Jerseyguy
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DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:36 pm

Paulding county airport officals wrote to the US DOT claiming that Delta used "unfair and deceptive practices" to block development of Paulding County/Silver Comet Field. A little background for those who haven't followed the story, Paulding County NIMBYs are trying to block commerical service (likely to be G4) in to the airport located in the NW surburbs of Atlanta. The NIMBY's have filed a lawsuit to block this after recieving an anonoymous phone call for someone who pay for the lawsuit. This lawyer used is the same lawyer used by Delta to sue the City of Dallas, TX into letting them stay at DAL. So not surprisingly Paulding Co Airport officals are pretty sure that Delta is the anonoymous source of payment and requested an investagation from the DOT

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...elta-airport-idUSKBN0IH2G520141028
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beeweel15
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 4:44 pm

Typical Delta Airlines tactics. Anything to prevent competition and force out carriers and destruction of aviation history Delta is front and center.
 
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mayor
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:12 pm

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 1):

Typical Delta Airlines tactics. Anything to prevent competition and force out carriers and destruction of aviation history Delta is front and center.

Care to elaborate, even if it is B.S.?
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aa777lvr
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:13 pm

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 1):
Typical Delta Airlines tactics. Anything to prevent competition and force out carriers and destruction of aviation history Delta is front and center.

Huh?

I'm sure we could have an entire thread on airlines putting the squeeze on competitors. Let's look at AA (as an example). Merge with AirCal and then eliminate most west coast operations. Merge with QQ about a decade later.....mostly ditto on the result of that merger.....(how's that SJC hub doing these days?). AA buying the assets of TW. How is that STL hub doing these days?... (along with the pre-merger employees/planes/maintenance bases...MCI?). It seems to be doing well now......for WN. Remember the 50-seat reconfigured F100's out of DAL to compete against Legend (until Legend went under). Of course, AA operated them until shortly after 9/11/01 - which gave them an "out" to configure them back to a standard seating config with the rest of the fleet. Speaking of DOJ concerns, remember Crandall's recorded phone call with Howard Putnam at BN? That landed on the DOJ's radar.

Let's not cast stones about who is front and center of "preventing competition" in the US airline business or the "destruction of aviation history".

-AA777LVR
 
ridgid727
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:55 pm

In all reality, another Atlanta area airport would benefit the traveling public. I could see other operators do well there, as an alternative to the antfarm over at ATL.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 5:56 pm

If true, I would expect nothing less from Delta. Very disappointing to see some parties resist having the marketplace determine if a 2nd Atlanta airport is the right thing.
 
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cjg225
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:20 pm

Who the heck is going to use this place, anyway?

It's convenient to... pretty much no one.

A comment I saw in the Yahoo! posting of this article made a good point. If it's G4, how is it really going to serve the Atlanta market? G4 will offer a few flights per week to central/southern Florida and Vegas, maybe to a few northern destinations, but that's about it. No legitimate competition for high-volume, critical lanes for Atlanta. Maybe another ULCC would have some flights, but not much to actually affect the market.
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:23 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 5):

If true, I would expect nothing less from Delta. Very disappointing to see some parties resist having the marketplace determine if a 2nd Atlanta airport is the right thing.

What you know of Delta, you could put in a thimble and have room left over for a watermelon. But, I guess I should expect no less.

In this case, they didn't use the marketplace, but the polls, where three of the pro-2nd airport commissioners were voted out and replaced. The PEOPLE that live in the area, that don't want the airport, voted them out.
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Jerseyguy
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:37 pm

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 6):
Who the heck is going to use this place, anyway?

It's convenient to... pretty much no one.

A comment I saw in the Yahoo! posting of this article made a good point. If it's G4, how is it really going to serve the Atlanta market? G4 will offer a few flights per week to central/southern Florida and Vegas, maybe to a few northern destinations, but that's about it. No legitimate competition for high-volume, critical lanes for Atlanta. Maybe another ULCC would have some flights, but not much to actually affect the market.

Well if no-ones going to use it and its not really competition then DL should let it fail on its own. It may not be more convenient perhaps for anyone (I don't know the ATL area) but if the fares are right then people will use it.

