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migair54
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Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:34 pm

Thai is more and more financial troubles, Could / Should Thailand government cut or reduce 5th freedom that some airlines are enjoying out of BKK airport to help TG??

Currently few airlines enjoy 5th freedom flights out of BKK to destinations where TG is a direct competition, like HKG, CAN, Australia, now with the financial troubles TG are suffering, why to allow this airlines to operate such a flights???

I know not all the problems or TG are coming from this flights, low cost in the region has boomed and that had a big impact on TG, MH... But why allow airlines like EK, KQ, ET, QR to get pax on routes where TG operates? If the government wants more competence they can give to Air Asia Thailand, Bangkok Air...
 
UAEflyer
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:55 pm

In a free trade country like Thaliand, where they want more direct investment , the idea of cutting is not an option it will always be allowing more. I don't have any data, but I assume that the money in from 5th freedom is a good amount and useful for the authorities. Putting money in TG would be the last option, governments always encourage foreign investments so it create more jobs and bring cash to the economy.
 
airpearl
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 1:09 pm

Quoting migair54 (Thread starter):
Currently few airlines enjoy 5th freedom flights out of BKK to destinations where TG is a direct competition, like HKG, CAN, Australia, now with the financial troubles TG are suffering, why to allow this airlines to operate such a flights???

Perhaps the government looks at the bigger picture in that tourism is hugely important to the country's economy and the majority of these tourists arrive by plane. I don't think the Thai government is particularly concerned that they should be flying in by TG. One of the national carrier's roles is to support the country's tourism industry, and in that respect, it does a pretty decent job I think.
 
S75752
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:47 pm

I think the question would be if cutting others 5th freedom flights would really make much if any of a difference to TG's deep troubles...
 
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777Jet
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:39 am

BKK must be up there on any list of airports with the most 5th freedom flights, particularly on routes like BKK-HKG and BKK-SIN.

However, if the government stepped in to reduce such numbers it most likely:

1) Would not help TG that much at all. TG is responsible for its own issues and IMO can somehow address them themselves.

and

2) Would not do anything good for the economy / tourism / investment.
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LAXintl
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:55 am

As others have mentioned clamping down on foreign services likely would hurt more than any benefit generated for TG, especially now post coup with negative publicity effecting tourism and business confidence in the nation.

Probably important to remember Thailand has long been a champion in liberal air-service agreements including strong supporter of the multi-decade ASEAN open-sky dream, which will have its final phase come into effect in 2015.

Dialing back any of these policies especially the ASEAN pact would likely be quite costly politically as well if not impossible.
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Viscount724
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:58 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 4):
BKK must be up there on any list of airports with the most 5th freedom flights, particularly on routes like BKK-HKG and BKK-SIN.

But 5th freedom operations at BKK are much fewer now than in earlier years when BKK was a usual stop on many Europe-Japan/HKG etc. flights since aircraft in those days lacked the range, or weren't permitted to overfly the Soviet Union.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:31 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 6):
But 5th freedom operations at BKK are much fewer now than in earlier years when BKK was a usual stop on many Europe-Japan/HKG etc. flights since aircraft in those days lacked the range, or weren't permitted to overfly the Soviet Union.

This is true. Nonetheless, When I fly between BKK-HKG I am always on a 5th freedom flight (unless I use UA award miles to fly on TG). The TG fares are not worth it. Last time I got to fly the EK A380 for about $150 AUD each way which, at that time, was about 1/3 of the cost that TG wanted. It was a no brainer... Fly on a TG A330 or whatever showed up for about $450 AUD each way or a new EK A380 for 1/3 of the cost  

The Ethiopian 767 is next on my list on that route if the price is right  
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johnclipper
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:48 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 7):
The Ethiopian 767 is next on my list on that route if the price is right

Sorry, ET dropped the route a while ago in favor of ADD-HKG-ICN. You still have RJ (787), KQ (787) and UL (A330/A340) to choose from
"Flown every aircraft since the Wright Flyer" (guys, if you take this literally, then you need to get a life...)
 
