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OP3000
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LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 2:38 pm

LAN and TAM are set to announce a completely new brand in the next weeks, this according to a Folha de Sao Paulo article published today that sources an interview in Santiago with the company CEO.

Both airlines will operate under a new, single brand which is being developed with the help of the Interbrand agency. The new brand may be an amalgamation of "LAN" and "TAM" (ie. LATAM), or just a completely new creation with no relation to either name. Off the table already is the idea of staying with the LAN brand and re-naming TAM as LAN Brasil. The article also says that the name will be 100% integrated into operations within a year and a half.

http://www1.folha.uol.com.br/mercado...n-vao-operar-com-marca-unica.shtml (In Portuguese)

Towards the bottom the article also talks about dissapointment among investors with the stock performance since the merger, with a quote from LATAM CEO Enrique Cueto attributing that to the weak growth in Brazil since the merger (going from 7% a year in 2011 to about 1% currently).

[Edited 2014-10-31 07:46:56]
 
jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:11 pm

I guess they're afraid the Brazillians would abandon them for Azul/Gol/Avianca if they ever call it "LAN Brasil"

problem is that most of them will have a clear mind and realize that their national carrier is now controlled by Chile behind the scenes

just ask how upset the Dutch are that their proud national carrier became "Air France NL"
 
rampbro
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 1):
problem is that most of them will have a clear mind and realize that their national carrier is now controlled by Chile behind the scenes

perhaps their clearmindedness will lead them instead to realize that the days of the "national carrier" are long past?
 
A388
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:49 pm

Wow, I didn't see this coming because I thaught that the LAN brand was a strong brand but apparently it may well not be the case? Why fix it, when it ain't broke?

A388
 
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 2):
perhaps their clearmindedness will lead them instead to realize that the days of the "national carrier" are long past?

Indeed. The likes of Swiss, Austrian and SABENA (under various names) are grateful to Lufthansa for taking them under their wing. I'm not aware of anyone boycotting these airlines because they are ultimately foreign owned.

Have people stopped drinking Miller Lite since it became South African?  
 
jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:58 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 2):
perhaps their clearmindedness will lead them instead to realize that the days of the "national carrier" are long past?

brasil is not some small nation that doesn't make much sense runner their own carrier ... they most certainly deserve a carrier that with the nation's best interests in mind. their complete surrender of GIG is already a clear testament that they only care about delivering profits back to Santiago instead of providing a service for residents and visitors of Rio

why do you think Azul is so hot lately ? the locals are migrating to the carrier that truly represents their nation.
 
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:03 pm

Quoting A388 (Reply 3):
Wow, I didn't see this coming because I thaught that the LAN brand was a strong brand but apparently it may well not be the case? Why fix it, when it ain't broke?

 checkmark 

LAN is a strong brand, and works very well in many nations in South America. I doubt Brazil would be any different, but I guess nationalistic feeling will prevail in Brazil.

What I find bothersome is now the need to rebrand all the already established LAN airlines in so many nations.
A very costly exercise not just in physical sense, but having to reeducate the public which already in many cases had to learn about the branding change to LAN once already in recent years. For example in Colombia AIRES > LAN Colombia > NEW Name.

Personally I see LAN having very strong brand awareness in the region. It would be sad to squander what they have managed to build already. Rebrand will require a massive and costly campaign to yet again build awareness of the new name/logo/colors etc..

[Edited 2014-10-31 09:11:50]
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MaverickM11
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:04 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
the locals are migrating to the carrier that truly represents their nation.

No way. That *never* factors into a buying decision in any meaningful way.
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jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:07 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 4):
The likes of Swiss, Austrian and SABENA (under various names) are grateful to Lufthansa for taking them under their wing.

The current SWISS is very much run like an independent airline.

And let's not compare SN to JJ. Belgium is a small nation and BRU isn't that huge a market. Now compare that to Brasil and GRU.
 
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:34 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 2):
perhaps their clearmindedness will lead them instead to realize that the days of the "national carrier" are long past?

Are they?

Air CANADA
AMERICAN Airline
AeroMEXICO
Air FRANCE
EMIRATES Airlines
SINGAPORE Airlines
QATAR Airways
TURKISH Airlines

These are only some of those "long past national carriers" that currently serve Brazil.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:58 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 7):
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
the locals are migrating to the carrier that truly represents their nation.

No way. That *never* factors into a buying decision in any meaningful way.

Depends on which nation you ask. Koreans and Taiwanese are very loyal to their home-grown carriers even when faced with foreign competition.

