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SCQ83
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TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 7:52 am

The article is in Spanish:

http://politica.elpais.com/politica/.../actualidad/1413573664_255801.html

This (legally) woman started working for TK as check-in agent at MAD and (according to her version), during the trial period in her contract she was asked whether she had been a man previously. She didn't pass her trial period, contrary to the other 16 people in her course. TK argues that she wasn't hired because she didn't have the necessary technical requirements.

So this bring IMO another point of the ME3 and TK expanding businesses in the West (and given more rights) coming from countries like the UAE, Qatar and Turkey that openly discriminates based on religion, sex, age, sexual orientation or nationality.

Thoughts?
 
rutankrd
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:17 am

A man that has his part chopped off and some plastic surgery and requires a barrage of hormone treatments for the rest of their life remains a man.

Gender reassignment however may deal with the psychological issues of said individual to a degree.

The question here in one of lying to an employer.
 
SCQ83
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:21 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 1):
The question here in one of lying to an employer.

She was legally a woman, so she was not lying to anyone. Also, if it is true that TK asked for her past, that is clear discrimination. That is the difference between Spain (or most Western countries) and Turkey.
 
JU068
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:19 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 2):
Also, if it is true that TK asked for her past, that is clear discrimination.

Why would it be? I see nothing wrong with TK asking these kind of questions, she/he is their employee. This is no different than when they ask you to prove you were not convicted in the past.
 
SCQ83
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:32 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 3):
Why would it be? I see nothing wrong with TK asking these kind of questions, she/he is their employee. This is no different than when they ask you to prove you were not convicted in the past.

Are you serious? Are you comparing being convicted with having gone through sex reassignment? Enough said.
 
bill142
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:40 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 3):
Why would it be? I see nothing wrong with TK asking these kind of questions, she/he is their employee. This is no different than when they ask you to prove you were not convicted in the past.

So you would be fine with your employer asking you questions about your private life that have absolutely no impact on how you do your job or present a risk to the company?
 
JU068
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:02 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 4):

Yes, I am. The employer has to know who he is employing. If the employee has a problem then he/she is not forced to accept the job.

Quoting bill142 (Reply 5):

Like I said, if you don't like the policies then don't take the job. Simple as that. I will not expand on this topic because we will start a whole non-aviation discussion. Have a nice day.
 
SCQ83
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:07 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 6):
Yes, I am. The employer has to know who he is employing. If the employee has a problem then he/she is not forced to accept the job.

That is fortunately not the way things work in socially developed countries like the US and most of the EU. The employee does not "have a problem"; the problem is with Turkish Airlines for which having gone through sex reassignment is a problem (which is a discrimination in a place like Spain).
 
Scorpio
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:09 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 6):
Yes, I am. The employer has to know who he is employing. If the employee has a problem then he/she is not forced to accept the job.

Wrong. The employer has to know only those things that are relevant to the job the person is hired to do. Whether you have a criminal record can very much be relevant, especially in a sector like aviation. Having gone through sex change is not relevant. It's part of one's private life. It's called private for a reason.
 
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moo
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:12 am

Quoting bill142 (Reply 5):
So you would be fine with your employer asking you questions about your private life that have absolutely no impact on how you do your job or present a risk to the company?

Problem is, it can have an effect on the ability to do the job, or present a risk to the company. She was a public facing employee, she's going to be exposed to the unwashed masses and those unwashed masses have some unkind people in them.

We have a trans sexual in our office. She tries hard, wears the right clothes, puts makeup on, does the girly things in the break room etc. But at the end of the day she's a man in a skirt, and she looks like a man in a skirt. If she was public facing, she'd get a lot of stick for the way she looks (she does when she goes shopping etc people stare, questions are asked, comments are made).

Fair play to her for doing what she feels she needs to do, but at some point the company gets involved - in our case, it was a company wide meeting which detailed how her situation was to be approached, how comments and questions were to be handled, and how public issues were to be dealt with. There was an effect on the company, the company had to get involved.

If she was public facing, then the company would have to get involved there also - some idiots can get quite ugly over such issues, especially when they feel they can get what they want by being cruel. So there is additional support required, additional training, additional involvement.

So yes, it does affect the company.
 