Quoting mayor (Reply 7):
In this case, they didn't use the marketplace, but the polls, where three of the pro-2nd airport commissioners were voted out and replaced. The PEOPLE that live in the area, that don't want the airport, voted them out.


While its true that pro-airport commissioners were voted out, it was hardly a mandate of the people. According to this article only 14% of registered voters actually voted. So it was more an apathetic win then a mandate of any kind. If the people of Paulding County were truly against it they would have come out in large numbers to defeat the commissioners.

http://neighbornewspapers.com/view/f...eats-on-Paulding-County-Commission

[Edited 2014-10-29 11:38:50]
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 6:56 pm

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 8):
Well if no-ones going to use it and its not really competition then DL should let it fail on its own. It may not be more convenient perhaps for anyone (I don't know the ATL area) but if the fares are right then people will use it.

And in the meantime, while it is failing, the taxpayers have paid for something that isn't going to be used. Smart, very smart.  
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:25 pm

Usually airports get built by politicians who have friends who are property owners who want to increase the value of their land holdings. From all I have read this was the case in Paulding, and the voters saw through this and voted those commissioners out of office.

I think most would agree that the Peotone airport proposition in the Chicago area has a similar basis.
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:20 pm

This airport is a terrible option for another commercial airport for Atlanta. It has zero access from the interstate system. The western suburbs have the lowest population so it would be convenient for very little of the metro area. About the only existing airport that makes any sense for commercial traffic is Brisco Field in Gwinnett Co. That battle has already been fought though.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:34 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 10):
And in the meantime, while it is failing, the taxpayers have paid for something that isn't going to be used. Smart, very smart.

I'm sure that Delta is worried about the taxpayers of Paulding County and to some extent the Federal Taxpayer . What Delta is worried about is the fact that it might have a chance to be successful. I think you'd be surprised how far people will go to save money.

Quoting Coronado (Reply 12):
From all I have read this was the case in Paulding, and the voters saw through this and voted those commissioners out of office.

By voters I'll assume you mean the 232 voters (or 1.3% of registered voters in Precinct 2) that voted for Patti Smith? or the 1171 voters (6.2% of registered voters in P3) that voted for Vernon Collett. This was a very LOW turnout election which shows that the people were not passionate one way or the other on the issues.

Quoting Dalmd88 (Reply 13):
This airport is a terrible option for another commercial airport for Atlanta. It has zero access from the interstate system. The western suburbs have the lowest population so it would be convenient for very little of the metro area. About the only existing airport that makes any sense for commercial traffic is Brisco Field in Gwinnett Co. That battle has already been fought though.

While yes, a closer option like Brisco would have been better, that battle was lost, no doubt in part due to Delta's opposition. Also I don't think its about convenience as it is about lower costs and lower fares, so I don't think you can necessarily limit it to the Western suburbs either.
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:33 pm

I don't doubt that DL could be behind this, BUT I could see UA doing the same thing at Teterboro or one of its other hubs. Was UA behind blocking commercial service from Centennial Airport? Perhaps... So, it is anti-competitive, but I don't think that type of behavior is in any way unique to Delta.
 
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting aa777lvr (Reply 3):
how's that SJC hub doing these days?)

Don't remind me.
SJC/CLD
 
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:52 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 10):
And in the meantime, while it is failing, the taxpayers have paid for something that isn't going to be used. Smart, very smart.  

I totally agree with your comment the taxpayers would be the ones stuck footing the bill for an airport that is not needed. It's no different than the Chicago's proposed Peotone Airport and Gary International Airport. Gary is closer to Chicago and is already built Peotone is a corn field that no one wants why waste taxpayers money building something that is not needed and not going to be used. They should be thanking DL if they were involved in blocking this project.
 
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:40 am

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 14):
I'm sure that Delta is worried about the taxpayers of Paulding County and to some extent the Federal Taxpayer . What Delta is worried about is the fact that it might have a chance to be successful. I think you'd be surprised how far people will go to save money.

This is one of those "means to an end" situations. What Delta is worried about is irrelevant in the face of the very valid point that this would probably be a huge waste of taxpayer money.
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ridgid727
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:52 am

Quoting aa777lvr (Reply 3):
.....(how's that SJC hub doing these days?).

