YYC Being Overbuilt?

chrisp390 · Sat Nov 22, 2014 2:41 am

Why did LH cease the route to AC?

aerolimani · Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:28 am

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 97):
LH used to fly to YYC and then left, anyone know why that wasn't working out for them?

I could be wrong, and I have no source, but I believe LH was trying to market Calgary (to Germans) as a tourist destination. LH offered flight times which better suited the Europeans than AC. I assume they thought they could drum up enough business for both carriers to make a go of it. I guess it didn't work out. I don't have any official load numbers, but the two times I flew YYC - FRA with LH, the loads on those A340s were pretty light. Anybody who wanted one could have a window seat in Y with no seatmate next to them. I remember thinking it was strange that there was no individual IFE with LH, versus AC's A333s.

Just for fun, here's a video of an LH A340 coming for a landing on YYC's runway 28, on a day with winds approaching 150 km/h! http://youtu.be/mneDbYYHfGM

cyeg66 · Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:50 am

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 100):

Why did LH cease the route to AC?

They didn't necessarily cede the route to AC, simply returned it to its rightful owner. AC had been operating the A333 to FRA for quite some time when seemingly unexpectedly, LH announced FRA-YYC using front section seating-heavy A333 equipment. Unsurprisingly, virtually increasing capacity 100% overnight did not 'yield' great results, thus the subsequent move to the more Y-focused A343 equipment, while AC downgauged to B763. Where a B763 may have cut the mustard, if only LH had something of that size in their fleet, their Airbuses were simply too big. Consequently, with too many seats introduced so quickly, and the FRA flight times separated by only a few hours, the route was destined to "not meet expectations".

I would like to see LH re-enter the fray with a MUC flight, perhaps seasonally to start with and with smaller equipment, but this may be a pipe dream and would likely not happen for another 10+ years. Bu who knows? They surprised us with the FRA flight some years back. Maybe they're just crazy enough to give it a go someday sooner.

YVRLTN · Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:30 am

As originally coming from London England, I find it refreshing the powers that be encourage airport expansion in a pro-active manner. Let LHR & LGW be a lesson if you do not, you lose the traffic you did have.

I think the UAE bi-lateral will be adjusted within the lifespan of the A380 and I would not be surprised to see a YVR-YYC-DXB route in the distant future. That being said I cant see any A380 in YVR's near future, let alone YYC's.

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 100):
Why did LH cease the route to AC?

They handed it over to AC to operate as a Star codeshare flight and opened their own new seasonal flight from MUC to YVR instead.

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 96):
Actually I quite like Banff. I am merely pointing out I doubt people from China and Japan will fly 10+ hours (+ 2/3 hours of driving) to get there when there are no major hotels

I actually dislike Banff, but your claim is not true because they do. And right through to Lake Louise. The last time I was there, I am not kidding, there were at least 50 full size buses and it sure seemed like the majority of the occupants were from Asia.

Quoting cyeg66 (Reply 95):
I find it amusing that a larger proportion of flights to/from YVR are in the RJ-class (and smaller) size categories than they are from YYC

This is also true with the new influx of flights from DL and the new AA LAX flight. Jazz CRJ's are being replaced with Q400's and a lot of AC A32S is getting replaced with the 190, certainly the hourly YYC shuttle except at certain peak times. Bizarre trivia, no E145 operators at YVR...

c172akula · Sat Nov 22, 2014 3:55 pm

Quoting aerolimani (Reply 101):
Just for fun, here's a video of an LH A340 coming for a landing on YYC's runway 28, on a day with winds approaching 150 km/h! http://youtu.be/mneDbYYHfGM

That day was INSANE. It was definitely not every day at YYC you would see the airliners also opting to land on what was then runway 25 (length 6200'), that wind was right down the pipe on it.

I flew LH on the FRA route 3 times up in business class, loads up there were definitely light. However economy always looked to be packed, and usually with lots of folks connecting onwards to India. Of course people paying the cheapest fare in the back don't keep the route going. I was sad to see them go, always loved the LH service up front and from a spotters perspective we lost another unique tail around YYC.

SLCUT2777 · Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:04 pm

This thread reminds me of an Oilers vs. Flames NHL game. Let the gloves drop and the fistcuffs start!

Nothing beats the Alberta Civil War! YYC vs. YEG.

Viscount724 · Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:49 am

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 99):
Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 97):

Air Canada currently flies 77L and 77W (summer) to Frankfurt. They codeshare with Lufthansa.

It's much more than a codeshare. AC and LH are part of the revenue-sharing Atlantic++ joint venture involving all members of the LH Group (LH/LX/OS/SN) plus AC and UA.
http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/company/alliances/joint-ventures.html

Viscount724 · Sun Nov 23, 2014 1:54 am

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 88):
Oh yeah, you can have a unique rodeo experience in sub-zero temperature

What are you referring to? The Calgary Stampede is in July.

