Welcome to our new thread "Turkish Aviation" fans,
Happy Halloween and a warm welcome to November.


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Photo © RuudBrinks-photography


I don't have my usual list of news to start the thread but please continue from where we left off last month
and add your news, photos, rumors, rants and good old sense of humor.
I am off in a few hours to CPH from New York (my first SK flight in almost 20 years!) and will be traveling most of the month but will try to chime in when I can.

Good morning everyone and thanks TK787 for starting the new months' thread.

Does anybody know what the regulations are for missing/delayed baggage for domestic and international flights to Turkey? Flew FRA SAW EDO with PC in one tickey and bag is missing. EDO being served only on certain days it means I don't have anything to wear for some days. They said they wouldn't cover any costs, but is that the rule?

Quoting stylo777 (Reply 1): EDO being served only on certain days it means I don't have anything to wear for some days. They said they wouldn't cover any costs, but is that the rule? Borajet is still trying to find their right business model I guess. Nowadays they added ESB ADB TZX to their routemap from SAW, directly playing against lowcost PC. On the other hand they also have some regional routes like EDO and coming up again CKZ. What is the influence of the all-Embraer fleet ?

The price you pay for flying with a low cost airline. It's really impossible for them to deliver that checked baggage to you, unless they have an internline agreement with some other people that serve the destination, aka Borajet.

Speaking of Borajet, the summer time destinations like Bodrum , Greek Islands, etc. would have to come down and go somewhere. I guess the management's thought is to use the airplanes for destinations that would generate them revenue.
The aircraft is fine, as long as you can create the yield. Going against Pegasus doesn't make sense, as they will be serving the destinations with lower frequency than PC. The airplane burns about 2200 lbs per engine per hour. An Airbus 320 can go about 2400-2600 lbs/hr/engine. EMB190 carries 100, Airbus 320 150-180.. You do the math in terms of the CASM.

The only way Borajet can be a successful venture is to do a CPA with a major player, or open themselves up to other carriers.

It takes a management that knows what they are doing to realize this.. They lack that big time.

Thanks TK787 for another thread, and happy November!

Who's NOT shaving this month?   

Turkish to deploy A330 on Istanbul-Bangkok-Ho Chi Minh City from Feb-2015

Bit of an oddball post, since I sent something similar as a private message to one of the more informed TK posters and he suggested I post here. Its a quasi TR that is not up to the excellent TR standard on this site. Just some observations from TK's YUL offering, which also gave me a chance to fly in TK J after a long and happy, if almost over, association with Y+ Comfort Class ex-YYZ. All in all, I'm pleased TK is in YUL, since it gets rid of an extra return flight to YYZ.

YUL-IST-YUL
- TK uses the National Bank Lounge, not AC Maple Leaf, on account of its late departure. AC MLL closes at 2100 (or so I was told by the Lounge attendant); TK departs at 2330 with a 2230 boarding time.
- The A333 J hard product is excellent. The Sleep pack (duvet, pillow, mattress-thing) was very good and useful. Slept very well indeed. Sleep pack offered on both inbound and outbound, as were full amenity kits.
- The food offerings were excellent, as usual.The pre-flight drink - a non-alchoholic fizzy berry drink - is a new favorite (move over mint lemonade). Excellent lamb main course on the return leg. TK now offers a homemade iced tea, but the crew weren't familiar with it. My request was lost in translation - I ended up with an unexpected, but nice, hot tea instead. A similar request (for experimentation sake) yielded a cold tea on the way back, although it wasn't quite what was advertised. TK needs to get its crew up to scratch on its menus (which are ....really long and elaborate).
- Service was excellent. I passed on the breakfast (heavy dinner and 3 hours to bide in the lounge led me to prefer sleep). The FA was genuinely concerned and insisted on serving me at least a juice. Caught me by surprise - I'm more used to N. American and European indifference.
- Cockpit crews spoke good - and clear - English. Big, big change from the non-communicating lot who flew me on TK 330s in the past. The captain on IST-YUL was excellent at keeping us informed about a delay associated with a med emergency on the ground shortly after we started taxiing for departure.
- The Crabtree and Evelyn Amenity is great. Mine was repossessed as soon as I got home. Fortunately I got a Porsche one to replace it.

IST-DEL-IST
- A midhaul J product that just isn't up to scratch. It feels like a N. American transcon J product, albeit with a better seat. The catering quality was good, but there was an absence of choice. DEL-IST clocks in at 7 hrs but its fair to say that TK's DEL-IST product is nowhere nearly in the same bracket as TATL flights of similar length (YYZ/YUL-LHR). Disappointing to say the least. The no-choice desert - which is a longstanding fixture on this flight in both J and Y - is, in a word, awful. TK's breakfast, however, is one of the best out there - in both cabins.
- On the flipside, it was a short dinner service, which allowed for sleep.
- 333 for IST-DEL, 332 for DEL-IST. Not just a 332, but the infamous TC-JNG. A terrible J cabin, if ever there was one. Comfort is superior to it.
- Y blanket on a redeye. Seriously? It's not long enough to cover a person lying down. Not good enough for a 7 hr flight in J.
- IST-DEL was full of Germans. Two in front of me, two behind me, two across from me, and one next to me. When I boarded at a remote stand, I was a bit concerned I had gotten on to a plane to Germany. No wonder LH isn't happy.