JU068
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:14 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 8):
Wrong. The employer has to know only those things that are relevant to the job the person is hired to do

Well, from what I understood this person was working as a ground host(ess) so my guess is that TK has to know since they do interact with the passengers. In a way they are the face of the airline. If it was an office job then it could be understandable.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 7):

Well he/she is always welcome to sue if he/she feels that there was discrimination.
 
Scorpio
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:25 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 10):
Well, from what I understood this person was working as a ground host(ess) so my guess is that TK has to know since they do interact with the passengers

No they don't. They have to know if the person can do their job well. Having had a seks change does not influence a person's ability to interact with people.
 
JU068
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:32 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 11):

Well, I still think they have to know. Turkish Airlines has a lot of passengers flying to conservative parts of the world and these passengers might not be thrilled by this. Turkish Airlines has to consider this as well. You might not like it but that's the reality. And as Moo pointed out, it's not that difficult to spot a transexual person.
It would be a different story if this person was working in an office or so on.
 
SCQ83
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:38 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 12):
Well, I still think they have to know. Turkish Airlines has a lot of passengers flying to conservative parts of the world and these passengers might not be thrilled by this. Turkish Airlines has to consider this as well.

She is based in Madrid, not in Istanbul, Belgrade or Riyadh, so she would be under a local contract, and they have to comply with anti-discrimination policies in the country. The same way that local workers at British Airways or Air France in Saudi Arabia will have to comply with local regulations, and you will not find a blonde Western woman without a headscarf doing your check-in in RUH.

If Turkish does not like the way things work in Western Europe, they are free to leave.
 
JU068
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:43 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 13):

If there was discrimination then the person is always more than welcome to sue Turkish Airlines.  
 
777way
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 10:54 am

Interestingly in PIA a trasnsexual served as cabin crew from 1960s uptil 2003 or so, looked like a man behaved like a woman, called himself female, also had a colourful private life doing cabarets in Beirut,, had a Greek boyfriend who wanted to marry him, no issues at all with the airline, was very professional and stern with crew and passengers when required, the only ruling applied was that he had to appear as a man on duty so no female uniform, or long hair, makeup, nails, jewels, but he would colour his hair some times streaked blond, or full red head,

However he got in the job through his contacts in Pakistani elite society, its said Bhutto family did so, no one else of such type has been hired by the airline ever.

BTW Emirates cancelled a British womans acceptence as cabin crew when her last medical report history sent in showed she was treated for depression, she started a campagin on facebook.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:00 am

This reminds me of a case we had in Berlin in the late 1980s. BMW wanted to fire an assembly line worker and shop steward because he didn't tell them when he was hired that he was actually a multi millionaire.
This guy came from a rich industrialist family, was actually a Harvard graduate, but had quite leftwing political views, over which he fell out with his parents. He didn't want to live as a rich heir, but of the income he could earn with his own hands, so he started working as an ordinary worker at BMW's motorbike factory in Berlin. He joined the union, and being eloquent and not easy to fool, he soon became a popular shop steard and worker's rep, who was regularly involved in negotiations with the management.
Eventually his parents died and left their business empire to him, but he didn't want to use the income for personal purposes. He took some of it and used it for donations for various projects though, but he was still living in a small flat of his income as factory worker.
Eventually BMW found out and tried to get rid of him, claiming that having this money in his backpocket made him too independent.

The whole thing went to labour court and BMW lost. The judge stated that the personal income situation of an employee is none of the company's business.

Jan

[Edited 2014-10-18 04:02:30]
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MillwallSean
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:15 am

First, to discuss this possible case we need to know Spanish labour legislation. What we think, assume or have come across in our countries doesn't matter here. This case would be heard under Spanish legislation.
I am inclined to guess that Spanish legislation don't allow an employer to ask questions that is unrelated to the performance of the job. So I doubt that they can claim that such info should be given. However thats just a guess.

Also, those of you having a go at TK, its quite likely this decision is done by another Spaniard hired and working for TK and not by the airline itself because they don't like people changing sex. In any way, even if its a Turkish man who has made the decision, maybe a expat manager it has nothing to do with TK in Istanbul. Important to keep that in mind when we discuss this.
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jetwet1
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:23 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 6):
Yes, I am. The employer has to know who he is employing. If the employee has a problem then he/she is not forced to accept the job.

