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Boeing778X
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Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:41 am

Interesting article from Flightglobal.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/ai.../2014/10/used-aircraft-united-buy/

According to the article:

UA has leased 2 737-700s.
101 more Embrear E175s by 9/2017.
UA is interested in additional used aircraft, including "used A320s or the 20 Air Canada E190s."
"If they plan a multiple aircraft acquisition, Air Canada is the most likely source."...

...Which makes sense, as AC is getting rid of their A32Xs.

Very interesting indeed. Thoughts?
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maxamuus
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 3:57 am

Those NW DC9's for sale ?   
 
UA1K3MM
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:12 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Thread starter):
Quoting Boeing778X (Thread starter):

Posted the same question and article under the 3rd Qtr Results thread where the purchase of two 737-700s was reported.

I found the gap between UAX retirement of 50 passenger RJs in 2015 and the number of E175 joining the fleet to be very interesting. I hope they give serious consideration to the E190s coming out of the AC fleet next year and in 2016. It would give them great flexibility it having the right size plane for multiple markets. The faster the 50 seaters leave UAX the better, hopefully UA has finally recognized this fact and are beginning to take action.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:18 am

United is scrambling due to a lack of long-term narrow body plan. You can't have all 900 Max a/c and they haven't accounted for replacing their Airbus fleet.

They have to hope they can keep things going while they wait for folks to dump their 32x CEOs.
 
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Boeing778X
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:47 am

Quoting UA1K3MM (Reply 2):
I hope they give serious consideration to the E190s coming out of the AC fleet next year and in 2016

Now that would certainly be an interesting move, especially since they would be mainline if it happens.

Quoting UA1K3MM (Reply 2):
The faster the 50 seaters leave UAX the better,

Well, I am a big fan of the ERJ-145XR, so if those did leave, I'd be rather sad. Otherwise, I agree.

Quoting SonomaFlyer (Reply 3):
You can't have all 900 Max a/c and they haven't accounted for replacing their Airbus fleet.

Indeed, which is why a partial MAX 8 conversion could be warranted.
Also, if they odo rder A321neoLRs, they probably won't need that many MAX 9s. 65 MAX 8s and 35 MAX 9s sounds reasonable IMO.
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antoniemey
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:03 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 4):
Well, I am a big fan of the ERJ-145XR, so if those did leave, I'd be rather sad.

Well, EV has already started shedding aircraft, but I'm pretty sure none of the XRs are among them. Given their capabilities, they'll probably be the last of the current generation of 50-seat aircraft to leave UAX service.

Somewhat related, the sooner the old ASA CRJs disappear, the better. Those things are a pain in my hind end.
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TWA772LR
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:04 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Thread starter):
What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Am I the only one hoping for Concordes?

[Edited 2014-10-29 23:05:17]
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:36 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 4):
65 MAX 8s and 35 MAX 9s sounds reasonable IMO.

Frankly, I'd go all MAX-8's and match it with a big order for A321neo's.

Used AC A320ceo's seems like a good fit if the price is right.

No opinion on the E190. Love the aircraft but not sure if they would be the best addition for UA mainline.

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antoniemey
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:48 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 7):
No opinion on the E190. Love the aircraft but not sure if they would be the best addition for UA mainline.

UA needs something in that size bracket, and the E190's about the only thing that's available now, as opposed to "Maybe next year or so." Of course, I really don't think 20 of them is enough, so even if they took the AC birds it'd only be a start and possibly only an interim step to something else.
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petertenthije
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:04 am

Might they be interested in the Air Berlin 737 fleet? Air Berlin intends to standardize on the Airbus.
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UA444
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:06 am

I wish they'd get the C-series and more A320 family a/c.
 
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GCT64
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:55 am

The article says "The airline has already purchased two used 737-700s from lessors". I can't find any reference on the normal airline fleet sites to any new, upcoming or recent 737-700s for UA, does anyone know whether they are two "new to UA" aircraft (if so, which specific aircraft) or whether this is purchasing 2 737-700s that were previously leased to UA?
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:06 am

Quoting GCT64 (Reply 11):
The article says "The airline has already purchased two used 737-700s from lessors". I can't find any reference on the normal airline fleet sites to any new, upcoming or recent 737-700s for UA, does anyone know whether they are two "new to UA" aircraft (if so, which specific aircraft) or whether this is purchasing 2 737-700s that were previously leased to UA?

