Any word on the AA contract vote?

Rejected. By a total of 16 votes difference. Incredible!!!!!

It was voted down by 16 more votes! Out of 20,986 eligible voters, only 16,377 voted.

WOW. 16 votes. It has been circulated that this was their "best offer" and arbitration will not be kind to the flight attendants. Any thoughts on this? Also, when would the arbitration results be announced?

Is it true the ex TWA FA's were not allowed to vote?

Quoting compliancecheck (Reply 3): It has been circulated that this was their "best offer" and arbitration will not be kind to the flight attendants.

circulated by? oh.. the APFA and the company.. gotcha.
before "arbitration" results can be announced, there is mediation.. don't rush...

AA ORD

Quoting Aacun (Reply 1): Rejected. By a total of 16 votes difference. Incredible!!!!!

Good luck in binding arbitration, APFA. You're going to need it.

More disturbing is the fact that so many didn't even bother to vote at all.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 6): Good luck in binding arbitration, APFA. You're going to need it.

At worst case, the agreement gains $111 Million.. this was NOT a vote on a concessionary contract. $111 mil aint too shabby.
AA ORD

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 6): More disturbing is the fact that so many didn't even bother to vote at all.

And this trend is different how? what was the turnout for the November primary? Approx 78% of APFA fa's voted. Over 16,000 voted. 4000 did not. November primary turnout? less than 20% ... 78% turnout is impressive, in my opinion..

AA ORD

[Edited 2014-11-09 11:04:18]

[Edited 2014-11-09 11:05:54]

Doesn't sound good for the F/A's

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-1...defeat-for-airline.html?cmpid=yhoo

"The rejection will cost each flight attendant almost $17,000 in pay and benefits for each year of the five-year accord under arbitration terms set by a prior agreement with American, based on a union estimate. Attendants would have become the best paid in the U.S. industry. "

Quoting AA767400 (Reply 2): It was voted down by 16 more votes! Out of 20,986 eligible voters, only 16,377 voted.

Only? That is a very good turnout considering the apathy that can exist in the workforce.

Quoting anstar (Reply 4): Is it true the ex TWA FA's were not allowed to vote?

Yes. Most of them refuse to pay back dues so anyone who owed back dues to the union were not eligible to vote.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 5): circulated by? oh.. the APFA and the company.. gotcha. before "arbitration" results can be announced, there is mediation.. don't rush...

If you are an AA flight attendant, as I am, you are a perfect representative of the side that voted against. There is NO mediation. ZIP. ZILCH. ZERO. Instead of being paid the highest wages, getting an additional week of vacation, being paid more to work the first class cabin, receiving holiday pay..i could go on and on....you choose to make it a crapshoot with our careers and let a judge, who has no knowledge of our work rules, decide our future. In two years we could have made $63 an hour. Yep that's right. I am completely perplexed and completely amazed that so many people are living on another planet. Reality has changed folks. You have been duped by Facebook and it is an enormous tragedy.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 7): At worst case, the agreement gains $111 Million.. this was NOT a vote on a concessionary contract. $111 mil aint too shabby. AA ORD

Huh? The contract was worth $193 million. Now the max that arbitrator can give us is $111 million. You amaze me.

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 10): In two years we could have made $63 an hour

The vote is over.. I won't banter.. But, in two years we could have made what we were making OVER a decade ago. In two years, AA is projected to make 10 billion.. I won't settle. I'll tell you what voters during the LBFO told me.. If you don't like it, you have a choice. Suck it up.

AA ORD

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 11): Now the max that arbitrator can give us is $111 million. You amaze me

really? $111 million is still worth more than the contract we have today? get it? apparently not.. exercise your choice.

AA ORD

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 12): In two years, AA is projected to make 10 billion..

This may come as quite a shock to you, but arbitrators don't make decisions based on what the company is projected to make any more than mortgage companies would approve a college student for a $500,000 mortgage based on their projected earnings in a few years once they graduate.

These things are based on the here and now, and in the here and now for AA to offer an industry-leading contract that eclipses what even DL is paying - and for it to be rejected - will not work in APFA's favor during arbitration.

So if this agreement had such great benefits, why was it turned down? Any idea?