If the employer has a problem with it, they should never have gotten into the training program, at that point, they are done, if a position requires a certain look then ok, however, once you take that person on, you accept them for what they are, blame the recruiting agent for this mess.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 12):

Well, I still think they have to know. Turkish Airlines has a lot of passengers flying to conservative parts of the world and these passengers might not be thrilled by this. Turkish Airlines has to consider this as well

Yes, and TK has to consider they do business in parts of the world that are not so conservative, and if they don't like that then they are free not to serve those area.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 12):
You might not like it but that's the reality. And as Moo pointed out, it's not that difficult to spot a transexual person.

Yeah, sure, okay, google Caroline Cossey

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
This reminds me of a case we had in Berlin in the late 1980s.

Wow, crazy that BMW would try that on, in my time running companies I have actually had two people (including one right now) that have hit a lottery, the current kid is 22 years old, hit the California lottery for $20m, got bored and is now working for me as a craps dealer.
 
PanHAM
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:30 am

...and I thought that the Balkans are no longer backwards.

There are questions an employer simply does not have to ask, like the one discussed here. It is NOTFB of an employer what someone does in private with his/her private parts. In socially developed countries, an employer is not even allowed to ask a women whether she is pregnant or not and if he does ask and she lies, that is fully OK and cannot be challenged in court.

.
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flyboy_se
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:33 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 12):
Turkish Airlines has a lot of passengers flying to conservative parts of the world and these passengers might not be thrilled by this. Turkish Airlines has to consider this as well. You might not like it but that's the reality

Those passengers are actually in Spain, so if they don´t like it, it is their problem.
If anyone has a problem with it, they are more than welcome not to visit and keep their closed minds to themselves.
You may not like it but that´s the reality.
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JU068
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:55 am

Well, like I said. If he/she feels like he/she was discriminated against then he/she is more than welcome to sue the airline. There is no reason the Spanish court would side with Turkish Airlines. I guess I am not lucky enough to be as 'socially enlightened' as some Western members on here so please do forgive me.  
Of course, there is no chance that there is more to this story.
 
pa747sp
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 11:57 am

If the job can be done by a woman or a man (and in this case clearly it can), then the persons gender now, or in the past, does not matter.
If Spanish law makes it illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender identity, then the employer has no defence to say that their customers may be offended by the person. If that was a defence, the airline could apply any sort of discriminatory behaviour on the basis that potentially one of its customers could be offended. If an airline wishes to fly to a particular country they have got to accept that the laws of that country apply to them, no matter if those laws (or even social mores) may differ from those of the countries domicile.
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777way
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:00 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):

There are questions an employer simply does not have to ask, like the one discussed here. It is NOTFB of an employer what someone does in private with his/her private parts. In socially developed countries, an employer is not even allowed to ask a women whether she is pregnant or not and if he does ask and she lies, that is fully OK and cannot be challenged in court.

So how do you explain the many transexuals who choose to go stealth even in socially developed societies, Air France were to fire one such cabin member but courts let her stay, she did however recieve alot of problems from fellow crew especially the women.
 
kaitak
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:16 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Thread starter):
This (legally) woman started working for TK as check-in agent at MAD and (according to her version), during the trial period in her contract she was asked whether she had been a man previously. She didn't pass her trial period, contrary to the other 16 people in her course. TK argues that she wasn't hired because she didn't have the necessary technical requirements.

The airline hired her and only now they are saying that she doesn't have the right technical requirements. I am sorry, but this is dishonest on TK's part; of course, they don't want to come out and say that they fired her because of her gender reassignment/identity. It is excellent that EU law now protects transgendered people from discrimination which - in this case at least - appears to be no just unfair, but dishonest. I sincerely hope TK is forced to state exactly what technical requirements she didn't meet and how they evaluated the others on her course (who seem to have got through).

I'd say "good luck to TK in proving this", but it would be a lie. Welcome to the 21st century; they claim to be a major European carrier, from a modern European society? Act like one.
 
AngMoh
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:22 pm

So what if the person really could not do the job?