The aircraft are new to UA....UA hasn't confirmed exactly from who but some sleuthing by a few members on here is pointing to a couple of COPA 737-700s joining the fleet.
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flyby519
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:02 pm

Anyone have thoughts on UA acquiring 20 E190s from AA? It seems they needs to either get more of them, or sell the existing frames. 20 E190s is a very small narrowbody fleet for an airline the size of AA/UA.
 
tommy767
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:07 pm

How about not retiring the 757s as fast? Not rocket science here.
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:12 pm

Quoting UA1K3MM (Reply 2):
I found the gap between UAX retirement of 50 passenger RJs in 2015 and the number of E175 joining the fleet to be very interesting.

UA isn't that far along in its retirement of 50-seaters but, IMHO, it won't want to replace 50-seaters seat-for-seat with 76/100/125-seat aircraft. Some cities just won't support decent frequency of 76-seaters and will be dropped entirely by UA. In some markets the extra seats will crash average fares; in other places mainline operating costs will lead to unacceptable ROIC.
 
FRNT787
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:14 pm

The Republic Airways E190s will be available soon as subleases or sales and they're already big United partners. Those could add to the 20 or so from AC
 
Rdh3e
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:31 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 15):
UA isn't that far along in its retirement of 50-seaters

I couldn't find the old document from the website to see the 2013 retirements but this year UA has/will retired (45) 50 seaters, which is a pretty decent start. We'll probably get the 2015 figures with either the Q4 or Q1 results.

http://ir.unitedcontinentalholdings....nix.zhtml?c=83680&p=irol-fleetInfo

[Edited 2014-10-30 07:38:29]
 
Thomaas
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 7):
Used AC A320ceo's seems like a good fit if the price is right.

AC's A320s are not young so I doubt they'd be an attractive option.

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 8):
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 7):
No opinion on the E190. Love the aircraft but not sure if they would be the best addition for UA mainline.

UA needs something in that size bracket, and the E190's about the only thing that's available now, as opposed to "Maybe next year or so." Of course, I really don't think 20 of them is enough, so even if they took the AC birds it'd only be a start and possibly only an interim step to something else.

AC has 25 more to sell as MAX deliveries start so UA could end up with as much as 45 E190s from AC. Not a bad number at all.
 
tommy767
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:52 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 17):

Except 45 isn't that many in the grand scope of the network. They have an ala AA M80 problem circa 2007 -- they have over 250 RJs in the fleet.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:09 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 14):

How about not retiring the 757s as fast? Not rocket science here.

  

I understand the 757s they're selling to FedEx are getting a pretty good sum of $, but if they're still earmarking to simply retire/scrap some other 757s, it would seem natural to slow their retirement...IMO. We all know the 739s are more efficient but as long as the 757 can still turn some profit, regardless of how small, they still add to the bottom line.

Of the other A/C available, according to the article, I would say look very hard at the 737-700s first since WN has also indicated they are looking for more used A/C. UA could operate either the 737 or A320 without missing a beat while the A320s would be useless to WN. WN would be left empty-handed and sometimes a good defense is just as important as a good offense.
 
FriendlySkies
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:48 pm

One comment on the used Airbus...UA's entire Airbus fleet is IAE powered, so I'd think that unless they were picking up a substantial number of used A319/A320, anything they'd go after would also be IAE.

I know the 737s are CFM so they have plenty of know-how, but the A320 CFM is still a slightly different engine.
 
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:27 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 20):
long as the 757 can still turn some profit, regardless of how small, they still add to the bottom line.

This is the issue. I doubt we would be seeing widespread 757 retirement initiatives if it were still profitable across most mission profiles.
 
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 7:27 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 20):

Interestingly enough, they only sold 30 to Fedex. So that means minus the 15 in the PS fleet, they still have access to 52 that are either currently operating or stored.

