MesaFlyGuy
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:48 am

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 99):

What's the equipment?
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
commavia
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sat Dec 13, 2014 1:54 am

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 99):
Wow! It looks like American is bringing back CLE-LGA on March 29th!

Will look forward to "official" confirmation, but it wouldn't be particularly surprising - NYC-CLE is a substantial O&D market, and with United's capacity reduction in CLE, AA clearly must feel there is market there for the taking.

Depending on the future status of United's CLE operation, and given that United already has a megahub at EWR, I would not be shocked to see United in the future shift more CLE-NYC capacity from LGA to EWR in the form of more flights and/or larger aircraft - possibly even including eliminate CLE-LGA completely.

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 99):
Had United announced the de-hub just a month or two sooner, this probably never would have dropped in the first place.

  

[Edited 2014-12-12 17:57:10]
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sat Dec 13, 2014 3:30 am

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 99):

Looks to be 3x daily during the week,

Interesting, to say the least. I wonder what they're cutting - some of those PHL flights? This gives me some hope that AA will bring back CLE-LAX.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sat Dec 13, 2014 4:07 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 102):
 This gives me some hope that AA will bring back CLE-LAX

When did AA fly CLE-LAX?
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
joeman
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:23 am

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 103):
When did AA fly CLE-LAX?

From the mid 1950's until the age of megahubs
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sat Dec 13, 2014 6:19 am

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 99):
Wow! It looks like American is bringing back CLE-LGA on March 29th!

And ... now isn't this amazing ... UA posted a CLE-LGA schedule reduction of 2 flights on the same day - from 8 non-stops on peak days to 6, keeping a one flight lead over DL.
 
fun2fly
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sat Dec 13, 2014 12:03 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 105):
And ... now isn't this amazing ... UA posted a CLE-LGA schedule reduction of 2 flights on the same day - from 8 non-stops on peak days to 6, keeping a one flight lead over DL.

Once it is all settled out, I'd be interested to see what the seat counts are prior and post. UA may be changing over to E170/175's at some point with the massive pull down which may lure some travelers. The loss of many corporate contracts will also greatly affect LGA or in AA's case, allow them to gain more traction.

Where will the UA frequencies go? DEN?

[Edited 2014-12-13 04:05:31]
 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sat Dec 13, 2014 2:34 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 105):
And ... now isn't this amazing ... UA posted a CLE-LGA schedule reduction of 2 flights on the same day - from 8 non-stops on peak days to 6, keeping a one flight lead over DL.

And in another twist, it looks like UA loaded a 5th daily BOS flight from CLE in April, likely in response to B6.

Appears to be quite a few changes this weekend that are starting to load. Hopefully official word on these routes soon.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sat Dec 13, 2014 5:04 pm

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 106):
Once it is all settled out, I'd be interested to see what the seat counts are prior and post.

Along a similar line, I've been trying to compare UA's seat reduction to CLE's actual passenger boardings and it's not all that simple because DoT data doesn't report express carriers' traffic with the mainline brand; however here's what it looks like to me.

UA's schedule in July averaged about 68 flights, which was about 124 less than the previous summer on peak days. Allowing for some of those eliminated flights to be 37 passenger, some 74 passenger but most 50 passenger, let's say that 124 peak day cuts, spread over the week resulted in an average 110 daily cut of 50-seaters. So 110 flights x 50 seats x 31 days in July means UA cut 170,500 seats or 131,285 actual boarding passengers (at their claimed 77% load factor).

CLE's domestic boardings in July 2013 were 376K and in July 2014 were 307K, a decline of 69K. Straight-line subtraction means other airlines's CLE traffic increased year-over-year by about 62K. By inference, UA only moved about half their CLE losses to their other hubs; the other half they lost to other carriers. (I'd love to know what UA's projected capture rate was - I bet it was higher than 50%.)

Note: my data has holes in it, associated with international flights and other imprecise assumptions, but I think its a reasonable swag. Reasonable enough to say: no wonder other carriers are responding so positively adding flights in CLE.
 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:41 pm

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 100):
What's the equipment?

It looks to be an ERJ-140.

The flight schedules are now appearing this afternoon on the US Airways website (not on American's yet) and operated by Envoy.
 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:07 pm

The AA flights from CLE to LGA are available for purchase this morning. Looking at the first week in April where AA, DL, and UA will be operating the route a Monday flight to LGA with a Friday return to CLE is $503 on all 3 airlines. We'll see what competition does to this route in a post United hub market as we get closer to spring.

