Bongodog1964
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:10 am

[quote=1400mph,reply=35]We all want to see a successful AF but if they are run into the ground due to various follies then KL won't have a choice. God only knows what the intricacies of it all would be though.
[/quote

KL has no choice ? correct KL has no choice in the matter, its part of an amalgamated group AF/KL with AF being the larger part
The only scenarios that see KL separating from AF are either AF running out of cash and conducting a fire sale of KL to balance the books, investors convincing the board that the two airlines are worth more apart than combined and insisting on a demerger, or a competitor airline making an offer for KL that is so lucrative the board feel they have no choice but to recommend that the shareholders vote to sell KL off.
 
tff
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:19 am



Quoting kl911 (Reply 48):
fa4af,

Thank you for that great post! Respect.

+1

[Edited 2014-10-16 04:21:36]
Remove before flight
 
747ata32
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:47 am

No chance what so ever of KLM going solo again. AF and KL are already highly integrated and several departments (like revenue management) are transferred to Paris.
To make all integrations undone would require enormous amounts of money and effort. No one is going to support that.
Flown: 733, 734, 73G, 738, 739, 742, 743, 744, M11, 752, 763, F100, F70, SF340, A319, A320, A321, A332, 772, 77W, D10, D
 
A388
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:48 am

Quoting kl838 (Reply 46):
As you and I know AF and Emirates are pretty much equal if we compare the latest products in Y.

Hmmm I still don't agree but let's agree to disagree and focus on the subject of the thread. Will KL be able to leave the AF group or not. If so, which alliance fits them best?

A388
 
factsonly
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:35 pm

Quoting BSRadar (Reply 49):

IAG comprising Iberia / KLM / BA would offer a mouth-watering world-wide route network, and stiffen up the Intra-European networks vis-à-vis the Star Alliance competition.
Quoting SQ773 (Reply 39):
KL should have joined BA...
Quoting eastern023 (Reply 30):

KLM to OneWorld!!!. Would that be cool!!!
Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 29):
Bugger, if only KLM would have gone with BA!!


Interesting to note how many people desire a BA-KL link up, when there are very good reasons why it will never happen.

In both previous attempts to bring BA and KLM together, it turned out that the airlines are too much alike:

1. The networks largely overlap, the airlines are very close competitors and as a result 1+1 was not 2, and certainly not the desired 3. From a strategic point of view, airline cooperation will only be successful if the two networks are complementary to each other. The one network needs to fill the holes in the other network to create new traffic flows and put more bums on seats. This is not the case with BA and KLM, where networks largely overlap. This would not bring additional passenger flows over each network, it would lead to route cancellations and consolidation as the airlines traditionally fight for the same passenger. (The AF - KL networks were much more complementary to each other, as AF served Francophone destinations and KL more Anglophone destinations).

2. As the larger carrier, BA made it quite clear in the ownership discussion that KLM would have nearer 20% in the new holding (shares, votes, management seats, etc.), whereas KL management felt 40% was the minimum acceptable.

The Dutch left the negotiations with a strong feeling BA Mgt. was keener in taking a strong UK competitor out of the market, rather than to jointly create a new powerhouse. (Interestingly AF turned out to be more sensitive here.)

Ultimately, when BA created the IAG group, they took onboard a number of the lessons learned in the BA-KL negotiations.

The departure of KLM CEO Camiel Eurlings is not a surprise for those familiar with French and Dutch cultures.

Mr. Eurlings was appointed in Air France tradition. A senior Dutch Christian Democrat politician and ex. Minister of Transport of the Netherlands, he was a political appointment much the way senior leaders are appointed in France. He had no (aviation) business experience what so ever. He stood above all staff, finding it difficult to connect with the working KLM man. He fit the French management tradition perfectly.

KLM has traditionally been run by aviation experts, businessmen, career KLM people, home grown in the company. People who understood air transport, had a strong KLM affiliation and strong internal network, who understood the company and the business and were highly competitive. KL managers have grown up through the ranks and had full employee support.

The new KLM CEO appointed yesterday is of this latter type, home grown and he knows the company. This should help him take the company further.
 
vv701
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 12:54 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 23):
What is the mechanism for this?

