leaving it there very often. Of course, we'll have our own stupid ideas, but that's a whole 'nother story.

-Dave
 
maxamuus
Posts: 256
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2011 3:49 pm

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:26 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 94):
We've done almost nothing to stop it yet we only have a relative handful of cases outside of Africa. Imagine if we were to actually DO something.

We have no medication that at the moment can stop/cure Ebola. Strides are being made, but in the context of medicine that usually takes years.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 94):
So then how to we get to a 50% worldwide mortality rate in one year? My understanding is that one of the reasons that it has been an issue in Africa is that people are handling the bodies poorly due to certain belief systems as well as a lack of resources. In the US (for example) you will likely not see people dragging their family member's body out to the street and leaving it there very often. Of course, we'll have our own stupid ideas, but that's a whole 'nother story.

Obviously i dont know the exact mortality rate, but its not going to be pretty. (Imagine what Ebola would do in a nation like China) If this gets bad the US might be worse off, as we want to embalm and bury our dead and that is the WORST thing you can do. Ebola can live in the body for a few weeks. If it gets bad, open pit burning of bodies is the best way to go. No one will like that, but it is the safest way to dispose of victims.

[Edited 2014-10-16 09:32:19]
 
kingcavalier
Posts: 412
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:02 am

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:29 pm

I would think the Black Death plague that wiped out 200 million in the 14th century would be as bad as it can get. My personal feelings about Ebola is it's the newest designer virus and it's got the media's attention. Fear makes for great news. But we Americans have short attention spans.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5825
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:29 pm

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 95):
Obviously i dont know the exact mortality rate, but its not going to be pretty. If this gets bad the US might be worse off, as we want to embalm and bury our dead and that is the WORST thing you can do. Ebola can live in the body for a few weeks. If it gets bad, open pit burning of bodies is the best way to go. No one will like that, but it is the safest way to dispose of victims.

Are you serious? America will not have the issues they have had in Africa. The families won't have a choice in how it is disposed of.
 
GentFromAlaska
Posts: 2666
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:39 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 90):


Dave, You are close, the feds refer to it as a GAR (Green-Amber-Red) score and it is used in the metrics arena from budgets to risk assessment.

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 95):
We have no medication that at the moment can stop/cure Ebola. Strides are being made,

Antibodies from others blood who have been treated for Ebola seems to be part of the answer. Should we assume the Ebola virus is a medical stress test for Obamacare.
 
FreequentFlier
Posts: 1111
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:30 am

RE: 2nd Dallas Ebola Patient Flew F9 Day Prior

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:09 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 90):
I would think in a situation like this that CAUTION is appropriate. I see it this way:

GREEN = Arrogance
YELLOW = Caution
RED = Unrestrained Fear

The GREEN folks seem to look at the YELLOW folks like they are the RED folks. The RED folks seem to look at the YELLOW folks like they're the GREEN folks. it makes being YELLOW - cautious - somewhat challenging, as you are getting mocked from both sides.

I would assume that in the face of this Ebola outbreak that being CAUTIOUS is appropriate, but good luck defining what that looks like.

         This is brilliantly said and I can't agree enough. The problem is that you have two extremes that have turned this into a political football and just talk past each other, and anyone in the middle just gets lumped in with "the other" for both of the two extremes.

Case in point: you've got the "guns and ammo crowd" on one side claiming the government is involved in a conspiracy, or worse, purposefully inflicting this on the population because....well who knows really? Just because I guess. Obama just wants to intentionally destroy the country or something apparently. Maybe put them in concentration camps so he can remain President for life perhaps?

And then on the other side, you've got the so called "smart set", including comedians like Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert mocking anyone showing even a reasonable level of concern. It should be pointed out that this "smart set" has been wrong about literally everything so far regarding the ebola virus. Wrong about the degree to which it spread throughout Africa. Wrong about it ever reaching just outside Africa, like in Europe. Wrong about it ever reaching the US specifically. Wrong about it being spread within the US beyond the patient zero. Wrong about it being spread amongst multiple parties within the US. And then wrong about the ease in which it could be spread to areas outside of Dallas - see the CDC's brilliant decision to allow the 3rd ebola case onto a Frontier flight to Cleveland. There should be a social penalty to being wrong EVERY SINGLE TIME, and it starts with shutting the **** up about everyone else being "rubes" for showing any concern about the potential spread of the virus.

I keep seeing comments akin to "You have a greater chance of being struck by lightning than you do in contracting ebola!" And of course that is true, except being struck by lightning isn't contagious, and doesn't put the surrounding population at greater risk of being struck by lightning too. So the analogy is completely stupid and not particularly clever.

Anyways, the point is that it would be great if the "guns and ammo crowd" and the "smart set" crowd could shut up for a minute and stop arguing amongst themselves so that the "Yellow Alert" crowd that you so aptly called it could maybe chime in here too every now and then. We don't think you need to don a hazmat suit on your commute to work and don't think Obama is out to purposefully kill your family. We also don't think it's unreasonable to expect the CDC to closely monitor the staff at the Dallas hospital and not have them flying all about the country.

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