If AA found the slots to add 3 daily LGA back to CLE, surely they can find slots to add 3x daily to their DCA hub.

I'm wondering what came first, the 2 UA drops to LGA or the 3 LGA adds by AA, which take place at the same date, certainly no coincidence.

It's also very interesting that UA added a 5th daily frequency to BOS in response to B6 entering, yet made no adjustments to fares. Nonstops on UA are more than double B6. The flight added was an early morning CLE departure, likely to better capture BOS day trips for CLE based pax. But without price matching B6, UA will probably struggle against B6 for most travelers.

With UA continually dropping departures, the C gates are going to get a little lonely by the end of next year. Any chance that other airlines can move over there in the future? The C gates will have too many security lanes and the A gates won't have enough.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:29 pm

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 110):
If AA found the slots to add 3 daily LGA back to CLE, surely they can find slots to add 3x daily to their DCA hub.

Easily, if they want to. Both airports have numerous flights to CLT and PHL which could be pared through upgauging.

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 110):
It's also very interesting that UA added a 5th daily frequency to BOS in response to B6 entering, yet made no adjustments to fares.

I'm intrigued that JetBlue has provoked UA's *only* aggressive reaction to all the new service in CLE. UA may consider B6 beatable, whereas fighting Spirit or Frontier is inevitably a losing proposition for non-hub markets. I'm also guessing UA wants to have as much visibility in BOS as they can manage lest they get totally squeezed out of that market.

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 110):
the C gates are going to get a little lonely by the end of next year. Any chance that other airlines can move over there in the future?

The airport has the right to take back six C gates from UA (the former NW gates); but they have no incentive to let UA off the hook on gate leases that run for another 12 years - they need to make debt payments, after all. Plus, there is sufficient spare capacity in A and B to accommodate B6, F9, and NK at their currently-envisioned levels of operations. AA,DL, and WN also have room to spare for any growth they might have in mind.

UA, however, can and probably would sublet some gates if they have the chance - they're paying a lot of money for empty CLE real estate..
 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:32 am

This is also interesting, clearly another sign that AA is being aggressive in building CLE market share. AA is actually price matching select F9's nonstop CLE-FLL fares in Jan/Feb/Mar against their own nonstop CLE-MIA flights. Nonstop round trips on CLE-MIA can be had for $145 on American, the same as F9 on CLE-FLL. I suppose with the upgauged flights this winter, AA feels they can sell a few more discounted fares to MIA.

It also appears that Louisville was the donor airport for the LGA slots. They lose their 3 daily flights to LGA when the CLE flights begin.

It will be interesting to see the 4Q pax counts and fare data for CLE-LGA with F9 on the route for 2/3rds of that quarter. I'm curious what the load factors were and if UA/DL felt a noticeable drop off in their morning departures, or if WN felt an effect at CAK. With 168 daily seats available, that's 3.5 regional jets - more than what AA is adding March.
 
krod031
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:36 pm

The WN schedules are out. Nothing new for CLE or CAK. It seems though WN answered B6 with going 2x daily on CAK-BOS
 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:03 pm

Quoting krod031 (Reply 113):

The WN schedules are out. Nothing new for CLE or CAK. It seems though WN answered B6 with going 2x daily on CAK-BOS


Disappointing. That's roughly 16 daily departures from CLE and 10 from CAK. The 7x MDW might be a bump from last year, but I don't remember for sure. IIRC, WN ran 2x CAK-BOS last year for the summer season as well, so that's only noteworthy this summer against 2x CLE-BOS on JetBlue. We'll see if WN can hold its own on the route, as surely B6 will take some market share, how much from UA and WN to be determined. I wonder if WN will be the price setter on this route, and how much B6 will feel the need to match prices or vice versa.

While it's old news that UA is dropping Tampa in April, I just noticed that NK service to TPA is seasonal only and F9 goes to 4x weekly for th summer season. F9 will have a monopoly on CLE-TPA for the summer on a less than daily schedule. I know Florida drops off in the summer, but can CLE not support a year round daily CLE-TPA flight anymore? I wonder if F9 will convert this to daily as we head closer to summer?
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:07 pm

Quoting krod031 (Reply 113):
Nothing new for CLE

One more CLE-MDW, no? Making it 7 on most days.

Sixteen CLE flights this summer is inching up slowly. I'm only disappointed they're all to WN hubs.
 
krod031
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:15 pm

Er. when i said nothing new, i meant no new service for CLE or CAK. CLE did get an additional flight to MDW.