I have seen two cases which led to follow up legal action:
* One where a 50+ year old software engineer was fired. He had a poor performance and refused to follow corporate processes. He sued for age discrimination while it definitely performance related. It became a messy affair and was finally settled out of court after the employee was arrested running outside the office at night with a gun and a bomb.
* We had one case where we laid off a pregnant employee because the whole department was being closed. Her claim was that she was laid off for being pregnant while in fact the whole group was being laid off. She lost the case as the required additional compensation was paid (including up-front payment of maternity leave).

The fact that it goes to court does not mean it is downright discrimination. Most companies are not that stupid to do it blatantly. It is probably for more messy than that.
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PanHAM
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 12:34 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 23):
So how do you explain the many transexuals who choose to

It is not up to me or anyone else to explain other people's decisions. We are individuals and have the right to be individuals.

An employer has no influence in the private lives of his employees.
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777way
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:10 pm

They go stealth because to avoid harrassment and discrimination and this is happening in western countries.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 1:25 pm

I am not going to get involved in the sexual side of this debate, but isn't a trial period means exactly that, trial, you can be accepted after that period or not. Unless the person can prove that he was dismissed for the genre operation history and not because that person was proven that he/she is not capable of staying on the job, then he/she has no case here.
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aircatalonia
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:56 pm

In these kinds of jobs you are practically a slave. Trial periods mean they can fire you any day without any explanation and you are not even entitled to ask why. Maybe they don't like how you speak, how you comb your hair or how your left ear looks, you will never know. It's the law in Spain.

I think she will have a hard time going anywhere with her case unless some political party gets involved.
 
bwwt
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 2:57 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 28):

I am not going to get involved in the sexual side of this debate, but isn't a trial period means exactly that, trial, you can be accepted after that period or not. Unless the person can prove that he was dismissed for the genre operation history and not because that person was proven that he/she is not capable of staying on the job, then he/she has no case here.

I don't think there would have been an issue if TK never asked questions it shouldn't have been asking. That coupled with everyone except the woman being hired makes it a bit suspicious.
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:55 pm

[quote=bwwt,reply=30]That coupled with everyone except the woman being hired makes it a bit suspicious. [/quote

We only heard from one side, my understanding and it seems like this exist all over the world, there is like a 90 days of trial or whatever they like to call it, where either and the end of that period you are hired permantely or bye bye thank you.

There no reason to ignore that maybe that person was not good at his job or did not manage to be a member of the team etc... There could be a lot of reason to terminate his employment.

I am not defending TK here, but unless we hear from them, i will not come to a conclusion .
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flyboy_se
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 3:59 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
...and I thought that the Balkans are no longer backwards.

What has Balkans got to do with this???

Very ignorant of you to put the a whole region in the same basket. One persons opinion does not represent a whole region.
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nautilusgr
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:01 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
...and I thought that the Balkans are no longer backwards.

how exactly does the 3% of the Balkans (which again is the 3% of Turkey) relate to the Balkans and the other nations in the Balkans?
 
northstar80
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:01 pm

It was interesting to read people bashing Turkish Airlines due to a misleading and provocative (to attract readers interest) article in a paper.

First, the ground people who work for TK in outstations are not TK personnel, but rather hired, work for and fired by the ground services company TK works with in that station. So, the person in the article, is never a TK employee. TK would never even know if such a person ever worked in ground service for them - they only get the service (the ground people at IST and other major TK airports are also not TK personnel, they work for a separate company which is JV with TK).

Secondly, the companies that do the ground services (ground hostesses or check-in personnel) do not work for a single airline, generally for TK, in smaller outstations like MAD, the person works for a ground handling company, does check-ins for TK for a couple hours and then works for another airline and then change back to TK again according to the days schedule. Probably, TK is the biggest name she could get the attention with.

So, no story here with TK, move along.
 
wing
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:14 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Thread starter):
So this bring IMO another point of the ME3 and TK expanding businesses in the West (and given more rights) coming from countries like the UAE, Qatar and Turkey that openly discriminates based on religion, sex, age, sexual orientation or nationality.

When you start making a generalisation like this,you sound like a biased person against the muslim countries.How did you come to a conclusion of accusing 3 different countries basing on a single incident ,which by the way we cant understand spanish and we cant argue depending on your prejeduced comments.

THY has a regional menager in Spain and I am sure he/she knows the rules and laws of the country he makes business.The general menagement has no effect of employement of the local personnel because in every country different rules apply.The regional menager(which generally a local person) decides who to employ and general menagement just accepts it.