Lounge/IST
- Easily my favorite lounge in the world. Clean, well-stocked and with ample seating space. Wi-fi was fast.
- The Pide station will forever be a source of consternation. It is incredibly popular - and an excellent place to witness unashamed human greed  P), but for some reason, only one of the two stations tends to be open. My favorite - the cheese with Olive sauce/paste (I think that is what it is). The kebab bar is nice too.
- Downstairs is significantly less crowded than upstairs.
- Luggage lockers: I love them, but TK needs to start maintaining them. Some were not functioning while others were missing their doors. Had to wait at least 10 minutes on both entries to grab one. Thankfully, there is constant turnover and people generally don't wait for a locker to free up, so if you wait, you will get one. One of my favorite lounge features. There are more downstairs, but they were in even worse shape (despite, presumably, being newer). Worst I've seen in 2 years of transiting through IST.
- Shower wait times are increasing. On the outbound (circa 1700) it was 30 min. On the inbound (circa 1100), it was about 1.5 hours. The facilities are clean and spacious.
-IST duty free seems to get more and more expensive.
- Security: Its certainly better than before. Short waits, and dedicated J/TK*G lines. No more stopping before security for UK/US/CAN flights, which is an improvement.
- Boarding: Oh dear. YUL and DEL were fine. IST was...an experience. The lounge doesn't flash up gates till 1 hour before the flight. DEL-IST flashed up around 1855 for a 1955 departure. By the time I got to the gate at around 1910, I was one of the last ones onto the bus to the remote stand. For those familiar with IST, the flight departed from gate 305, which is at the exact opposite end of the terminal. Not fun rushing there seeing screens flash final call. 1900 is a busy time at IST. Also, no priority boarding at IST, which was a bit annoying. On the bright side, at least they've started making announcements at the gate.
- Remote stands: What in the world is going on at IST? All of my 330 flights ended up at remote stands. The majority of aircraft at the gates were narrow bodies and I saw a rather amazing lineup of widebodies at the stands. Is it to ensure quick turnarounds for narrowbodies?

Overall Impressions
- TK J on its 'midhaul' flights is significantly degraded compared to its full J product. This reduces its appeal for me given that AC/LH and AC/9W offer full J products on both legs of CAN-IND routes. It also puts UA into contention for me (CO 777s ex EWR to DEL).
- TC-JNG is simply not good enough. I don't know why its taken TK so long to sort it out. Its a terrible product.
- Ground handling at IST is still a mess, but it has improved some since the first time I flew TK.
- Flight deck announcements have been hit or miss in my experience. Not this time. Clear and informative, and definitely a break from the tradition of no announcements.
- Apart from the tea confusion, service was stellar.

Bottom Line
Will I fly TK again? Of course - apart from TC-JNG, which is a bit of a lottery - no complaints. However, TK will not be my automatic choice until that aircraft, which has a happy habit of popping up on IST-DEL randomly, is either retired or refurbished (which, I've been informed, may take place in December). The inconsistency of the product is also going to be taken into consideration, though it only requires slightly more choice in catering and a proper duvet on the midhaul flight to make TK a no-brainer for me.

Happy November everyone. Starting to get a bit chilly at night even here in sunny California.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 5):

Good feedback.

In fairness to TC-JNG, that aircraft has only been to DEL - 3x (23Jul, 25Oct, 29Oct) since July 1st.

Its primarily ends up on DAC or KBL services between random European or domestic legs.

On comments about midhaul service, yes it an abridged version - simply because of the short (5hr'ish) flight times and also timing of the evening departure. There simply no time/need for multiple meal service when people want to most often sleep.

Lastly, on the gates, yes often widebodies can end up a remote stands, or parked down at the hangar.
It comes down to gate utilization by maximizing turns. Widebodies often sit for many hours between their trips, compared to narrowbodies. Also there is incentive to keep shorthaul ontime performance up, as delays can ripple the whole day. A slight delay on a widebody is not as big of an issue and can often be made up enroute, or during the turnaround time at the next station.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6): Lastly, on the gates, yes often widebodies can end up a remote stands, or parked down at the hangar. It comes down to gate utilization by maximizing turns.

The reason for the widebodies ending up on remote stands is also that there is a contruction going on in front of the old tower and that two or three gates destined for WB aircraft can not be used atm.

Thanks TK787 for another thread and safe travels  

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 5): Its a quasi TR

Interesting read and thanks for the comments.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 5): -IST duty free seems to get more and more expensive.

Yes I noticed that on my last visit. IST was the place to pick up great duty free bargains but now I find LHR and ATH tend to be cheaper. The only things I tend to buy at IST now are local products such as traditional sweets if I have not already got them in downtown Istanbul.

Quoting TK787 (Thread starter): (my first SK flight in almost 20 years!)

It was nice to be on a carrier other than TK for a change. It is nice to compare SK to TK.
Lot calmer, civilized cabin..no screaming kids running around. Cabin temperature just right.
343 was in good shape, IFE did not try but very tiny screens, 1st meal slept through, 2nd meal breakfast small but fine.
As usual long time FA's, very professional dealing with the pax.
SK 320 pitch was better than the SK 343 pitch, go figure!!
What is incredible is the inflight magazine and the route map for SAS!!!
It used to be a legacy flag carrier but looking at the route map, it reminds me of TK in the 1980's. No Central Asia, No Africa, No South America, spotty European network. Very surprised.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6): In fairness to TC-JNG, that aircraft has only been to DEL - 3x (23Jul, 25Oct, 29Oct) since July 1st.

