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sharktail
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Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:13 pm

According to Leeham News, Airbus is launching a long range version of the A321 that will have a range of 3,900 nm

http://leehamnews.com/2014/10/21/exc...lr-long-range-to-replace-757-200w/

Kiran Rao, EVP sales and marketing for Airbus, confirmed the new model today. He said the A321neoLR will have a range of 3,900nm, or about 100nm more than the operational range of the 757W. (Advertised range is 4,100nm.) The additional fuel tanks add 400-500nm to the A321neo’s range, he said.

The A321neoLR will have about 27% lower trip costs and 24% lower per seat costs than the 757, Rao told us. Overall, the LR will be about 25% less costly to operate, he said.

Entry into service is slated for the second half of 2018, about two years after the standard A321neo. Due to technical differences, the standard A321neo won’t be retrofittable into an LR standard, he said.


Interesting. Claims to take advantage of improvements to the GTF slated for 2018 as well.
 
queb
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:16 pm

So now we can officially stop talking for a while about a clean-sheet 757 replacement  
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:25 pm

AS much as Doug Parker loves the A321's , I'd say it's a safe bet

these new jets will find a place in AA's fleet, sending their final 757's

to the desert.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting Sharktail (Thread starter):
Kiran Rao, EVP sales and marketing for Airbus, confirmed the new model today.

I presume they were waiting for first flight of the A320neo with PW GTF so they could launch on the basis of some hard data.

Quoting queb (Reply 1):
So now we can officially stop talking for a while about a clean-sheet 757 replacement

Nope, if anything this will intensify it! 

Well done, Airbus!   

Now, Boeing has something definitive to aim at!  
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:30 pm

Hopefully, this commences the 757 replacement cycle and opens up more point-to-point across the Atlantic.

Brings up the question of why airlines like FI went stayed or went with 737MAX for those edge of the envelope ops.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:32 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 1):
So now we can officially stop talking for a while about a clean-sheet 757 replacement

heheh a clean sheet replacement for 150 frames never made sense. I was always surprised neither A nor B made an effort to address that market when their MAX/NEO platforms were already so close to the goal. I'm glad A took a stab at it (which probably means B will just leave it since the space is too small for 2 players)

Now the question becomes whether this 321neoLR is good enough for short-runway 757 missions such as SNA or ASE.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:35 pm

No doubt this will be hugely attractive to major 757 operators! DL, UA and AA for sure! Especially AA, seeing they are both operating 757s and ordering A321neos.

UA and DL could follow suit. This will certainly put pressure on Boeing to reintroduce an aircraft to that segment, and it will be competitive, especially if it's a clean-sheeter.
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:37 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):

737MAX10!!!! With 2x2 landing gear and a longer fuselage! That's probably not even possible, but it'd look cool nonetheless!
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:39 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
heheh a clean sheet replacement for 150 frames never made sense.

In general, yes, but some have projected it as the "tip of the spear" for the entire 737 replacement family saying that it would make sense to start with the lowest volume seller to work out the kinks in the production line. Personally I feel that makes sense to the techies but I can't imagine the bankers writing checks for a multi-billion dollar investment under that approach.
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hotplane
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:40 pm

How about calling it the A322?
?
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:42 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
Now the question becomes whether this 321neoLR is good enough for short-runway 757 missions such as SNA or ASE.

Speaking of... what routes might the 321neoLR not be able to do that current 757s do?
 
ytz
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:45 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
heheh a clean sheet replacement for 150 frames never made sense.

Except that it's not just for 150 frames. The market in this segment is growing. 321NEO is 21% of NEO orders. 737-9MAX is also 21% of the MAX orderbook.

What's really interesting is to see the where the most orders are for the larger sized aircraft. And that's in all the Asian growth markets. Sooner, rather than later, it's going to make sense to offer an upsized narrowbody fleet. Providing the range just makes the aircraft a mini-787. Imagine what they can do with composite barrels and cfrp wings in this segment.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:47 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 11):

Except that it's not just for 150 frames. The market in this segment is growing. 321NEO is 21% of NEO orders. 737-9MAX is also 21% of the MAX orderbook.

What's really interesting is to see the where the most orders are for the larger sized aircraft. And that's in all the Asian growth markets. Sooner, rather than later, it's going to make sense to offer an upsized narrowbody fleet. Providing the range just makes the aircraft a mini-787. Imagine what they can do with composite barrels and cfrp wings in this segment.

But a cleansheet 757-replacement would also risk overbuilding the frame. Many carriers don't wanna carry the dead weight of a 4200nm frame when most of their missions are 2-4 hours long.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:51 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 4):
Brings up the question of why airlines like FI went stayed or went with 737MAX for those edge of the envelope ops.