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 115):
One more CLE-MDW, no? Making it 7 on most days.


[Edited 2014-12-17 07:15:49]

[Edited 2014-12-17 07:16:20]
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:47 pm

Airlines react to traffic and rarely anticipate, nevertheless it's encouraging to see CLE make the 2015 "must visit" lists at Travel and Leisure magazine as well as Fodor's Travel Guide. T&L is aimed more at travel agents than travelers, so that's especially good.
 
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mbm3
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:34 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 111):
I'm intrigued that JetBlue has provoked UA's *only* aggressive reaction to all the new service in CLE. UA may consider B6 beatable, whereas fighting Spirit or Frontier is inevitably a losing proposition for non-hub markets. I'm also guessing UA wants to have as much visibility in BOS as they can manage lest they get totally squeezed out of that marke

I really have to wonder if this has more to do with their TATL JV with LH & LX than UA thinking B6 is beatable. If anything, they know B6 beats their pants off in customer satisfaction!

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 112):
This is also interesting, clearly another sign that AA is being aggressive in building CLE market share

Beyond the rumored flights from LAX, it is a fact that AA/Envoy is hiring a LOT of staff in CLE....
Let Me Tell You, Landing A 772ER Is Harder Than It Looks!
 
LifetimeGS
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:27 pm

Huge ticket counter space too.
 
greenair727
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:04 pm

^You think we could see a AA or BA LHR flight?
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:45 pm

I've gotta say, I flew F9 for the first time out of CLE last week (I've flown them several times before out west), and what a slapshod, totally winging it experience it was. Just awful. The gate area looks run down and thrown together (they just slapped an F9 logo on a very obviously USAir counter), the airplane didn't start boarding until 10 minutes before departure time despite the inbound being at the gate early, then when we finally boarded we sat for almost an hour with absolutely no aknowledgement from the crew that we were late. We were scheduled to go at 1240 and didn't push til 1330 and throughout the entire trip NOBODY mentioned it. Not once. It was like it's just SOP and hey, when we get there we get there, whatever!

My past experience with F9 has been decent to good, but this last ride really put me off. Very amateur.
 
fun2fly
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:38 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 121):
My past experience with F9 has been decent to good, but this last ride really put me off. Very amateur.

Which is why you would have hoped CLE courted WN a lot more than one new flight to MDW.

Quoting LifetimeGS (Reply 119):

^You think we could see a AA or BA LHR flight?

You'd hope.

When does the construction for the new entries start?
 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:07 pm

Quoting fun2fly (Reply 122):
Which is why you would have hoped CLE courted WN a lot more than one new flight to MDW.

To be fair, CLE did get a year round PHX flight out of WN as well. But yes, WN could have done so much more from CLE than what they've done thus far. And WN inherited CAK and thus it's going to be a balancing act between the two airports for the time being. Any courting by CLE will be countered by courting from CAK.

As the past year has shown, if there's going to be a build up of WN at CLE, it's going to be slow and steady, one or two new flights a year. WN has shown respectable (~10%) growth in pax counts at CLE this year so they can certainly support more service. While that 10% sounds good, when you consider the pax drops they've had at CAK this year, WN is down as a whole for NE Ohio. And for the 6 years prior, WN has had falling or stagnating pax counts at CLE. Considering the growth that DL and AA/US have seen from both CAK and CLE this year, WN isn't capturing new market share in NE Ohio that well. If WN wants to keep both CLE and CAK, then I think WN is probably more concerned with stabilizing their CAK numbers before adding too much in the way from CLE, which could hurt growth at CAK. September 2014 (most recent available) load factors for WN were ~87% for CLE and ~67% from CAK. Bottom line is that WN has a lot of seats in NE Ohio that aren't being filled. It will be interesting to see how WN does this winter with NK coming online in a few weeks and F9's large winter Florida presence.

WN needs to build brand loyalty in the region. However, both CAK and CLE are trying to build up airport loyalty. For WN, that's conflicting. They need to have NE Ohio pax remember to choose to fly from CAK when they need to go to New York or Boston and to remember to fly from CLE when they need to go to Chicago. Fly from CAK when you want to go to Florida, but fly from CLE when you need lots of frequencies to connect elsewhere.
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:05 am

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 123):
They need to have NE Ohio pax remember to choose to fly from CAK when they need to go to New York or Boston

jetBlue throws a big wrench in that. If there's one airline with bigger brand loyalty than WN, it's B6, and B6 has a superior product (apart from checked bags in the future.)