The Dallas Morning News broke down the vote by contingency. American Airlines said No, US Airways said Yes, but there are differences beyond that. The DFW hub said Yes, but MIA voted it down by 63%. PHX gave it a thumbs up by a similar margin, but CLT was in the No camp.

Full details here

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 12): The vote is over.. I won't banter.. But, in two years we could have made what we were making OVER a decade ago. In two years, AA is projected to make 10 billion.. I won't settle. I'll tell you what voters during the LBFO told me.. If you don't like it, you have a choice. Suck it up. AA ORD

You had better get your rosary beads out for the mediation process. Are you hearing what this person is saying everyone? They are saying that $111 million is better than the contract we have today. That's true! But we would have had a $193 million contract. Suck it up? Seriously?

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 10): being paid more to work the first class cabin

Are we talking domestic first or international?

But you are right. The vote is over. It's done. I will fly my trip next week with complete uncertainty about my future. Last post on the subject. Everyone have a great day.  

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 18): But you are right. The vote is over. It's done. I will fly my trip next week with complete uncertainty about my future. Last post on the subject. Everyone have a great day.

Ditto.. its been complete uncertainty since 9/11

AA ORD

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 10): Yes. Most of them refuse to pay back dues so anyone who owed back dues to the union were not eligible to vote.

My understanding is most of the ones who couldnt afford to pay backdues was because they were being charged membership fees whilst being furloughed and not earning any income?

Anyways seems like madness and this union is not really the best for its members.

Nearly every constituency other than the Facebook experts roundly agree that there is no chance of the contract coming out of binding arbitration being as good, let alone better, than this deal - I guess we'll soon see if they're correct.

It appears that some people are still making emotional decisions based on their blinding hatred and bitterness of AA management - chasing the ghosts of a decade ago - and yet, the irony is that, with this narrow defeat, it appears AA management is now going to get a less expensive contract than they were otherwise willing to agree to. Ultimately, while this may well prove to be a bad day for AA's rank-and-file flight attendants, and is absolutely without question a bad day for Laura Glading and the APFA leadership, it may well prove to be a good day for AA's finances.

Wow, just wow - how completely sad for AA's flight attendants.

Quoting commavia (Reply 21): It appears that some people are still making emotional decisions based on their blinding hatred and bitterness of AA management - chasing the ghosts of a decade ago - and yet, the irony is that, with this narrow defeat, it appears AA management is now going to get a less expensive contract than they were otherwise willing to agree to. Ultimately, while this may well prove to be a bad day for AA's rank-and-file flight attendants, and is absolutely without question a bad day for Laura Glading and the APFA leadership, it may well prove to be a good day for AA's finances.

  

I'm not a flight attendant, but if I had the opportunity to bury the hatchet and accept an industry-leading work agreement that would eventually lead to me becoming the highest-paid employee amongst my peers at other companies, I wouldn't say no. Especially if the alternative is a binding arbitration that guarantees ~40% less value with no say in the matter.

This is amazing. I don't think I have ever seen a time when a labor force has voted to shoot themselves in the face to spite their nose. The new contract is going to be less costly to AA now. This might be a good time to buy AA stock!

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 17): Are we talking domestic first or international?

Sorry, I lied, notmy last post  . That would have been every flight in the system. We have never had that. We have had paid training, never had holiday pay, we got an additional week of vacation back that we had lost after 9/11. The MIA base has always been the radical group, and even though, for the first time ever, the entire union board from all bases,including MIA, voted unanimously to approve it, MIA still turns it down by 63%. They are entitled to their view, but if you are based there (as I have been), it is like working for a completely different airline based in a third world country. If I had to go through Miami customs every time I got home from a trip, I would not be happy with any contract short of $200 an hour  !

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 19): Ditto.. its been complete uncertainty since 9/11

And you just made sure it stayed that way.

I am shocked by this outcome. what a tremendous opportunity to move forward with everyone feeling good about the future......we will see what happens but I cant imagine the outcome will be better or as good than the original TA.

This may drive other workgroups to take notice and not go down the same path.

Is it set in stone that this will now go to arbitration? I ask because with the vote being so close, it seems it would be easy to tweak language on reserve rules or scheduling or almost anything to swing 1/1000th of the voters from no to yes. In the interest of long term labor peace it might make more sense for the company than risking the arbitrator really angering the flight attendants.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 27): Is it set in stone that this will now go to arbitration?