So before jumping to the conclusions and accusing an entire country ????(not only the company) (actually 3 countries you know UAE,Quatar and Turkey are 3 different countries right?)show us your evidences,how it is not performance but just because she had a dick before.Is there any court decisions that ruled TK as a discriminator?Than we will all condemn who ever responsible of this...
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Steelyman
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:25 pm

As of when TK hires foreign personnel? TK has never considered other staff rather than Turkish or some CIS countries staff...
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777way
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:28 pm

Most keep their penis and vagina even after tramsitioning to the preferred gender, just to let you know.

Quoting wing (Reply 35):
but just because she had a dick before.
 
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mariner
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 8:33 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 37):
Most keep their penis and vagina even after tramsitioning to the preferred gender, just to let you know.

Not in the case of male to female, or not among the several transgender people that I know and know about.

It is comparatively (surgically) easy to turn a dick into a vagina - it is much more difficult to go the other way.

mariner

[Edited 2014-10-18 13:50:18]
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nautilusgr
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:21 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 37):
Most keep their penis and vagina even after tramsitioning to the preferred gender, just to let you know.

Most also keep their penis and vagina INSIDE their pants, thus making it irrelevant to their job function.
 
AR385
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RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sat Oct 18, 2014 9:34 pm

The story is more complicated than what readers here are basing their conclusions on. She, whose name is Lorena González paid 4,200 Euro for a 10 month course on a Spanish school, the Escuela Superior de Aeronáutica to become an FA. At the end of the course, and as part of the contract she signed with the school, they were to work for free with an airline. In this case, she ended up with TK. The 16 members of her class are all now working, and getting on with their practice month.

After just one day at work with TK, Manuel Tenorio, the person in the school in charge of these month long practices called her to his office and told her that "TK had called and said that they did not want her, she gave a bad image and they thought she was a man."

Remember, this is all according to Mr. Tenorio, not TK. When she denied being a man, Tenorio demanded her to be sincere with him, and asked her "Are you a man or not?"

TK was contacted by the newspaper cited here, and they denied that there had been any discrimination. "We work with people from all cultures, races, ages, and sexual condition, a basic pillar of this airline" was what Ms. Evelyne Hollands, TK´s spokesperson responded to El País. She further stated that in this case "there had been no discrimination because TK did all the exams required of all the candidates for that month´s practice under equal conditions."

All in all, I believe TK´s response is BS. Specially being TK, and specially being in Spain, which while being in Europe, is not known for being a bastion for the LGBT community in particular. Whatever liberal laws they may have. The reality is a different story. Many people there are still surprisingly backwards. I don´t know if the school has contracts with other airlines, but if they do, bad luck for her to end up with TK.

What Lorena is saying, is that since the practice month was promised by the school and is part of the contract, and that TK has not been able to say she was unqualified (she did work a day at TK after all and according to Ms. Hollands she took all the exams) she is entitled to her $4,200 Euro back. So I suppose she can sue the school, and then the school can sue TK, but I´m sure they won´t do that. Better for all for Lorena to get her money back. Lorena is also foreign born. She is Colombian. I´m sure that did not help her case at all.

Personally, I hope the Spanish justice, teaches a good lesson to TK and the Escuela Superior de Aeronáutica. But in Spain, with this government, that is very unlikely.

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 1):
The question here in one of lying to an employer.

Please elaborate. TK is not her employer. She paid for a course. Besides, there are no lies, she is not a man, in the eyes of the law.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 6):
if you don't like the policies then don't take the job. Simple as that. I will not expand on this topic because we will start a whole non-aviation discussion. Have a nice day.
Quoting JU068 (Reply 10):
so my guess is that TK has to know since they do interact with the passengers.
Quoting JU068 (Reply 10):
Well he/she is always welcome to sue if he/she feels that there was discrimination.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 21):
I guess I am not lucky enough to be as 'socially enlightened' as some Western members on here so please do forgive me.
Of course, there is no chance that there is more to this story.

That´s really an understatement. I believe that some of your comments belong in another era.

Quoting kaitak (Reply 24):
The airline hired her and only now they are saying that she doesn't have the right technical requirements.