I don't get why they are looking to buy 73G's. Not exactly the most desireable of the NB types. Used A320s have to be a nightmare to onboard second hand. It just seems easier to operate the 757s in the short term.

Quoting codc10 (Reply 22):

Nah. If that's the case then you'd see them slashing the sCO 757 fleet as well.

Hey, the gradual draw down of the 757 fleet seems to be working fine over at Delta and American. There is no reason why UA has to be in a rush to retire them so quick. I think it's a consequence of trying to phase out some of the sUA F/a's with different contracts.

[Edited 2014-10-30 12:36:46]
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 9:11 pm

Quoting Antoniemey (Reply 5):
Well, EV has already started shedding aircraft, but I'm pretty sure none of the XRs are among them. Given their capabilities, they'll probably be the last of the current generation of 50-seat aircraft to leave UAX service.

Somewhat related, the sooner the old ASA CRJs disappear, the better. Those things are a pain in my hind end.

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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:40 am

Does anyone know how the E190 is behaving these days? They have a reputation for been hangar queens, and while B6 says that the dispatch reliability is about the same as the A320 I think that comes with a more intensive preventative maintenance program.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 19):
Except 45 isn't that many in the grand scope of the network.

It's a 20% draw-down in one year. That is a pretty damn significant number. Now that the E75s are rolling in every week that number is going to increase next year. We are probably less than 12 months off the point when the EV E45 fleet is cut in half from 2013 levels.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 23):
I think it's a consequence of trying to phase out some of the sUA F/a's with different contracts.

 
You do realise don't you that the 757s are being replaced one-for-one by 737-900s that are flown on the sUA side? The pilots are now integrated so the guys up front could be ex-sUA or ex-sCO, but the new deliveries on the sUA side are staffed 100% by sUA in the cabin.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 23):
If that's the case then you'd see them slashing the sCO 757 fleet as well.

Totally different mission profiles.

There is nothing to replace the 757 TATL at this stage, whereas everything that a 757 does domestically can be done by something significantly more efficient.
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:52 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Thread starter):
101 more Embrear E175s by 9/2017.

Hmmmm...

Better than CRJs at least 
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:57 am

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 4):
Well, I am a big fan of the ERJ-145XR, so if those did leave, I'd be rather sad. Otherwise, I agree.

Frankly, as the A320s or others start arriving, and they start to bump the 50-seaters off routes where they clearly don't belong, like IAH-BNA or IAH-MEX, those airplanes can go back to the thin routes they were meant for, like IAH-CHA or even new routes like IAH-SGF.

I took a look at the passenger numbers out of Houston in September, and the O&D traffic is clearly growing. But UA is losing all the connecting traffic they used to have. In the old days of hub-and-spoke, O&D that filled one-third of a plane would enable connecting traffic to fill the remaining two-thirds. That was the value of the 50-seaters. By concentrating on the O&D traffic to the hub cities, UA has abandoned the connecting traffic, and their RPMs have suffered.
 
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:57 am

Another factor in rushing to retire the 757s no one has mentioned is maintenance costs.
If the frames are approaching one of the more expensive checks it is definitely unprofitable to make that investment if the planes are only marginally profitable at best.
 
United1
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:06 am

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 26):

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 19):
Except 45 isn't that many in the grand scope of the network.

It's a 20% draw-down in one year. That is a pretty damn significant number. Now that the E75s are rolling in every week that number is going to increase next year. We are probably less than 12 months off the point when the EV E45 fleet is cut in half from 2013 levels.

...yeah there are at least 101 50 seat RJs coming off of contract next year. Assuming all 101 leave the fleet UA will have pulled about 40% of the 50 seaters out of service by the end of next year...that's quite a reduction. Only 53 E175s coming online next year so expect more mainline additions as UA intends on growing a percentage point or two next year.
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:14 am

Quoting United1 (Reply 30):
Only 53 E175s coming online next year so expect more mainline additions as UA intends on growing a percentage point or two next year.

