Moderators: jsumali2, richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
JU068
Posts: 2094
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:23 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:09 am

Quoting Scorpio (Reply 49):

*sigh* we can go on like this forever.

Look, if his/her rights were really affected then this person has every right to sue the school or the airline. If he-she does not do it then it can only mean that there is more to this story. I am not going to keep this discussion going until there is concrete proof of discrimination. THY is a multinational, professional airline and if they said that they had nothing to do with it then we should take their word for it. Without proof this is nothing more and nothing less than slander.
 
AR385
Posts: 6936
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 10:19 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 48):
If you, or anyone else, feels like discussing this further feel free to write to me personally as this topic has little to do with civil aviation.

Let´s see:

1) The article in El País involves a school of aeronautics training a woman to be an FA
2) The article in El País involves an airline, namely Turkish Airlines, that ended her month long practice without any explanation at all.
3) The article involves an airport, namely MAD, Adolfo Suarez International Airport
4) The article involves the (so far) alleged labor practices of an airline

So, I am sorry to inform you that yes, this topic has a lot to do with Civil Aviation. Particularly, in how countries with repressive and archaic laws and views on LGBT issues, deal with such communities in regards to their civil aviation industries.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 48):
I am entitled to have my views on transgenderism like you are entitled to have your own.

Yes you are. But your views are not above the law. And your comments:

Quoting JU068 (Reply 3):
Why would it be? I see nothing wrong with TK asking these kind of questions, she/he is their employee. This is no different than when they ask you to prove you were not convicted in the past.
Quoting JU068 (Reply 6):
Yes, I am. The employer has to know who he is employing. If the employee has a problem then he/she is not forced to accept the job.
Quoting JU068 (Reply 10):
Well, from what I understood this person was working as a ground host(ess) so my guess is that TK has to know since they do interact with the passengers. In a way they are the face of the airline. If it was an office job then it could be understandable.
Quoting JU068 (Reply 12):
Well, I still think they have to know. Turkish Airlines has a lot of passengers flying to conservative parts of the world and these passengers might not be thrilled by this. Turkish Airlines has to consider this as well. You might not like it but that's the reality. And as Moo pointed out, it's not that difficult to spot a transexual person.
It would be a different story if this person was working in an office or so on.
Quoting JU068 (Reply 14):
If there was discrimination then the person is always more than welcome to sue Turkish Airlines.

Show you have no understanding of LGBT related laws in the European Union. Or in Spain, where this matter is taking place. So yes, you are free to have your views. But in this particular case, your views are against the law. Maybe not in Vanuatu, where I assume you are located, but in this geography they are. So, unfortunately for you, it has to be said that your views are wrong, in this particular jurisdiction. The EU.

I thank you for your invitation to write to you personally on this matter. I´m sorry I can´t, due to having more pressing issues at hand to take care of plus my non-interest in having a debate on the merits of keeping a Dark Ages mentality in 2014. But, I encourage you to write to the EU Equality and Human Rights Commission in Brussels and explain to them why you think the treatment of Mrs. Lorena González and of many others in her condition is entirely right, and that they deserve it for not disclosing information (which they are not required to disclose, anyway) that you think is equal to that of being a convicted felon.

http://www.equalityhumanrights.com/a...rnational-framework/european-union

Good luck with your debate with them. Please let us know how it goes.

[Edited 2014-10-19 03:28:43]
 
Scorpio
Posts: 5043
Joined: Thu Oct 04, 2001 3:48 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:04 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 50):
*sigh* we can go on like this forever.

Look, if his/her rights were really affected then this person has every right to sue the school or the airline. If he-she does not do it then it can only mean that there is more to this story. I am not going to keep this discussion going until there is concrete proof of discrimination. THY is a multinational, professional airline and if they said that they had nothing to do with it then we should take their word for it. Without proof this is nothing more and nothing less than slander.

You're changing your stance. You've now moved from 'they have every right to refuse to hire her because of this' to 'well we don't know if that is why she wasn't hired'. And once again; IF she was fired for that reason, it's discrimination. What you think about that is impressively irrelevant.

And slander? I mean, really? Discussing whether a certain individual's case is discrimination or not is now slanderous?
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:57 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 42):
As I said. Whatever the laws say, the attitudes are different.

You'd be surprised about the attitudes in Spain. One of the ministers in the Catalan regional government got recently married to another guy. No big deal at all. I'm not sure there are many countries out there with openly gay (and same-sex married) ministers...
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9719
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:16 pm

Easy to top, the former German government was headed by a woman, her deputy and foreign minister was married to a man, the finance minister was tied to a wheelchair and the minister for the economy had Vietnamese roots. That carries on to the present German gvernment where the change is that one female minister is married to a woman and Vietnam is replaced by Turkey. If I am not mistaken, but that gets the curve to the topic.

And we have an airline, better airlines that employ people without discrimination regardless of sex, race and origin and in Berlin they started to have toilets for female, male and undecided.

, .   BTW, that's one of the reasons why BER is deleyed, they have to do some replanning in that field aswell.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
SOBHI51
Posts: 3949
Joined: Wed Jun 04, 2003 1:32 pm

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:20 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 54):
for female, male and undecided.