I'd love to see either WN or B6 expand Cleveland substantially. I'm not talking about a hub, but 20-30 flights a day would be great. B6 to JFK, Florida, maybe the west coast, WN to DCA, DAL, STL, something like that. Frontier is just entirely too flakey, and their product really seems to be taking a hit with the shift toward ULCC.

[Edited 2014-12-20 18:07:24]
 
ATLFlyer323
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 21, 2014 3:02 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 124):
jetBlue throws a big wrench in that. If there's one airline with bigger brand loyalty than WN, it's B6, and B6 has a superior product (apart from checked bags in the future.)

I am a HUGE CAK supporter, I prefer to fly from my hometown airport than to drive an hour to get to CLE, however I do think I may make a trip to try jetBlue. I can remember when I was in college down in Florida I had a friend who always flew them home to NY and loved them, I've wanted to try their product ever since.

I am flying an international trip out of CLE on the 26th and I'm excited (probably not the correct word) to see how things have changed now that the hub is closed. I am NOT excited to connect in Newark however, what a dump.

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 123):
If WN wants to keep both CLE and CAK, then I think WN is probably more concerned with stabilizing their CAK numbers before adding too much in the way from CLE, which could hurt growth at CAK. September 2014 (most recent available) load factors for WN were ~87% for CLE and ~67% from CAK

I agree with you 100%, and I'm glad you didn't just say how they should close up shop at CAK like what people on this forum usually say. My flight from New York last month back to CAK was MAYBE half full, I was a little worried. I'm wondering if the up-guage in seats from 717 to 737 may be a little too much for CAK, especially now that CAK competes with a cheaper CLE and even Allegiant out of YNG now. I will say the management team running CAK is constantly throwing WN in every press release, but it's obvious that DL is stealing passengers, their flights to ATL are full and on much bigger equipment than they used to be years ago. Many people around CAK were loyal to Airtran, they built this airport to what it is today... and sometimes older people tend to scare away from new things. I know my aunt used to always say if Airtran didn't fly there she wasn't going there... so that may summarize some of WN's troubles at CAK at the moment.

-ATLFlyer323
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
krod031
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:22 am

Im curious... Does anybody know what the cost per enplanement is at CLE vs CAK??
 
LifetimeGS
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:29 am

I have logged over 20K miles from June to Dec on F9, the seats are comfortable, the FA's are wonderful, each and every flight has been on time. I think I've done about 20 segments. I do not find anything flakey about them. While its not always easy to get used to the schedule changes the savings make it acceptable. I do not care for the check-in staff. The leased staff is ever changing and not the most pleasant. When they are rude I tell them so. They have a bad habit of dictating to travelers in a tone that is unacceptable. The gate staff, oddly most the same people in rotation are much happier. I know going in that in the event of an irregular op I'm stuck, unlike the big three who can route me via a hub. I really hope they continue to grow CLE. There are plenty of places F9 can fly with limited frequency from CLE. I think I'm the only CLE Summit however. Still hoping for more flights and destinations. Heres to destinations not served by the big three in the next few years!
 
N766UA
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:43 pm

Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 125):
I am a HUGE CAK supporter, I prefer to fly from my hometown airport than to drive an hour to get to CLE, however I do think I may make a trip to try jetBlue.

While the CAK/Southwest combo is hard to beat, I think it's definitely worth the trip for you, at least to give them a try. I flew jetBlue all the time when I lived in Boston, and I can't say enough good things about them. I could ride around on their E190's all day.

Quoting LifetimeGS (Reply 127):
I have logged over 20K miles from June to Dec on F9, the seats are comfortable, the FA's are wonderful, each and every flight has been on time. I think I've done about 20 segments. I do not find anything flakey about them.

My jury's still out. The FA's are a mixed bag, and the seats are comfortable, but they're very dirty. (Stretch is best.) I've done 4 segments with them in the past 5 months. 1 was unremarkable, 1 was awesome, 1 was an hour late, and 1 was atrocious. I think the most accurate thing I can say right now is that they're inconsistent. I also had to cancel a flight last minute this month and they refused to refund the money I paid to check a bag. I get that I'm forfeiting my airfare, that's fine, but seriously you're gunna keep the money for the bag I never actually checked?

They've got some work to do.
 
masseybrown
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 21, 2014 8:58 pm

Quoting krod031 (Reply 126):
Im curious... Does anybody know what the cost per enplanement is at CLE vs CAK??

