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Revelation
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Fri Oct 24, 2014 6:57 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 97):
This will be the 'no fish' configuration for TATL.

Maybe it should be the "cut bait" configuration?   (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_or_cut_bait )
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:36 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 84):
The cost savings more than pay for the cargo. If you're staying there is a future market for a similar cost per flight airframe with cargo, I agree. But with A330NEOs and 787s replacing smaller cargo volume widebodies, I'm not worried about the market for the A321NEO sans cargo. Its there thanks to the much lower cost per flight. The cargo will drive the case widebody/narrowbody and impact how much frequency.

The point you are all forgetting, we are talking here, especially for Icelandair about thin routes. There is no wide body and/or cargo frame to take the cargo, so the cargo pays premium. The customer can either use a roundabout way, were the cargo takes longer and has to catch connecting flights and/or is trucked between airports.
If I send parts from KEF to SEA and I would not have the direct flight, the parts would go to LGG, trucked to LUX and there catch CV to SEA. It would even come out on a similar price per Kg, but would be far longer on the way.
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting Pacific (Reply 95):
The A321 will lift 25.5t with no ACTs and 24.9t with 1 ACT. With 3 ACTs it will go down to 23.3t (assuming 0.6t per ACT). Adding in the MTOW bump of 3.5t takes it to 26.8t. 170 passengers and crew at an average weight of 100kg = 17t. At 4,200nm, there is room for zero freight. At 3,600nm, you will manage 4t of freight

That R/P chart looks pretty close to the one I've synthesized.

as a point of order, I believe the ACT's weigh a shade over 400 kg.

Rgds
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:43 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 86):
Yes, they chose the aircraft with less performance. They had a choice of the A321NEO and B737-9MAX. If you have to sacrifice cargo then choosing the B737-9MAX will certainly cause you to have to leave more cargo behind than a A321NEO. I don't think anyone is making the case the the B737-9MAX carries more cargo in comparable situations. What I'm saying is that they need all the performance they can get and they chose the aircraft with less of it. Especially now that the A321NEO is being upgraded.

Again, the B737MAX will NOT replace the B757-200 at Icelandair. The B757 will stay on for the routes the B737MAX will not be able to do, if the B737MAX will be used at Icelandair at all.
Icelandair bought 15 B737-800. Never used them, leased them out and slowly sold them.
 
Daysleeper
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:49 pm

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 83):
I doubt I made myself clear in the comment. My point was that this plane needs to have both true TATL west-bound range in the winter AND the ability to carry a decent amount of cargo (i.e. ~4t). If this a/c can demonstrate the range but not be able to carry any meaningful amount of cargo, I think it will severely hurt the business case for this variant.

I see Cargo as

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 101):

Perhaps the obvious answer is that the A321NLR is not suitable for fish based operations. And if a few tons of Cod can offset a 25% operating cost reduction then should this variant garner the interest with the Airlines that it has here there should be plenty of relatively young 757's on the used market.
 
packsonflight
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:55 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 29):
f you have a look at Icelandair they have 183 passengers, of them 22 Saga class, all the bags and 5 t of belly freight in their B757-200W on the way to SEA for example.

You are greatly exaggerating the cargo capability of the 75w. typical "full house" flight to SEA loads 32t of fuel and a 28t. burn off, that leaves space for 600kg of cargo.

typical flight to BOS can only accommodate 3.5t of fish with full house and up to 4.5t with reduced pax load.
 
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crimsonchin
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Fri Oct 24, 2014 7:56 pm

On the A321's wing. I remember earlier this year seeing a diagram from Airbus for folding wings for a NB sized aircraft. Wonder if this might come handy in future
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Fri Oct 24, 2014 8:15 pm

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 105):
You are greatly exaggerating the cargo capability of the 75w. typical "full house" flight to SEA loads 32t of fuel and a 28t. burn off, that leaves space for 600kg of cargo.

typical flight to BOS can only accommodate 3.5t of fish with full house and up to 4.5t with reduced pax load.

