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SLCUT2777
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Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:23 pm

It looks as if the end is drawing closer as DL has now announced "accelerated" 747 retirements as they restructure trans-Pacific service and CFO/Pres. Ed Bastian mentions the forthcoming expansion of the A330 fleet will augment the retiring 744's:
http://www.usatoday.com/story/todayi...-will-be-retired-by-2017/17350781/
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STT757
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:34 pm

Looks like UA will be the last US airline to operate 747s in passenger service. Their replacement, A350-1000s, begin arriving in 2018.
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:50 pm

Retirement rate of 4 per year:

2014: 4 (3 already parked, 1 more by year end) - 12 in service at year end
2015: 4 - 8 in service at year end
2016: 4 - 4 in service at year end
2017: 4 - out
 
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Revelation
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 4:58 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Thread starter):
Ed Bastian mentions the forthcoming expansion of the A330 fleet will augment the retiring 744's:

That shows you how wrong Airbus can be - they said the A380 would be the 747 killer, not the A330!   
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:06 pm

Wow, didn't DL just spend a pretty penny upgrading their 744 fleet?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
That shows you how wrong Airbus can be - they said the A380 would be the 747 killer, not the A330! 

Too funny. Too true.
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:09 pm

Time to find the domestic runs for that one last ride.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 4):
Wow, didn't DL just spend a pretty penny upgrading their 744 fleet?

They did. It was reflected in the special items in their earnings, and that is being discussed in the earnings thread.
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:18 pm

So that means 12 year old N676NW's flying career really is done. What a shame. Was also hoping N661US would hit 30. I guess 747 fans should just be happy that they lasted as long as they did with Delta.
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:25 pm

Which airlines have operated 747s the longest? It's gotta either be UA, BA, or LH.
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:29 pm

My guess is there will quite the retirement party for the 744 in 2017 with special domestic sections, etc.

Heck they did the DC-9 retirement tour in Jan 2014, you can guarentee the DL 744 retirement will be high profile event in the aviation community.
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:54 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 7):
Which airlines have operated 747s the longest? It's gotta either be UA, BA, or LH.

Lufthansa took delivery of their first 747-130 .... Line #12 ... D-ABYA on March 10, 1970

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Air France took delivery of their first 747-128 .... Line #19 ... F-BPVA on March 20, 1970

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Photo © Michel Gilliand



British Airways took delivery of their first 747-136 .... Line #23 G-AWNA on April 22, 1970

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Photo © George W. Hamlin

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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 5:55 pm

So, I've still got time to get aboard a DL 747. Good.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 8):

I'd be all in for that.
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UA444
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:09 pm

Quoting deltacto (Reply 9):

Thanks for that. I completely forgot about AF. When did UA take delivery of the first 747-122?
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:13 pm

DL is running a 744 on ATL-MSP-ATL--I've already booked 79K for the flight out on the upper deck and 1A in the nose one the way back.

Delta Air Lines 747-400 On ATL-MSP-ATL 30 NOV 2014 (by LPDAL Oct 11 2014 in Aviation Polls)

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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:19 pm

Domestic 744 flights have been loaded for ATL-MSP on the Sunday after Thanksgiving 11/30/14:

DL 340 ATL MSP 0730 0904 744
DL 2345 MSP ATL 1015 1341 744
DL 744 ATL MSP 1446 1630 744
DL 1799 MSP ATL 1735 1905 744

Looks like roundtrips on the route for the day are around $480 in Y.
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 6:25 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 11):
Thanks for that. I completely forgot about AF. When did UA take delivery of the first 747-122

I believe it was this one on June 30, 1970.

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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting max550 (Reply 14):
I believe it was this one on June 30, 1970.

What about DL? Didn't they have 4 741s before the L-1011s arrived?
 
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deltacto
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 15):
What about DL? Didn't they have 4 741s before the L-1011s arrived?

Delta's first 747-132 was Line #72 ... N9896 ... delivered September 26, 1970

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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:27 pm

A333 HGW (242T) can do most of the old NW 741/742 missions like LAX-NRT, SEA-NRT, MSP-NRT, NRT-HNL on a fraction of the fuel. Same revenue passenger count (at a higher load factor), same freight. Fuel savings vs. 744 are drastic. The end has come.
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:28 pm

Quoting cageyjames (Reply 15):
What about DL? Didn't they have 4 741s before the L-1011s arrived?

Looks like they had 5. airfleets.net is a great resource for looking up such things.
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/D...lta%20Air%20Lines-history-b747.htm
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:50 pm

On todays earnings call they mentioned twice that slow removal of the 744 would add $100mil to 2015 profitability.