I'm willing to bet that today they realized that they made a mistake. I am 100% sure that they will end up going for the A321 NEO LR.... and since this was somewhat foreseeable it's interesting that they didn't go with Airbus to start with. Apparently, they were going to go with Airbus until the last day of negotiation when Boeing made them a better offer.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 5:57 pm

Quoting Sharktail (Thread starter):
The additional fuel tanks add 400-500nm to the A321neo’s range, he said.

Assuming the tanks will eat into cargo / baggage space...will the reduction in space be a concern to airlines that could potentially order this?
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:02 pm

It will be interesting to see how this model sells.

The US flag carriers are replacing significant portions of their domestic 757-200 fleet with the A321-200(neo) and 737-9(00ER). Their international fleet are likely (or will likely become) the youngest / lowest-cycle frames so they should still have life left in them.

British Airways was the only EU flag carrier to operate the 757-200 and they have ended such services. So I wonder if they would buy this new frame, much less carriers like the AF, KL, LH and IB who never operated the type (Condor flies the 757-300).

Within Asia, the Chinese are the ones who operate the 757-200 and I believe those are predominately, if not exclusively, domestic. LCC growth in that area is significant, so perhaps carriers like Lion Air and Air Asia may use this model to launch long-haul services, but I wonder if this market at both the LCC and "full-service" ends would not be better served with a widebody (A330-300R).
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:02 pm

Quoting max999 (Reply 14):
Assuming the tanks will eat into cargo / baggage space...will the reduction in space be a concern to airlines that could potentially order this?

  

That's exactly what I was thinking. I think US/AA 321s have an additional fuel tank already (?). Will the new 321neoLR have the same additional fuel tank, or will there be two additional fuel tanks? If two additional, cargo volume will be dramatically reduced.

Actually, I just read the newsletter from the OP. It indicates three auxiliary fuel tanks. If they're using the same 321 fuselage, where are they going to put those? I don't think it will be a stretched 321, because the targeted pax count is 164.

Hhhmmmm.....



[Edited 2014-10-21 11:05:49]


[Edited 2014-10-21 11:07:11]
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:03 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 5):

Just being nit picky here but I think you mean EGE instead of ASE. ASE is limited to a wingspan somewhere under 100'.

Peace   
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:03 pm

TATL 321. Boy, this must be O'Leary's wet dream . . .
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:04 pm

Quoting queb (Reply 1):
So now we can officially stop talking for a while about a clean-sheet 757 replacement  

AMEN !! at last an ending to the never ending saga of the 757 replacement.

I wonder what the reaction will be at BAC...

Now we have the answer as what will Airbus big R & D workforce will be doing in the coming years A380 NEO and A321LR.

Holy cow.... I bet a lot of people are talink a long hard look at fleet replacements RIGHT NOW....get in line guys! the demand in the A320NEO,CEO and A321 deliverers is going to be "interesting"

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Thomaas
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:04 pm

Well that brings back UA into the A320 game even though they seem to focus on the 737 for their narrow body fleet. They would do wonders for them in EWR and IAD.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:05 pm

Quoting bomber996 (Reply 17):

Just being nit picky here but I think you mean EGE instead of ASE. ASE is limited to a wingspan somewhere under 100'.

Peace

whoops yes. definitely. my bad.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:08 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 20):
Well that brings back UA into the A320 game even though they seem to focus on the 737 for their narrow body fleet. They would do wonders for them in EWR and IAD.

A fleet of 60 or so of these A321LRs would work nicely for UA to replace the P.S. 757s, the TATL 757s, and those pesky 737s on Hawaii flights.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:10 pm

I wonder if one of the structural changes is the removal of a set of exits? A321 can seat 225 in high density..
With just 164 seats, will they eliminate an exit and not have all of that structural weight.
The reduced pax count should also help negate the impact of the lost underbelly space that the aux. fuel tanks take up.
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:10 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 20):

What I think UA should do is convert a good portion of their 737 MAX 9 order to MAX 8s, so that they can replace the 737-700 and A319/20s more directly. They could also perhaps increase that order.

Then they should order the A321neoLR to start with 757 replacements.
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hibtastic
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:18 pm

Wonderful news. I was getting concerned for the thin TATL routes and their survival once the 757 had disappeared. Well done Airbus.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:18 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
much less carriers like the AF, KL, LH and IB who never operated the type (Condor flies the 757-300).

Iberia operated several 757-256 airframes. I count 24.