I may be exaggerating, and I am not loading the plane, but I have send more than 600 Kg of cargo to SEA on one flight.

[Edited 2014-10-24 13:45:58]
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:27 pm

Quoting packsonflight (Reply 105):
typical "full house" flight to SEA loads 32t of fuel and a 28t. burn off, that leaves space for 600kg of cargo.

Something's fishy about that figure....
 
Daysleeper
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Fri Oct 24, 2014 9:31 pm

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 107):
I may be exaggerating, and I am not loading the plane, but I have send more than 600 Kg of cargo to SEA on one flight.

So after telling everyone here who doesn't have a perfect understanding of shipping fish and the 757's cargo ability to shut up it turns out t you were no more knowledgeable than anyone else.

I mean I have seen some pretty insane discussions on Anet, but using 600KG of Cod as the reason an Airframe designed in the 80's cannot be replaced by one that is at least 25% more efficient is going to take a long, long time to better
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 12:59 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 108):
Quoting Daysleeper (Reply 109):

{Rotfl}

Can we have a Seinfeld fish episode?


Everyone should recall Iceland air has bought -9MAXs. They'll have worse cargo at range than the A321NEOLR...
 
eaa3
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:13 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 110):
Everyone should recall Iceland air has bought -9MAXs. They'll have worse cargo at range than the A321NEOLR...

Exactly, it's not a perfect B757 replacement but it's the only one on offer. It would be strange to operate B737-9MAX and A321NEO LR side by side. Just plain stupid actually.

Boeing is not going to create a whole new aircraft to replace it the B757. Maybe it will be able to do it with the next new B737 replacement but that won't be for a long time. But that means that the A321NEO LR will be the only replacement for a while.

If you want more cargo capacity or something then you'll need a wide-body. The A321NEO LR will however provide you the greatest potential cargo capacity today for a narrow-body. And 25% savings per seat are an incredible opportunity.

The A321NEO LR is the future fleet of Icelandair. Anyone that doesn't see that is blinded by love of Boeing.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:38 am

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 111):
If you want more cargo capacity or something then you'll need a wide-body. The A321NEO LR will however provide you the greatest potential cargo capacity today for a narrow-body. And 25% savings per seat are an incredible opportunity.

   If the cargo premium rises enough, there will be a cargo hull added to the fleet if the demand exceeds the capacity.

The reality is the extreme costs savings of the A321NEO vs. the 757 per flight. No way can cargo pay that cost difference. If cargo were worth that much, then Icelandair will convert an old 757 to a 757BCF and make their money flying that for the cargo (if another frame doesn't meet the needs better).

Icelandair is not the airline I'm thinking of for the A321NEO. I don't know why one airline that has already committed to the MAX is the focus of this discussion. I'm thinking more AA, UA, DL, B6, HA, LH, BA (albeit limited from LHR), the ME3 (well... EY and QR), TK?, and I'm less certain about others, but there will be airlines that find cities to add to their route map via the A321NEOLR.

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 111):
The A321NEO LR is the future fleet of Icelandair. Anyone that doesn't see that is blinded by love of Boeing.

The only reason I disagree is the current MAX order on the books. Without knowing the details of that purchase contract, it could be that Icelandair won't be in a position to buy A321NEOLRs for a bit. I agree this frame is an excellent fit for their system, but contract legalities could be an issue.

Since this is an A321NEOLR thread... I'd rather focus on the more certain growth.   

Lightsaber
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 6:54 am

Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 39):
If you for example send spare parts to Norway with FedEx, UPS and so on, they go all the way to Oslo and are than distributed by the Norwegian Post.

That's not correct. They are distributed with FedEx and UPS vans.. I picked up an international parcel on my doorstep from the local "Doug Heffernan" in his brown van a couple of days ago.
 