I see. Unfortunately, I have a terrible track record on the 330s to the subcontinent. Only about a third of them have been on 333s - the remainder were on non-IFE 332s of various stock.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 6): On comments about midhaul service, yes it an abridged version - simply because of the short (5hr'ish) flight times and also timing of the evening departure. There simply no time/need for multiple meal service when people want to most often sleep.

I didn't mind the abridged version or the lack of multiple meal service, but two things stuck out:
- the awful jalebi/doughnut desert, that I've had on every TK flight to India since 2012; surely they can offer another option in J.
- the Y class blanket. Its simply not long enough to cover a person. Either your feet get cold, or your chest does. I thought the pillow quality on the midhaul J was quite alright.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 8): The only things I tend to buy at IST now are local products such as traditional sweets if I have not already got them in downtown Istanbul.

Gone are the days of reasonably priced Turkish delight. The prices at the airport were remarkably high compared to the price I was paying for then in the city earlier this year.

In regards to IST shopping experience -

IST is like most other airports around the world awards a single large vendor a long term concession rights to operate all the retail and food establishments. Then this vendor goes out and recruits individual tenants to man the retail space.

As part of the concession the vendor must generate certain minimum earnings in rent and gross sales each year to remit to the airport operator as part of the the concession contract.

The operator of IST is a company called ATU which is a joint 50-50 Turkish/German joint venture which also manages other airport retail operations in Turkey, and airports in places like Tunisia, Saudi Arabia, Georgia, Latvia, Oman, etc..

One of the biggest drivers of airport retail is convenience, not price. Its been well shown people will pay more for the convenience of single roof airport shopping.

Also might be interesting to note in 2013 there were some adjustments and renovations made to type of stores and goods offered for sale based on study of demographics and traveler needs at IST. Much of the retail operation was refocused on premium products which luxury conscious Asians, Russians and Arabs gravitated to as these travelers already were the highest revenue clients at the airport.
In 2014 the biggest revenue producing products at the airport were - fashion and accessories, beauty products, spirits and tobacco plus confectionery.
With the 2013 refocus, sales per square meter rose 19% year over year.

So all the 77Ws have been reconfigured without Comfort Class now ?

The777Man

Quoting The777Man (Reply 13): So all the 77Ws have been reconfigured without Comfort Class now ?

Not yet. All the new deliveries are arriving without CC, but 12 original frames still have CC.

You can tell the models apart with new arrivals using the 77B code, while the 12 originals use 77C.

There will be a transition point (date not decided yet) where CC cabins will be sold as regular Y class as aircraft refits commence.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 14): Not yet. All the new deliveries are arriving without CC, but 12 original frames still have CC. You can tell the models apart with new arrivals using the 77B code, while the 12 originals use 77C. There will be a transition point (date not decided yet) where CC cabins will be sold as regular Y class as aircraft refits commence.

Is there a date yet for the transition to be completed ?

The777Man

It will be based on maintenance needs and how much money they are willing to spend to yank the cabins out early.

Based strictly maintenance checks the aircraft are due for heavy maintenance where cabin refits can be easily accomplished between second half of 2015 through 2017.

At some point they will need to decide to spend money and schedule the aircraft in sooner to ensure a more unified configuration.

Also part of the complicating factor is TK is working on a new premium seat product, and also seeks to install its home built seats in Y class, but those wont be certified on the widebody fleet for a couple of years after 737 installs are done. Plus TK signed for a new fiberoptic IFE backbone from Lumexis which is first going into the 330s.

All these things need to be lined up. So lots of moving pieces...

Hello and happy November to all....

In just 2 days time, I am off to my longest nonstop flight... IST-LAX and returning after a 10 day trip...

I could have booked 2-3 stops for much less on LH/UA but figured my comfort was more important on such a long flight  

I reserved seat 23G on the outbound. Exit seat in the middle row/aisle... I know the armrest do not move but I will have extra seat pitch and no one reclining his seat on my face  

During check in at IST, I will see if I can get the 300 USD deal to upgrade to Comfort...

Will fill you in on the experience once I get back....

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 17): I reserved seat 23G on the outbound.

Ouch!
I can tell you with almost certainty that you will have screaming babies next to you in that row. You know that, that is a baby bassinet row and there will be babies....worse, their parents next to you.
Upgrade to Comfort is now $350 ( my last experience) and still the first row have a huge chance of being filled with babies.
I suggest row 18/ row 19. I had a 5 year old boy out of control the whole flight on row 18 my last flight.
I kept the noise cancelling headphones and avoided eye contact.

Bon Voyage.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 16): Plus TK signed for a new fiberoptic IFE backbone from Lumexis which is first going into the 330s

Can you tell more about the Lumexis deal? What kind of product are they aiming for? Is it just a wifi version of IFE, so that people can access content from smartphones or a full IFE installation?

I know that TC-JNF got a Lumexis installation and JNG is the next one to get it soon too. So I would really be interested to understand the idea of TK, since they also recently were talking about a turkish joint venture with Havelsan to co-produce IFE systems to be installed on 737s.

Quoting TK787 (Reply 18): I can tell you with almost certainty that you will have screaming babies next to you in that row. You know that, that is a baby bassinet row and there will be babies....worse, their parents next to you.

This is an exit row not a bulkhead row.. I don't think they will have baby bassinets on this row. To my best knowledge, the bassinets are located at the front of the second economy cabin...