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qfvhoqa
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:09 am

Quoting 777Jet (Reply 7):
The Ethiopian 767 is next on my list on that route if the price is right
Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 8):
Sorry, ET dropped the route a while ago in favor of ADD-HKG-ICN. You still have RJ (787), KQ (787) and UL (A330/A340) to choose from

If you're keen on trying ET then there's still BKK-KUL on their 763.

Back on topic, as other have said the Thai Government would probably prefer to have more incoming passengers to Thailand than protect their loss-making national carrier.
 
drgmobile
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 12:00 pm

Quoting migair54 (Thread starter):
Thai is more and more financial troubles, Could / Should Thailand government cut or reduce 5th freedom that some airlines are enjoying out of BKK airport to help TG??

I'll bypass the valid point put forward that the usage of fifths is significantly down and go straight to your suggestion. So you want Thailand to unilaterally cancel bilateral air agreements that were negotiated with countries around the world? There are broader implications to a country's bilateral diplomatic and trade relationships from a move like that.

In this forum, I'm reminded of my favorite quote from Henry David Thorough: "f I knew for a certainty that a man was coming to my house with the conscious design of doing me good, I should run for my life."
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:30 pm

If Thailand wants to protect TG and still look like it's not chasing away other airlines from flying to Bangkok, wouldn't be wiser for the Thai government to inform the airlines holding 5th freedom rights that those rights are only allowed if routes are flown only from DMK?
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
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mercure1
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:35 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 11):

If Thailand wants to protect TG and still look like it's not chasing away other airlines from flying to Bangkok, wouldn't be wiser for the Thai government to inform the airlines holding 5th freedom rights that those rights are only allowed if routes are flown only from DMK?

Thank you for giving gift to foreign airlines. I bet many would be happy to service more central DMK versus going to distant BKK.
mercure f-wtcc
 
drgmobile
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:37 pm

Quoting 2travel2know2 (Reply 11):
If Thailand wants to protect TG and still look like it's not chasing away other airlines from flying to Bangkok, wouldn't be wiser for the Thai government to inform the airlines holding 5th freedom rights that those rights are only allowed if routes are flown only from DMK?

If such provisions are not written into the bilateral trade agreement, then to do this means unilaterally abrogating international trade agreements signed with foreign nations. You don't just get to decide you want to change the rules one day without consequences.
 
2travel2know2
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 12):
Thank you for giving gift to foreign airlines. I bet many would be happy to service more central DMK versus going to distant BKK.

So if TG moves to DMK and the others stay in BKK, TG could get an edge on Bangkok O/D traffic?
I'm not on CM's payroll.
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:54 pm

The whole point of developing and moving ops to Suvarnabhumi Airport was due to lack of space at Don Mueang.

Today DMK is the primary domestic airport and home based of LCCs like Air Asia and Nok, and recently Thai Smile moved some ops over from BKK.

I doubt TG would fit its entire ops into DMK even if it wanted to return today, but more problematic would be the legal issues Thailand would face if it discriminated openly to foreign carriers.
It would the equivalent of forcing foreign operators to use LGW in London while BA and UK carriers could utilize LHR, or make foreign carriers use ONT while US carriers use LAX. A huge diplomatic disaster that goes against decades of international agreements.
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peterinlisbon
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:54 pm

Maybe if they cancel the 5th freedom rights some airlines will just use another place to stop or cancel Bangkok altogether. In any case, Air Asia and other low-cost airlines are the real competition.
 
migair54
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:14 pm

I´m not sure if the 5th freedom flights add so much to the country itself, I think Bangkok Airway, Thai, Thai Smile or even Air Asia Thailand could take over easily that routes, as someone has posted here, EK fares are very cheap, almost as a low cost carrier, but i´m sure they are getting good load on Business and first, that´s why they fly the route, and all that money is going away.

Pax flying the routes will do it anyway, and obviously the competence is great for pax, but they can also make local airlines to compete and the final revenue will stay at home.

Which one do you think is the most profitable 5th freedom out of BKK?? HKG? KUL? SYD?
 