Unisex i understand, but undecided      
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
777way
Posts: 6457
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 12:23 pm

I think there was also some political figure in Ireland, got elected post transition from man to woman.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2186
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 1:02 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 54):
her deputy and foreign minister was married to a man

That's the only point relevant to this discussion. And, as I understand it, they cannot be legally married in Germany. They can only be registered as a same-sex couple, with most, but not all, the rights of a married couple. Not so in Spain, where full marriage of same-sex couples have been legal now for 10 years.
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/350/380
 
kaitak
Posts: 9939
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 5:49 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 2:36 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 56):
I think there was also some political figure in Ireland, got elected post transition from man to woman.

Not in Ireland, as far as I'm aware, but there was one in the UK, an MEP.

However, getting back to topic, it will be very interesting to see how this pans out. It looks very much like TK is just looking at another excuse to get rid of her; it will have to state exactly what technical criteria she failed to meet and to prove why this was a problem. While it is true that people in the early stages of on the job have very little legal protection, they do have protection from discrimination at every stage.

I think a warning shot needs to be fired by courts over this, not just to TK or airlines generally, but to employers - and a stiff fine to go with it.
 
copter808
Posts: 1384
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2000 1:14 pm

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Sun Oct 19, 2014 11:13 pm

Quoting JU068 (Reply 3):
Why would it be? I see nothing wrong with TK asking these kind of questions, she/he is their employee. This is no different than when they ask you to prove you were not convicted in the past.

Please don't ever ask this question if you're interviewing someone in the USA. It could become VERY expensive to you and your employer. VERY expensive!!! Even for a foreign airline.

However in other countries it may be permissible.
 
toxtethogrady
Posts: 1861
Joined: Sat Dec 23, 2000 12:33 pm

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Mon Oct 20, 2014 12:57 am

Quoting JU068 (Reply 3):
Why would it be? I see nothing wrong with TK asking these kind of questions, she/he is their employee. This is no different than when they ask you to prove you were not convicted in the past.

In the United States, an employer would not have the right to ask such questions and use the answers in an evaluation of the employee. But Turkey is a strange place, and they might have run afoul of certain protections that EU countries provide for their citizens. The airline will have to prove that this employee was not technically competent, because on the face of it, it sounds like the technical deficiency was gender reassignment surgery.
 
777way
Posts: 6457
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Mon Oct 20, 2014 11:33 am

Quoting copter808 (Reply 59):

Please don't ever ask this question if you're interviewing someone in the USA. It could become VERY expensive to you and your employer. VERY expensive!!! Even for a foreign airline.

But there are men and women hiding their sex change in that country, means that discrimination in job sector is happening.
 
lewis
Posts: 3586
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 1999 5:41 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Mon Oct 20, 2014 8:28 pm

Quoting nautilusgr (Reply 33):
how exactly does the 3% of the Balkans (which again is the 3% of Turkey) relate to the Balkans and the other nations in the Balkans?

I think that was mentioned because one of the posters supporting TK is from a Balkan country. But lets not kid ourselves here, she would have had it worse in most if not all Balkan countries, including Greece. We are unfortunately a very bad example for acceptance towards LGBT individuals.

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 60):
But Turkey is a strange place, and they might have run afoul of certain protections that EU countries provide for their citizens.

It would be very wrong to assume that all countries in the EU offer the same level of acceptance and protection by law. Some societies are very conservative and some do not even have laws that adhere to the directives given by the EU. Marriage is not allowed in all EU countries and legal recognition is not even on the table in some countries still. Turkey is actually more progressive in that respect than several countries in the continent that are part of the EU.

[Edited 2014-10-20 13:39:07]
 
KirkSeattle
Posts: 346
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:32 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:05 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Thread starter):
This (legally) woman started working for TK
Quoting JU068 (Reply 21):
If he/she feels

Per the first post, SHE.

Quoting JU068 (Reply 21):
he/she was discriminated against

She

Quoting JU068 (Reply 21):
then he/she is more than welcome to sue

She

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
TK was contacted by the newspaper cited here, and they denied that there had been any discrimination. "We work with people from all cultures, races, ages, and sexual condition, a basic pillar of this airline" was what Ms. Evelyne Hollands, TK´s spokesperson responded to El País.

Did anyone else catch this? "Sexual Condition". Yikes! Not good for TK! Regardless of the trial period, you still can't fire someone for related reasons to "sexual condition".
 
umit
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri May 29, 2009 10:45 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Tue Oct 21, 2014 10:35 am

Unfortunately , widespread discrimination is part of the daily life in Turkey although people are getting wore and more against to it. (Our prime minister just said on TV something like '' SORRY but they even call me Armenian'' . ) On the other hand , I do not think TK manager in Spain acted deliberately against her . At the end , manager is natural Spanish and she probably knows what would be the consequences of her actions under the law . So better to wait until the court hearings if there would be one . On the other hand discrimination , unfortunately , happens everywhere , watch the football games in EU , try to rent an apartment in some of the NY neighborhood as black person .
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: TK Potentially Discriminates Against Worker In MAD

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:02 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 24):
I'd say "good luck to TK in proving this"

I'd say good luck to the former employee proving this in court.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 28):
am not going to get involved in the sexual side of this debate, but isn't a trial period means exactly that, trial, you can be accepted after that period or not. Unless the person can prove that he was dismissed for the genre operation history and not because that person was proven that he/she is not capable of staying on the job, then he/she has no case here.

This. While I don't agree with the dismissal (if it was indeed because of her gender reassignment), TK is well within its rights during the trial period, to dismiss its employees.

Unless they can find a smoking gun email specifically telling some manager to fire her specifically for the gender reassignment, they are well within their rights to simply say she wasn't a good fit for the company.

Who is online

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos