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HUYfan
Topic Author
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BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:26 pm

Summer 2015 will see BA swap the 3 class 777 for a 4 class 747 on the Denver, Colorado route.

I would expect it to be the Mid-J version with fewer Club World seats.

Kind regards

HUYfan

[Edited 2014-10-16 06:36:27]
 
MonsieurX
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:55 pm

Will it be one of the 747s with new F, however, or will it be one with old F which is normally blocked off, and then sold under certain circumstances as J to frequent flyers? Very interesting news though, as I'm considering making a trip to Denver next year....

X
 
HNL
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting MonsieurX (Reply 1):
Will it be one of the 747s with new F, however, or will it be one with old F which is normally blocked off, and then sold under certain circumstances as J to frequent flyers? Very interesting news though, as I'm considering making a trip to Denver next year....

BA is selling First on this route.
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FriendlySkies
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 2:52 pm

If BA can fill a 747 on this route, seems like it might be time for UA to consider putting that 767 (or maybe a 787) back on...
 
29erUSA187
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:00 pm

Wow. 2 747's to Europe and a FI 757. Lots of TATL Capacity from DEN. I suppose they may be pulling the 777 to provide one for KUL next year.
 
panam330
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 4):
I suppose they may be pulling the 777 to provide one for KUL next year.

Or AUS. Evidently, DEN can support a little bit more than A.net gives it credit for. The route has been around a long time; it's nice to see it mature a little bit. It's been almost 15 years since it was a scheduled 744, IIRC - and that was back when the route was to LGW!


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Johnwaynebobbet
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:36 pm

It's a mid J aircraft.
 
by738
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:37 pm

BA Flyertalk is a great source of info ! with the insiders first with the news.
 
SLCSFOPDX
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 3:38 pm

So BA and LH will both have a 747 to DEN next summer, sweet! I hope Icelandair's flight is doing good there in DEN.
 
dfwjim1
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:12 pm

I can see LH using a 747 to DEN due to the Star Alliance hub with its many connections but is there that many people traveling to DEN
on BA to warrant a 747? The Denver Area business community is large but not huge so is there a lot of Europeans traveling to the
Rocky Mountain area on vacation?

BTW, not a knock on Denver as it is one of my favorite cities in the United States.
 
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SANFan
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:44 pm

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 4):
I suppose they may be pulling the 777 to provide one for KUL next year.

I'm wondering if this up-gauge in equipment at DEN next summer, like the up-gauge on the AUS route next winter, is more about right-sizing other routes and needing the a/c from these routes to accomplish that? Once all the changes are unveiled, we'll see how things settle out. I think next year will see the 789s joining the fleet so there's even more choices for BA.

Not only are new routes (to new cities) a major factor in scheduling but attempting to right-size the a/c on all of their existing routes is a prime part of the picture.

In any case, 2 74s to Europe next summer for Denver is pretty cool!

bb
 
vv701
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:09 pm

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 9):
is there that many people traveling to DEN on BA to warrant a 747?

Virtually impossible to answer. We cannot even know for certain whether the change from a 772 to a 744 is driven by the needs of the LHR/DEN route or the need for BA to free up a 772 to fly another route like LHR/AUS.

What we do know is that at the end of this month BA will have been operating LHR-DEN for twelve years. Further before that it operated LGW-DEN. So it has a wealth of data on passenger numbers, yields and freight volumes to use in its decision making process. So if the need is primarily to free up a 772 to operate on another route we can be pretty certain that BA's DEN flight is amongst the top few if not the prime candidate amongst BA's large number of 772 flights to be changed to a 744 operation.

This suggests that there well might be sufficient revenue from this route to justify a 744. And since the freight carrying capacity of the 772 is higher than that of a 744 it s likely that passenger numbers and / or yields is a major positive factor for this change. But . . .
 
N1120A
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:14 pm

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 9):
I can see LH using a 747 to DEN due to the Star Alliance hub with its many connections but is there that many people traveling to DEN
on BA to warrant a 747? The Denver Area business community is large but not huge so is there a lot of Europeans traveling to the
Rocky Mountain area on vacation?

1) London is always the largest O&D market to US big and medium sized cities.

2) High end ski vacationers are very common into DEN from Europe.

3) There are enough OW loyalists in DEN to drive a service.

4) The flight can be filled in the back by shifting lower yielding traffic, just like AA does with the RDU-LHR flight.
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Revelation
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
High end ski vacationers are very common into DEN from Europe.

What about high end pot smokers?  
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N1120A
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:20 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
What about high end pot smokers?

AMS is cheaper  
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HUYfan
Topic Author
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:30 pm

World Traveller and plus loads are often overbooked and so the extra WT/+ seats will sell. Club and First on the other hand, i'm not so sure, Club is rarely booked over 40 out of 48. First I imagine will fail to sell more than 6/8 on a regular basis. I would have thought a 3 class 747 mid-J with F as a CW overflow would have been more appropriate, but I haven't seen the numbers.

On several occasions when I have operated the 4 class 777 on the DEN route, people have asked on boarding why they were unable to book/upgrade to F.

Kind regards

HUYfan
 
LH417AF025
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:07 am

this could also have something to do with the fact that LH just removed F on the route, now making BA the only carrier with F non-stop to Europe from DEN.
 