Quoting TurkishWings (Reply 20): I don't think they will have baby bassinets on this row.

I know you know this better than me having worked at TK.
Just my two cents.
I will never risk sitting those rows for extra leg room, knowing there will be babies on that plane on a 13 hour flight.
Last month my wife flew IST-JFK first row of Comfort, (seat 11D), with 3 babies and two moms on that same row.
Good Luck and have a safe flight.

Seems like the 3 leased 9W B77W have left TK's fleet, the number of B77Ws down to 15 now.

Quoting Turkish777X (Reply 19): Can you tell more about the Lumexis deal? What kind of product are they aiming for? Is it just a wifi version of IFE, so that people can access content from smartphones or a full IFE installation?

Lumexis is offering fiber backbone system. Basically replace all the heavier traditional table with light weight fiber cabling throughout the cabin. The fiber will allow much higher data rates including allowing up to HD quality assuming you have appropriate seatback monitors.
Initially new A330s will come equipped with the new fiber cabling with 777 being refitted in the future.

This will primarily be weight and maintenance cost savings effort, along with future proofing for new IFE technologies. Something scalable for the future.

For the IFE itself - TK earlier this year selected Thales for IFE for 45 future narrowbodies. This was unique as TK is one of the first airlines that will adopt IFE system based on off the shelf Android operating system - and not some proprietary custom vendor software that is often outdated before fleet refits are complete.

Hi guys. Does anyone have information about the largest foreign carriers in Turkey. I need numbers like passengers carried or number of flights.

I can give you marketshares.

For 2013 top foreign carriers were:
Condor - 1.8%
Air Berlin- 1.6%
TUI - 1.2%

Overall about 75% market share belongs to Turkish carriers with TK about 50% of the pie.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25): Condor - 1.8% Air Berlin- 1.6% TUI - 1.2%

wow, thanks LAXintl. I thought Lufthansa would be in the top 3. Do you also have information as to where LH, BA, EK stand?

Just flew QR IST to DOH and I really wonder from where the 5 stars come from. The food was not even close to Do&Co quality even though Do&Co has gone down with the years. Moreover, the crews are like robots and the Business Class seat is also not industry standard (A333). From my perspective TK could easily match QR which for me means that both are rather 4 stars.

IST is a real madhouse at the moment! It is a pain to travel through and I can only suggest to everyone to avoid it whenever they can. It is simply overcrowded!

On a sidenote, SAW depending on the time is even worse. Travelled through on Friday evening (19:30 - 21:00) and I almost missed my intl to domestic transfer (PC to PC on one ticket). The bags didnt make it and I could pick them up in SAW yesterday. I think on Friday I saw the longest immigration line in my lifetime worldwide.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 16): It will be based on maintenance needs and how much money they are willing to spend to yank the cabins out early. Based strictly maintenance checks the aircraft are due for heavy maintenance where cabin refits can be easily accomplished between second half of 2015 through 2017. At some point they will need to decide to spend money and schedule the aircraft in sooner to ensure a more unified configuration. Also part of the complicating factor is TK is working on a new premium seat product, and also seeks to install its home built seats in Y class, but those wont be certified on the widebody fleet for a couple of years after 737 installs are done. Plus TK signed for a new fiberoptic IFE backbone from Lumexis which is first going into the 330s. All these things need to be lined up. So lots of moving pieces...

Thanks for the explanation !

I guess we'll see what happens. It seems waiting for heavy maintenance may take quite a while for reconfiguration to be complete.

It seems they should certify the new Y seat for the 77Ws first and do the reconfiguration at the same time as installing the new Y seats.

Thanks!

The777Man

I am following for quite some time the deployment of A332s, which came from TAM earlier this year. Those birds, visible as 33A in their reservation system, have a very high numer of J seats in their cabin (40J) and are deployed to sooo many places where they obviously can not fill the J cabin.

One would rather think that they need a smaller cabin instead of sending an A332 with only about 220 seats to places such as Lahore and Kathmandu. This evenings Stockholm flight is oversold in Y and almost fully empty in J as far as my observation goes (to be operated by 33A). I am following this for many weeks if not months and this is consistently the case for them. I would rather keep the ex 9W birds in a premium heavy configuration with 30J and send them to places like DXB and RUH, where they can place their J product more successfully and convert the remainder (especially TAM birds) to something like 24J and 250Y.

Do you think they earn money with such large J cabins which fly empty or what is the rational behind leasing such birds?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25): For 2013 top foreign carriers were: Condor - 1.8% Air Berlin- 1.6% TUI - 1.2%

One often forgets how massive a tourist market Turkey is and the volume of flights offered directly by carriers to beach markets since generally all we speak about is Istanbul and its hub operation.

Thanks for posting.

Quoting Northstar80 (Reply 26): I thought Lufthansa would be in the top 3. Do you also have information as to where LH, BA, EK stand?

LH while biggest is still tiny. Remember during 2013 Turkey had almost 150mil passengers. LH only had about 385k - barely quarter of percent marketshare.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 30): One often forgets how massive a tourist market Turkey is and the volume of flights offered directly by carriers to beach markets since generally all we speak about is Istanbul and its hub operation.

  

Second busiest airport in Turkey is not SAW, ESB or ADB. Its AYT with over 27mil enplanements.
There were some 50 airports with commercial activity in 2013, and many with quite respectable international volume.