The Japanese go out of their way to stay on ANA/JAL even if the US carriers are far cheaper.
 
PPVRA
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:37 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
brasil is not some small nation that doesn't make much sense runner their own carrier ... they most certainly deserve a carrier that with the nation's best interests in mind. their complete surrender of GIG is already a clear testament that they only care about delivering profits back to Santiago instead of providing a service for residents and visitors of Rio

Nothing to do with being a small or large nation, or even "deserving" service. This is about the ability to sustain service. It's also about quality management who can deliver quality service. This is what people want.

This is far more important than stroking egos, which gets you nothing, nowhere and is a very expensive habit.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 5):
why do you think Azul is so hot lately ? the locals are migrating to the carrier that truly represents their nation.

Azul is providing value that others don't provide, hence the secret to their success. It has absolutely nothing to do with flying Embraer airplanes or painting the national flag on one of their airplanes.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:44 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):

Nothing to do with being a small or large nation, or even "deserving" service. This is about the ability to sustain service. It's also about quality management who can deliver quality service. This is what people want.

Delivering what service? Shutting half the GIG routes and force everyone to go through GRU ?
 
pierrelav
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:50 pm

They can call it LATA " tin can" as far as I am concerned. Their service, especially TAM' s is appalling.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 5:53 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 10):
Depends on which nation you ask. Koreans and Taiwanese are very loyal to their home-grown carriers even when faced with foreign competition.

Perhaps. But that's an entirely different issue from passengers' concern over the ownership of the carriers.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 12):
Shutting half the GIG routes and force everyone to go through GRU ?

Focusing on one, stronger hub is a rational decision; it's extremely rare to find two hubs working 200 miles apart, especially when the demand profile of both are so different.
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coronado
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:10 pm

Suggestion (in jest) for a consolidated name combining their TAM and Andes region heritages: TAM ANdino COmpania de Aviacion which could be abbreviated as TAMANCO would be a cute name among Brazilians..

(For those not familiar with Portuguese, Tamanco is an inexpensive, uncomfortable wooden clog footwear.).

As a kid we used to refer to TAP Portuguese Airlines as Tamancos Aereos Portugueses-as the 707's came in from Lisbon to GIG during the late 60's-so not exactly original   
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jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:13 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):

Focusing on one, stronger hub is a rational decision; it's extremely rare to find two hubs working 200 miles apart, especially when the demand profile of both are so different.

Try DCA-PHL-NYC or ZRH-MUC-FRA.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):
Perhaps. But that's an entirely different issue from passengers' concern over the ownership of the carriers.

It does. Imagine the fallout if China Eastern acquires Korean Air and call it "MUKorea dba KE" ? People won't view KE the same way, regardless of what it is called.
 
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:29 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 16):
Try DCA-PHL-NYC or ZRH-MUC-FRA.

It's a little early to say DCA-PHL-NYC is working as the merger is far from complete, and I don't think anyone would say NYC was "working" for AA. ZRH-MUC are two different countries, and two different airlines. I'd also add that if LH+LX were one carrier, and borders not an issue, MUC would be the odd man out and lose most of its service. GIG would just siphon off GRU, particularly because of its smaller, generally lower yield local component. Focusing on GRU for now is smart, for any number of reasons.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 16):
It does. Imagine the fallout if China Eastern acquires Korean Air and call it "MUKorea dba KE" ? People won't view KE the same way, regardless of what it is called.

People have zero issue flying any of the LCC offspring in the Air Asia group, Ryanair, Jetstar, Norwegian, or Etihad partners--it's just a non issue.
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jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:33 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):

People have zero issue flying any of the LCC offspring in the Air Asia group, Ryanair, Jetstar, Norwegian, or Etihad partners--it's just a non issue.

Again, it's dependent on country. Have you noticed the trouble the LCCs have infiltrating Korea and Taiwan, and the so called LCCs in Japan are still somewhat linked to JAL and ANA ?

For a low enough price, people would fly Air Koryo, but that's another story.
 
SCQ83
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:43 pm

I don't think this is comparable to renaming KLM "Air France NL".

Both LAN and TAM are acronyms that actually do not include the name of the country (Lineas Areas de Transporte and Taxi Aereo Marilia).

Than my feeling about Brazil and TAM is that Brazilians are not particularly keen or proud on TAM, and they would rather fly foreign airlines or now Azul which is more customer-friendly.

This is nothing comparable to Swiss (which is sold as a prestige brand) or Singapore or Emirates which are the best ambassadors of their country and their citizens are really proud of their carrier.