Any change will need to be agreed not by AF or KL but by a majority of AF/KL shareholders. And I can see no way that the separation of KL from AF would be to the advantage of those shareholders. Inevitably there have been cost savings by the formation of AF/KL and these would be lost if separtation occurred. Here it is worth noting that if some shareholders perceived a financial advantage in holding just KL shares they would still have to carry their perceived disadvantage of owning AF shares while still carrying the overall costs of separation itself and the higher operational costs of being separated.

So its not going to happen unless . . .

The only circumstances under which separation could occur is if AF/KL was forced into bankruptcy administration. Then the administrator could sell on any profitable and, indeed, unprofitable AF/KL operations. This could be through a direct sale or transfer much as happened with both Swissair and Sabena. Alternatively profitable businesses could be subject of a public offer for sale on a selected stock market. However this seems a most unlikely outcome particularly at a time when consolidation and not divestment is the name of the European airline game.

Will AF/KL enter administration? A highly unlikely event, and almost certainly not if AF can successfully negotiate the next 12 months by putting the pilots strike behind it.
 
PanAm1971
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:12 pm

KLM is actually a really good airline. You get what you pay for... and more. I like connecting in AMS. I like how easy it is to get into the city from the airport. I very much like the awesome route network (including through DL). It just feels like KLM is stuck on the deck of a sinking ship. There must be a way to save KLM. It would be a real tragedy to see her go down.
 
icarus75
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:15 pm

Quoting fa4af (Reply 45):
Let us not forget that if AF alone were to report its taxes in the Netherlands, it would save 750 million Euros a year

Thank you very much for your post!

I am Platinum with FB (93 flights in 2013, long haul and european flights - Up today, 68 flights for 2014).
I travel a lot for the work, only in Premium Economy for European travels and I really love AF! I have sometimes to take connecting flights in AMS and I do not like it a lot. Not because KLM is a bad airline, but because the product is not the same : no Eco Premium on KLM.

I know, some of the readers will say that for short flights, Economy is enough. Not for me, a very frequent traveller.

That being said, I love the AF/KLM "brand" because it gives a lot of opportunities for connections within Skyteam and I hope these two airlines will never split!
Flying is amazing!
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:16 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 5):
That is a surprising move as he was only in office since mid-2013. I wonder what consequences this move might have.

Some info can be found in the article below:

http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/5597/Economie...over-niet-verlengen-contract.dhtml

Best to use Google Translate for those who can't read Dutch.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
kl838
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:17 pm

Quoting 747ata32 (Reply 52):
No chance what so ever of KLM going solo again. AF and KL are already highly integrated and several departments (like revenue management) are transferred to Paris.
To make all integrations undone would require enormous amounts of money and effort. No one is going to support that.

This is very true and is the main reason why both companies wouldn't split. The amount of collaboration is too extensive for that to happen.

Quoting A388 (Reply 53):
Hmmm I still don't agree but let's agree to disagree and focus on the subject of the thread. Will KL be able to leave the AF group or not. If so, which alliance fits them best?

A388

I agree, however I don't think KL would leave, remember KL was losing money and I think the access to AF's network and the synergies such as combining many departments is a key reason why KLM is earning higher profits.
 
A388
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:26 pm

Quoting factsonly (Reply 54):
The networks largely overlap

Now that you say this I remember the time when KL was in talks with BA about a merger, I still lived in the Netherlands that time. I was thinking exactly the same thing. The networks of BA and KL largely overlap making synergies less attractive. Another thing is that the BA hub and KL hub are too close to each other (LHR vs. AMS). Looking at this and looking at the other alliance airlines in Europe, KL unfortunately has limited options, if not none to chose from. IB is now with BA and LH has its own airlines and the FRA hub is also pretty close to AMS. I think the BA/IB tie up geographically is the best combo in Europe. Those two networks really compliment each other very well (IB covers Latin America like no other European carrier does and BA covers the rest of the world well too). So who knows from an alliance point of view KL is better off staying in the AF/KL Group.

Interesting times ahead though...