Out of curiosity, where is Song? and Delta Express these days? and how is the Delta owned Comair doing these days? and that mega DL hub at DFW?

[Edited 2014-10-29 18:06:31]
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:56 am

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 19):
What Delta is worried about is irrelevant

In a thread about a DOT inquiry about Delta and their problems with the airport? G4 thinks this can work, we've seen what F9 has done in Trenton and I also contend that people will travel from not just the Western Suburbs of Atlanta but the eastern suburbs of both Atlanta and Birmingham for a cheap flight.
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:56 am

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 14):

I'm sure that Delta is worried about the taxpayers of Paulding County and to some extent the Federal Taxpayer . What Delta is worried about is the fact that it might have a chance to be successful. I think you'd be surprised how far people will go to save money.

I never claimed otherwise. The fact is that an airport that is not needed is a huge waste of the taxpayers' money, regardless of what DL's reasons are.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 19):
This is one of those "means to an end" situations. What Delta is worried about is irrelevant in the face of the very valid point that this would probably be a huge waste of taxpayer money.

Thank you
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Jerseyguy
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:28 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 22):
The fact is that an airport that is not needed is a huge waste of the taxpayers' money, regardless of what DL's reasons are.

So a top 10 metro area doesn't need more than 1 airport?? Also note that the other 9 in the TOP 10 have more than 1 airport. ATL is also top 10 for delays too.
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ThomasMTroxell
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:34 am

I'm not a Paulding County resident so I'm not going to comment on their Commissioners or the vote that took place. However I am a Gwinnett County resident and I remember the plan from the same company to make LZU a commercial airport. I'm biased towards ATL and DL as an employee of the company, but I think this whole second airport business is completely unnecessary.

Silver Comet Field (KPUJ) is so far from the population center of Atlanta. It's located off of US-278, but the nearest interstate is about 20 miles away. It has no connection to any form of transit, it isn't in a convenient location for most people (halfway between Rockmart and Dallas), and at most would probably be served by one or two airlines. ATL is much better on all of those fronts with its connection to MARTA and other public transit, private bus system (Greyhound), numerous interstate links, a wide variety of airlines and destinations, and it is relatively in the center of the region.

Why should Paulding spend money to upgrade an airport that will probably see charter-like service from G4 or another airline? Wouldn't those airlines be better accommodated at ATL? There isn't a lack of gate space (especially since the WN/FL merger - We aren't slot restricted), the fees are not very high (City may even waive the fees for a new entrant), and wouldn't the location of ATL over Silver Comet provide carriers like G4 higher load factors? I'd think that the carriers interested in serving ATL would want to come to ATL where there are significantly more passengers and where it is much easier for everyone to get to, over an airport far outside of town. If a carrier like G4 thinks they can lower prices to stimulate demand or convince people on the west side to use Silver Comet, wouldn't DL match those fares? (Look at their new Basic-Y fares). At that point, what is the benefit of using Silver Comet over ATL? You've limited yourself to the west side, you aren't that much cheaper than the legacies, and you are in a location that is hard to get to.

If Paulding wants to spend the money on upgrading their airport for commercial service that's fine, but IMHO I think the city is best served from ATL.

[Edited 2014-10-29 18:42:05]

[Edited 2014-10-29 18:45:03]
CRJ CR7 CR9 E45 E70 E90 DC9 MD80 MD88 MD90 717 733 734 735 73W 738 739ER 744 752 753 763 76W 764 77E 77L 77W A319 A320 A321 A343 US HP DL FL WN LH AC BA AB UA TW
 
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:50 am

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 23):
So a top 10 metro area doesn't need more than 1 airport?? Also note that the other 9 in the TOP 10 have more than 1 airport. ATL is also top 10 for delays too.

Why? I imagine that ORD is in the top 10 for delays, also and there's a 2nd airport at MDW. How does SFO do as far as delays? That area has OAK and SJC nearby. The point I'm making is that having multiple airports doesn't necessarily reduce delays.

The second question is this.....WHY is a second, commercial airport necessary? Every city that has multiple airports in their metro areas has had those multiple airports for years and years and things don't seem to have changed any, for better or worse.