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JetBuddy
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 7:14 am

Quoting kl911 (Reply 50):
That doesn't make sense. Boston is at the sea, a sea where you catch fish. Why fly fish from Iceland to Boston? Flowers I understand, but fish is everywhere. Besides, fish is already frozen on the ships, why not ship it frozen to Boston?

You do realize there's a difference between frozen foods and fresh food? Fresh fish is also put in crates of ice, but it's not frozen. The appetite for fresh fish in Boston is higher than what the locals can produce, and Iceland is a very large producer of fish. I can give you an example from my own country (Norway); fresh fish straight from the Norwegian Sea is transported on trucks from Northern Norway down to Oslo, from there they are flown with a 747 to Japan and Korea.. it's all done so fast, the fish is still considered fresh produce when it arrives on the other side of the planet. It's big business. Japan does a lot of fishing as well, but they still can't produce enough to satisfy their demands.

Okay.. pretty big digression there.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 9:23 am

Quoting airbazar (Reply 80):
It desperately needs a larger wing.

We can all dream about a larger wing, I wanna bet it's not going to happen. A321NEOLR will be a low risk upgrade.
 
kurtverbose
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:16 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 115):
We can all dream about a larger wing, I wanna bet it's not going to happen

I wonder what Airbus's longer term strategy for the A320 is? Will they replace the NEO with a new plane in the mid/late 2020's as Boeing probably will with the 737, or will they do what Boeing did with the 737 - continually update it?

If it's the latter, then Airbus will have to bring out an 'NG' which will probably need a new wing, but yes, it will be many years down the line.
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:24 am

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 116):
I wonder what Airbus's longer term strategy for the A320 is? Will they replace the NEO with a new plane in the mid/late 2020's as Boeing probably will with the 737, or will they do what Boeing did with the 737 - continually update it?

The short to mid-term strategy is upgrading the A320neo, see:

http://aviationweek.com/commercial-a...rbus-ponders-neo-plus-upgrade-plan
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...mulls-upgrades-to-a320neo-jet.html

The long term strategy will depend on what kind of aircraft the 737 successor will be. The response might require a new design, or maybe just an upgrade might work just fine as well.
 
StTim
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 10:53 am

The incremental - relatively low cost - approach is also driven by funding issues at Airbus. As is well known the A380 is not generating cash, the A400M went significantly over budget. The A350 whilst looking like a great program has gone over budget (but not disastrously so) but is now entering the most cash exposure phase - the industrial ramp up and cost reduction. How well Airbus does on this will impact how quickly they are actually in a position to invest in another clean sheet design. I suspect it will be 10 plus years.

The incremental programs will keep many engineers in jobs - they do not want to lose too many skilled people - but deliver earlier returns.
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:04 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 117):
The short to mid-term strategy is upgrading the A320neo, see:

" “There is no new neo,”"

 

The A320 NeoNeo. I don't think that works for me.
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:08 am

Quoting kurtverbose (Reply 116):
I wonder what Airbus's longer term strategy for the A320 is?

That one is easy IMO.

They will continually make incremental improvements to the A32X NEO's until such time as Boeing finally "jump" with the New Small Aircraft.
They will then respond in kind.
They have very little need to do anything else.
It would be fun to see them stretch the A320NEO by 6ft or so to match the 737-8MAX's capacity, but I can't see them doing that if they don't need to.

Quoting Pacific (Reply 95):
Here is my attempt at extrapolating the payload-range curve: http://i.imgur.com/euqWyp1.jpg

Just two more observations on the R/P chart..

a) The 27t maximum payload you show will only be possible if Airbus increase the MZFW along with the MTOW.
I suspect they won't, because there's nowhere to put it with 3 x ACT's in the hold.
In which case the A321NEO LR's max payload will actually be less because of the extra weight of the 3 x ACT's

b) The A321NEO with 1 x ACT shown on the Airbus R/P chart you show is fuel limited at c. 3 200Nm (and a payload of c. 22t) at its MTOW of 93.5t
That equates to an average of 153 nm per tonne of fuel.