Exactly. After confirming that "She performed all the exams required under equal conditions"
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:37 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
Spain, which while being in Europe, is not known for being a bastion for the LGBT community in particular

And yet Spain was the third country in the world (after the Netherlands and Belgium) to legalize same-sex marriage...  
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
AR385
Posts: 6935
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:05 am

Quoting UALWN (Reply 41):
And yet Spain was the third country in the world (after the Netherlands and Belgium) to legalize same-sex marriage...

As I said. Whatever the laws say, the attitudes are different. The entire article is an example. I don´t think Lorena should hold her breath waiting for those $4,200 Euro back.
 
BestWestern
Posts: 8349
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:21 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
4,200 Euro for a 10 month course on a Spanish school, the Escuela Superior de Aeronáutica to become an FA. At the end of the course, and as part of the contract she signed with the school, they were to work for free with an airline.

Honestly, this is the bigger scandal - Paying to work for free as a check-in agent.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
After just one day at work with TK, Manuel Tenorio, the person in the school in charge of these month long practices called her to his office and told her that "TK had called and said that they did not want her, she gave a bad image and they thought she was a man."

Maybe it was the school that screwed up, and not the airline.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
AR385
Posts: 6935
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:35 am

Quoting BestWestern (Reply 43):
Maybe it was the school that screwed up, and not the airline.

At first that´s what I thought. But remember, you do have Ms. Evelyne Hollands from TK on the record about what happened when asked by El País.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:27 am

Quoting jetwet1 (Reply 18):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
This reminds me of a case we had in Berlin in the late 1980s.

Wow, crazy that BMW would try that on, in my time running companies I have actually had two people (including one right now) that have hit a lottery, the current kid is 22 years old, hit the California lottery for $20m, got bored and is now working for me as a craps dealer.

From what I read this guy was a popular union shop steward (Betriebsrat, a member of the elected employee's council, which exists in most German companies, a kind of representation of the employees of a company with a special legal status), who negotiated hard (though reasonable) in favour of his colleagues. His financial background meant that BMW management could neither bribe nor threaten him.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 5:50 am

Quoting nautilusgr (Reply 33):
how exactly does the 3% of the Balkans (which again is the 3% of Turkey) relate to the Balkans and the other nations in the Balkans?

I was not referring to Turkey but to one particular member

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
That´s really an understatement. I believe that some of your comments belong in another era.

whose opinions are more than backwards, as stated by AR385 and I have phrased it positively. I hope it is understood now.

In general, any person can be fired within the trial period, which can be up to 6 month in most Euroüpean countries, without giving an explanation. But there are exceptions and this seems to be one. .
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5040
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 7:47 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 12):
Well, I still think they have to know. Turkish Airlines has a lot of passengers flying to conservative parts of the world and these passengers might not be thrilled by this. Turkish Airlines has to consider this as well. You might not like it but that's the reality. And as Moo pointed out, it's not that difficult to spot a transexual person.

There are also a lot of countries that have a lot of racists. Does that mean that an airline from such a country should be allowed to resufe to employ black people because it might offend some of their passengers? Of course not. Same here.
 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:51 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 47):
There are also a lot of countries that have a lot of racists. Does that mean that an airline from such a country should be allowed to resufe to employ black people because it might offend some of their passengers? Of course not. Same here.

These can not be compared as they are not the same, far from it actually.
I am entitled to have my views on transgenderism like you are entitled to have your own. Like I said earlier, this is not the place to discuss the role of transgendered people in our society. If you, or anyone else, feels like discussing this further feel free to write to me personally as this topic has little to do with civil aviation.

Have a nice day.
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5040
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:48 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 48):
These can not be compared as they are not the same, far from it actually.

Actually, yes they can. Your say the airline shouldn't need to hire her because some passengers might take offense. Some passengers might also take offense to black people. Yet that can not be an excuse not to hire them.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 48):
I am entitled to have my views on transgenderism like you are entitled to have your own. Like I said earlier, this is not the place to discuss the role of transgendered people in our society.

This isn't about anyone's views on transgenderism. It's about what's lawful, and what isn't. In fact, what you or me think of transgenderism is completely irrelevant in this discussion. These people have the right not to be discriminated against despite whatever view you or me have on their situation. And that's precisely the point of rights.

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