It looks to me as though the proponents of this second airport either have land to sell or some other reason to make money off of it that has nothing to do with passenger convenience, lower fares, etc. Much like the "Peotone" idea in Illinois.
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deltal1011man
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:55 am

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 20):

So a top 10 metro area doesn't need more than 1 airport?? Also note that the other 9 in the TOP 10 have more than 1 airport. ATL is also top 10 for delays too.

two things, no ATL doesn't need an extra airport. Plenty of room for growth, adding an extra airport just because everyone else does it might be the stupidest reason i have heard.
second, can you show the stats that says ATL is top 10 in delays. The few google searches don't show that at all.
 
Jerseyguy
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:27 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 22):
Why? I imagine that ORD is in the top 10 for delays, also and there's a 2nd airport at MDW. How does SFO do as far as delays? That area has OAK and SJC nearby. The point I'm making is that having multiple airports doesn't necessarily reduce delays.

Never said that flights at Silver Comet will reduce delays at ATL, I just mean that passengers may want to fly from an airport that is less hectic and has fewer delays.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 23):
second, can you show the stats that says ATL is top 10 in delays. The few google searches don't show that at all.

I found it in an article but RITA stats say its #12 in delays which isn't that great either

If this is such a horrible unnecessary idea and will never work I ask the same question the Wall Street Journal did back in December of last year "Why Is Delta Afraid of This Tiny Airport?"
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mayor
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:48 am

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 24):

If this is such a horrible unnecessary idea and will never work I ask the same question the Wall Street Journal did back in December of last year "Why Is Delta Afraid of This Tiny Airport?"

Well, lets start by saying that DL might not want this airport for the same reasons that some of us think it will be a bad idea. DL might not want to have to compete with them at the same airport, thereby making a split operation necessary. They may think they'd have to have a presence there, just as a matter of course.


I would like to ask the question......"Why does anyone want this tiny airport?"
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Jerseyguy
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:24 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 25):
DL might not want to have to compete with them at the same airport, thereby making a split operation necessary. They may think they'd have to have a presence there, just as a matter of course.

If its so inconvenient couldn't Delta make a more attractive deal by just matching their prices from ATL?? No split presence necessary then. Plus even if that is the case then why hide paying for the NIMBYs lawyers if there is nothing wrong/illegal about doing so.

Quoting mayor (Reply 25):
I would like to ask the question......"Why does anyone want this tiny airport?"

Off the top of my head, a few reasons
1. some people like the Cheaper flights that G4 can provide (partially due to the less expense of the smaller airport).
2. some people like a smaller airport that is less chotic and easier to get from the car to the gate.
3. some people like FREE or very low cost parking (under $3 a day)
4. some people like airports where the delays are less and there is very little chance that you will sit on the plane waiting for a gate,
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:50 am

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 16):
very valid point that this would probably be a huge waste of taxpayer money.

There is no basis for this statement. Isn't airfield already a waste of taxpayers money? Wouldn't it be better to see if some commercial traffic might improve or at least reduce the drain this airfield presents? Honestly if it is a waste to try this it is probably a waste overall and should be shut down. CLD is a small airfield in San Diego county but it is able to survive if not prosper due to its proximity to other airports. But it is a valued airport to those that use it.

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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:30 am

DL has really been bothering me with their tactics recently. They've had this monopoly power to manipulate the market for quite some time. With all of these mergers, these big 3 airlines-AA, DL, and UA- are only going to get worse and worse.
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:23 am

Which airport did United or CO. ?? Want to use ? Why didn't they start service it was a few years ago from one of the hubs ?? Sorry I can't remember the airport
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:19 am

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 24):

If this is such a horrible unnecessary idea and will never work I ask the same question the Wall Street Journal did back in December of last year "Why Is Delta Afraid of This Tiny Airport?"

I didn't say it wouldn't work. I said its stupid to add another airport just cause LA has 46 airports and NYC has 16.

ATL has room to grow, so adding another airport at this point is doing it just for the sake of doing it. Hurting the largest employer in the State just cause is not a way to win votes.