SAS (SK) is to launch direct services from Copenhagen and Stockholm to Ankara in 2015
eff 04APR15 Copenhagen – Ankara 1 weekly (Day 6), 3 weekly (Day 136) during peak season
eff 30JUN15 Stockholm – Ankara 1 weekly (Day 2)
CPH ESB will be a year round service

TK operates direct services from ESB to CPH and ARN during peak summer months as well as Pegasus.

Let's hope AF, BA, AZ and KL will return to ESB soon as transit through IST is very painful if you are not on a TK to TK connection

Hello Guys!

Bringing up another point, have we got any updates on the name of the third Istanbul airport? There was a lot of bickering at one point, but all has gone quiet. Is there an official 'release' date that we are waiting for? What institution will decide upon its name, and with what method will they come to a conclusion?

TK773

I guess the name of the airport will be officially declared close to the opening ceremonies,


Ministry of Economy declared the price of the new Presidential A330 to be 185 Million USD including the cost of refurbishment. I can not judge if the price is normal for a private A330 ? what would be the norm ?

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/ekonomi/27519229.asp

New pax numbers for Turkey released.
12 months data Nov13-Oct14
IST: 55,933,887
SAW: 23,047,905
Istanbul total > 78,981,792

I have a question regarding the leased A330-200s.
Are they all still equipped with former owners' seat?

TC-JIL / M / N = Jet Airways herringbone flat in J?
TC-JIO / P / R / S / T = TAM's? (not sure what is it like)
TC-JNF / G = Qatar very old J? (not sure what is it like)
TC-JNV = Gulf Air's? (not sure what is it like)

Where are the main destinations for these 330-200s?
Or they can pop up anywhere?

[quote=Turkish350XWB,reply=35]New pax numbers for Turkey released.
12 months data Nov13-Oct14
IST: 55,933,887
SAW: 23,047,905
Istanbul total > 78,981,792

That's amazing numbers. On another note looks like the latest and last 77W for this year TC-JJU is taking shape and should be joining TK's fleet sometime in December here is a photo http://paineairport.com/kpae10763.htm

Quoting nethkt (Reply 36): TC-JIL / M / N = Jet Airways herringbone flat in J?

Yes exactly the same seat with no changes made.

Quoting nethkt (Reply 36): TC-JIO / P / R / S / T = TAM's? (not sure what is it like)

Same as before (TAM configuration) with 4F sold as J, which are lie flat and on top of that 36J seats (angle lie flat). Exact layout can be found here. These birds are denoted as 33A in the reservation sytem.
http://www.seatmaestro.com/airplanes.../tam-airlines-airbus-a330-200.html

TC-JNF / G = Qatar very old J? (not sure what is it like)
True for G but F got a new cabin a few months ago. JNF is denoted as 33R in the system, while G is still showing as A330-200

TC-JNV = Gulf Air's? (not sure what is it like)
True, ex Gulf cabin with old interior, denoted as 3GF in the system.

Quoting LLA001 (Reply 34): Ministry of Economy declared the price of the new Presidential A330 to be 185 Million USD including the cost of refurbishment. I can not judge if the price is normal for a private A330 ? what would be the norm ?

The price is not normal for a country where half of the workers are making $400/month.

On a different note, I am still very skeptical about the financing on the 3rd Istanbul airport. The Cukurova Airport that has been under construction for some time is having financing issues. That is not even close to the size of the 3rd airport.

Some weeks ago when I looked for flights to Turkey, I saw Lufthansa to have only two dailies MUC-IST. They indeed canceld the third flight. I thought they will shift the slots to FRA but this does not happen too.

I wonder if Lufthansa Groupes decision to end Codeshare Agreement with Turkish Airlines was clever?
LH dropped one MUC-IST rotation
OS/VO stopped VIE-IST
LX reduced to one daily ZRH-IST