According to the FAA's CATS data reports, for 2013: CAK - $3.04 CLE - $14.21

(Posting because I cannot handle watching the football game. UA is less upsetting than the Browns.)
 
flyguy89
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:02 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 128):
I also had to cancel a flight last minute this month and they refused to refund the money I paid to check a bag. I get that I'm forfeiting my airfare, that's fine, but seriously you're gunna keep the money for the bag I never actually checked?

Well what exactly do you expect with an ULCC? You get what you pay for. If you want the UA cancellations policies, pay the UA ticket prices.
 
krod031
Posts: 124
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 21, 2014 9:46 pm

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 129):
According to the FAA's CATS data reports, for 2013: CAK - $3.04 CLE - $14.21
Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 123):
September 2014 (most recent available) load factors for WN were ~87% for CLE and ~67% from CAK

Thanks for these. I know theres more, but im now interested to know which city is making more money based on the load factors posted between Lakeeffect and other posts such as the GRR Use or Lose post. I saw in that post (iirc) for the year of CLE at 82% and CAK at 78%
 
ATLFlyer323
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 128):
While the CAK/Southwest combo is hard to beat, I think it's definitely worth the trip for you, at least to give them a try. I flew jetBlue all the time when I lived in Boston, and I can't say enough good things about them. I could ride around on their E190's all day.

Is their a difference in hard product between their A320's and their E190's?

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 129):
According to the FAA's CATS data reports, for 2013: CAK - $3.04 CLE - $14.21

Well now we may know why they are still at both airports and trying to make CAK work. If they can get the loads up it is a cheaper airport to serve, and their gates at their airport are very new and nice!

-ATLFlyer323
Everyday, the fluffy temptation of wheat!
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:45 pm

Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 132):
Quoting N766UA (Reply 128):While the CAK/Southwest combo is hard to beat, I think it's definitely worth the trip for you, at least to give them a try. I flew jetBlue all the time when I lived in Boston, and I can't say enough good things about them. I could ride around on their E190's all day.
Is their a difference in hard product between their A320's and their E190's?

I've flown about 50 segments on JetBlue in the last year and I've found the seats on the E190s to be more comfortable than those of the a320x with the older seats, and just as comfy as the a320s' newer seats.

Also, the 2X2 layout on the E190s is much more pleasing to me than the 3X3 on the Airbus.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
lakeeffect
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:46 pm

Quoting krod031 (Reply 131):
Thanks for these. I know theres more, but im now interested to know which city is making more money based on the load factors posted between Lakeeffect and other posts such as the GRR Use or Lose post. I saw in that post (iirc) for the year of CLE at 82% and CAK at 78%

The problem with looking at YTD or rolling 12 month load factors is that WN (for the most part) was the only low cost carrier up until this summer. Obviously, much has changed the past few months (and much more will change in the next few with NK and B6). WN had great load factors at CAK earlier this year (upper 80s), but when CLE was dehubbed and F9 started, they've dropped quite a bit at CAK. In addition, upgauging of flights has added more seats to fill in CAK against more discount leisure capacity at CLE.

This is what the latest year to date LF's look like for WN:

Jan through Sep 2014 load factor for CLE on WN was ~85.
Jan through Sep 2014 load factor for CAK on WN was ~74.

It will be interesting to see if the dip at CAK and the rise at CLE is just a temporary blip or the start of a new trend. The 1Q15 LF numbers will be telling with NK also adding quite a bit of Florida capacity for the winter and spring break periods.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there aren't many connecting opportunities from WN out of CAK, just a daily DEN and 2x ATL. That likely means more profitable pax versus CLE, which is probably skewed much more heavily towards connections.
 
rtalk25
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RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Sun Dec 21, 2014 11:59 pm

I wonder if WN wants to focus on IND, as the new schedule addition shows nonstops to LAX and BOS from IND. It could re-use the CAK dedicated LGA slots to IND and then offer a more complete set of business markets for IND customers.

The CAK-BOS route won't be sustainable after summer when VFR/tourism drops, kids are back in school, and JetBlue is there at CLE-BOS with low fares. Maybe it would downsize CAK to just the Florida cities at that point with maybe a token BWI flight in the mix, and focus the higher frequency business (MDW, BWI, BNA) and westbound destinations (moving ATL and DEN over) ex CLE.

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 134):
The other thing to keep in mind is that there aren't many connecting opportunities from WN out of CAK, just a daily DEN and 2x ATL.