Yes, both sides agreed to it.

Simply........wow. I work on the ground, not an F/a but I am amazed at this sector of the workforce, and wonder what the mentality and expectation is for those voting 'no.'

Quoting Aacun (Reply 1):

wow.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 6): Good luck in binding arbitration, APFA. You're going to need it.

no kidding.

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 12): But, in two years we could have made what we were making OVER a decade ago.

            Good luck with that one.

Quoting ozark1 (Reply 10): If you are an AA flight attendant, as I am, you are a perfect representative of the side that voted against. There is NO mediation. ZIP. ZILCH. ZERO. Instead of being paid the highest wages, getting an additional week of vacation, being paid more to work the first class cabin, receiving holiday pay..i could go on and on....you choose to make it a crapshoot with our careers and let a judge, who has no knowledge of our work rules, decide our future. In two years we could have made $63 an hour. Yep that's right. I am completely perplexed and completely amazed that so many people are living on another planet. Reality has changed folks. You have been duped by Facebook and it is an enormous tragedy.

                          

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 12): In two years, AA is projected to make 10 billion.

            even better luck with that one. The judge is going to chew the APFA up and spit them out if that is what they go on. Very good work, just keep dragging the industry down while chasing 2003.....

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 14): This may come as quite a shock to you, but arbitrators don't make decisions based on what the company is projected to make any more than mortgage companies would approve a college student for a $500,000 mortgage based on their projected earnings in a few years once they graduate.

                          

Quoting commavia (Reply 21): and is absolutely without question a bad day for Laura Glading and the APFA leadership

I don't think so. From what I have seen the APFA and its leadership was more than happy to tell the rank and file they are idiots if they don't take this. The union leadership can only do so much. So many AA employees think they are going to go back to 2003 overnight. I would have thought getting back handed by the judge in BK would have made them a little smarter, but once again they are going to slapped.

AA's FAs had a great chance to better the industry and they didn't do it. I really hope that if the the APA and the TWU/IAM get offered the same chance they are not stupid enough to think they will do better in arbitration.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 30): I really hope that if the the APA and the TWU/IAM get offered the same chance they are not stupid enough to think they will do better in arbitration.

It all depends on what happens in arbitration. If the flight attendants somehow make out better than the TA, the others may take the risk. If the flight attendants get less, as everyone suspects, it should serve as a warning to the others.

Quoting silentbob (Reply 31):

I do agree with your point, but in all honesty I don't see a single way possible the FAs get better in arbitration.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 30): I don't think so.

I do. Unions are inherently political organizations, and leadership offices are inherently political positions. My opinions about some of her past actions and judgements notwithstanding, I do genuinely take Glading at her word that she and her team worked extremely hard to get this deal done, and that they genuinely believe - rightly, I agree - that this was the absolute best they could get. As such, she and her team personally staked a great deal of political capital on getting this TA ratified. They failed. Yes, it was close, and yes, many agree that voting this down was stupid, but either way, she failed. I see absolutely no way - right or wrong - that this does not weaker her politically.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 30): From what I have seen the APFA and its leadership was more than happy to tell the rank and file they are idiots if they don't take this.

Indeed - APFA leadership was "more than happy to tell the rank and file they are idiots if they don't take this" - and yet more than 39% of her voting members were more than happy to ignore her and her team's advice and vote no anyway. That is quite telling (and unfortunate).

Quoting capejet (Reply 23): The new contract is going to be less costly to AA now. This might be a good time to buy AA stock!

I for one don't like the sound of industry leading labor costs. What was the point of BK if they're just going to pump labor costs up.

Maybe they weren't happy with work rules? Not everything is monetary

FWIW this happens with in other labor sectors. When I worked at a chemical plant the union employees went on strike for 4 months to protest a 2.5% percent a year cost increase in their health insurance even though the rest of the contract was quite good.

I feel bad for those who wanted to take a good offer and now have to put up with the militant wing wanting to role the dice on this with arbitration. I think they have a majority of those wanting to take it, but it is just amazing of how many did not vote and could have easily tipped in the favor of acceptance.