When ATL really starts running out of room then I think a 2nd airport needs to be looked at, but now is not that time.



and when that time comes the 2nd airport shouldn't be out in the middle of no where and useless to most people. Building Atlanta's own PIE is even more stupid than building a second airport.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 24):

Never said that flights at Silver Comet will reduce delays at ATL, I just mean that passengers may want to fly from an airport that is less hectic and has fewer delays.

we all want that. I want Delta to land a 747 in my back yard and carry me where ever I want to go. The "I wanna" crowd is one of the reason this counties air system is so jacked up in the first place. Atlanta and Georgia have been very smart about maximizing ATL before building a 2nd airport. Being fiscally smart is not a bad thing.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 27):
There is no basis for this statement. Isn't airfield already a waste of taxpayers money?

and empty airport that has TSA and all the stuff that goes with it for a hand full of flights when you have a huge airport (economies of scale) down the road that has plenty of space is a waste of tax money.
 
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:00 pm

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 26):
1. some people like the Cheaper flights that G4 can provide (partially due to the less expense of the smaller airport).

G4 likely would not work for the ATL market, especially out of Paudling County. Most of their market would be to Las Vegas and to Florida--as it happens their East Coast Network is almost exclusively routes to Florida. By the time you've spent the time to get to that particular airport from most of the Atlanta area you could be halfway to the Florida state line. Most of Florida is less than a day's drive for Georgians, and Allegiant's model isn't going to be cost-effective for these passengers. Going beyond that, why on earth would you build an airport for five or six weekly flights??
 
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:53 pm

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 20):
ATL is also top 10 for delays too.
Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 23):
second, can you show the stats that says ATL is top 10 in delays.

According to the Department of Transportation Air Travel Consumer Report for October, 2014 (data from August), at 85.0% On-Time Departures, Atlanta Harstfield Jackson International Airport ranks #14 of the 29 reportable airports for on-time performance, 2.5 percentage points above the total for all 29 airports.

The two worst airports on the list are Chicago's O'Hare and the city's second airport, Midway.

Reversing the stats, ATL ranks #16 of 29 for worst on-time performance, not in the top ten.

Granted, this is a one month snapshot only.
 
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:10 pm

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 30):
ATL has room to grow,

You can add more gates, but there's no good way to add any additional runways. The sixth runway is a pipe dream that will never happen.

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 30):
When ATL really starts running out of room then I think a 2nd airport needs to be looked at, but now is not that time.

By that time, it will be too late. It will take a good decade to build a decent airport and jump through all of the legal challenges.

The "good news" is that air travel through ATL is likely to slow (or even decline) as WN declines and DL jacks up fares and causes demand to flounder. So, as long as the people want high fares and declining service, ATL should serve them well.
 
DXBDFWHGA
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:22 pm

Metro Atlanta does not need another airport or runway. It needs more freeways that can connect Delkalb, Gwinnett, North Fulton and Cobb. Atlanta has the worst freeway system in the country.
 
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coronado
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:43 pm

Let's revisit the physical number of flight operations at ATL a year from now. With Air Tran gone and WN's new schedule WN will apparently be operating at least 100 less flights per day than at the peak for AirTran. As Delta cuts its 50 pax fleet down to 125 aircraft, their target IIRC by the end of 2015, Delta's daily operations will probably be down 200 or more flights per day from peak, as they substitute 2 larger 76 pax RJ's for every 3 50 pax RJ . Larger gauge aircraft such as A321's 737-900ER that will take care of growth without increasing frequencies. So ATL is already in the bottom half of the list in so far as being congested, and will be getting less, not more, congested over the coming 2-3 years. I don't see the pressing need for a reliever airport. If there is a business case to be made for G4 to operate 5 flights a week to Orlando (and that is a very weak one for the leisure traveller from metro ATL who can get to ORL in an easy day's drive with their own car without having to rent one), why is nobody mentioning Macon as becoming ''ATL South''. Just one hour away with developed roads. I just think that certain speculator owners of land around Paulding are trying to get tax payers on the hook to increase the value of that land.
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
hohd
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:54 pm

If very few will use it and it is too far from ATL, then why is DL worried. Any service to that airport would fail. I think DL is secretly worried that enough passengers would use it when the price is right and they may have to slash fares to keep people defecting. And as far access, once the airport is established, proper access roads will be built. One always need to ensure that all parts of the city/county are developing.
 