Thats tells you how much of a financial burden the type is.
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 7:51 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 17):
A333 HGW (242T) can do most of the old NW 741/742 missions like LAX-NRT, SEA-NRT, MSP-NRT, NRT-HNL on a fraction of the fuel. Same revenue passenger count (at a higher load factor), same freight. Fuel savings vs. 744 are drastic. The end has come.

If Delta never put paying butts in seats 294 (one more than current 333 seating) to 374 (744 seating), that would be a valid comparison.

Anderson gave a mini lecture on the earnings call today, reminding listeners of the analytical value of comparing ownership costs to operating costs.
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 10:44 pm

Well, I am just going to rest assured that I'm going to add a few 744 flights to my belt after gorging myself on Thanksgiving--three flights on various 744s (already had a LH 744 on MIA-FRA-MIA in July 2009 in Y) is better than none. Here's to hoping I'll get the first 744 prototype bird--what was the reg on that one again? Or just two different tail numbers would suffice.   

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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:11 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 8):
My guess is there will quite the retirement party for the 744 in 2017 with special domestic sections, etc.

I'm game for ATL-DTW-MSP  

[Edited 2014-10-16 16:14:53]
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:12 pm

This is a shame...
DL actually puts effort in to 744's and they're getting the boot quick, UA puts very little to none in to theirs and they're sticking around.

I will say though, I'm surprised that they're planning to replace them with 330's. Could that also be a move of having a higher 330 frequency on 744 routes?
What about the 744 routes that are too long for 333's, how will they fill those in without ordering more 777's? (Which is really bizarre)
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:14 pm

Quoting S75752 (Reply 23):
Could that also be a move of having a higher 330 frequency on 744 routes?

Not likely. The 744s are really bigger aircraft than they need.

Quoting S75752 (Reply 23):
What about the 744 routes that are too long for 333's

The new 330s that will be arriving starting next year are higher-weight than current ones. They should be able to fly DTW-NRT. There are enough 777s for everything longer.

[Edited 2014-10-16 16:14:53]
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:22 pm

Quoting S75752 (Reply 23):
I will say though, I'm surprised that they're planning to replace them with 330's. Could that also be a move of having a higher 330 frequency on 744 routes?
What about the 744 routes that are too long for 333's, how will they fill those in without ordering more 777's? (Which is really bizarre)

Keep in mind "replace with A330" doesn't mean an A330 has to directly replace the 747 route by route. The new A330s can also take over flying for 777 routes that can be shifted over to former 747 routes if needed.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:31 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 24):
Not likely. The 744s are really bigger aircraft than they need.

Also the USAToday article eluded to Boeing shuttering their 45 year old 747 assembly line. It's highly doubtful that DL, AA, UA or AC will take on any 748's or any A380 aircraft. These large jumbos will now be strictly foreign flag carriers.

Quoting polot (Reply 25):
Keep in mind "replace with A330" doesn't mean an A330 has to directly replace the 747 route by route. The new A330s can also take over flying for 777 routes that can be shifted over to former 747 routes if needed.

  

Quoting S75752 (Reply 23):
UA puts very little to none in to theirs and they're sticking around.

Probably no later than they can get A350s delivered. The desert salvage bases will be full of 744s that cargo carriers don't want.
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Thu Oct 16, 2014 11:43 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 24):
Quoting S75752 (Reply 23):
Could that also be a move of having a higher 330 frequency on 744 routes?

Not likely. The 744s are really bigger aircraft than they need.

Also with the connecting feed of the NRT hub coming down, they are indirectly attempting to focus on the TPAC ops through DTW and SEA. They can reduce capacity / increase yields. Plus they can always upgauge or even go double-daily on smaller aircraft if it made sense.

Plus DL still hasn't shown its cards on the pending widebody RFP.
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:04 am

Checkout this link for info on the 747-100's from Delta. There's photo's and an ad that describes the "Private Penthouse" with diagram on the upper deck that you could have reserved in the first class cabin.

www.l1011.homestead.com/747.html
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:21 am

Makes me wonder if they have somehow managed to get some early A350 delivery slots, it's certainly a co-incidence that the A35J goes into service just as their 744's leave.
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:37 am

One question I have is what now does DL do with this pool of former NW 744 pilots? It's much easier say for an MD88 pilot to train and qualify on a 717 than it is for a 744 pilot to downgrade to an A330 or a 772LR/ER or even a 763/764ER. I'm sure the pay classification in the present pilots contract is less as well.
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 12:51 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 30):
It's much easier say for an MD88 pilot to train and qualify on a 717 than it is for a 744 pilot to downgrade to an A330 or a 772LR/ER or even a 763/764ER. I'm sure the pay classification in the present pilots contract is less as well.