Any aribtration judge will not care that they are going to make $10 billion. It is expected companies are going to be profitable. The judge is going to see an offer that would have made them and industry leader in pay and reject it. I hope for the best for these FA's

If you were able to vote for your local politician online I would expect a 80% turnout as well. If you had to drive into a office and cast a vote this would have been around a 30% turnout

Glading posted this on her Facebook page:

Quote: Like many of you, I was devastated by the results of the T/A balloting today. It is extremely disappointing to see the improvements our membership was set to receive rejected by such a narrow margin. However, the APFA is above all a democratic organization and the will of the membership is paramount. As has been made clear, the Negotiations Protocol Agreement requires that we submit the outstanding contractual issues to binding arbitration. This week, the Joint Negotiating Committee will begin preparing the case we will present to the arbitration panel. Although the NPA limits the value of the arbitration award to “market-based in the aggregate,” our team is going to do everything possible to protect our work group. The arbitration is set to begin on Wednesday, December 3rd. In the meantime, we are all going to put our heads down and prepare the best possible case. What is most important to remember as we go forward is that we are one united work group with one united goal: to improve our lives and livelihoods. And improve them we will. The nature of the agreement we reached with management guarantees that we meet the pay and benefits of our peers at United, Continental, and Delta. While we cannot reach the value of the T/A in binding arbitration, no Flight Attendant will be harmed by the arbitrated contract. As always, stay tuned to the APFA Hotline for important information and developments. It has always been, and continues to be, an honor to serve the APFA membership.

She seems genuinely disappointed. It's unbelievable that some folks just can't understand that things will never be the same as they were 10+ years ago. Instead of blindly chasing a situation that will likely never exist again, look forward and secure your future.

Quoting commavia (Reply 33): I do. Unions are inherently political organizations, and leadership offices are inherently political positions. My opinions about some of her past actions and judgements notwithstanding, I do genuinely take Glading at her word that she and her team worked extremely hard to get this deal done, and that they genuinely believe - rightly, I agree - that this was the absolute best they could get. As such, she and her team personally staked a great deal of political capital on getting this TA ratified. They failed. Yes, it was close, and yes, many agree that voting this down was stupid, but either way, she failed. I see absolutely no way - right or wrong - that this does not weaker her politically.

I somewhat agree with your point

but also, I think that you also have to step back sometimes and put it on the voters. Example. The IAM contract at United was a fail by both the union and the voters. In this case the APFA hit a home run and the voters rejected it. I can't blame that one on the union. (but i also agree to a point that the leadership should be able to guide the members in the right direction. )

I personally believe the APFA has some of the best leaders out there. They did a great job in BK and did a great job with this TA. Voters failed on this one.

Quoting commavia (Reply 33): Indeed - APFA leadership was "more than happy to tell the rank and file they are idiots if they don't take this" - and yet more than 39% of her voting members were more than happy to ignore her and her team's advice and vote no anyway. That is quite telling (and unfortunate).

I think that, like i said, AA just has to many employees who expect to be back at 2002 pay rates etc. I have had discussions with AA employees on what they expected from the BK contracts....... 2002 or nothing.

Their was also ALOT of misinformation floating around out there. Some of which has shown up in this thread.

Quoting AA94 (Reply 38): She seems genuinely disappointed. It's unbelievable that some folks just can't understand that things will never be the same as they were 10+ years ago. Instead of blindly chasing a situation that will likely never exist again, look forward and secure your future.

She has been an outstanding leader. She has worked tirelessly. She is completely devoted to us as a work group. It is so tragic that, at every turn, if you agree with management, something must be wrong. I strongly believe in unions, but at some point there must be an agreement with management.

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 15): but CLT was in the No camp.

What is it about the USAir culture? Weren't their pilots the biggest problem in the merger with America West?

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 41): What is it about the USAir culture? Weren't their pilots the biggest problem in the merger with America West?

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 15): American Airlines said No, US Airways said Yes

It seems US Airways was not the culprit in this case. The AA group was responsible for the "NO" vote.

Let the fun begin. Union zero. Company one.   

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 39): Their was also ALOT of misinformation floating around out there. Some of which has shown up in this thread

you are EXACTLY right!! it has been stated in this thread that the rejected TA included holiday pay, something that APFA never had before.. In fact, the 2001 contract offered holiday pay! If you have studied the 289 page tentative document as I have, please continue to help point out misinformation!


I'll go ahead and give you TWO more examples of misinformation!