I have note posted TK fleet list for a few months. Here is latest

A/C REG / TYPE / CODE / MSN / SEATS
TC-JDK A340-312 342 25 270
TC-JDL A340-311 343 57 270
TC-JDM A340-311 343 115 270
TC-JDN A340-313 340 180 270
TC-JIH A340-313 340 270 270
TC-JII A340-313 340 331 270
TC-JNA A330-203 332 697 250
TC-JNB A330-203 332 704 250
TC-JNC A330-203 332 742 250
TC-JND A330-203 332 754 250
TC-JNE A330-203 332 774 250
TC-JNF A330-203 33R 463 281
TC-JNG A330-203 33Q 504 281
TC-JNV A330-243 3GF 529 272
TC-JIL A330-202 33J 882 220
TC-JIM A330-202 33J 901 220
TC-JIN A330-202 33J 932 220
TC-JIO A330-223 33A 869 223
TC-JIP A330-223 33A 876 223
TC-JIR A330-223 33A 949 223
TC-JIS A330-223 33A 961 223
TC-JIT A330-223 33A 977 223
TC-JNH A330-343 333 1150 289
TC-JNI A330-343 333 1160 289
TC-JNJ A330-343 333 1170 289
TC-JNK A330-343 333 1172 289
TC-JNL A330-343 333 1204 289
TC-JNM A330-343 333 1212 289
TC-JNN A330-343 333 1228 289
TC-JNO A330-343 333 1298 289
TC-JNP A330-343 333 1307 289
TC-JNR A330-343 333 1311 289
TC-JNS A330-303 333 1458 289
TC-JNT A330-303 333 1476 289
TC-JNZ A330-303 333 1487 289
TC-JOA A330-303 333 1501 289
TC-JOB A330-303 333 1514 289
TC-JOC A330-303 333 1522 289
TC-JOD A330-303 333 1529 289
TC-JDO A330-243F 33X 1004 Freighter
TC-JDP A330-243F 33Y 1092 Freighter
TC-JDR A330-243F 33Y 1344 Freighter
TC-JDS A330-243F 33Y 1418 Freighter
TC-JCI A330-243F 33Y 1442 Freighter
TC-JCY A310-304F 31Y 478 Freighter
TC-JCZ A310-304F 31Y 480 Freighter
TC-JLM A319-132 319 2738 132
TC-JLN A319-132 319 2739 132
TC-JLO A319-132 319 2631 132
TC-JLP A319-132 319 2655 132
TC-JLR A319-132 319 3142 132
TC-JLS A319-132 316 4629 132
TC-JLT A319-132 316 4665 132
TC-JLU A319-132 316 4695 132
TC-JLV A319-132 316 4755 132
TC-JLY A319-132 316 4774 132
TC-JLZ A319-132 316 4790 132
TC-JUA A319-132 31H 2404 132
TC-JUB A319-132 31H 2414 132
TC-JUD A319-132 31H 2452 132
TC-JLJ A320-232 32L 1856 162
TC-JLK A320-232 32L 1909 162
TC-JLL A320-232 32E 1996 167
TC-JPA A320-232 320 2609 159
TC-JPB A320-232 320 2626 159
TC-JPC A320-232 320 2928 159
TC-JPD A320-232 320 2934 159
TC-JPE A320-232 320 2941 159
TC-JPF A320-232 320 2984 159
TC-JPG A320-232 320 3010 159
TC-JPH A320-232 320 3185 159
TC-JPI A320-232 320 3208 159
TC-JPJ A320-232 320 3239 159
TC-JPK A320-232 320 3257 159
TC-JPL A320-232 320 3303 159
TC-JPM A320-232 320 3341 159
TC-JPN A320-232 320 3558 159
TC-JPO A320-232 320 3567 159
TC-JPP A320-232 320 3603 159
TC-JPR A320-232 320 3654 159
TC-JPS A320-232 320 3718 159
TC-JPT A320-232 320 3719 159
TC-JPU A320-214 32C 3896 150
TC-JPV A320-214 32C 3931 150
TC-JPY A320-214 32C 3949 150
TC-JAI A320-232 32G 3259 150
TC-JBI A320-232 32G 3308 150
TC-JUE A320-232 32P 2156 162
TC-JUF A320-232 32P 2164 162
TC-JUG A320-232 32P 2395 162
TC-JUI A320-232 32P 2401 162
TC-JUJ A320-232 32D 2522 150
TC-JUK A320-232 32P 2602 162
TC-JRA A321-231 321 2823 194
TC-JRB A321-231 321 2868 194
TC-JRC A321-231 321 2999 194
TC-JRD A321-231 321 3015 194
TC-JRE A321-231 321 3126 194
TC-JRF A321-231 321 3207 194
TC-JRG A321-231 321 3283 194
TC-JRH A321-231 321 3350 194
TC-JRI A321-231 321 3405 194
TC-JRJ A321-231 321 3429 194
TC-JRK A321-231 321 3525 194
TC-JRL A321-231 321 3539 194
TC-JRM A321-231 32R 4643 180
TC-JRN A321-231 32R 4654 180
TC-JRO A321-231 32R 4682 180
TC-JRP A321-231 32R 4698 180
TC-JRR A321-231 32R 4706 180
TC-JRS A321-231 32R 4761 180
TC-JRT A321-231 32R 4779 180
TC-JRU A321-231 32R 4788 180
TC-JRV A321-231 32R 5077 180
TC-JRY A321-231 32R 5083 180