The A321NEO LR will take off at 97t and thus I'd expect it's "range per tonne" to be about 2% worse than the A321NEO for an MTOW mission.
However, by 2018, the GTF at least is contracted to have improved by 2%.
So let's call it a wash.
Therefore, if 3 x ACT's provides 25.6 tonnes of fuel, the A321 NEO LR should be fuel limited at 153*25.6 Nm - i.e. 3 900Nm.
Not the 4 200Nm shown on your R/P chart.

Happy to be challenged  

Rgds
 
kl911
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:23 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 115):
We can all dream about a larger wing, I wanna bet it's not going to happen. A321NEOLR will be a low risk upgrade.

Same here, a new / modified wing is too complicated/expensive. If at all it will be very minor modification.
 
mjoelnir
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 11:56 am

Quoting JetBuddy (Reply 113):
Quoting mjoelnir (Reply 39):
If you for example send spare parts to Norway with FedEx, UPS and so on, they go all the way to Oslo and are than distributed by the Norwegian Post.

That's not correct. They are distributed with FedEx and UPS vans.. I picked up an international parcel on my doorstep from the local "Doug Heffernan" in his brown van a couple of days ago.

And were do you live in Norway? Oslo area? Try to send with UPS to Tromsö or Hammerfest.
 
Pacific
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 1:45 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 120):
Happy to be challenged

The approach you raise is very interesting. I made a very simplified extrapolation but there's definitely the law of diminishing returns to consider when you burn fuel for the sake of lifting extra fuel. Let's stir the pot even more though and attempt to refine the assumptions!.

If you fill up the ACTs with fuel, you will reduce the usable payload. At reduced payload, you would get an improvement on the nm per tonne. At 3,900nm, you can only lift a payload of 19t. 19t payload-range with 0x ACT is 2,900nm and 1x ACT is 3,350nm

2,900nm/18.6 = 155.9nm/tonne
3,300nm/20.9 = 157.9nm/tonne (I shall put the discrepancy due to reading the charts by eye).

If I take the mid-point and do: 155.9nm * 25.5t = 4,001nm with 3x ACTs!

This is getting increasingly complex and I think my brain is about to implode!

Another random observation, on the technical characteristics document, Airbus lists the typical passenger capacity as 185 passengers. Is Airbus claiming a range of 3,900nm with 185 passengers? If you add the weight of the crew, that will be a payload of just over 19t, which is at the 3,900nm point...

[Edited 2014-10-25 06:47:14]
 
aryonoco
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:16 pm

To counter the point about Icelandair and fish and cod, could I just point out that the A321NEOLR can carry all of Malaysia's yearly consumption of Kangaroo meat in one trip from Sydney! As such, I see great potential in this aircraft! 
 
voodoo
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:25 pm

Quoting frostyj (Reply 2):

I would not fly on a narrowbody for 10 hours.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 112):
Quoting eaa3 (Reply 111):
The A321NEO LR is the future fleet of Icelandair. Anyone that doesn't see that is blinded by love of Boeing.

The only reason I disagree is the current MAX order on the books. Without knowing the details of that purchase contract, it could be that Icelandair won't be in a position to buy A321NEOLRs for a bit. I agree this frame is an excellent fit for their system, but contract legalities could be an issue.

------

Similarly, I think someone in Air Canada may be scratching their head a bit now. Next thing you know, AC Rouge will take the MAXes........
 
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Revelation
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:28 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 117):
The short to mid-term strategy is upgrading the A320neo

Interesting, I hadn't read the following from your av-week link:

Quote:

Airbus denies such a concrete project is in place. “There is no new neo,” one official says. Instead, he stresses that the manufacturer is continuing to look into research and technology initiatives for all its models, and points out that CEO Fabrice Bregier wants the company to follow a strategy of incremental improvement rather than investment in all-new aircraft. He has committed to refrain from launching a new aircraft program in the next 10 years. But that means the current portfolio has to remain competitive.