Getting a new name for TAM does not look to me like a big deal.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:52 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 19):

This is nothing comparable to Swiss (which is sold as a prestige brand) or Singapore or Emirates which are the best ambassadors of their country and their citizens are really proud of their carrier.

Correct you on a minor technicality here - EY is the national carrier and ambassador of UAE. EK only represents Dubai.

But I'm not looking forward to the day when the entire East Asian aviation market collapse into the hands of 3 oligopolistic conglomerates.
 
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 19):
Both LAN and TAM are acronyms that actually do not include the name of the country (Lineas Areas de Transporte and Taxi Aereo Marilia).

I thought it was Transportes Aéreos Meridionais but your comment is spot on. "Brasil", "Brasileiros", etc. is clearly absent from the name of the company.

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 19):
Getting a new name for TAM does not look to me like a big deal.

I agree.
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jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:02 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 19):
Both LAN and TAM are acronyms that actually do not include the name of the country (Lineas Areas de Transporte and Taxi Aereo Marilia).

Cathay Pacific, EVA, Asiana don't have their locale names at all in it, but people immediately associate with HKG TPE ICN.

Or the best known example - Lufthansa. No one can say they don't recognize that as Germany.
 
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:02 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 8):
And let's not compare SN to JJ. Belgium is a small nation and BRU isn't that huge a market. Now compare that to Brasil and GRU.

I think a convincing argument could be advanced that a prickly nationalism is more likely to exist in a small country like, oh, Belgium rather than a large one like, oh, Brazil.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 10):
The Japanese go out of their way to stay on ANA/JAL even if the US carriers are far cheaper.

Comparing Japan to ANY other country is usually a mistake. No large advanced country is anywhere near so homogenous or conformist - certainly not BRAZIL!!!  
 
jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:13 pm

Quoting PM (Reply 23):

I think a convincing argument could be advanced that a prickly nationalism is more likely to exist in a small country like, oh, Belgium rather than a large one like, oh, Brazil.

But nationalism for a small country like Belgium is also a reason why SN cannot survive standalone. The choice is either joining the LH Group, or have no SN at all and have Ryanair run over the whole place from Charleroi.
 
SCQ83
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:19 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 22):
Cathay Pacific, EVA, Asiana don't have their locale names at all in it, but people immediately associate with HKG TPE ICN.

Umm yes but those are well established world-renowned brands (notably Cathay). Honestly TAM outside Brazil is not a very well-known or prestigious brand.

Quoting PM (Reply 23):
Comparing Japan to ANY other country is usually a mistake. No large advanced country is anywhere near so homogenous or conformist - certainly not BRAZIL!!!

Brazil is in fact a very homogeneous country despite the multiracial aspect. Like Japan, it has a minimal number of foreigners living there (0.3% of total population), and they do not receive many international tourists (5 million for a 200 million country) nor most of Brazilians travel abroad (for obvious economic reasons).

I think the main difference is prestige. Japanese are proud of their brands and technology and would feel comfortable in their environment. Brazilians usually prefer anything (cars, technology, clothes) that is Western-branded as it is perceived of a superior quality (sometimes just for pure snobbism) than local produce.

I would think the problem with creating a "LAN Brasil" is that it would be seen as a spin-off of a Chilean brand. However, creating a "LATAM" (whatever they call it) new brand from scratch they can create a brand that replicates global standards in a continent-wide Latin American carrier. So they can be "proud" of a Latin American carrier wherever in the world.
 
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:29 pm

As for Interbrand, they were the same firm that redesigned the IB livery recently (bland), along with TG's rebrand (good).

In general, Interbrand's work seems to be hit-or-miss, but mostly hits. Their work for AT&T, Prada, McDonald's, Samsung, and Sephora is top-notch - especially what they did to the exteriors and interiors of McDonald's. The Jean Paul Gaultier perfume Ma Dame, which was yanked from American stores just one year after launch - partly due to a package that you couldn't return once opened - is a famous dud of theirs.

Still, I'll be interested to see if this new brand is more TG or IB.
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jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 25):

Umm yes but those are well established world-renowned brands (notably Cathay). Honestly TAM outside Brazil is not a very well-known or prestigious brand.

TAM is still more known than a brand-new brand that no one heard of (since they're throwing away the LAN name too)
 
MaverickM11
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:35 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 18):
Have you noticed the trouble the LCCs have infiltrating Korea and Taiwan, and the so called LCCs in Japan are still somewhat linked to JAL and ANA ?