TC-JRZ A321-231 32R 5118 180
TC-JSA A321-231 32R 5154 180
TC-JSB A321-231 32R 5205 180
TC-JSC A321-231 32R 5254 180
TC-JSD A321-231 32R 5388 180
TC-JSE A321-231 32R 5450 180
TC-JSF A321-231 32R 5465 180
TC-JSG A321-231 32R 5490 180
TC-JSH A321-231 32R 5546 180
TC-JSI A321-231 32R 5584 180
TC-JSJ A321-231 32R 5633 180
TC-JSK A321-231 32R 5663 180
TC-JSL A321-231 32R 5667 180
TC-JSM A321-231 32R 5689 180
TC-JMM A321-231 32B 2916 151
TC-JMN A321-231 32B 2919 151
TC-JMH A321-231 32U 3637 178
TC-JMI A321-231 32U 3673 178
TC-JMJ A321-232 32N 3688 178
TC-JMK A321-232 32N 3738 178
TC-JML A321-231 32J 3382 194
TC-JFH B737-800W 738 29770 165
TC-JFI B737-800W 738 29771 165
TC-JFJ B737-800W 738 29772 165
TC-JFK B737-800W 738 29773 165
TC-JFN B737-800W 738 29776 165
TC-JFO B737-800W 738 29777 165
TC-JFR B737-800W 738 29779 165
TC-JFT B737-800W 738 29780 165
TC-JFU B737-800W 738 29781 165
TC-JFV B737-800W 738 29782 165
TC-JFY B737-800W 78G 29783 165
TC-JFZ B737-800W 738 29784 165
TC-JGA B737-800W 738 29785 165
TC-JGB B737-800W 738 29786 165
TC-JGC B737-800W 738 29787 165
TC-JGD B737-800W 738 29788 165
TC-JGF B737-800W 738 29790 165
TC-JGG B737-800W 738 34405 165
TC-JGH B737-800W 738 34406 165
TC-JGI B737-800W 738 34407 165
TC-JGJ B737-800W 738 34408 165
TC-JGK B737-800W 738 34409 165
TC-JGL B737-800W 738 34410 165
TC-JGM B737-800W 738 34411 165
TC-JGN B737-800W 738 34412 165
TC-JGO B737-800W 738 34413 165
TC-JGP B737-800W 738 34414 165
TC-JGR B737-800W 738 34415 165
TC-JGS B737-800W 738 34416 165
TC-JGT B737-800W 738 34417 165
TC-JGU B737-800W 738 34418 165
TC-JGV B737-800W 738 34419 165
TC-JGY B737-800WSFP 738 35738 165
TC-JGZ B737-800WSFP 738 35739 165
TC-JHA B737-800WSFP 738 35740 165
TC-JHB B737-800WSFP 738 35741 165
TC-JHC B737-800WSFP 738 35742 165
TC-JHD B737-800WSFP 738 35743 165
TC-JHE B737-800WSFP 738 35744 165
TC-JHF B737-800WSFP 738 35745 165
TC-JHK B737-800WSFP 78D 40975 151
TC-JHL B737-800WSFP 78D 40976 151
TC-JHM B737-800WSFP 78D 40980 151
TC-JHN B737-800WSFP 78D 40981 151
TC-JHO B737-800WSFP 78D 40987 151
TC-JHP B737-800WSFP 78D 42000 151
TC-JHR B737-800WSFP 78D 40989 151
TC-JHS B737-800WSFP 78D 40991 151
TC-JHT B737-800WSFP 78D 42001 151
TC-JHU B737-800WSFP 78D 42002 151
TC-JHV B737-800WSFP 78D 40992 151
TC-JHY B737-800WSFP 78D 42003 151
TC-JHZ B737-800WSFP 78D 42004 151
TC-JVA B737-800WSFP 78D 40988 151
TC-JVB B737-800WSFP 78D 40990 151
TC-JVC B737-800WSFP 78D 42005 151
TC-JVD B737-800WSFP 78D 42007 151
TC-JVE B737-800WSFP 78D 42006 151
TC-JVF B737-800WSFP 78D 42008 151
TC-JVG B737-800WSFP 78D 42009 151
TC-JYA B737-900ER 79B 40973 151
TC-JYB B737-900ER 79B 40974 151
TC-JYC B737-900ER 79B 40977 151
TC-JYD B737-900ER 79B 40978 151
TC-JYE B737-900ER 79B 40979 151
TC-JYF B737-900ER 79B 40982 151
TC-JYG B737-900ER 79B 40983 151
TC-JYH B737-900ER 79B 40984 151
TC-JYI B737-900ER 79B 40985 151
TC-JYJ B737-900ER 79B 40986 151
TC-JKJ B737-700W 73W 34297 124
TC-JKK B737-700W 73W 34298 124
TC-JKO B737-700W 73W 34300 124
TC-JJE B777-300ER 77C 40707 337
TC-JJF B777-300ER 77C 40708 337
TC-JJG B777-300ER 77C 40791 337
TC-JJH B777-300ER 77C 40792 337
TC-JJI B777-300ER 77C 40709 337
TC-JJJ B777-300ER 77C 40710 337
TC-JJK B777-300ER 77C 40711 337
TC-JJL B777-300ER 77C 40793 337
TC-JJM B777-300ER 77C 40794 337
TC-JJN B777-300ER 77C 40795 337
TC-JJO B777-300ER 77C 40796 337
TC-JJP B777-300ER 77C 40797 337
TC-JJR B777-300ER 77B 44116 349
TC-JJS B777-300ER 77B 44117 349
TC-JJT B777-300ER 77B 44118 349