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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:25 pm

Quoting Sharktail (Thread starter):
Airbus is launching a long range version of the A321 that will have a range of 3,900 nm

Ummm, MSP-HNL 3451nm, or even DTW-HNL 3889nm but htis might be pushing the effective range.

maybe the Upper Midwest will regain non stop service to Hawaii in a few years. Those rights to 9 additional aircraft presumably could be converted from A321neo Standard Range to LR. . . .unless Delta decides to resume at least the semi-historical MSP-HNL non route with its remaining 757's

HONOLULU, March 25, 2013 /PRNewswire/ -- Having reached key labor agreements with its pilot and flight attendant unions on the introduction of new aircraft, Hawaiian Airlines today announced that it has signed a definitive purchase agreement with Airbus to acquire 16 new A321neo aircraft between 2017 and 2020, with rights to purchase an additional nine aircraft.
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:29 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 15):
British Airways was the only EU flag carrier to operate the 757-200 and they have ended such services.

IB
AY
EI

Plenty of large enough fleets at non-flag carriers also.
 
Thomaas
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:30 pm

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 24):
What I think UA should do is convert a good portion of their 737 MAX 9 order to MAX 8s, so that they can replace the 737-700 and A319/20s more directly. They could also perhaps increase that order.

Then they should order the A321neoLR to start with 757 replacements.

That was exactly my thought, UA needs 737 MAX 8 sized airplanes. I can also see them going to the CS300 to replace the A319s as they are lighter and more efficient than the A319 NEO and 737 MAX 7 and will have engine and cockpit commonality with the A320 family from what I understand.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:31 pm

It will be interesting to see what if any modifications Airbus makes to the wing. According to the article, the A321 will be at a projected gross weight of 257,940 pounds. That is a heavy aircraft for a 1,320 sq. ft. wing- even with sharklets.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 11):
And that's in all the Asian growth markets.

Just for clarity are you referring to the larger narrowbody models, or the larger models overall?

UA has ordered 150 739 MAX aircraft, I'm guessing you're referring to the large widebody market.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting Sharktail (Thread starter):
According to Leeham News, Airbus is launching a long range version of the A321 that will have a range of 3,900 nm

Still quite short for MNL-AKL but will do PER, MEL and SYD with ease.

MNL-PER/MEL/SYD/AKL&DU=nm" target="_blank">http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=MNL-PER/MEL/SYD/AKL&DU=nm


Quote:
"We learned three weeks ago Airbus was working on what we will call the A321NEOLR (Long Range); Airbus doesn't yet have a name for it, but began showing the details to airlines a week ago."

The announcement was too recent to have factored in PR's decisions to cancel its A321neo order and drop the B757 lease deal. Still, it may be a blessing in disguise that they could convert their remaining four A321neo options to a more capable variant.   
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:36 pm

Competition is wonderful. Makes you really wonder why B didn't get the ball rolling on a new 737 replacement a good 10 years ago. A keeps kicking them where it hurts.
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:37 pm

Quoting holzmann (Reply 33):
Competition is wonderful. Makes you really wonder why B didn't get the ball rolling on a new 737 replacement a good 10 years ago. A keeps kicking them where it hurts.

They could have done that instead of the B747-8..... That would have been proper prioritization.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:38 pm

This is still not a true 757 replacement given the limited payload and cargo capacity, but it closes the gap yet further. The universe of 757-only missions steadily gets smaller and smaller.

In the short term, Boeing could respond on the low end by certifying aux tanks for the passenger 737-8MAX (which will perform better in such a configuration than the -9). In the longer term it may be one more reason to launch the new narrowbody family for EIS in 2022 or so, after the 777X.

[Edited 2014-10-21 11:38:57]
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:49 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 31):

UA ordered 100 MAX 9s and 50 additional -900ERs.

Scratch what I said awhile ago. They actual should just convert all their MAX 9s to -8s and then order 60 or so A321neoLRs.
Especially since this version of the A321 would be far more efficient than the MAX 9.
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kl911
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:51 pm

I say just pax and baggage, no cargo. It will be point to point TA most of the time, let the freighters or large widebodies carry the freight.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:54 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 35):
In the short term, Boeing could respond on the low end by certifying aux tanks for the passenger 737-8MAX

Airbus has a major advantage here as the aux tanks look like a cargo container, and go in on the tracks like one.
Boeing 737 cargo door is tiny by comparison, and the aux tank will be made of several small tanks.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 6:55 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 26):
Iberia operated several 757-256 airframes. I count 24.

Missed that one.   

So IAG could be a customer.



Quoting EIDL (Reply 28):
AY
EI

Must have been leases as they don't show up on Boeing's O&D page for European customers for the 757 family?
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:02 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 38):
Airbus has a major advantage here as the aux tanks look like a cargo container, and go in on the tracks like one.
Boeing 737 cargo door is tiny by comparison, and the aux tank will be made of several small tanks.