Add this to Jim McNearny's "no moonshots" comment ( ref: http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...3668895_boeinginvestorconfxml.html ) and you end up with a decade or so of increments. The analyst quoted in my link seemed to imply that NSA would be a 787 derivative and thus not a "moonshot" but I don't buy that at all.

At least all the increments have been interesting ones, and the uncommitted ones (this topic as well as A380NEO) will cause a lot of interesting conversation here on a.net.
 
kurtverbose
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 2:59 pm

Quoting astuteman (Reply 120):

They will continually make incremental improvements to the A32X NEO's until such time as Boeing finally "jump" with the New Small Aircraft.
They will then respond in kind.

Well, this was my point. I'm certain they will respond, but I don't think in kind. I think they'll look at the numbers and how close an open rotor will be at that point and think another incremental improvement to the A320 will allow them to leap frog Boeing a few more years later. You won't be able to re-engine an aircraft with open rotor, it will need to be a new aeroplane.

Anyway, that's why I think a re-wing may be possible at some stage in the future, but it's so far ahead we're all guessing.
 
peterinlisbon
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 3:56 pm

It's quite interesting that it can fly to western China from Berlin as well as places like Dubai and West Africa. It will definitely open up some new routes.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:23 pm

The fish are flying!   

Really great news! So the 320 family is still alive and kicking - but personally, I have mixed feelings. On one hand, you get back to a 707 feeling: TATL by narrowbody. With a much bigger chance of getting a window (or a near-window) seat. On the other hand, the 321NEOLR will be just one example more of these boring narrowbodies U2, FR and AB are serving you three to five times a day at your airport. 


David
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 126):
Add this to Jim McNearny's "no moonshots" comment ( ref: http://seattletimes.com/html/busines...3668895_boeinginvestorconfxml.html ) and you end up with a decade or so of increments.

It would appear that after the A380, 787, and A350, things are going to be a fair bit quieter for a while on the new programme front.

From an engineering continuity viewpoint that would bother me slightly.
But as the 777X shows, "derivative" doesn't have to mean "small project". Brand new CFRP wings etc is a lot of engineering.
There's plenty of scope in the next decade for other big derivative programmes...

Quoting Revelation (Reply 126):
At least all the increments have been interesting ones, and the uncommitted ones (this topic as well as A380NEO) will cause a lot of interesting conversation here on a.net.

That's a fact  
Quoting Pacific (Reply 123):
Is Airbus claiming a range of 3,900nm with 185 passengers? If you add the weight of the crew, that will be a payload of just over 19t, which is at the 3,900nm point...

Sounds about right.
The A321NEO LR is a really niche aircraft IMO, given that anything below 3 500Nm and anything above 19t payload will be A321NEO territory  


Rgds
 
eaa3
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:10 am

Do people think there will be any tweaks to the wings. Perhaps somehow add more surface area. I know that the A321 had some tweaks over the A320.
 
simjim
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:56 am

With all this talk about taking 185 passengers and tons of Icelandic fish, could an alternative for Icelandair be to swap the MAX order for a 767-200 with GEnx engines and CFRP tweaks? (maybe call it 767-8)

1) 767 production is still open.

2) It probably won't be as efficient as an A321NEOLR, but probably could be 20% more efficient than 757; carry more cargo, with less concerns about headwinds and more passenger comfort than A321neo or 737-9.
 
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RyanairGuru
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 8:20 am

Quoting aryonoco (Reply 124):
To counter the point about Icelandair and fish and cod, could I just point out that the A321NEOLR can carry all of Malaysia's yearly consumption of Kangaroo meat in one trip from Sydney! As such, I see great potential in this aircraft

Unfortunately Australia happens to be one of the world's largest exporters of fresh fish ... and most of that goes to Asia. I sure they will be able to top up the cargo when demand for kangaroo steaks and crocodile fillets is low  
 
Flyglobal
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:02 am

At the end each A321 owner will have to decide: do I buy and accept the additional weight and structure for the LR to make My A321 the LR version at any time I need it or not.
Wonder how this plays out. It doesn't mrean that all 3 Tanks have to be installed all the time I guess.