A388
 
TYCOON
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:43 pm

This whole thread is ludicrous and based on a very weak and unfounded assumption at the outset. AFKL are not going to de-merge period and they both benefit from each other.
If you knew anything about tax structuring and spent any time looking through the AFKL's books as I have, a lot of the Groupe's losses are purposely transferred into the AF entity as it is a higher tax regime than in the Netherlands. Keep your profits at KL (even if generated at AF level) because you pay less taxes on them, and put your losses in France. It is really that simple!!
AF is not disappearing anytime soon... To even suggest it is as absurd as saying Lufthansa or Singapore Airlines will disappear tomorrow.
I suggest the moderators lock this thread as the basis for starting this "rumor" are completely without substance.
 
blueflyer
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting kl911 (Thread starter):
The story in the financial world is this : Since the 'merger' in 2004 KLM was responsible for 2,98 Billion euro in profit, where as AF was responsible for a loss of 791 million Euro.

Barring any leak, the "financial world" has access to financial accounting, not managerial accounting. Given that financial accounting drives tax reporting, one of its purposes is to allocate profits and losses in the most advantageous way possible for the group. And since corporate taxes are generally lower in The Netherlands, profits will be assigned to KLM and losses to Air France. For example, whenever the AirFrance-KLM holding makes a profit on fuel hedges, they show up on KLM's books. Losses are assigned to Air France. Air France also provides a number of internal services to KLM, such as revenue management, since not having the expense of doing it in-house drives up KLM's profit.

In other words, these figures above are not reliable. I don't know what the real numbers are, but I do know it would require a team of forensic accountants with access to managerial accounting data to find out.

Quoting 1400mph (Reply 34):
Bemuses me when people say 'not going to happen.' We all want to see a successful AF but if they are run into the ground due to various follies then KL won't have a choice. God only knows what the intricacies of it all would be though.

Bemuses me when people still talk of AF and KL as independent entities united by choice and free to leave at will. They may look separate and different as brands, but as far as corporate organizations go, Air France is KLM and KLM is Air France. There is no "if AF this then KL that" scenario. Full stop. The two airlines are organized as separate entities but they are both owned by the same holding company, and there is too much integration between the two as it is to think that KLM can be separated from Air France without significant cost.

The idea of KLM being able to decide on its own to split from Air France is almost as risible as BA Gatwick declaring independence from the mothership. Almost.

Quoting SQ773 (Reply 39):
OMG, if some AF head of department or marketing guy are reading this post, they might be freaking out. Let's say 95% of the people would vote for KLM leaving AF ?

95% of the people on A.net who don't realize it's not even an option? Yeah, a real cauchemar for Air France P/R...
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bmacleod
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:45 pm

Quoting 747ata32 (Reply 52):
No chance what so ever of KLM going solo again. AF and KL are already highly integrated and several departments (like revenue management) are transferred to Paris.
To make all integrations undone would require enormous amounts of money and effort. No one is going to support that.

Agreed. US airways will leave AA before AF and KL split up....

[Edited 2014-10-16 09:48:04]
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
Unflug
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:18 pm

Quoting fa4af (Reply 45):
Let them decide for the future of the airline, and let the pilots fly our planes. Sounds basic? Not in France, where everyone has an idea of how to better run the house, the company and the country. Pretty much like on a lot of forums on airliners.net...

Regarding the pilots unions I don't see much difference here in Germany, unfortunately   

But that's not the topic at hand.

Great post, merci beaucoup!
 
Pihero
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:35 pm

I started reading this thread and was fuming mad... until I came across some real quality posts :
Thank you, ThreeHillRaven, fa4af, Icarus75, kl838 and Tycoon for putting the record straight and getting away from the usual garbage / bashing one finds unfortunately in great quantities in this forum.

Respect indeed !
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kl838
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:34 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 65):

I started reading this thread and was fuming mad... until I came across some real quality posts :
Thank you, ThreeHillRaven, fa4af, Icarus75, kl838 and Tycoon for putting the record straight and getting away from the usual garbage / bashing one finds unfortunately in great quantities in this forum.

Respect indeed !