=

Also I dont know if anyone has noticed, but for several months now TK is in process of bringing Row-13 back in the cabin.

So far following aircraft have been refit:
A319 - JLR,JLS,JLT,JLV
A320 - JLJ,JPB,JPC,JPF,JPN,JPR,JPS,JPT,JPU
A321 - JMH,JMI,JMJ,JMK, JSF,JSG,JSJ,JSL,JSM, JRC,RD,RE,RL,RO,RP,RR,RS,RV,RY,RZ
A333 - JNH,JNL,JNN,JNP,JNR,JNS
A340 - JDM
B77W - JJF,JJK,JJL

Quoting tkfan (Reply 40): I wonder if Lufthansa Groupes decision to end Codeshare Agreement with Turkish Airlines was clever?

Not for their Turkey routes, but they felt they had to do something to stop their home county clients for giving TK money while still earning M&M benefits and points.

Lets see if things change with a new CEO at LH, and if TK agrees to utilize Sun Express for LH longhaul LCC experiment.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 41): Also I dont know if anyone has noticed, but for several months now TK is in process of bringing Row-13 back in the cabin. So far following aircraft have been refit: A319 - JLR,JLS,JLT,JLV A320 - JLJ,JPB,JPC,JPF,JPN,JPR,JPS,JPT,JPU A321 - JMH,JMI,JMJ,JMK, JSF,JSG,JSJ,JSL,JSM, JRC,RD,RE,RL,RO,RP,RR,RS,RV,RY,RZ A333 - JNH,JNL,JNN,JNP,JNR,JNS A340 - JDM B77W - JJF,JJK,JJL

Their latest deliveries have row 13 too. Especially the new A333s caused a lot of confussion on my side and some others since those already end at row 40 and not 41 as before.

Weird move by them, since it just costs money and is a waste of time of changing all the numbers in the aircraft. However, they at least do it consistently and more rigorously as compared to other issues

By the way, deliveries of their 737-800s from JVD onwards have their own turkish made seats installed, as far as I know. Did anyone have the chance to test the product, especially with respect to how they integrated the IFE into the seats?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 41): Quoting tkfan (Reply 40): I wonder if Lufthansa Groupes decision to end Codeshare Agreement with Turkish Airlines was clever? Not for their Turkey routes, but they felt they had to do something to stop their home county clients for giving TK money while still earning M&M benefits and points.

Cutting the Miles earned on other carriers would be enough. The whole codeshare agreement was weired limiting it only to/from DUS, FRA and MUC. No wonder they lost their customers in secondary stations like HAM, TXL, STR etc.

I know a lot of people who either joined Turkish Airlines' Miles&Smiles too or quit Miles&More entirely (at least they dont use it that much).

Do you know how many members Miles&Smiles has in Germany and how it has developed in recent years?

Quoting tkfan (Reply 40): Some weeks ago when I looked for flights to Turkey, I saw Lufthansa to have only two dailies MUC-IST. They indeed canceld the third flight. I thought they will shift the slots to FRA but this does not happen too. I wonder if Lufthansa Groupes decision to end Codeshare Agreement with Turkish Airlines was clever? LH dropped one MUC-IST rotation OS/VO stopped VIE-IST LX reduced to one daily ZRH-IST

I've made dummy bookings for both Lufty and Swiss; I haven't realised any change. MUC is 3 dailies, ZRH is 2. Maybe it2s a seasonal decrease in frequency. The dates I checked were in May.

On another note, I am very pleased by the growth of TK over the years, but don't you think our non-stop options on foreign carriers wither away slowly. IST can't support a Delta or United flight (at least yearly for Delta) or a MXP from AZ etc. I fear for the further decrease that might come. Maybe the new airport will change this, I am not sure. I don't think Delta had a slot problem. What do you think?

Quoting boun (Reply 45):

Its for the winter season. OS will return in summer and MUC again 3 daily, ZRH 2-3 daily.

I am sure when the new airport opens it will turn ti a mega hub. Not only for TK and Star Alliance but also for the other alliances.

Quoting boun (Reply 45):

Mainline European carriers lost a lot of pax from Turkey due to TK's enormous worldwide expansion. Non Star Alliance carriers are hurt more like BA, AF, KL etc. However Turkey's overall popularity as a business andor tourist destination keeps them busy for flying pax from their home countries as well as feeding from their global network. LH today controls LX, OS, SK and in fact trying to make sure each carrier does not compose competition for LH expansion most particularly ex-MUC. I am sure if SR and SN existed today and OS would not be possessed by LH we would see a different situation as these carriers are quite old time players in Turkey and had operated scheduled services from mid 50'ies from IST as wall as ESB and ADB for some of those as well. ESB is a great case study for how LH expansion see ESB LHR by BD, ESB VIE by OS, ESB BRU by SN suspended and ESB ZRH was not reinstated after SR went bust. Today ESB MUCH flies over 87% transit pax from ESB to overall LH global network. The ratio was around 60% 10 years ago so LH stole all transit pax form these operators set aside the huge TK factor that just made the overall Turkish market very hard for them to survive. IST is going to be a tough market for these operators as they I am sure they are aware of the fact that old days are gone and Turkish market now relies on TK to a greater extent and then the other Turkish operators. BA was a shareholder in THY as the company was set up and this was repossessed in 70'ies back to Turkish Treasury, early move did not last for long but caused TK to operate 4 Vicounts in 50'ies but I am sure BA would be very pleased to maintain their position with TK today. I in fact think TK would do better joining One World than Star Alliance as LH and today's TK are too much on the same side of the street that will cause a problem later on. When new Istanbul Airport opens and will start hurting FRA more this will cause a greater worry for LH eventually as their calculations historically were always based on a poor and dependant Turkey not a monster as it is set to become, so good luck to all European players with their aging population. old infrastructure, restrictive legislation to operate flights on a 24 hours basis etc.

Quoting tkfan (Reply 44): Cutting the Miles earned on other carriers would be enough. The whole codeshare agreement was weired limiting it only to/from DUS, FRA and MUC. No wonder they lost their customers in secondary stations like HAM, TXL, STR etc.

Part of the LH calculus was to deprive TK of money also. In 2012 for example LH and LX were the #2 and #3 top interline codeshare revenue generators for TK. (Borajet was #1)

Quoting tkfan (Reply 44): Do you know how many members Miles&Smiles has in Germany and how it has developed in recent years?

Last I saw it was about 110,000 though I am sure its grown very fast in the last year since events with LH. M&S membership has growing 15-20% annually for a few years, with now over 4 million members.
I know Germany, US and UK are largest markets outside of Turkey for members.