Those are all due to multiple separate issues--nothing to do with pax not flying them because of ownership questions.
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PlaneHunter
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:43 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
I'd also add that if LH+LX were one carrier, and borders not an issue, MUC would be the odd man out and lose most of its service.

MUC handled 38.6 million pax in 2013, ZRH 24.8 million - while the share of connecting passengers is similar (38% vs 33%).


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jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:48 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 28):

Those are all due to multiple separate issues--nothing to do with pax not flying them because of ownership questions.

issues like "low load factor" or "low yield" ? those are the symptoms, not the root cause.

A flight going from 80% LF to 75% LF because only a few folks book away from them is sufficient to make the route go bloody red. There's a reason why every one of those European conglomerates kept all their brands around, even the weaker ones. They know the repercussions if they attempt to overly amalgamate.

Lat-Am is the *only* continent where folks don't particularly mind about national brands (or have a choice for that matter), but from what I'm seeing, Brazil doesn't fall under that same mold.
 
AR385
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:55 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 21):
I thought it was Transportes Aéreos Meridionais but your comment is spot on. "Brasil", "Brasileiros", etc. is clearly absent from the name of the company.

That´s why the put "Brasil" on their engines. If not for that, few other than your average a.netter, would not know where TAM comes from. Anyway, they never had a good reputation in Brazil. They were and are known for bad service, both ground and inflight, and many people still remember the spate of fatal F100 crashes they had.
 
BigOrange
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 7:58 pm

Why not just call the airline LATAM like the group?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:03 pm

Quoting PlaneHunter (Reply 29):
MUC handled 38.6 million pax in 2013, ZRH 24.8 million - while the share of connecting passengers is similar (38% vs 33%).

Yep I'd still say that MUC is the odd man out. But that's another thread.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 30):
issues like "low load factor" or "low yield" ? those are the symptoms, not the root cause.

The root cause is mostly not getting into the airports they want to serve. Zero to do with ownership.
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AA787
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:09 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 27):

Hi. I think you're being a little shallow in your analysis. TAM didn't stop serving GIG just because it is part of LATAM and people definitely are not flying Azul because of some nationalistic dissatisfaction with TAM.

In addition, your analysis of different national customs lacks any geographic context. You mention a lot of "flag carriers" (LH, LX, SN, OS, CX, KE, OZ, JL, ANA, etc.). None of these can be compared to TAM as none of these countries can be compared to Brazil. Brazil is enormous, with tons of potential for development.

A more apt comparison is China, but I do not see you freaking out over the fact that Air China is not the dominant player in Shanghai. It has nothing to do with who owns the airline. It has to do with how an airline can maximize their resources to create a profitable niche. You can't expect TAM to completely serve Brazil the same way you cannot expect Delta to completely serve the US.

I think the rebranding will have no effect on TAM's ability to fly millions of Brazilians ever year.

After a long hiatus,
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OP3000
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:12 pm

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 26):
In general, Interbrand's work seems to be hit-or-miss, but mostly hits. Their work for AT&T, Prada, McDonald's, Samsung, and Sephora is top-notch - especially what they did to the exteriors and interiors of McDonald's. The Jean Paul Gaultier perfume Ma Dame, which was yanked from American stores just one year after launch - partly due to a package that you couldn't return once opened - is a famous dud of theirs.

Good creatives are important, but just as critical is having decision-makers at the client company who steer towards the most appealing/applicable concepts. Typically the agency will throw a handful or more options, and management can demand more even if all of those are lame.

I think sticking with the LAN brand would've been most practical and effective, also because the current livery is great IMO. From a name identity point of view in Brazil TAM was far from being as powerful a brand as Varig once was, and "LAN" (not LanChile) is not seen as particularly Chilean given that it already served Brazil from other Latin American countries (Argentina, Peru, etc). That said, let's see what they come up with. Perhaps a good brand refresh will help generate more enthusiasm among consumers that have already been there & done that with LAN and TAM and have not been particularly impressed with either.
 
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:16 pm

LATAM is an obvious choice. It's offers brand continuity from both the LAN and TAM brands and it also happens to suggest that this is a Latin American airline, which it certainly is.

I just hope that the resulting livery looks more like LAN's and less like TAM's.
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kiwiandrew

RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:27 pm

LATAM certainly seems to work well in English.... I have no idea how it works in Portuguese or Spanish though. Would any mother tongue speakers care to comment on whether it would be anything more or less than a meaningless sound in either language ?
 
jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:28 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 33):

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 30):
issues like "low load factor" or "low yield" ? those are the symptoms, not the root cause.