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777Jet
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:18 am

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 8):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 7):
The Ethiopian 767 is next on my list on that route if the price is right

Sorry, ET dropped the route a while ago in favor of ADD-HKG-ICN. You still have RJ (787), KQ (787) and UL (A330/A340) to choose from

It is available for a random date in Feb 2015 according to Expedia:


""
One way price for 1 traveller, including taxes and fees: $229.20
12:45pm 4:55pm 3h 10m

Bangkok (BKK) to Hong Kong (HKG)
Ethiopian Airlines 608
Economy / Coach (U)
Boeing 767-300

""

Seat map is that of a 763 too...

Perhaps the BKK-HKG leg is coming back?

Quoting qfvhoqa (Reply 9):
If you're keen on trying ET then there's still BKK-KUL on their 763.

Thanks for that...
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lawair
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Sat Nov 01, 2014 3:11 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 17):
Which one do you think is the most profitable 5th freedom out of BKK?? HKG? KUL? SYD?

I guess with this question, we should probably throw into consideration all the other 5th freedom routes out of BKK...

MAA (UU)
CAN (MD, UL)
CMB (CX)
AMS (CI, BR)
NRT (DL)
GAY/GAU/IXB (KB)
LHR (BR)
VIE (BR)
MNL (KU)
HAN (QR)
SGN (TK)

(plus the HKG, KUL, and SYD you mention, and perhaps a couple others that I'm missing)
 
drgmobile
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:59 pm

Quoting lawair (Reply 19):
I guess with this question, we should probably throw into consideration all the other 5th freedom routes out of BKK...

MAA (UU)
CAN (MD, UL)
CMB (CX)
AMS (CI, BR)
NRT (DL)
GAY/GAU/IXB (KB)
LHR (BR)
VIE (BR)
MNL (KU)
HAN (QR)
SGN (TK)

I don't have handy access to the schedule data to calculate this myself, but how big a marketshare do fifth freedom operations represent on these routes? How much does this represent out of BKK as a whole? My suspicion is that fifth freedom carriers are a scapegoat for what is a failure to adapt to the new competitive environment overall so typical of markets where lethargic government owned carriers rule.
 
migair54
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Sat Nov 01, 2014 5:59 pm

Quoting drgmobile (Reply 20):
I don't have handy access to the schedule data to calculate this myself, but how big a marketshare do fifth freedom operations represent on these routes? How much does this represent out of BKK as a whole? My suspicion is that fifth freedom carriers are a scapegoat for what is a failure to adapt to the new competitive environment overall so typical of markets where lethargic government owned carriers rule.

Yes, I also think the main problem is the wrong management, but my question at the beginning was to try to understand why so many 5th freedom flights out of BKK, because some of the routes, where nobody else operates is ok, but AMS, LHR, MNL, HKG, NRT, SYD, in this routes we have airlines from both ends so giving the traffic away so much is also not helping at all.

Do you think the government of Thailand will ever consider selling Thai?? Maybe a completely overhaul could do a miracle and rebuild TG starting by the top.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Sun Nov 02, 2014 2:21 am

Quoting JohnClipper (Reply 8):
Quoting 777Jet (Reply 7):
The Ethiopian 767 is next on my list on that route if the price is right

Sorry, ET dropped the route a while ago in favor of ADD-HKG-ICN.

Schedules still show one ET 763 a week in each direction BKK-HKG-BKK. Tuesday in both directions.

ET608 BKK 1245 HKG 1655
ET609 HKG 2150 BKK 0005
 
scorpy
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Sun Nov 02, 2014 4:51 am

Not having military coups every few years would perhaps be a better way to help tourism than protectionism.
 
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777Jet
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RE: Could Thailand Govt Reduce 5th Freedom To Help TG?

Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:07 am

Quoting scorpy (Reply 23):
Not having military coups every few years would perhaps be a better way to help tourism than protectionism.

It is safer for tourists under the coup - if only they understood that. Fewer riots and demonstrations since the coup. I lived in BKK in 06 during the coup then. I arrived in BKK in May this year the day after the coup started. I went back to BKK in June this year again during the coup. I have never felt safer in Thailand and feel that now is a great time to visit Thailand.
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