I think the DEN and 2x ATL flights offer a lot of connections though. It's still possible to get PHL-ATL-CAK for example, and FL used to offer this cheaper than WN would offer connects via MDW, but lately WN has been selling PHL-MDW-CLE more competitively priced such as some advance WGAs for $128 or so. Back at the time that Southwest offered PHL-PIT and PHL-CMH for low fares (below $80 WGAs), it'd sell PHL-MDW-CLE for $187 one-way, very often more than reaching a west coast destination, and almost encouraging pax to take the nonstop from the city two hours away and drive. Some of that high fare effect on PHL-MDW-CLE was still there, after the nonstops to PIT and CMH ended. And possibly it's been removed that flying into CAK via an ATL connection isn't cheaper anymore than flying into CLE via a MDW connection.

[Edited 2014-12-21 16:12:26]
 
greenair727
Posts: 1296
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Mon Dec 22, 2014 2:55 am

Quoting rtalk25:
I wonder if WN wants to focus on IND, as the new schedule addition shows nonstops to LAX and BOS from IND. It could re-use the CAK dedicated LGA slots to IND and then offer a more complete set of business markets for IND customers.

WN has a good following in CLE. To give it up to IND after UA has finally scaled back would be a bad move. Instead, moving CAK-LGA to CLE makes far more sense, as that's where there is a greater potential for a higher fare exists and more natural demand. LGA is a lot of business pax--so that market is more elastic with respect to price and less willing to lose an hour driving to North Canton. If WN wanted to be really bold and be the market differentiator on Cleveland-LGA, they'd do BKL-LGA, their original airport of choice in Cleveland.
 
N766UA
Posts: 8227
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:44 am

Quoting ATLFlyer323 (Reply 132):
Is their a difference in hard product between their A320's and their E190's?

While the A320's actually technically have more legroom, the E190's have wider seats and are 2X2, so there's no middle seat. While the A320's are perfectly good airplanes themselves, the 2X2 of the E190's combined with the much bigger windows just makes for a better experience for me. Jetblue + E190 is just a win win.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 130):
Well what exactly do you expect with an ULCC?

Yeah, maybe F9 just isn't for me. That said, I'd rather lose 15$ to F9 over an unchecked bag vs. 500$ to UAL for an exorbitant/ridiculous airfare markup.
 
lakeeffect
Posts: 502
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:41 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:15 pm

Can F9 produce a stable schedule yet? They seemingly change their mind every week deciding what and when to fly. First they announce that Dallas is going daily a month ago, now they change their mind and it's discontinued in late April. Frontier is certainly not an airline that you buy tickets on for a trip several months in the future. I wonder what new destination F9 will announce from CLE that they have no intention of flying for more than a few weeks? I'm also skeptical now that RDU will stay as a daily flight from CLE considering F9 has decided to focus mostly on leisure routes from CLE.

Also noteworthy from the OAG thread is that the date LAX is supposed to go back to 2x daily has been pushed back once again about 6 weeks to April 7th now. Every few weeks we've seen UA push back the return of double daily to SFO and LAX further and further into spring. Hopefully we see AA finally add CLE-LAX this summer.
 
N766UA
Posts: 8227
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Mon Dec 22, 2014 7:49 pm

They're dropping Dallas now, too?! Yeah, but they're not flakey.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 2565
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:09 pm

Quoting N766UA (Reply 137):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 130):
Well what exactly do you expect with an ULCC?

Yeah, maybe F9 just isn't for me. That said, I'd rather lose 15$ to F9 over an unchecked bag vs. 500$ to UAL for an exorbitant/ridiculous airfare markup.

There you go. I find that if you set your expectations appropriately and read up on the charges so you're not surprised, ULCC's can do the job alright.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1296
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:24 pm

I've been trying to put together a list of all changes to capacity at CLE since UA announced dehubbing the city. To account for inter-seasonal differences, below is for the Summer 2015 schedule. All frequencies daily unless otherwise specified

I may be missing a few---feel free to add/edit:

Airline City Freq Comment
AA DFW 4x 4x MD-83--up from: 3 319s/1 CRJ
AA LGA 3x 3x daily weekdays, 1x Sat, 2x Sun
AA ORD 7x up from 6x
AA PHL 6x one rotation to upgauged to 319
AA PHX 1x .

AC YYZ 5x up from 3x

B6 BOS 2x .

DL ATL 8x 4x M88 + 4x 717--up from 7x
DL BDL 1x .
DL IND 0 to 1x to 0 .