Anyone in the know how much structural weight we talk about for the frame alone to be LR capable?

Regards

Flyglobal
 
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mariner
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:15 am

Quoting astuteman (Reply 130):
The A321NEO LR is a really niche aircraft IMO, given that anything below 3 500Nm and anything above 19t payload will be A321NEO territory

Sure, but - wow. What a niche!

I think it's flat-out weird that talk of one airline and its fish cargo can almost completely derail the potential of the niche.

If it doesn't work for Icelandair, then Icelandair won't buy it, simple as.

Meanwhile, opportunities for the aircraft exist on numerous routes that are people-centric rather than fish-centirc.

It is a passenger aircraft, after all.

mariner

[Edited 2014-10-26 02:18:31]
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:25 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 135):
Sure, but - wow. What a niche!

I don't disagree, my friend.
I think my comments point to the innate quality of the A321 NEO anyway, which already has 90%-95% of the 757's duties covered off anyway.

The LR is the icing on the cake, and presumably will be worth the effort (note it's still not been launched yet..)

And although its weakness is it needs lots of fuel in the hold space to match the 757's ultimate performance, it's strength is that it does so on a platform which is part of a 10 000 strong family, and 3 500 strong derivative (so far)
At the end of the day - it's an A321 with everything that means in terms of commonality of operation and support.

No new wings required....

Rgds
 
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:07 am

I too am flummoxed by the importance some place on a small carrier and even small corner of the market it occupies. So what if FI doesn't buy the thing; we're talking a dozen or so examples at most. Compared that with the multi-hundred orders we've seen from carriers out of Asia, or the hundred or half-hundred orders out of Europe and the US, and the term 'utterly insignificant' is probably an exaggeration.

FI are free to fly the 75W until the wings come off, and hope that when it does Boeing or Airbus will have something up their sleeves that will fit their needs. If not FI will either have to go big, buying an aircraft that is probably too large for their needs, or go small and buy something that won't carry all the passengers and all the fish they hoped for.

Alternatively, FI could just buy the damn thing (A321neoLR that is), and supplement them with a small fleet of well-used Challenger 604s dedicated to the carriage of fish to the furthest away US markets. If the market will pay the price, that is. Otherwise the market will figure it out all by itself; that's what markets tend to do if you leave it alone.
 
Max Q
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 10:47 am

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 86):
The A321NEO will be able to fly the North American routes that the B757 flies today.

No it won't, not with these numbers and especially out of the smaller airports and shorter runways the 757 handles easily today.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 11:46 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 112):
but there will be airlines that find cities to add to their route map via the A321NEOLR.
.

PR and 5J for example might deem it uniquely fitted for their Australian coastal destinations...and these will probably be the only suitable A321LR applications in their networks. The question is, are their new IGW A333s more profitable for them on these routes than a handful of low capacity A321LRs will be, given current loads and the congestion at MNL? Also, PR has the added problem of what to do with their remaining orders and options (not to mention their recent deliveries).


Quoting kl911 (Reply 121):
Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 115):
We can all dream about a larger wing, I wanna bet it's not going to happen. A321NEOLR will be a low risk upgrade.

Same here, a new / modified wing is too complicated/expensive. If at all it will be very minor modification.

What is the potential increase/decrease in number of frames that could be ordered if a new wing were implemented or not, versus the costs associated with design, testing and certification?


Quoting astuteman (Reply 136):
The LR is the icing on the cake, and presumably will be worth the effort (note it's still not been launched yet..)

[.....]

No new wings required....

But certainly desired. Of course, Airbus wouldn't be bothered by the wishes of the financially challenged very small and very few.




[Edited 2014-10-26 05:04:28]
 
astuteman
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 12:44 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 138):
Quoting eaa3 (Reply 86):The A321NEO will be able to fly the North American routes that the B757 flies today.
No it won't, not with these numbers and especially out of the smaller airports and shorter runways the 757 handles easily today.