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cjg225
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:05 pm

Quoting ThomasMTroxell (Reply 21):
Silver Comet Field (KPUJ) is so far from the population center of Atlanta. It's located off of US-278, but the nearest interstate is about 20 miles away. It has no connection to any form of transit, it isn't in a convenient location for most people (halfway between Rockmart and Dallas), and at most would probably be served by one or two airlines. ATL is much better on all of those fronts with its connection to MARTA and other public transit, private bus system (Greyhound), numerous interstate links, a wide variety of airlines and destinations, and it is relatively in the center of the region.

Completely agreed. This is one of the biggest reasons why it wouldn't be very workable. It's just so far away from the city and the major suburbs.

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 18):
In a thread about a DOT inquiry about Delta and their problems with the airport? G4 thinks this can work, we've seen what F9 has done in Trenton and I also contend that people will travel from not just the Western Suburbs of Atlanta but the eastern suburbs of both Atlanta and Birmingham for a cheap flight.

I wouldn't be surprised if people spend more in gas driving to and from Silver Comet from the eastern suburbs of Atlanta than they would save by flying an ULCC from Silver Comet.

Second of all, to go back to the first point, I said what Delta thinks is irrelevant to the argument about whether this is a waste of taxpayer money. If DL is fighting it, but the "end" they want is a valid, desirable end for society, what DL thinks is irrelevant. Yeah, DL probably isn't altruistically fighting to save taxpayer money, but if that's the outcome, what does it matter what DL's reasoning is? The second airport is unnecessary and a waste. I didn't say DL is irrelevant to the overall discussion.

Third... Having flown through TTN recently to see what it and F9 were like... I much prefer to use a more conveniently-located airport and fly DL. TTN is also quite a dump.
Restoring Penn State's transportation heritage...
 
FRAIAD
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 5):

Actually, what's going on here is exactly what happens in a free market economy: Delta is a behemoth of a company and uses its power and financial resources to influence decisions on issues that could affect its business model and success. And other players in the game, because of their inferior resources, are not able to make their voices heard as much. I'm a little sick of people worshipping the free market but complain when they don't like the results. And let me be clear, I'm a big fan of capitalism and a free market economy. But people need to understand that there might be implications that they don't agree with.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:41 pm

If DL was behind the lawsuit, it proves how PUJ is a viable market option that will increase competition against ATL and specifically DL. If it wasn't a market threat, DL wouldn't be resisting. And don't state the fallacy that DL is only caring about PUJ wasting money for the greater economy. They are in no position to know the true macroeconomic effects of this. It's pure arrogance if they think they do.

PUJ is a competitive option to ATL for multiple reasons, starting with these four:

Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 26):
1. some people like the Cheaper flights that G4 can provide (partially due to the less expense of the smaller airport).
2. some people like a smaller airport that is less chotic and easier to get from the car to the gate.
3. some people like FREE or very low cost parking (under $3 a day)
4. some people like airports where the delays are less and there is very little chance that you will sit on the plane waiting for a gate,

DL wants every other airline to compete directly with them at ATL. That way they face every disadvantage of ATL as well (delays, congestion, expense) and allows DL to directly compete city pair to city pair. It would be very easy for DL to flood the route with cheap fares and drive the other airline off. It's no wonder why even though ATL has capacity, there's been very little LCC advancement there.

Arguments that the location or road access will cause to fail are weak. For one, infrastructure can and will be improved if needed. And second, it's still a huge advantage to some for the reasons listed above. It's why I would often choose FSD over MSP - a longer trip - for my travels.

Quoting FRAIAD (Reply 38):
Actually, what's going on here is exactly what happens in a free market economy:

Not if DL was secretly behind this lawsuit. And plus, one can argue that the ATL airport as a whole is in a monopoly power position. The airport free market is being resisted in ATL.
 
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mayor
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:07 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 39):
And don't state the fallacy that DL is only caring about PUJ wasting money for the greater economy.

I don't believe anyone on here has stated that. DL is opposing it for their own reasons, but if keeping it closed saves the taxpayers money, then that is a side benefit.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
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coronado
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:35 pm

Especially if by 'tax payers' they mean creating a Metropolitan Atlanta Airport Authority and task it to fund a new airport, which IMHO inevitably means the big airport will end up having to raise its passenger fees, rents, etc to subsidize the remote airport.