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OA412
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:19 am

Wow, didn't see this coming. BA sent a 744 to DEN way back in '99 or so, but it's been a 772 ever since.

Quoting SLCSFOPDX (Reply 8):
I hope Icelandair's flight is doing good there in DEN.

By all accounts it has been. Public comments suggest it's doing well, and the flight went from 4 weekly summer frequencies when first introduced to daily (though still less than daily in winter).

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 9):
I can see LH using a 747 to DEN due to the Star Alliance hub with its many connections but is there that many people traveling to DEN
on BA to warrant a 747?

The stats are a little old, but according to the Brookings data, DEN-LHR is over 100,000 passengers per year. Factor in those connecting at LHR, and it shouldn't be too difficult for BA to fill a 744 in the summer months.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 12):
2) High end ski vacationers are very common into DEN from Europe.

Right, but this is a summer increase. We don't tend to get too many ski vacationers in the summer months. 
Quoting Johnwaynebobbet (Reply 6):
It's a mid J aircraft.

What does this mean?
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bristolflyer
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:51 am

Good to see BA's confidence in this route as I like the direct service to Blighty.
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RyanairGuru
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:54 am

Quoting OA412 (Reply 17):
What does this mean?

52J, as opposed to 72J on the "High-J" aircraft.

BA have two 747 configurations: "Mid-J" 14F/52J/36W/243Y and "High-J" 14F/70J/30W/185Y.

As you could guess from the terminology there used to be a "Low-J" configuration, but there are no aircraft in that configuration anymore. IIRC "Low-J" died out with the LGW 747 base?
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steve6666
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Fri Oct 17, 2014 10:33 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 19):
IIRC "Low-J" died out with the LGW 747 base?

No, it was around until the 2006 Club World cabin came in I believe.
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nbmike
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Fri Oct 17, 2014 11:22 am

It is a popular and busy route. I operated on this route earlier this month (mixed fleet are operating the route for October), we were full in all cabins. I operated out on a 3 class 777 and back on a 4 class 777 with first sold as club.
 
klwright69
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:28 pm

DEN to London is an established market that has been around a very long time. Lots of connections on BA through LHR to points all over.

There would be some paid F seats but I can't imagine it being a large market.

CO started DEN-LGW in 1987 (I was there earlier that day in June and saw their DC10 sitting there waiting for the flight). Before that I think Western flew it.

I have flown on the LH 747 from FRA to DEN. Of course they have the Star A hub in DEN.

The city and the region as a whole only have a few nonstops to Europe. Airplane scheduling and routing are relevant factors, but I am sure the route can support the 747.
 
vv701
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RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 19):
IIRC "Low-J" died out with the LGW 747 base?

Later than that. The last BA 744 service to operate out of LGW was suspended on 10 June 2002. It was a rotation to MCO that had been operated up until then by G-BNLN and G-CIVJ. Since then all BA long-haul scheduled flights out of LGW have been operated by 772s.

The first BA 744 to be converted from a 'Lo J' to a 'Mid J' configuration was GBNLU. It re-entered service after conversion on 1 March 2007 when it operated LHR-MIA. The last 744 'Mid J' conversion re-entered service on 7 November 2007. The seats installed during this reconfiguration were the then new BA second generation lie-flat J Class seat.
 
KD5MDK
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Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:05 am

RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:01 am

Quoting HUYfan (Reply 15):
I would have thought a 3 class 747 mid-J with F as a CW overflow would have been more appropriate, but I haven't seen the numbers.

I don't think the 3 class 744 is a product BA really wants to promote, just an artifact of the time it takes to refit to New First/replace aircraft that aren't getting it.
 
vv701
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Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:54 am

RE: BA To Go 747 To DEN

Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:58 am

Quoting kd5mdk (Reply 24):
I don't think the 3 class 744 is a product BA really wants to promote

Correct. BA did not install their New F Class product in several 'Mid J' configured aircraft. Their reasoning seems to have been that these aircraft would be retired fairly soon in front of a major (probably D) scheduled maintenance procedure. The retired aircraft would be replaced by new recently delivered aircraft.

However it seems that events overtook these plans. A delay in delivery of aircraft on order meant that these maintenance procedures had to be implememted if BA was to have sufficient aircraft to operate their full long-haul schedules. Instead other aircraft that had been fitted with their New F product took their place in the desert at a date that was later than that originally planned.

The result is that BA decided to operate four rotations, one to each of CPT, LAS. PHX and YVR, using five of these aircraft - the aircraft operating the CPT rotation is away from LHR for more than 24 hours - without selling the F cabin seats except in the case of up-grades from a full 52-seat J Class cabin. This would minimise the risk of a passenger purchasing an F Class ticket and getting the old F Class product.

Currently BA has six 'Mid J' configured 744s operating with the old F product, G-BNLF, 'LJ, 'LW to 'LY and G-CIVC. So it does have a 'spare' aircraft that could be used if the DEN service were to be switched to a 744 for the Winter Schedule. However BA ferried a Mid J configured 744 fitted with the old F product (G-BNLI) to the desert as recently as 20 August. So it is quite possible that by the start of the next Summer Season another will have joined it leaving only the necessary five aircraft to operate the existing three-class 744 services.

On the other hand the oldest of these five aircraft, G-BNLF, only re-entered service on 4 October. Prior to that it had spent twenty days under maintenance at Cardiff. So it is not going to the desert anytime soon . . ..

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