Wouldn't that mean that the A321neoLR would have far more flexibility? Sounds like if required, the tanks could be easily removed from the Airbus whereas the aux tanks on a potential 737 competitor would be hardened in place.
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Rdh3e
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:03 pm

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 32):
Still quite short for MNL-AKL but will do PER, MEL and SYD with ease.
Quoting Stitch (Reply 39):
Must have been leases as they don't show up on Boeing's O&D page for European customers for the 757 family?

EI is currently operating 3 leased 752s it looks like.
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Aer%20Lingus-active-b757.htm

Also looks like AY's were leased from ALFC or some such, apparently some are the same birds between these two:
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Finnair-history-b757.htm
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:14 pm

Quoting EIDL (Reply 28):
IB
AY
EI

Plenty of large enough fleets at non-flag carriers also.

AY has already replaced its leased 757 fleet by an A321ceo with Sharklets fleet. There are some airports where these A321s cannot be used, not due to the range limitations but landing gear load restrictions on landing (A321 has a 2-wheel MLG whereas 757 has a 4-wheel MLG).
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:24 pm

I'd be curious to see what changes will be done to the wing, as well as the MLG. Double bogie gear would look pretty neat on the A321.
 
hotplane
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:26 pm

Those Indian A320s years ago had double bogies, so it can be done.
?
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:27 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 41):
EI is currently operating 3 leased 752s it looks like.
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Aer%20Lingus-active-b757.htm

Also looks like AY's were leased from ALFC or some such, apparently some are the same birds between these two:
http://www.airfleets.net/flottecie/Finnair-history-b757.htm

Indeed, all three of Aer Lingus' 757s are ex-Finnair birds and IIRC are leased from the same company.
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:28 pm

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 35):
In the short term, Boeing could respond on the low end by certifying aux tanks for the passenger 737-8MAX (which will perform better in such a configuration than the -9).

Or a cheap de-rated no frill 787.

Quoting seabosdca (Reply 35):
after the 777X.

That is a concern. Boeing should convert B777x orders to B748i and classic B777 (with deep discounts) and free-up R&D resources to work on future Small Capacity (Ultra) Long Range aircraft.
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:45 pm

Wonder what kind of runway length will be needed for this A321neoLR at MTOW. Surely 8,500 ft - 9,000 ft +.

The 757 can takeoff fully loaded with only 6,500 ft of runway. Still apples and oranges in my book.

Might sound trivial, but a lot of secondary UK/Ireland airports still only have 8,000 ft or so runways. Some even shorter, like LTN, NCL, BRS, EXT, LPL, CWL, LBA or ORK. It might become an issue, especially if the A321neoLR is designed to open up TATL markets from secondary airports such as these. The 757 might still be the only available option for places like these.

Thenoflyzone

[Edited 2014-10-21 12:59:20]
us Air Traffic Controllers have a good record, we haven't left one up there yet !!
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:47 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 40):
Wouldn't that mean that the A321neoLR would have far more flexibility? Sounds like if required, the tanks could be easily removed from the Airbus

Qatar Airways operates two A319LR which were delivered with 6 auxiliary tanks.
5 of these now live in the hangar and the aircraft flies normally with only one. The rest could be fitted overnight if required.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 - Leeham

Tue Oct 21, 2014 7:50 pm

I've been talking about this for a while. US (now part of AA) has been interested in this for a *long* time.

Quoting Sharktail (Thread starter):

According to Leeham News, Airbus is launching a long range version of the A321 that will have a range of 3,900 nm

  

Quoting Sharktail (Thread starter):
The A321neoLR will have about 27% lower trip costs and 24% lower per seat costs than the 757, Rao told us. Overall, the LR will be about 25% less costly to operate, he said.

That is why this will sell. Good for mid-east airlines too.

Quoting queb (Reply 1):

So now we can officially stop talking for a while about a clean-sheet 757 replacement

On a.net? This will only increase the # of threads.

Quoting bobdino (Reply 10):
Speaking of... what routes might the 321neoLR not be able to do that current 757s do?

There will be a half dozen if one excludes shorter flights that should go to the A320NEO or 738MAX.

Quoting thenoflyzone (Reply 47):

Wonder what kind of runway length will be needed for this A321neoLR at MTOW. Surely 8,500 ft - 9,000 ft +.

The 757 can takeoff fully loaded with only 6,500 ft of runway. Still apples and oranges in my book.

Yes. But the 757 will cost 33% more per flight. The fuel and maintenance bills are high on the 757. So unless the short field performance is required... it makes no sense to fly the 757 over the A321NEO.

Runways that are not stretched will lose service.    This will not impact that many routes.

Lightsaber
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