Thank you Pihero, I may not comment much on the a.net forums, however I do notice the trend of bashing AF on all aviation related websites not just a.net. I often believe AF is underestimated within the industry, and will continue to be underestimated when the new products are fleet wide. What this recent crisis within the group has taught management, is that both airlines need to continue to work closer and eliminate any sort of overlapping in departments when they could just be combined into one. The next few years are very crucial for establishing Transavia for the low cost market, and to continue to negotiate with the unions in order to get a proper support for the project. KLM on the other hand needs to continue to grow steadily, while fighting off easy jet at its AMS hub.

kl838
 
kl911
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:04 pm

Quoting kl838 (Reply 59):
I think the access to AF's network and the synergies such as combining many departments is a key reason why KLM is earning higher profits

KLM has many destinations not served by AF, so that access to network thing doesn't make sense. And ( after having lived 5 years in France) French people stay with AF anyway , also because their language skills are not good and for nationalistic reasons. Not to flame here, but France is very nationalistic, where as the Dutch are loving mixing/trying different cultures/languages.

For example, many Dutch have the saying, holiday starts when you close the door of your home behind you. The journey is already holiday. So many choose to fly the carrier of the country of destination for that reason. No harm in that.

But back to topic, AF needs KL's network ( and liberal open skies deals worldwide) more then KL needs AF's network. ( French speaking destinations )
 
A388
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:35 pm

Quoting kl838 (Reply 66):
KLM on the other hand needs to continue to grow steadily, while fighting off easy jet at its AMS hub.

Nice idea but haven't you read the history of mainline airlines who started low cost divisions to compete with true low cost airlines? One problem that mainline airlines have is that they are unionized. How can they overcome that? Another problem is the higher cost base of mainline airlines compared to low cost airlines. Transavia in this sense isn't a low cost airline, at least not the way that true low cost airlines are. I started a thread a while ago suggesting KL to go for the A320 so they can join maintenance of these aircraft with AF and that Transavia take over the entire KL 737 fleet so they can standardize on the 737. Seeing how the Transavia plan for 100 aircraft to compete with the likes of EasyJet and Ryanair is now shelved, I don't know how KL will be able to compete with these low cost airlines. Don't get me wrong, I would love for KL to continue the path they are going now as they seem to be doing well but how can they tackle those low cost airlines?


A388
 
LJ
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 67):

But back to topic, AF needs KL's network ( and liberal open skies deals worldwide) more then KL needs AF's network. ( French speaking destinations )

Can you give an example where AF "needs" KLs network? I think both need eachother as both schedules are planned together and each have a dedicated task within the AF/KL Group.

AF uses KLs network in Scandanavia, as the AF/KL polic is (at leasta s far as I know) that Scandinavia and the UK are KLs territory whereas AF covers southern Europe. Moreover, I recall that KL serves the lower yield destinations and those which can better be served from AMS whilst AF is going after the more premium pax.
 
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par13del
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Thu Oct 16, 2014 9:16 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 68):
One problem that mainline airlines have is that they are unionized. How can they overcome that?

One would have thought that with the mergers being accomplished by establishing a holding company that the business folks in charge would just set up a new company free from all the obligations of the other companies in the group.
Yes the capital expense would be higher - new a/c and employee's etc - but when you consider the upside of bring free to compete on a level playing field............
The parent company investors could (should) not care whether AF or KL or - insert new company name - carry the pax and compete with the LCC as long as the group continues to grow, cater to a wider range of pax and be profitable.
 
A388
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:50 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 70):
business folks in charge would just set up a new company free from all the obligations of the other companies in the group.

And do you think the unions will accept such a new company just like that? How will such a company get the pilots to fly when they are on strike because of the new company being set up to avoid all the union influences?These unions are quite powerful...

A388
 
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par13del
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:09 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 71):
And do you think the unions will accept such a new company just like that?