CPA62 · Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:30 pm

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 90):
I have also lived in your hometown, and as beautiful as it is, cold rain for 30 days straight, and the city shutting down when 5cm of snow is forecasted is no picnic either. Not to mention the housing prices, taxes, and gas prices

I lived in your town for 6 years now. I have yet to see 30 days of straight rain? but I have seen 30 days of no rain. Also lived in Calgary and I have seen snow almost every month of the year and freezing cold into May. Calgary is a great place but I will take the rain thank you.

pnwtraveler · Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:29 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 106):
Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 99):
Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 97):

Air Canada currently flies 77L and 77W (summer) to Frankfurt. They codeshare with Lufthansa.

It's much more than a codeshare. AC and LH are part of the revenue-sharing Atlantic++ joint venture involving all members of the LH Group (LH/LX/OS/SN) plus AC and UA.
http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/company/alliances/joint-ventures.html

They can seamlessly sell tickets on each others flights and then share the profits. It doesn't matter who's metal is being used. There are some proposing that AC will downgrade YYZ to FRA to a 788 and LH will put their YYZ to FRA up to a 748i. I don't think so as the number of higher priced seats will be much higher and I am not sure that is where the market is spending. No sense sending in a bigger plane with more F and J and then have them filled with FF's on upgrade or points flights.

So LH doesn't need a flight if volume only fills one aircraft with spillage through YVR or YYZ. You might see an LH flight to Munich or Dusseldorf before a second flight to FRA. Does the A333 have the legs? Or one of the 783? that are hanging around a bit longer? There is talk of a seasonal flight to Dusseldorf from YYZ so something more from YYC or YVR is possible and perhaps Munich.

opethfan · Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:12 am

Quoting CPA62 (Reply 108):

Give it a few posts and we'll start arguing about hockey :-/

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 109):
something more from YYC or YVR is possible and perhaps Munich.

There's already a seasonal MUC from YVR using an A333, so it definitely has the legs.

threepoint · Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:14 am

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 90):
I have flown WestJet countless times and have always found their economy seats to be smaller than AC's.

Which planes are you comparing? A WS 737 offers more seat pitch and width than its closest AC competitor, the A320.

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 90):
I have also lived in your hometown, and as beautiful as it is, cold rain for 30 days straight, and the city shutting down when 5cm of snow is forecasted is no picnic either. Not to mention the housing prices, taxes, and gas prices.

Methinks you haven't spent any time in Vancouver, apart from maybe a few random visits on wet days. If we want to exchange ill-informed stereotypes, there's plenty to say about Calgary. They may not be remotely accurate, but hey, why not spread 'em anyway?

Quoting aerolimani (Reply 92):
Offer me YYC to YUL on an E-Jet or a 737, and I will happily choose the E-Jet. To me, it's just as comfortable as a 737, with no middle seats, plus faster boarding and disembarkation. I realize that this is not "regional" usage of an E-Jet, but it makes my point, since the E-Jets are considered RJ's

I'll opt for the E190 over any narrowbody airlines in Canada too. I think that when discussing "RJ", many people, myself among them, refer literally to the Canadair RJ, which is by anybody's standards, a miserable little airplane in which to sit for longer then half an hour.

Quoting VCEflyboy (Reply 96):
Banff. I am merely pointing out I doubt people from China and Japan will fly 10+ hours (+ 2/3 hours of driving) to get there when there are no major hotels.

Doubt it all you like. Meanwhile, the area is awash with Japanese/Chinese tourists. Have you not seen the signs in Japanese in Banff? They ain't for the locals' benefit. By the way, YYC to Banff: about a 90 minute drive.

Quoting aerolimani (Reply 101):
a day with winds approaching 150 km/h!

Um, no. The prairie winds get fierce, but not hurricane fierce. With those speeds, you'd have seen a lot more debris and dust flying around in the video.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 103):
As originally coming from London England, I find it refreshing the powers that be encourage airport expansion in a pro-active manner. Let LHR & LGW be a lesson if you do not, you lose the traffic you did have.

If either London airport were located adjacent to miles of vacant prairie, they'd have built several more runways decades ago. But they aren't.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 107):
What are you referring to? The Calgary Stampede is in July.

Yes, and? Weather is likely to be freezing cold and miserable in Calgary in any month. Two days later, it can top 30C. But I'm not sure he was referring to the Stampede.

pnwtraveler · Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:28 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 111):
Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 90):
I have flown WestJet countless times and have always found their economy seats to be smaller than AC's.

Which planes are you comparing? A WS 737 offers more seat pitch and width than its closest AC competitor, the A320.

Well with their recent announcement in the last week or so that they are switching to slimline seats and considering adding another row to their 737 might make your comment soon out of date. I noticed that the WS public isn't squawking loudly. Boy do that on AC and you get pages upon pages of vitriol.