When the TA was announced, APFA stated THATS IT.. take it or leave it! .. shortly there after, 13 mil, I believe, was added because DL matched the pay raises that the AA ta included. Secondly, because of the UPROAR the "hard 40" caused, AA agreed to completely remove that from the TA. This was an unfinished TA. It was a "conditional" TA. Depending on the vote would determine the final language of the TA. NO ONE was happy with the "negotiations" that continued after the TA was presented for a vote. Most were not happy that the contents of the FINAL agreement were contingent upon the vote! Luckily for most of you, this is just "interesting read' and not your livelihood.
AA ORD

[Edited 2014-11-09 18:15:28]

[Edited 2014-11-09 18:17:25]

[Edited 2014-11-09 18:36:50]

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 8): And this trend is different how? what was the turnout for the November primary? Approx 78% of APFA fa's voted. Over 16,000 voted. 4000 did not. November primary turnout? less than 20% ... 78% turnout is impressive, in my opinion.. AA ORD

You are comparing a political vote to a labour vote in in which your livelihood is involved? I don't see how that is a fair comparison at all. Apples to walnuts if you ask me.

[quote=brilondon,reply=45]You are comparing a political vote to a labour vote in in which your livelihood is involved?[/quote

trust me. political votes most certainly do influence my livelihood. And while I agree, 100% is desired participation in any election, I stand that 78% was a good turnout! No "blame" should be sheltered on ANYONE that voted.. That is simply exercising their right! Take offense with those 4000 that DIDN'T vote!

AA ORD]

Quoting flyfree727 (Reply 46): Take offense with those 4000 that DIDN'T vote!

Those 4000 that did not vote, cannot complain!!!!!   

Quoting commavia (Reply 21): It appears that some people are still making emotional decisions based on their blinding hatred and bitterness of AA management

So the pushing of the merger and getting it with US management in charge did not fully cure / excise the bad blood.......bummer.
Will be interesting to see the integration of the groups if as expected the agreement out of arbitration will be lower, will be bad blood there also.
Interesting time ahead for AA and its f/a's.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 39): but also, I think that you also have to step back sometimes and put it on the voters. Example. The IAM contract at United was a fail by both the union and the voters. In this case the APFA hit a home run and the voters rejected it. I can't blame that one on the union. (but i also agree to a point that the leadership should be able to guide the members in the right direction.

No question - the people ultimately responsible for what will now, by most if not all accounts, be an inferior (lower-value) contract are the rank-and-file flight attendant voters. Laura Glading is merely a single vote out of over 20,000.

Nonetheless, I don't see how this can be realistically and honestly viewed as anything other than a huge political loss for Glading, et al - and not just internally within the union, either. Indeed, the external political cost may ultimately prove even more important, as now the APFA comes off - to management, other unions and non-union employees, peer groups at competitors, investors, analysts, etc. - as the unreasonable party, whether that's fair or not. For years, and to varying degrees of success, the unions portrayed AA management - often unfairly, in my view - of being unreasonable and unable and/or unwilling to deal. But now, AA's own rank-and-file union members have voted down a contract that is - again, by most if not all accounts - far more valuable than what they're about to receive. That is not a good public position for the union to be in - relative to leverage with management, and just public perception in general.

Quoting Deltal1011man (Reply 39): I think that, like i said, AA just has to many employees who expect to be back at 2002 pay rates etc. I have had discussions with AA employees on what they expected from the BK contracts....... 2002 or nothing.

Again - agreed. There are some union members at AA that have long harbored wildly unrealistic expectations about the economic realities of this industry in the post-9/11 world. In the run up to, and following, this vote, even many AA FAs are openly admitting what many have long known - there are just some people who are so blinded by bitterness and detached from the realities of 2014 as opposed to 1994, if note 1974, that they just will not act rationally. And now a lot of other AA FAs are may well pay the price for that irrationality.

Quoting par13del (Reply 48): So the pushing of the merger and getting it with US management in charge did not fully cure / excise the bad blood.......bummer.

That's the irony, here, though - unlike what has transpired for the last decade, the APFA cannot point to management as the boogie man this time around. Flight attendants themselves were responsible for the outcome of this vote, either way. The union (if not necessarily all the members) got what it wanted - a merger and ridding the company of the AA management team.

[Edited 2014-11-09 19:22:27]