In MSP IIRC the MAC authority looses money at all the secondary airports it operates in the Twin Cities (such as Flying Cloud, downtown St. Paul, etc which are pretty much only used by general aviation and corporate, with very minor commericial document and courier type flights) and these secondary airports therefore gets subsidized by the profits at MSP itself. Without these secondary airports MSP would be able to lower the fees it charges its airline tenants and the flying public in general. The stated reason for MSP financially supporting these secondary airports is to keep small aircraft from causing congestion at MSP. After they build the new north south at MSP, I think congestion at MSP is not exactly a serious problem.
The Original Coronado: First CV jet flights RG CV 990 July 1965; DL CV 880 July 1965; Spantax CV990 Feb 1973
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1633
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:28 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 33):
You can add more gates, but there's no good way to add any additional runways. The sixth runway is a pipe dream that will never happen.

Actually, not only is it going to happen, it isn't going to take that long. It is a central part of the new Master Plan. The decision has been made to locate it on existing property, between existing runways. This decision makes it much easier and much less expensive than other alternatives.

More info:

http://www.atlanta-airport.com/Airport/MasterPlan/index.html
 
beeweel15
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Thu Oct 30, 2014 11:35 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 39):
Quoting jerseyguy (Reply 26):
1. some people like the Cheaper flights that G4 can provide (partially due to the less expense of the smaller airport).
2. some people like a smaller airport that is less chotic and easier to get from the car to the gate.
3. some people like FREE or very low cost parking (under $3 a day)
4. some people like airports where the delays are less and there is very little chance that you will sit on the plane waiting for a gate,

DL wants every other airline to compete directly with them at ATL. That way they face every disadvantage of ATL as well (delays, congestion, expense) and allows DL to directly compete city pair to city pair.

I Agree 1000%

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 39):
It would be very easy for DL to flood the route with cheap fares and drive the other airline off. It's no wonder why even though ATL has capacity, there's been very little LCC advancement there.

They doing it right now in SEA with Alaska. They just destroyed T3 at JFK airport and threw the entire airport into chaos with available terminal space which forces airlines current and new to alter their plans to operate to NYC. T4 was once the best terminal at JFK now it is the worst since DL moved in and wrecked the place.
 
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mayor
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:28 am

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 43):

They doing it right now in SEA with Alaska. They just destroyed T3 at JFK airport and threw the entire airport into chaos with available terminal space which forces airlines current and new to alter their plans to operate to NYC. T4 was once the best terminal at JFK now it is the worst since DL moved in and wrecked the place.

You do realize that JFK airport and the Port Authority had an awful lot to do with that, don't you? Delta didn't just arrive one day and start tearing the terminal apart.


As far as SEA is concerned, I think AS can handle themselves. For that matter, AS kind of started it with it's operations in SLC before DL ever started expanding in SEA.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 39):

DL wants every other airline to compete directly with them at ATL. That way they face every disadvantage of ATL as well (delays, congestion, expense) and allows DL to directly compete city pair to city pair.

Isn't that what competition IS?
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
N867DA
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:36 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 44):
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 39):

DL wants every other airline to compete directly with them at ATL. That way they face every disadvantage of ATL as well (delays, congestion, expense) and allows DL to directly compete city pair to city pair.

Isn't that what competition IS?

The market is ripe for a second airport, but it is being held back by outside money. That is not competition. DL is rightfully acting in its best interests and I don't fault the airline one bit for it. It just so happens to be different than what is good for the market, and arguably good for Atlantans.
A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
 
727LOVER
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:43 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 44):
AS kind of started it with it's operations in SLC before DL ever started expanding in SEA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqyixwqiCag


Really?

Alaska Strikes Back At Delta (by globalflyer Dec 6 2013 in Civil Aviation)
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
dlramp4life
Posts: 1001
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RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:45 am

Quoting beeweel15 (Reply 43):
They doing it right now in SEA with Alaska. They just destroyed T3 at JFK airport and threw the entire airport into chaos with available terminal space which forces airlines current and new to alter their plans to operate to NYC. T4 was once the best terminal at JFK now it is the worst since DL moved in and wrecked the place.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that. Its all DL's fault.

