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KarelXWB
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Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:43 am

The Air France-KLM freight division is still not doing well. Q3 results as follows:

- Loss of 102 million euros (versus 84 million for the same period in 2013)
- Turnover down by 9.4%
- Freight capacity was reduced by 5.6%
- Freight payload down by 6.6%
- Load factor down by 0.6%; average load factor 59.8%

Market demand is still weak. The current fleet of 14 aircraft will be reduced to 3x 744F and 2x 77F in 2016, all MD-11F aircraft will leave the fleet. The plan is to break-even in 2017.

Source
http://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuw...france-klm-blijft-diep-in-het-rood
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
Flyingsottsman
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:03 pm

Is this a case of AF pulling KLM down? And how many pure freighters does AF have compared to KLM?
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:13 pm

I know very little about freight but those loads seem pretty weak, no?
 
TYCOON
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:16 pm

Air France has only 4 dedicated cargo aircraft: 2 B747 and 2 B777
KLM (including Martinair) has 13 dedicated cargo aircraft: 7 B747s and 6 MD11s
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:17 pm

The MD11s and most 747s will leave the fleet.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:13 pm

AFKL freight also markets the bellies of both AF and KL flights and pays a lumpsum for the capacity (LH has a similar arrangemen) .

That explains also the low load factor. usually, pure freighters fly at capacity or with a LF of pover 80%.

Now, AFKL could retire all main deck capacity and still would lose money because of that arrangment. I could imagine that operating the 2 AF 777F is not a profitable operation , however what flies under durch registry rather is. Meaning that by retiring all freighters the loss would rather increase.

OTH the loss is virtual, except may be a small amount, as the lumpsum payment shows as a gain on AF and KL.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:51 pm

As was previously announced, AFKL is virtually getting out of the freighter business with plans to park Martinair MD-11 fleet after large Q2 loss.

AF-KL To Ground Martinair MD-11 Fleet (by mercure1 Sep 4 2014 in Civil Aviation)

Fleet to be left is...

2 x 777F based at CDG
3 x 744F based at AMS.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
Amsterdam
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:06 pm

AFKL managed to destroy Martinair Cargo, and lose CityJet and all their London City routes and capacity.
This management has really outperformed itself the last couple of years.
With no vision whatsoever. Its almost an achievement.
 
TYCOON
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:14 pm

Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 7):
Quoting Amsterdam (Reply 7):
AFKL managed to destroy Martinair Cargo, and lose CityJet and all their London City routes and capacity.
This management has really outperformed itself the last couple of years.
With no vision whatsoever. Its almost an achievement.

What??
AFKL didn't "lose" anything... it sold Cityjet. They still have all the routes and capacity via codeshare with Cityjet. I can buy an AF or KL flight to LCY from ORY or AMS or DUB or ANR or RTM for that matter....
 
Transportatorul
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:37 pm

Basically no miracle. For starters AFKL does only fly express shipments on bellies within Europe and the rest is trucked to CDG and AMS...loads of fun if you ship out from WAW, OTP etc...
Sending smaller consignments of 200kg costs basically same on LH and AF/KL, however transit varies from 2 days on LH. Might be up to a week on AF, therefore they have quite a weak standing on everything which is east of VIE.

Not quite sure what is the logical of having each day of tons of belly space empty which are anyway more or less for free.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:39 am

The freight section is pulled over the table by the passenger section. They should not pay for space they cannot market.

European belly space is difficult to market because the big integrators offer either excellent air services and sometimes equally good road services while European trucking offered by road haulers is competetive as well. Meaning that belly space remains for local in connecting express remains the only feasible product that can be sold.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
76er
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:53 am

Here's an interesting commentary about what the dutch cargo community thinks about the freighter phaseout plans:

http://www.cargoforwarder.eu/2014/10...handling-of-martinair-integration/

It is also interesting to note that for the first nine months of this year cargo tonnage at AMS is actually up by 8.1%, total full freighter movements by 7.1%. AMS is presently the fastest growing cargo airport amongst the larger western European hubs. The KL group is losing market share in a hurry.

[Edited 2014-10-30 03:01:14]
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:12 am

Full sympathies with the AMS and Dutch cargo community. The freight forwarders are the ones who control the market and AMS itself will retain it's position, with or without KLM freighters. MD11 flights by LH (and/or 777F) will be seen and the ME3 will gobble up a lot. Cargolux will like it as well.