It seems like those AC E190s could be useful then.
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olympic472
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:03 am

   how about 737s from Ryanair    keep the cabin at the back and add some E+ seats
This fits right in with what the new UA is doing   
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:49 am

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 7):
No opinion on the E190. Love the aircraft but not sure if they would be the best addition for UA mainline.

The E190s would be perfect for places like DTW. Previously UA (and CO) operated B733s and 735s from ORD, DEN and IAH, then UA went CRJ/CR7 and E145 which is a massive downgrade from 733/5s. When the 735s left, IAH-DTW went mostly E145s, ORD and DEN mix of CRJ/CR7. Now DTW is getting B738/9s and A319/320s again mainly on the first out/last in with a mix of E145s/CRJ/CR7 on the other flights.

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 21):
One comment on the used Airbus...UA's entire Airbus fleet is IAE powered,

NZ will be disposing 14 IAE powered A320s in a few years
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kraz911
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:32 am

Hello all,

Being bored, I compared UA fleet list of a320's and AC a320's and it shows AC's are older. Unless the major maintenance was already done and the price on the lot were an unbelievable deal, I don't UA going for the deal. They'd be better to slow the 757 reductions. The E190's would be a good addition due to availability and the building E175 fleet with it's commonality will allow them to upgauge easily. Just my opinion...
 
cvg2lga
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:28 pm

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 1):
Those NW DC9's for sale
Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 6):
Am I the only one hoping for Concordes?

Yes & Yes!!

Tchau

DA-
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MIflyer12
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:40 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 25):
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 19):
Except 45 isn't that many in the grand scope of the network.

It's a 20% draw-down in one year. That is a pretty damn significant number.

As somebody remarked above, it's a decent start. DL announced it retired 28 50-seaters just last quarter, toward an earlier announced goal of parking 88 this year. And DL started with a much richer mix of 2-class planes in its Connection/Express fleet than United did at the start of 2014.
 
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:16 pm

I question whether the E190 is economical enough to warrant acquisition. With high mainline crew costs, they weren't posting good CASM numbers in the aircraft operating cost thread earlier this year--even if adjusted for stage length. I just don't see them being a good fit for UA. I think you need something a bit larger and newer.

And no, I would not recommend delaying the 757 retirements. Everything I've read and heard from UA about the 757/739 swap tells me that what they're doing is brilliant financially. They really can't retire them fast enough. The longer they wait, the more money UA will lose when they eventually have to retire the airplane. The 757s still have value and the 739s save a significant amount of operating cost. It's the right move right now.
 
jayunited
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:56 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 23):
Interestingly enough, they only sold 30 to Fedex. So that means minus the 15 in the PS fleet, they still have access to 52 that are either currently operating or stored.

I don't get why they are looking to buy 73G's. Not exactly the most desireable of the NB types. Used A320s have to be a nightmare to onboard second hand. It just seems easier to operate the 757s in the short term.
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 23):
Hey, the gradual draw down of the 757 fleet seems to be working fine over at Delta and American. There is no reason why UA has to be in a rush to retire them so quick. I think it's a consequence of trying to phase out some of the sUA F/a's with different contracts.

I agree with you that UA should keep some of the sUA 757's
I believe the main reason why UA was is such a rush to retire the sUA non-p.s 757's is because they are not fuel efficient and according to UA the 739ER's that are replacing the 757's will save UA over two million dollars in fuel cost every year. However, those figures were based upon oil being at or above $100 dollars a barrel. If the volatility in the oil market settles down and oil can remain below lets say (and I'm just estimating) $90 dollars a barrel perhaps UA may decide that is is cheaper to keep the some sUA 757's in the fleet. UA keeps changing the retirement schedules for sUA aircraft 744's will be sticking around until the end of this decade, at least 11 (if not more) 3 class 763's will get refurbished head to toe and remain in the fleet until sometime next decade. So I'm taking the position that just because UA has said all sUA non-p.s. 757's will be out of the fleet by the end of 2015 that position can change but only if it makes sense financially and the price of oil will play a major factor in that decision.