F9 ATL 1x .
F9 CUN 2x/wk .
F9 DEN 1x 8x/wk
F9 DFW 0 then 1x then 0 .
F9 FLL 1x .
F9 IAD 0 .
F9 LAS 1x .
F9 LGA 0 to ?x to 0 .
F9 MCO 1x .
F9 PUJ  1x/wk .
F9 RDU 1x .
F9 RSW 1x 6d/wk
F9 SEA 1x .
F9 TPA 4x/wk .
F9 TTN 0 .

NK FLL 1x .
NK LAS 1x .
NK LAX 1x .
NK MCO 1x .
NK MYR 1x .
NK RSW 4x/wk
NK TPA 3x/wk .

UA ALB 0 .
UA AUS 0 .
UA BOS 5x up from 4x
UA DFW 0 .
UA FLL 0 .
UA LGA 6x down from 8x
UA MCI 0 .
UA MSY 0 .
UA OKC 0 .
UA PVD 0 .
UA RIC 0 .
UA RSW 0 .
UA SDF 0 .
UA TPA 0 .
UA YUL 0 .

WN BNA 3x up from 2x
WN MDW 7x up from 6x
WN PHX 1x up from 0
 
lakeeffect
Posts: 502
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:41 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:06 am

Quoting N766UA (Reply 139):
They're dropping Dallas now, too?! Yeah, but they're not flakey.

And to add to this, ATL goes daily in January and stays daily in February. They changed their mind again and In March and April it goes back to 4x weekly. In May it goes back to daily.

Quoting greenair727 (Reply 141):
I may be missing a few---feel free to add/edit:

DL also added RDU

I think AA/US added 1 more CLT or upgauged one of the CRJs to mainline.

The cuts by UA are too numerous, even the cuts made after the initial dehub in February are starting to pile up. There's been quite a bit of quiet trimming, cutting a frequency for a 4 week period and then continuing that cut every few weeks. NAS was supposed to remain seasonal (and is still shown as a seasonal route in the UA hemispheres magazine this month) but it never returned. CHS is also supposed to be seasonal, but it's not loaded yet either. When you think of the new adds by UA in the year preceding the CLE dehub (BNA, OKC, PDX, AUS, and yes a seasonal TVC!) you'd have thought CLE might have been safe for a few more years. So when folks say that the PHX hub by US/AA is safe because they added a new CLE route this year, I hope that's not the only evidence they have.

With the way that F9 has changed their model this year and focused on routes with big leisure O&D numbers and WN's less than enthusiastic move to connect CLE to their "hubs, but not hubs" I'm doubtful there's much in the way of new destinations to appear on the CLE map now. The MYR add by NK might be the last one for a while.

So while I do think this list will grow, it's probably going to be by adding competition to destinations that already exist. Perhaps there's an outside chance CLE pulls off SLC, MCI, and MSY or potentially a short 3 month seasonal PDX/SAN. However, getting a new unserved domestic destination that's run year round and daily is probably a long shot at this point.
 
steeler83
Posts: 7638
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:06 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:36 am

Quoting MasseyBrown (Reply 129):
UA is less upsetting than the Browns.

Wow... that's saying something, but get back to me when your team blows a game against TWO feeble NFC South teams and the hapless Jets, ok?  

It is rather unfortunate that we can't have all AFC North teams finishing with a winning record.

That said, it is also unfortunate that UA is still shrinking their CLE ops. It is good seeing other airlines coming in and picking up at least some of the slack, such as upgauging of AA to DFW and to CLT...
Do not bring stranger girt into your room. The stranger girt is dangerous, it will hurt your life.
 
masseybrown
Posts: 5380
Joined: Wed Dec 11, 2002 2:40 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Tue Dec 23, 2014 6:04 am

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 142):
I'm doubtful there's much in the way of new destinations to appear on the CLE map now.

I don't think AA is done yet. I think CLE might see LAX and DCA (the missing hubs) added. There are still a good number of dubiously valuable DCA flights being operated that could end up at CLE.

To be honest, I'd be encouraged if AA added a PIT-LHR flight; it would show they can find worthwhile profits outside their hubs and might even mean CLE could be next.  

Merry Christmas for the "trash haulers" - 4 Fedex and 5 USP ops tonight.

[Edited 2014-12-22 22:19:41]
 
rtalk25
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:14 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:55 pm

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 138):
I'm also skeptical now that RDU will stay as a daily flight from CLE considering F9 has decided to focus mostly on leisure routes from CLE.