The parent company has two subsidiaries, AF and KLM, neither subsidiary unions have any say in the others operation.
AF has an issue because they are attempting to set up a low cost carrier, I'm saying that the holding company should create a third subsidiary from scratch.
In setting up such a company there can be no economy of scales since that would bring the other companies into the fold, so no AF/KLM staff, no AF/KLM a/c, no AF/KLM routes, set up a new company to compete with AF/KLM.
If the unions strike what would be their legal basis? Essentially the LCC that are giving AF competition have a cost structure that AF cannot match, so why try? The best option is to lower cost as best they can and compete on routes where their other strengths as a major hub carrier allows their other options to out-weigh the additional cost.
Is it possible, I do not know just throwing out options. If both AF / KLM are profitable the parent company would look to use profits to continue to expand the business, what if they purchase an LCC rather than set one up, or purchase a bus company or some other business in the transportation industry?
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:35 am

Quoting fa4af (Reply 45):
hello all

Well balanced post!
Great job!

Quoting Pihero (Reply 65):
was fuming mad

Aren't we exaggerating a little?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 65):
usual garbage / bashing one finds unfortunately in great quantities in this forum

Yes, or the usual same people that defend anything French no matter what.....

Quoting kl838 (Reply 66):
I do notice the trend of bashing AF on all aviation related websites not just a.net.

Why would that be though?
I am seriously wondering why.....

No Tax On Rotax
For anybody that happens to be wondering:"yes, owning your own aircraft is a 100% worth it!"
 
A388
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:40 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 72):
If the unions strike what would be their legal basis?

Do you know why the AF pilots went on strike? AF/KL wanted to expand HV by setting up new bases throughout Europe with local crew under new contracts just as you mention. Do you know why the strike happened? Because those unionized pilots feared there jobs would be at stake because AF would cut in their European network.

A388
 
1400mph
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:24 am

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 61):

You have no idea what may happen. To say you do just because you looked at some tax detail is what is ludicrous.

This merger is not like UA/CO or DL/NW. Holding companies are necessary because European nations don't want to cede the national identity of their major carriers. It's patriotism pure and simple. Nothing wrong with that.

That same patriotism though won't allow AF to drag down KL no matter what the intricacies. The two are based at two different major hubs in two different countries serving two different major metropolis. Not to mention KL staff who if the sh*t really did start to hit the fan wouldn't stand around with their thumbs up their butts as their livelihoods evaporated or conditions deteriorate in order to bolster AF at KL's expense.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 62):

The holding company can't do anything about the above.
 
Pihero
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:25 am

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 73):
I am seriously wondering why.....

...but not for very long, apparently.

Quoting notaxonrotax (Reply 73):
Yes, or the usual same people that defend anything French no matter what....

Keeps a certain measure of balance, doesn't it ?

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 76):
A pity that it is a relatively small minority.

My sentiment, too. Thanks for that post.
Contrail designer
 
1400mph
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:20 am

Quoting ozglobal (Reply 76):

From my stand point I'm arguing about how 'adhesive' the European mergers are. The fact that this particular thread is about AF and KL is of little consequence. I have no desire to see AF fail. If the discussion were focused on BA and IB and one of those two were having problems I'd argue the same.

I remember when BA hit a brick wall......the vultures on a.net circled for years blathering on about this that and the other and endless doom laden scenarios until the situation improved, the penny dropped and they saw the bigger picture.

These holding companies are a strange beast. People say 'national carriers' no longer exist but they do in many respects. I mean the names say it all...Air France, Royal Dutch Airlines, British Airways......they stir up all sorts of feelings. You say IAG to someone in the street and they'll say....who...what ?
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:54 am

Quoting AOMlover (Reply 81):
It is, because for connections CDG 2 E & F (the 2 terminals used by AF in CDG) are perfectly fine.

These never ending loooooong halls? Better not be a disabled person.
Getting to the RER from 2F with baggage is excruciating!

I rather CDG1 and Star Alliance any time maybe more "old fashioned" yet much easier, all in one place.

     
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
1400mph
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 8:55 am

Quoting AOMlover (Reply 81):

I don't notice any real difference in any major airport around the world and I've been to a few.

CDG, SIN, LHR, JFK....just airports. Still have to hang about and go through security at all of them ?
 
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par13del
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:27 am

Quoting A388 (Reply 74):
Do you know why the AF pilots went on strike? AF/KL wanted to expand HV by setting up new bases throughout Europe with local crew under new contracts just as you mention.