Also I'm hoping that UA will split the 737 MAX order between 8 and 9 variant and hopefully place an order for the A321neoLR.
 
bigb
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 37):
I agree with you that UA should keep some of the sUA 757's
I believe the main reason why UA was is such a rush to retire the sUA non-p.s 757's is because they are not fuel efficient and according to UA the 739ER's that are replacing the 757's will save UA over two million dollars in fuel cost every year. However, those figures were based upon oil being at or above $100 dollars a barrel. If the volatility in the oil market settles down and oil can remain below lets say (and I'm just estimating) $90 dollars a barrel perhaps UA may decide that is is cheaper to keep the some sUA 757's in the fleet. UA keeps changing the retirement schedules for sUA aircraft 744's will be sticking around until the end of this decade, at least 11 (if not more) 3 class 763's will get refurbished head to toe and remain in the fleet until sometime next decade. So I'm taking the position that just because UA has said all sUA non-p.s. 757's will be out of the fleet by the end of 2015 that position can change but only if it makes sense financially and the price of oil will play a major factor in that decision.

Also I'm hoping that UA will split the 737 MAX order between 8 and 9 variant and hopefully place an order for the A321neoLR

It would not be wise for UA to plan for oil to stay around $90 dollars a barrel forever though. If 739 is saving 2 million dollars in fuel cost per year based on $100 a barrel, one can expect the yearly fuel expenses for the 739 to be lower at 90 dollars a barrel. If you have a buyer for the 757 who is offering up a good amount of money for the plane, then UA is smart to move on that deal to take advantage of the planes value. The value of the 757 is only going to go down with time.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:00 pm

Quoting jayunited (Reply 37):
I agree with you that UA should keep some of the sUA 757's

From another a.net thread:

752:
N556UA ferried SFO-GYR 2143/27Oct for fleet exit/lease return
N558UA ferried SFO-GYR 2175/28Oct for fleet exit/lease return
N561UA ferried SFO-GYR 2176/29Oct for fleet exit/lease return
N563UA entered SFO 741/29Oct, probable fleet exit/lease return
N564UA ferried SFO-GYR 2141/28Oct for fleet exit/lease return
N566UA entered SFO 573/27Oct, probable fleet exit/lease return

I don't think the front office at UA shares our view.  
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:04 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 39):

Ugh what a waste. You know UA has to pay lease return penalties for early retirements, correct?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
codc10
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:18 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 23):
Nah. If that's the case then you'd see them slashing the sCO 757 fleet as well.

Hey, the gradual draw down of the 757 fleet seems to be working fine over at Delta and American. There is no reason why UA has to be in a rush to retire them so quick. I think it's a consequence of trying to phase out some of the sUA F/a's with different contracts.

In this day and age, the 757 in a ~180-seat domestic configuration is not economical, on balance, compared to a 739ER/A321 with a similar number of seats... even if fuel stays down. It's not that the 757 is a bad airplane (I love the 757) but it is not competitive on domestic sectors where margins are lower.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 25):
There is nothing to replace the 757 TATL at this stage, whereas everything that a 757 does domestically can be done by something significantly more efficient.

OTOH, on longer hauls, or routes where the 737 lacks the performance to operate, the 757 is a good choice. That's why UAL will still have about 80 757s on property when it's all said and done. That's a pretty strong fleet... so what's wrong with that?

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 40):
Ugh what a waste. You know UA has to pay lease return penalties for early retirements, correct?

Not if the lease is ending, and even if not, there won't be if the frames are going to FedEx. In many cases, the airplanes are being removed as they come off lease.

Quoting freeze3192 (Reply 24):

Not quite. http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...ient=firefox-a&hl=en&gl=us&strip=1

While the underlying asset may be for sale, there is no indication that such a transaction would result in cancellation of the leases to UA. The value of the frames is the fact that they are currently on lease with maturities in the 2018-2022 timeframe. In fact, the article notes that the aircraft value could be substantially degraded by an early lease return, but my understanding is that is not contemplated presently, barring unforeseen market changes.

The XRs have slightly improved operating economics over the older ER/EP/LR models and certainly an advantage over the 135s.

[Edited 2014-10-31 13:27:28]
 
tommy767
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Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:32 pm

Quoting codc10 (Reply 41):
It's not that the 757 is a bad airplane (I love the 757) but it is not competitive on domestic sectors where margins are lower.