Seat for seat and seniority for seniority, there usually isn't much pay scale difference between the various widebodies. The smaller ones might pay slightly less, but there is generally a lot of parity in pay scales between the various aircraft.

Also, an airplane is an airplane. The 744 pilots will be able to bid other aircraft, go through type specific training, and all will be well. There's no reason why a 744 pilot would have any difficulty flying any other type in the fleet.
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:12 am

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 29):
Makes me wonder if they have somehow managed to get some early A350 delivery slots, it's certainly a co-incidence that the A35J goes into service just as their 744's leave.
Quoting polot (Reply 25):
The new A330s can also take over flying for 777 routes that can be shifted over to former 747 routes if needed.

Some slightly used 773ER's could potentially be picked up by DL on some of the thicker routes that truly need capacity of over 300 passengers on a frequent basis. Keep in mind their 772LR/ER's seat 291. The A330's @250.
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:15 am

Somebody was real fast updating the note associated to Delta's B747-400 fleet on Wikipedia citing same article seen in this thread original post!!

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 24):
Not likely. The 744s are really bigger aircraft than they need.

In the history of Delta B747 seems to always be bigger than they needed!!
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:30 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 32):
Some slightly used 773ER's could potentially be picked up by DL on some of the thicker routes that truly need capacity of over 300 passengers on a frequent basis.

I don't know why, perhaps my own bias. But after years of vanilla because of the "gentleman's agreement" they got to taste chocolate for the first time in the form of the A330 - And they kinda liked it.

Makes me wonder if they are curious as to what other flavours are out there.....
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:52 am

Quoting 777stl (Reply 31):

Seat for seat and seniority for seniority, there usually isn't much pay scale difference between the various widebodies. The smaller ones might pay slightly less, but there is generally a lot of parity in pay scales between the various aircraft.

777 is paid the same as 744. Just below is the 787 (not currently in the fleet), then the 764ER/A330, and then the 763(ER), the latter which is paid the same as the 757.

[Edited 2014-10-16 18:54:59]
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SLCUT2777
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 1:58 am

Quoting Clipper101 (Reply 33):
In the history of Delta B747 seems to always be bigger than they needed!!

It's fast becoming a dinosaur for North American operators. AC bailed in 2004, now DL (ex NW) and probably by 2018 UA. AA never had a fleet of 744's.
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:05 am

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 34):

If by "they" you mean Anderson, he already was familiar with the 330 from the NW days so there's no real newness there...
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:05 am

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 12):
DL is running a 744 on ATL-MSP-ATL--I've already booked 79K for the flight out on the upper deck and 1A in the nose one the way back.

Delta is running this flight to move the Black Friday/after Thanksgiving traffic between two hubs and you use it for a joy ride on a 744. Out-freakin-standing!   
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:22 am

This is very sad, but secretly, I had to know it would come to this. I've been a 747 fan all my life. Now I can see a time where we will croon for our beloved planes the way people always did about stratocruisers and Connies. At least I had the pleasure to fly ON a few 747s. The only thing I liked about the NW merger was the fact that Delta was flying 747s again. But this is the story everywhere- 4 holers are on the way out  
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:25 am

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 29):
Makes me wonder if they have somehow managed to get some early A350 delivery slots, it's certainly a co-incidence that the A35J goes into service just as their 744's leave.

That could definitely be. But I think it's even more likely that either 1) they snuck a few early 787-9 slots or 2) they agreed, as lots of us have been suggesting they might, to take some very late 777-300ERs at a heavy discount. It's not really Delta's usual style to take very early-build examples of anything.
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 3:29 am

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 38):

Delta is running this flight to move the Black Friday/after Thanksgiving traffic between two hubs and you use it for a joy ride on a 744. Out-freakin-standing!

Well, show me some other domestic 744 service and I'll gladly buy it. Mind you all they had left in the upfront fare buckets was the "F" (fully refundable flexible) fare class, and to be honest the tickets cost me an arm, leg, and a piece of my mind. Looking at the seat map now it appears these flights are filling up by the second, so I'm glad I snagged my suites in time.

Not to mention I've never traveled during the busiest time of the year, Thanksgiving, and I really want to see how efficient FLL, ATL, MSP are when their facilities are stretched to the limit. Not to mention...the FREEZING weather. This Florida boy is tired of the "sandy beaches" and really wants to move up north. BIL, FAR, GFK, BOI, etc. etc.....I'm going to CVG on the 19th (this Sunday, October 19th) and I can't wait to feel the cold!   