Or alternatively - yes. It will.
Except for the 2, or is it 1, airports where the difference between a 7 000ft take-off roll and an 8 000ft take off roll actually matters.
If there are any.
Which is the cue to cite examples ...  

I suspect the guys criticising the A321NEO LR's luggage/cargo capacity have a far stronger argument when comparing it to the 757 (whether it's fish or Jamaican Holiday luggage..).

Rgds
 
Pacific
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:27 pm

I'd like to keep talking about the fish too!

How many passengers' bags can a LD3-45W carry? How many tonnes of freight does a LD3-45W carry? Or how many tonnes of fish?  Once we get to know more about A321's cargo hold volume (7x LD3-45W with 3x ACTs), we can start making educated comparisions with the 757.
 
evomutant
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 1:49 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 138):
No it won't, not with these numbers and especially out of the smaller airports and shorter runways the 757 handles easily today.

So BRS won't get it's EWR service back. Hard luck for them, though I doubt a major impedident to any airline considering the aircraft.

Where else were you thinking?
 
B777LRF
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:03 pm

An AKH (LD3-45) container holds around 30-40 bags or 600 kg of freight, give or take. Consensus seems to be that the LR will be have 2-3 open positions after the bags and ACTs have been loaded. But that's only volume, it has no bearing on whether or not there will be any available payload after pax and bags are onboard.
 
Tristarsteve
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:13 pm

Quoting Pacific (Reply 141):
How many passengers' bags can a LD3-45W carry? How many tonnes of freight does a LD3-45W carry?

We use AKH containers. The max gross weight is 1134kg and the tare (empty) weight is 84kg.
So theoretically you can have 1050kg in each container
The max load per position in the aircraft is 1150kg.
Each container takes between 30 and 40 bags depending on bag size.
There is also an open u shaped pallet available for freight, but we don't use it.
 
eaa3
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 2:41 pm

I wonder whether this aircraft will be one that Air Astana is waiting for. After all didn't the CEO of Air Astana say that Boeing was thinking of building a new 757.
 
nry
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 3:54 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 76):
I find it interesting that some people take marketing BS far too seriously!

Both manufacturers build planes that serve both hub-to-hub and point-to-point markets. Not to mention hub-to-point. Airbus and Boeing have slightly different views of the market, but both are in the business of building and selling planes.

No. This isn't marketing - this is a product portfolio strategy. For every p2p TATL A320neoLR sold, there is incrementally less need for an A380 (or A380neo for that matter) to fly from AMS, LHR, MUC or FRA.

It's not what you say, but what you do.

Actually what this may be doing is acknowledging that any A380neo is strictly for EK - but then we already knew that.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 5:16 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 115):
We can all dream about a larger wing, I wanna bet it's not going to happen. A321NEOLR will be a low risk upgrade.

For multiple reasons, the A321NEOLR needs more wing. But I agree... it is unlikely to happen.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 139):
PR and 5J for example might deem it uniquely fitted for their Australian coastal destinations...and these will probably be the only suitable A321LR applications in their networks. The question is, are their new IGW A333s more profitable for them on these routes than a handful of low capacity A321LRs will be, given current loads and the congestion at MNL?

You raise a good question. A333IGW or A339s will fill some of the routes. I think more in system additions than individual routes. Small airlines will have tougher choices.

Lightsaber
 
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speedygonzales
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:22 pm

Could one of the non-retrofitabble changes be a different exit config to save a bit OEW, e.g. two doors plus two overwing hatches liming it to 189 seats?
 
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Revelation
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RE: Airbus Launches A321NEOLR To Replace 757 Part 2

Sun Oct 26, 2014 6:23 pm

Quoting nry (Reply 146):
For every p2p TATL A320neoLR sold, there is incrementally less need for an A380 (or A380neo for that matter) to fly from AMS, LHR, MUC or FRA.

Yes, but just think how many fish you could fit into an A380!

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