Again, DL and AA seem to think otherwise. It's a bad sign when it's the same amount of frequency on BOS-SFO but 5 of the 6 flights are on 738s. That's a severe reduction in seating capacity when it was all 757s just last year with nearly the same frequency.

Quoting codc10 (Reply 41):
Not if the lease is ending, and even if not, there won't be if the frames are going to FedEx. In many cases, the airplanes are being removed as they come off lease.

There was a breakdown a few quarters ago for lease return penalties in a webinar. IIRC, something like 30+ million. Makes you wonder if it's worth it to tweak the configuration a bit to add more seats instead of paying for those expensive 739s.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
Planeflyer
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:33 pm

Could be a smart move given how low fuel is and how low it will stay in the midterm
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:51 pm

Is there any reason we have to live with handed down aircraft while third world airlines buying brand new planes? Its not that UA is short on cash.
All posts are just opinions.
 
FriendlySkies
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Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 3:57 pm

RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:09 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 44):
Is there any reason we have to live with handed down aircraft while third world airlines buying brand new planes? Its not that UA is short on cash.

Availability is probably the biggest issue for A32S/737 frames...I doubt UA could get many new builds in the next year, if any.

If they were serious about the E190, they could probably convert some of there E175 options to firm E190 or 195 orders though.

Or they could buy those 40 C-series slots from Republic (wishful thinking...).
 
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Boeing778X
Topic Author
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:10 pm

Quoting FriendlySkies (Reply 45):
If they were serious about the E190, they could probably convert some of there E175 options to firm E190 or 195 orders though.

Or they could buy those 40 C-series slots from Republic (wishful thinking...).

I had a thought that since UA is really invested in Embrear, they should at least consider the E2 series (E175/190 E2.)

As for the CS300s, I'm wishing for that too, but it's probably far fetched.
United Airlines: $#!ttin' On Everyone Since 1931
 
opethfan
Posts: 940
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RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:56 pm

Perhaps we'd see a 3 way deal in which AC get Republic's CS300s and UA get ACs EJets.

And although AC's A320s are old, they're probably low(er) on cycles.
 
jetero
Posts: 4673
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 3:45 am

RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:34 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 17):
I couldn't find the old document from the website to see the 2013 retirements but this year UA has/will retired (45) 50 seaters, which is a pretty decent start.
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 19):
Except 45 isn't that many in the grand scope of the network.

Retiring more than 10% of the fleet in 10 months isn't that many?

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 19):
They have an ala AA M80 problem circa 2007 -- they have over 250 RJs in the fleet.

As does the new American. As did Delta 2 years ago. Delta still has 150. Is that an acceptable number?

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 27):
those airplanes can go back to the thin routes they were meant for, like IAH-CHA or even new routes like IAH-SGF.

IAH-CHA doesn't exist any more, although we know they're interested in subsidizing the route and that you seem to think taking advantage of such route subsidies will make or break United.

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 27):
But UA is losing all the connecting traffic they used to have.

"UA is losing all the connecting traffic"? So their originating percentage is 100%? UA's originating percentage in Houston is 40% and has been +/-5% of this for a long time.

Quoting toxtethogrady (Reply 27):
By concentrating on the O&D traffic to the hub cities, UA has abandoned the connecting traffic, and their RPMs have suffered.

Yeah, when you carry more connecting passengers than originating from Houston, you've definitely abandoned the connecting traffic. I can think of only 5 airports in the country with a higher connecting percentage than IAH: CLT, ATL, and DFW (but only slightly). DTW is close.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 23):
I don't get why they are looking to buy 73G's.

Because, obviously, UA management is the confederacy of dunces and absolutely incompetent. If only we could form a board of a.net special advisors to help them clarify the really hard questions, e.g., "Mr Smisek, are you aware that a 737-700 is smaller than a 737-800? Are you aware that a 737-700 has a high CASM? Are you aware that you have 52 757s that you don't have to retire and that they can climb really high and really fast and go really far? BTW, no one likes the globe or the checkered seat pattern. They prefer 3 different liveries flying side by side with peeling paint and CRTs for IFE."