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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:11 am

So it would seem that DL Is retiring a number of very large frames used on long-haul flights, but there is no replacement in the works. Does this mean that we might see a reduction in frequency on certain routes, or the cancellation of certain routes altogether?
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:29 am

Wow, after posting how the 744s economics would have it retired soon... I didn't think 2017 soon!   

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
That shows you how wrong Airbus can be - they said the A380 would be the 747 killer, not the A330!

     

The 744 is my favorite plane. Economically, its time may have come, but I'm still sad to see the queen of the skies go.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 4):
Wow, didn't DL just spend a pretty penny upgrading their 744 fleet?

As already noted. Yep. Sunk cost. Time to reduce going forward expenses.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 19):
On todays earnings call they mentioned twice that slow removal of the 744 would add $100mil to 2015 profitability.

   8 planes save $100mil?!? Plausible... and sad.  
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 42):
So it would seem that DL Is retiring a number of very large frames used on long-haul flights, but there is no replacement in the works. Does this mean that we might see a reduction in frequency on certain routes, or the cancellation of certain routes altogether?

Reduction in gauge.


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MIflyer12
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:42 am

Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 29):
Makes me wonder if they have somehow managed to get some early A350 delivery slots, it's certainly a co-incidence that the A35J goes into service just as their 744's leave.

Three have left the fleet. Another will leave this year. There will be departures every year into 2017. Do 35J deliveries start tomorrow? You're really look to make a connection where none may exist.
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:46 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 43):
Reduction in gauge.

But there will also be fewer airframes to go around.
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 4:58 am

Probably for all the displaced NW employees that moved to ATL but still have family back in MSP.....

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 41):
Not to mention I've never traveled during the busiest time of the year, Thanksgiving, and I really want to see how efficient FLL, ATL, MSP are when their facilities are stretched to the limit. Not to mention...the FREEZING weather.

The Thanksgiving travel period is not the busiest travel period of the year, it is a media-driven myth that has become lore of its own. The Sunday after Thanksgiving isn't even the top 5 days of the year. The peak volume travel days of the year are typically Fridays in late June and July. The only difference with the Thanksgiving travel period is than it is an abrupt spike compared to the surrounding period which is generally a slower part of the year, and the passenger mix. It is almost all VFR and leisure, versus the other busier times which have a higher mix of business/road warrior / and-or Elite travlers. You won't see ATL, MSP, or FLL any more "packed" than a typical summer travel day, except just a lot more infrequent and unexperienced travelers.

Also, MSP probably won't be all that cold that time of the year, at leat compared to January. It could be 50 and sunny, it could be 25 and snowing. It won't be the sub-zero temps of January though.
 
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RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:06 am

This is bad news (for us, obviously not for Delta), but what I want to know is WHICH planes are being retired during which years.
Anyone have the scoop?

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 46):
The Thanksgiving travel period is not the busiest travel period of the year, it is a media-driven myth that has become lore of its own. The Sunday after Thanksgiving isn't even the top 5 days of the year.

I'd love to see some numbers to back up that claim. I detest traveling during Thanksgiving OR Christmas, not just because of the number of travelers, but because of the number of BAD travelers. Namely, famillies, the elderly, and others who never otherwise fly. I can get through the TSA checkpoint in two minutes flat, but not during the Holidays!
 
timpdx
Posts: 674
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2009 1:54 am

RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:20 am

Shame to see them go. All my DL INTL travels (like HND and AMS) have been on A330 series and if through ATL then on a 763. Not had the chance to experience the 747 on a domestic flight in a loooooong time. Probably back to the 80's with Peoplexpress! I've done domestic 764, 763, 777, L1011, MD10 & 11 and A300 since Peoplexpress. But flying a US carrier 747 domestic or even longhaul may not happen again for me. Last time I flew on a 747 at all was in 2008 on MH LAX-TPE-KUL and return.
Flown 2018: LAX, ARN, DXB, ALA, TAS, UCG, ASB, MYP, GYD, TBS, KUT, BER, TLS, SVO, CCF, DUB, LGW, MEX, BUR, PDX, ORD, SLC, SNA
Upcoming 2018: STL, MIA, BZE, IAH, BHM, LHR, DFW, PHX
 
astuteman
Posts: 6931
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:50 pm

RE: Delta Will "phase Out" 747 Service By 2017

Fri Oct 17, 2014 5:23 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
That shows you how wrong Airbus can be - they said the A380 would be the 747 killer, not the A330!

Did they actually say that?

Rgds

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