Viscount724 · Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:17 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 111):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 107):
What are you referring to? The Calgary Stampede is in July.

Yes, and? Weather is likely to be freezing cold and miserable in Calgary in any month.

I lived in YYC for 9 years and never encountered anything remotely approaching "freezing cold" weather in July.

YYC's weather can change quickly due to its location near the Rockies. I actually liked that as you never got bored with the weather. But in general I found the summers quite pleasant.

ac7e7 · Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:50 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 111):

Comparing 737s to A320s. I find Westjet's seats to be smaller and less comfortable.

Me knows I have lived in Vancouver, in addition to having lived and worked in most of Canada's major cities. I loved Vancouver and its beauty, however I find Calgary to be more prosperous and affordable.

Quoting pnwtraveler (Reply 112):

Agreed - however to date, I find the AC seats more comfortable. Westjet always gets a pass from the public over AC - look at the whole baggage fee fiasco. Even though Westjet announced the fee before AC, AC has been taking the heat in the media. When I watched the news reports, the reporters were always interviewing AC customers.

threepoint · Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:19 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 113):
I lived in YYC for 9 years and never encountered anything remotely approaching "freezing cold" weather in July.

Well, I've shoveled snow and de-iced airplane wings in Calgary in July, so there ya go. I agree that this is a rarity and that most of the summer is fine BBQ weather. We all know the new runway at YYC was built as long as it is to address the density altitude issues with hot summer days at 3600' MSL.

Quoting ac7e7 (Reply 114):
Comparing 737s to A320s. I find Westjet's seats to be smaller and less comfortable.

I can't speak to your comfort, but the two airlines share identical seat pitches on the aircraft in question (in the economy cabin) and WS seats are actually 0.7" wider than AC's.

longhauler · Tue Nov 25, 2014 4:38 am

Quoting threepoint (Reply 115):
I can't speak to your comfort, but the two airlines share identical seat pitches on the aircraft in question (in the economy cabin) and WS seats are actually 0.7" wider than AC's.

I see you are quoting SeatGuru ... a site notorious for inaccuracies.

A standard B737 seat is 17.2" wide. A standard A320 seat is 17.8 to 18" wide. It is physically impossible to put 6 18.5" wide seats in a B737 with a legal aisle width. The greater width of the A320 cabin will always win.

I am guessing that SeatGuru is getting it's information from WestJet, and it appears that WestJet is taking liberties with a tape measure!

Thenoflyzone · Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:18 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 103):
I think the UAE bi-lateral will be adjusted within the lifespan of the A380 and I would not be surprised to see a YVR-YYC-DXB route in the distant future. That being said I cant see any A380 in YVR's near future, let alone YYC's.

Canada is not know to renegociate bilaterals every few years. Assuming they do, they will what, double the number of flights per week, or maybe make it 14 round trips a week. In which case, you will have EK serving YYZ daily before they even attempt anything in the west coast.

And YVR-YYC-DXB will not be it. It's unlike EK to do one-stops, especially one that has no traffic rights.
They wouId probably start DXB-YVR non stop. There is not a large enough market for DXB-YYC.

Thenoflyzone

aerolimani · Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:00 pm

Quoting threepoint (Reply 111):
Um, no. The prairie winds get fierce, but not hurricane fierce. With those speeds, you'd have seen a lot more debris and dust flying around in the video.

Quoting the article below: "The winds exceeded what Environment Canada considers a Category 1 hurricane in a coastal city." To quote myself, I said "a day with winds approaching 150 km/h!" I didn't say the winds were blowing at 150 km/h as this plane landed. I don't have the METARs for the exact time of this video, but I can assure you, it was an exceptional day, in terms of wind speeds.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...trength-wind-storm/article4179499/

ac7e7 · Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:52 pm

I remember that day as well, and can confirm those wind speeds were ridiculous. Cellular equipment on one building I managed flew off. Luckily nobody was hurt.

toxtethogrady · Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:56 pm

Quoting edmountain (Thread starter):
So I'm sitting here in a mostly empty restaurant at YYC waiting for a flight and I'm reading about their expansion plans. I can't help but think it's being overbuilt.

Are you sure you didn't wander over here from SkyscraperPage.com?

threepoint · Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:36 pm

Quoting longhauler (Reply 116):
A standard B737 seat is 17.2" wide. A standard A320 seat is 17.8 to 18" wide. It is physically impossible to put 6 18.5" wide seats in a B737 with a legal aisle width.

I stand (or sit, wedged, in a standard economy seat) corrected. All I know is that my backside is lean enough to fit comfortably in either airplane; it's the seat pitch erosion that affects my comfort.

Quoting aerolimani (Reply 118):
Quoting the article below: "The winds exceeded what Environment Canada considers a Category 1 hurricane in a coastal city."

Again, I stand corrected. Not a very good day for me yesterday, in terms of factual credibility here. Better luck today perhaps.

Thanks gents.

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