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 28):
Another factor in rushing to retire the 757s no one has mentioned is maintenance costs.
If the frames are approaching one of the more expensive checks it is definitely unprofitable to make that investment if the planes are only marginally profitable at best.

What a silly pants you are! That doesn't make any sense! Have you factored in the "they climb really fast" factor into your calculation?

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 40):
Ugh what a waste. You know UA has to pay lease return penalties for early retirements, correct?

(1) Are they even doing that? (2) Please enlighten us as to how much these penalties cost versus continuing to operate them.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 42):
Again, DL and AA seem to think otherwise.

Nope, they're just on a different schedule. The ironic thing is that 5 years from now UA will probably be a bigger 757 operator than both of them!

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 42):
It's a bad sign when it's the same amount of frequency on BOS-SFO but 5 of the 6 flights are on 738s. That's a severe reduction in seating capacity when it was all 757s just last year with nearly the same frequency.

Well UA will be liquidated by next spring, so by all means please come back and tell us you told us so. I'll buy you a drink and invite Dr Steve Brule.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 42):
There was a breakdown a few quarters ago for lease return penalties in a webinar. IIRC, something like 30+ million. Makes you wonder if it's worth it to tweak the configuration a bit to add more seats instead of paying for those expensive 739s.

That must be right. If only those idiots in Chicago had heard of the Internet, then they would know that the answer is always in a webinar! They're still reading "Operating Leases for Dummies!"

Quoting Boeing778X (Reply 46):
I had a thought that since UA is really invested in Embrear, they should at least consider the E2 series (E175/190 E2.)

What they've done to date and this are not mutually exclusive.
 
tommy767
Posts: 4658
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 12:18 pm

RE: Flightglobal: What Used Aircraft Could UA Buy?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 11:43 pm

Quoting jetero (Reply 48):
Retiring more than 10% of the fleet in 10 months isn't that many?

Not at all. 50 seat RJs are fuel thirsty domestic aircraft. If UA would hold onto the 757 and expand the 739 fleet while not outsourcing, think of the possibilities of where they could be (oh wait, you'd disagree with me anyway so forget it)

Quoting jetero (Reply 48):
Delta still has 150. Is that an acceptable number?
UA has around 262. That is 100 more aircraft. Can you say ONE-HUNDRED? Is that not a lot to you?

Quoting jetero (Reply 48):
Because, obviously, UA management is the confederacy of dunces and absolutely incompetent.

You didn't answer my question. You are bringing up something completely irrelevant.

Quoting jetero (Reply 48):
(1) Are they even doing that? (2) Please enlighten us as to how much these penalties cost versus continuing to operate them.

They had to pay lease penalties for sure in 2013. Not sure how much a new 739 costs but I'm sure that is hidden in relation to the penalties (they aren't cheap aircraft.)

Quoting jetero (Reply 48):
Nope, they're just on a different schedule. The ironic thing is that 5 years from now UA will probably be a bigger 757 operator than both of them!
Quoting jetero (Reply 48):
Well UA will be liquidated by next spring, so by all means please come back and tell us you told us so. I'll buy you a drink and invite Dr Steve Brule.


Delta is expected to hold onto PMNW and PMDL 752 built after 1995 (56) plus the ex-TWA 757s (17) PMNW 753s which would get the fleet into the 90s.

UA will have 41 (sCO) plus 15 (sUA) put 20ish 753. So you are wrong.

Perhaps you should hang out with Dr. Steve Brule since you took an intelligent part of my post and pissed all over it. Shall we talk about seat reduction?

Quoting jetero (Reply 48):
That must be right. If only those idiots in Chicago had heard of the Internet, then they would know that the answer is always in a webinar! They're still reading "Operating Leases for Dummies!"

Yeah they probably are considering it's been over 4 years and they haven't officially merged the two airlines together.

Oh BTW: Welcome to a.net! Way to start attacking people on your second post.

[Edited 2014-10-31 16:52:22]

[Edited 2014-10-31 16:53:40]
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA

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