Well I guess I will have to go back and re-read the threads on the AF strike, I thought the Transavia option also included moving / offering AF pilots jobs at the new airline, the local Transavia had a restriction on the number of a/c so a new company was being established to work around that contract.
As I said, possible or not but in my line of thinking, once AF starts working on the new airline within an airline the problem starts.


Quoting A388 (Reply 74):
Because those unionized pilots feared there jobs would be at stake because AF would cut in their European network.

Preventing jobs losses at AF is a national issue, preventing LCC penetration into the market cannot be done solely by AF, government intervention is also required.
LCC's are expanding throughout the EU so unless more folks start flying, some airlines will be loosing market share and jobs.
 
jfk777
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:47 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 13):
If KLM leaves AF, would they also leave Skyteam and join another alliance??

Which alliance depends on who buys them. Lufthansa owns too many European airlines to buy them but IAG ( BA) would be interested. BA missed the boat the first time and had to settle for Iberia, they would certainly be the first to buy KLM.
 
icarus75
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:43 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 80):
These never ending loooooong halls? Better not be a disabled person.
Getting to the RER from 2F with baggage is excruciating!

Have you tried let's say ORD or FRA?
Flying is amazing!
 
ozglobal
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 2:20 pm

Quoting icarus75 (Reply 85):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 80):These never ending loooooong halls? Better not be a disabled person.
Getting to the RER from 2F with baggage is excruciating!
Have you tried let's say ORD or FRA?

...or JFK, or EWR or LHR or MAD or LAX or SFO or FUC or SEA or NRT or ...

Answer is probably 'yes', but don't let that get in the way of hating on France.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
A388
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RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:26 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 82):
Well I guess I will have to go back and re-read the threads on the AF strike, I thought the Transavia option also included moving / offering AF pilots jobs at the new airline, the local Transavia had a restriction on the number of a/c so a new company was being established to work around that contract.

The crew who would fly for HV would have less favorable terms I imagine as they are a LCC. You're not going to go for less favorable terms if you already have better terms.

Quoting par13del (Reply 82):
Preventing jobs losses at AF is a national issue, preventing LCC penetration into the market cannot be done solely by AF, government intervention is also required.
LCC's are expanding throughout the EU so unless more folks start flying, some airlines will be loosing market share and jobs.

Yes, I agree but in this case it was the AF/KL group who wanted to expand their HV division to better compete against EasyJet and Ryanair so it wasn't a totally different company outside of the AF/KL Group. I think that is the problem.

A388
 
Pihero
Posts: 4318
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:11 am

RE: Rumour : KLM Could Leave Air France

Fri Oct 17, 2014 6:20 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 87):
The crew who would fly for HV would have less favorable terms I imagine as they are a LCC.

The Transavia agreement :
- Crews will work according to the airline own operating regs : flight time / rest limitations, salary, seniority list...
The pay rates are of course lower than at AF, but people will be flying more ( basically from 45-50 hrs per month to 70 + at HV... and in effect, the salary could well be superior.
- AF-origin crews will keep their benefits : health care, pension scheme, AF seniority list... etc... which means that they will in fact have two contracts : one with AF which guarantees the above and one with HV.
- Promotion to captain will be a lot faster at HV, hence the pay difference between two pilots , one staying at AF and one flying HV, will be quickly become immense...
- There will be seniority inversions in the future, especially for long haul LHS positions, as there won't be any demotion between the two airlines ( once a captain, always a captain ). That also means that someone going HV will be as a matter of fact *bonded* there.

- On the other hand, the airline gets, at basically no cost, a 50 % improvement on aircrews' productivity.

A win-win situation.

What I have noticed is that a lot of people have a very strong opinion, generally based on nothing other than the net so called *popular wisdom*, to say the least.
Contrarily to that *knowledge*, Transavia has a lower unit cost base than EasyJet and Vueling, the main competitors for the group. See in particular page 43 :

For more Info, Perform 2020 presentation
Just click on the hyperlink.

As an aside, I should in fact be thanking all the bashers who helped the shares down. As they are now rapidly and nicely recovering, I made more than 15,000 € in just three days... and expecting more next week.   
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