It is amazing that the top brass of AFKL Cargo has lost contact to the freight forwarding community. That was different in the past and I am not going back 4 decades when jonge Matjes and oude Genever were flown to each KL station to keep up the good spirit. The pilots are roght, there should be at least 6 744 full freighters to boost/maintain main deck capacity. There's enough material resting in the deserts.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
anstar
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:02 am

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 8):
AFKL didn't "lose" anything... it sold Cityjet. They still have all the routes and capacity via codeshare with Cityjet. I can buy an AF or KL flight to LCY from ORY or AMS or DUB or ANR or RTM for that matter....

Unfortunately if you want the KL or AF codes the ticket prices are much more expensive than just buying the WX coded same flights.
 
TYCOON
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:20 am

Quoting anstar (Reply 13):

Agree, very true. But that is often the case: booking IB or BA tickets on a Vueling flight are more expensive than booking directly with Vueling, but BA and IB are able to offer the flight to their customers... which is my point.
 
BA0197
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:52 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
Load factor down by 0.6%; average load factor 59.8%

That performance is abysmal. Nothing more needs to be said. How much that was influenced by the strikes I do not know, but that single factor alone is why AF (and KL) are in the red.
 
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GCT64
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:10 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Thread starter):
- Load factor down by 0.6%; average load factor 59.8%

CAPA recently reported that "[globally] freight load factor for the first eight months of 2014 of 45.0%" as they described it "pitiful trend of freight capacity utilisation by the world's airlines."
http://centreforaviation.com/analysi...its-structural-overcapacity-192139

CAPA were counting belly capacity as well as main deck, and it appears that AFKL do to:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
AFKL freight also markets the bellies of both AF and KL flights and pays a lumpsum for the capacity

Not that I am defending AFKL's performance, but their cargo LF might actually be quite good compared with the rest of the world.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:24 pm

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 16):
Not that I am defending AFKL's performance, but their cargo LF might actually be quite good compared with the rest of the world.

If you care to read the rest of my post#5 that is exactly what I said.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
76er
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:49 pm

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 15):
That performance is abysmal

Remember that cargo doesn't buy a roundtrip ticket.
On many routes there is an enormous difference between inbound and outbound cargo and that's why comparing pax and cargo LF is like apples and oranges. It is not uncommon for a 74F to fly completely empty from e.g. Dubai to Hong Kong and be loaded to the gills on the way back.
 
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GCT64
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:50 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
If you care to read the rest of my post#5 that is exactly what I said.

You indeed did, and I read it, but others didn't read your explanation:

Quoting BA0197 (Reply 15):

That performance is abysmal.
Flown in: A20N,A21N,A30B,A306,A310,A319,A320,A321,A332,A333,A343,A346,A359,A388,BA11,BU31,(..56 more types..),VC10,WESX
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:53 pm

Whether their load factors are good or not, the cargo division is losing lots of money. We're talking about -102 million for just one quarter.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:53 pm

One of the group's 747 has just ended its career there, per Skyliner:


Boeing 747-406ERF.....35233.....1382.....PH-CKD.....Martinair.....KLM Cargo cs, last svc 30ct14 NBO-AMS, to be ferried 02nov14 to CGK, for AirBridgeCargo
 
lpdal
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:09 pm

They need to drop the cargo division. Time and time again, it has been proven that it is just cheaper to carry cargo in the belly of the aircraft rather than own seperate cargoliners.

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
76er
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:22 pm

That is more or less the plan. In 2016 AFKL will have just 2 T7F, 3 ERFs and a single BCF.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:35 pm

It may be cheaper to carry freight in the bellies, but when you have to buy the bellies from the pax division en bloc, including those on European services whch can hardly be filled, you are going to lose money with or without freighters.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
76er
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Sun Nov 02, 2014 3:26 pm

This is true indeed. AFKL cargo chief Varwijk has called a large percentage of losses suffered "artificial" for exactly that reason.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Air France-KLM Freight Goes Deeper In Red

Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:10 pm

...and the emphasis is on "artifical". the loss at the cargo division is a gain at the passenger division. using that excuse for abandoning main deck freight capacity is hard to understand and could lead to the conclusion that some people in management do not understand hat they are doing.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!

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