The root cause is mostly not getting into the airports they want to serve. Zero to do with ownership.

That's only jetstar Japan. And it would've failed even if it were granted HND access when you go against ANA and JAL.

If price and schedules were the only factors, both ANA and JAL would've died a long time ago because of their high cost base and their even higher price quotes.

Quoting AA787 (Reply 34):
A more apt comparison is China, but I do not see you freaking out over the fact that Air China is not the dominant player in Shanghai.

You DO know that CA, MU, and CZ all came from the same national carrier CAAC (plus countless other regional ones) ? It was forced split by the government, and underneath it all, it's not a free market where CA MU CZ compete at will.

Quoting AA787 (Reply 34):
You can't expect TAM to completely serve Brazil the same way you cannot expect Delta to completely serve the US.

No, but the fact that LAN thinks a BRIC nation of nearly 200 million residents can't support more than 1 long-haul hub ? That's ridiculous.

Again, case in point - LH has FRA MUC and kinda has DUS and they aren't remotely worried about the survivability of each of those (and that's before we factor in all the peripheral ones such as ZRH VIE BRU GVA)

But the weird thing is that LAN is trying to make BSB their new #2 hub even though GIG metro has 2.7x the GDP of DF/BSB. Foreign carriers are dying to serve GIG but not BSB, yet LAN chose to run away from the competition, thus handing over the golden ticket to Rio's riches on a silver platter.
 
LH526
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:02 pm

LanChile / LAN is nearly 90 years old and so ranks among the oldest in the world ... it's a brand well known in South america and killing the LAN name wold be totally ridiculous in my eyes. TAM is fairly new and LAN Brasil would be a much wiser choice than any LATAM etc ... and inbetween.

LAN and TAM started with a similar cabin redesign some months ago that worked perfectly together ... let's hope they have similar taste and sense when it comes to the entire brand.
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jetblue1965
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:08 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
it also happens to suggest that this is a Latin American airline, which it certainly is.

May I present to you

North American Airlines, Air Europa, Afriqiyah Airways
 
alfa164
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:49 pm

Quoting AA787 (Reply 34):
A more apt comparison is China, but I do not see you freaking out over the fact that Air China is not the dominant player in Shanghai. It has nothing to do with who owns the airline. It has to do with how an airline can maximize their resources to create a profitable niche. You can't expect TAM to completely serve Brazil the same way you cannot expect Delta to completely serve the US.

While I tend to agree with many of your conclusions, a comparison to China is not particularly apt. There may not be one "national airllne" brand in that country, but all the major mainland airlines are government-owned, under one umbrella. Although the national government doles out routes and frequencies on a seemingly undecipherable (but often clearly political) basis, all the majora operate under tha CACC "corporate" authority.

That probably raises the question of why so many dofferent airline "brands" in the CACC system... but that would be the appropriate under another post...
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FWAERJ
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 9:54 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 41):
There may not be one "national airllne" brand in that country, but all the major mainland airlines are government-owned, under one umbrella.

The #4 airline in China, HU, is not state-owned or under the CAAC umbrella like CZ, MU, and CA are.
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VCEflyboy
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:03 pm

I think you are underestimating the sophistication of Brazilian travellers.
The fact that LaTam is providing unrivalled connectivity and yet failing to capture growth means they are failing in terms of service and offering. I suspect the new branding won't be just a new logo, but a redefined corporate culture, more consistent offering, greater incentives for loyalty.
 
C010T3
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Fri Oct 31, 2014 10:45 pm

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 32):
Why not just call the airline LATAM like the group?
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):
LATAM is an obvious choice.
Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 37):
LATAM certainly seems to work well in English.... I have no idea how it works in Portuguese or Spanish though. Would any mother tongue speakers care to comment on whether it would be anything more or less than a meaningless sound in either language ?

LATAM sounds like latão ("big tin can") in Portuguese, so, if the brand is used, it will forever be mocked among Brazilians.
 
steve6666
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:42 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 38):

No, but the fact that LAN thinks a BRIC nation of nearly 200 million residents can't support more than 1 long-haul hub ? That's ridiculous.

No, no it's not. GIG was cannibalising GRU and destroying yield at the same time. Why would you as a Paulistano take a direct flight from GRU say to LHR when you could take a 52 minute flight to GIG, make a connection to London and save yourself half the cost? I looked at prices often enough when I lived in Sao Paulo - and via Rio connections to anywhere were consistently staggeringly cheaper than direct from GRU.