I figured it was for gate* and fleet utilization maximizing purposes. *gate at RDU. All RDU has otherwise is a TTN flight. The schedule is 06:25 PM-07:55 PM CLE-RDU, with return on 08:30 PM -10:15 PM RDU-CLE.

As UST is a more destinational, I initially wondered why it didn't consider CLE-UST seasonally instead. The flight is longer, however, and that might have had an impact to scheduling. A flight to UST (say instead of RDU) would probably mean the return flight getting back into CLE very late.

A shorter substitute would be flight service to a Mid Atlantic airport. I believe it might have figured CAK-DCA between Southwest and US Air fare matching, would adversely impact CLE-IAD from shining well, but in my opinion, even with that CAK option, there has to be greater demand into the Mid Atlantic than Raleigh-Durham area from CLE, even with all things considered like the lack of ample nonstops to RDU. Fares into the Philly region on US/AA are high, and TTN is gate constrained. A flight to PHL would cause an AA/US reaction possibly. I think ILG management should have opened up for more amenities like curbside cab service that atleast TTN offers pax flying into TTN from another market. It might have swayed F9 to keep ILG.

Quoting lakeeffect (Reply 142):
And to add to this, ATL goes daily in January and stays daily in February. They changed their mind again and In March and April it goes back to 4x weekly. In May it goes back to daily.

Some of that fluctuation might be because of aircraft getting taken out of service for new seats during March-April which might be when Frontier is very active on that mission.

I'd think route cancellation entirely (like CLE-DFW) is more likely because of yield management, competition (AA and Spirit) and opportunity costs (flying another route entirely that can make more money). It could replace CLE-DFW with CLE-UST. I'd think at some point though UST might be replaced itself with JAX

[Edited 2014-12-24 08:04:01]
 
rtalk25
Posts: 631
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2014 4:14 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:31 pm

Frontier's David Siegel once said: "We say Spirit is the dollar store and they aspire to be Walmart. We say we are Target, offering really good value for your money,"

With that in mind, with Spirit covering CLE-LAX (think high volume/big market like Wal-Mart), and Frontier covering CLE-SEA seasonally, I'd think it'd be an interesting move if Frontier covered the more destinational but smaller California region SFO over LAX, but via OAK, and complementary to the CLE-SEA route as well.

With F9's tolerance to be in MIA, FLL and PBI, it shouldn't be an issue to be in SFO and OAK, with an OAK gate permitting some options like flight service to PHL, CLE, LAS and a few DL hubs, likely MSP and CVG, which are also small or nonexistant WN stations.

UA would not like F9 on CLE-OAK while it flies CLE-SFO as F9 might steal some leisure traffic, but it's unlikely in my opinion, that UA would respond by fare matching and nonstop to OAK from the other markets (except LAS) could also agitate the legacy carriers that have exclusive or near exclusivity on the SFO routes but unlikely to fare match to OAK.

CLE-SAN remains uncovered and it'd be interesting if Frontier or Spirit whichever starts it first but likely just summer seasonal, but I assume the SAN far more niche destination between it and the Bay Area.

[Edited 2014-12-24 09:38:14]
 
lakeeffect
Posts: 502
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:41 pm

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Tue Dec 30, 2014 1:48 pm

Perhaps those cut ATL frequencies during the late winter/early spring season were moved to feed additional flights to MCO by Frontier. I think it's very impressive that F9 is going up to 3x daily on peak days for CLE-MCO during that same time. I don't think anyone a year ago could have foreseen that kind of mainline frequency by a new route entrant.

In addition, with AA/US adding a 1x daily mainline to PHL beginning in February (it's currently only loaded through March) I wonder if we'll see more mainline upgauges in 2015 by the legacies? It seems like DL could put a 717 on 1 MSP frequency and upgauging the morning LGA frequency to a 717 would be a competitive advantage against UA and now AA.
 
greenair727
Posts: 1296
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:27 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Tue Dec 30, 2014 2:31 pm

Quote:
CLE-SAN remains uncovered and it'd be interesting if Frontier or Spirit whichever starts it first but likely just summer seasonal, but I assume the SAN far more niche destination between it and the Bay Area.

I'd prefer to see SAN as an AA route. AA/BA could use it as feed into LHR.
 
N766UA
Posts: 8227
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 1999 3:50 am

RE: What's Going On In CLE - Part 8

Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:53 pm

Whatever happened to Porter? A few years ago they specifically mentioned Cleveland as being on their short list. Anyone else remember that?

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