Quoting mayor (Reply 44):

  

It looks like no one is paying attention to another detail about this whole thing also. Looks like the community does not want the airport to expand as well.

https://www.facebook.com/savepauldingco
 
AST1Driver
Posts: 116
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:07 pm

RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:03 am

The issue of a second Atlanta airport seems to come up a lot here. Obviously Delta would have a problem with this and would try to stop it. As has been mentioned multiple times now, this airport is just in the wrong place. For most of the people in the metro area it would still be quicker to drive to ATL. PDK or LUZ would be much better options for a second airport, but the noise police would never let that happen. Using part of Dobbins has been brought up in the past.

Even if Delta and the local residents dropped their objections to this airport, the only way it could work would be from a commitment of flights from one of the major airlines (3 or 4 flights from G4 would not cut it) and a large amount of tax dollars. The roads would need to be improved and the infrastructure at the airport upgraded. $$$ Would they want to install a tower? $$$ TSA security and baggage screening machines will have to be installed and manned. $$$ The costs would just be outrageous.
 
Jerseyguy
Posts: 2130
Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:05 pm

RE: DOT Looks Into DL Blocking Of Paulding Co Airport

Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:20 am

Quoting DXBDFWHGA (Reply 34):
Atlanta has the worst freeway system in the country.

Which makes it twice as hard to get to ATL

Quoting hohd (Reply 36):
If very few will use it and it is too far from ATL, then why is DL worried. Any service to that airport would fail. I think DL is secretly worried that enough passengers would use it when the price is right and they may have to slash fares to keep people defecting. And as far access, once the airport is established, proper access roads will be built. One always need to ensure that all parts of the city/county are developing.

  

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 37):
Completely agreed. This is one of the biggest reasons why it wouldn't be very workable. It's just so far away from the city and the major suburbs.

Well they tried at LZU which would be a better choice but the Delta and their merry band of NIMBYs drove the plan out of town.

Quoting cjg225 (Reply 37):
Third... Having flown through TTN recently to see what it and F9 were like... I much prefer to use a more conveniently-located airport and fly DL. TTN is also quite a dump.

You know, you are right, TTN is a very basic no-frills airport that admittedly isn't flashy. Things would be better if it weren't for the Bucks County NIMBYs, They would have likely added on to the terminal for baggage claim rather than put up a trailer if they weren't worried that an EIS would be held up in courts for YEARS by the aforementioned NIMBYs. But also TTN is not for people to fly into the area like from Atlanta, its more for people who live closer to TTN from the Central Jersey/North Philly Surburbs area, there are 2.5 million of us.

Quoting N867DA (Reply 45):
DL is rightfully acting in its best interests and I don't fault the airline one bit for it

If Delta is doing whats right and acting in their best interests why not be upfront about their actions??

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 47):
It looks like no one is paying attention to another detail about this whole thing also. Looks like the community does not want the airport to expand as well.

https://www.facebook.com/savepauldingco

The turnout at the polls were very minimal for County Commissioner with only 1.2% of registered voters Post 2 voting for the anti-expansion candidate and 6.5% of registered voters in Post 3 voting for the anti-expansion candidate. 1000 likes does not a majority of a 100,000 registered voters make.

Quoting Coronado (Reply 41):
Especially if by 'tax payers' they mean creating a Metropolitan Atlanta Airport Authority and task it to fund a new airport, which IMHO inevitably means the big airport will end up having to raise its passenger fees, rents, etc to subsidize the remote airport.

No one is suggesting that, the Paullding Co airport commission (which is staging itself to wean itself into a independent entity) and Propeller Investments want to run the airport.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 39):
DL wants every other airline to compete directly with them at ATL. That way they face every disadvantage of ATL as well (delays, congestion, expense) and allows DL to directly compete city pair to city pair. It would be very easy for DL to flood the route with cheap fares and drive the other airline off. It's no wonder why even though ATL has capacity, there's been very little LCC advancement there.



Other carriers shouldn't have to have those disadvantages because they chose another airport. DL created those disadvantages by expanding to the level that they are and flying prop planes everywhere.
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