Brazil might have 200 million people but it's an economy in recession, interest rates are in double figures and how many of those people earning a salario minimo of US$400 a month can afford to fly? That does not compare well with Europe, with a much higher average income and much lower income inequality.

BSB has bucket loads of bent politicians paying waiters in the senate's restaurant salaries of US$6000 a month, so going after BSB makes sense for LATAM (and actually, more than one or two foreign carriers) - but for the significant majority of foreign carriers, their clientele would clearly far rather go to GIG for business and personal reasons (and because BSB is as dull as ditchwater).

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 43):
I think you are underestimating the sophistication of Brazilian travellers.
The fact that LaTam is providing unrivalled connectivity and yet failing to capture growth means they are failing in terms of service and offering. I suspect the new branding won't be just a new logo, but a redefined corporate culture, more consistent offering, greater incentives for loyalty.

The incentives for loyalty to old TAM have, frankly, sucked. Fidelidade was/is a dismal programme compared to, say, BA Exec Club. But I think you are overestimating the sophistication of the Brazilian traveller, which, in my experience is much more likely to take a decision based purely on cost. And GOL almost invariably comes out cheaper domestically (they are also a significantly worse airline than TAM) - last time I was looking at flights GOL was about 40% of the price of TAM for same day/approx time. I mean, Azul bus people from downtown Sao Paulo to VCP - something that could conceivably take several hours if the traffic is bad - why would you do that other than for a cheaper fare? (Assuming it's a destination served from CGH/GRU). TAM's domestic service I don't actually think is bad - I've certainly had far worse from BA in terms of cabin crew/catering/on time performance - but I don't honestly think the international hard product is up to much, certainly not on the A330s/old config 77Ws - and nowhere near a patch on LAN's 763s.
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raaadek
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Sat Nov 01, 2014 12:43 am

For Polish speakers, LATAM Airlines sounds like a name for Polish LCC start up. LATAM in polish means - I fly/i'm flying.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:13 am

Pan American? They are, you know.  
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rg787
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:28 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 25):
I think the main difference is prestige. Japanese are proud of their brands and technology and would feel comfortable in their environment. Brazilians usually prefer anything (cars, technology, clothes) that is Western-branded as it is perceived of a superior quality (sometimes just for pure snobbism) than local produce.

While this is generally true, it is not applicable to airlines in Brazil's case. Not so long ago there was Varig, which was the country's pride everywhere. Along with this, Varig was well known outside the country and had a very good reputation, things that made Brazilians love the brand.

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 43):

I think you are underestimating the sophistication of Brazilian travellers.
The fact that LaTam is providing unrivalled connectivity and yet failing to capture growth means they are failing in terms of service and offering. I suspect the new branding won't be just a new logo, but a redefined corporate culture, more consistent offering, greater incentives for loyalty.

  

Quoting AA787 (Reply 34):
Hi. I think you're being a little shallow in your analysis. TAM didn't stop serving GIG just because it is part of LATAM and people definitely are not flying Azul because of some nationalistic dissatisfaction with TAM.


Leaving the GIG part for another discussion, Azul at least in my perception is closer to being the next Varig than JJ ever was. Their reputation has never been that good because of the multiple crashes they had and because their service has never been know as GOOD, even with that 'magic red carpet' thing. On the other side, Azul did that special livery with the Brazilian flag, uses Embraer's planes and is commonly serving markets never served by any other carrier, which is very appealing to Brazilian's pride and, together with their superior service, is making them grow better.

On a different subject, I think JJ is not positioning itself well. Gol is the low cost airline in Brazil and when you think of cheap in every sense of the word you are going to think about them. Azul is the new child in the market with very good service and going to cities never serviced before. TAM positions itself above those two but their service is nowhere as good as Azul's inside Brazil and I don't even need to comment on it when going international, so they are really a medium airline trying to sell itself as premium, and it does not work.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: LAN/TAM To Re-Brand With Completely New Name

Sat Nov 01, 2014 2:36 am

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 37):
LATAM certainly seems to work well in English.... I have no idea how it works in Portuguese or Spanish though. Would any mother tongue speakers care to comment on whether it would be anything more or less than a meaningless sound in either language ?

Latinoamérica. It works perfectly well.

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 44):

LATAM sounds like latão ("big tin can") in Portuguese, so, if the brand is used, it will forever be mocked among Brazilians.

See, now I didn't know that.

I'm bilingual English/Spanish, but not Portuguese.
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