76er
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AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:19 am

 
JU068
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:50 am

Will the HOP fleet remain unchanged? Why do they still operate the CRJ-100 aircraft? I can't imagine it being very efficient.
 
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thekorean
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:09 am

Does HOP have different labor cost structure? More fuel efficient fleet?
 
vfw614
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:20 am

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
In short: HOP will take over all non-hub regional flying.

Doesn't the article suggest that it will take over the non-CDG domestic flights currently operated by mainline? Which more or less means all domestic mainline at ORY and the - relatively few - other domestic flights that neither touch ORY nor CDG.
 
AIR MALTA
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:52 am

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 3):
Doesn't the article suggest that it will take over the non-CDG domestic flights currently operated by mainline? Which more or less means all domestic mainline at ORY and the - relatively few - other domestic flights that neither touch ORY nor CDG.

It seems so. However, I feel that there is more to come. It seems that the MRS-TUN route has been axed for next summer. Are they planning to use HOP or Transavia for that?
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anstar
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:48 am

Not sure why they need Hop and transavia brands. Surely it would make sense to have one regional/lcc flying brand?

And doesn't hop have like 4 different AOC's??

crazy.
 
r2rho
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:37 pm

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
HOP will take over all non-hub regional flying.

Isn't this already the case?   Neither article is very clear about what the change is, other than that HOP will go from 500ish to 800ish flights, so they're definitely taking over something, just not clear exactly what.

Quoting Ju068 (Reply 1):
Why do they still operate the CRJ-100 aircraft?

The last handful are on their way out, if that has not already happened. Same for the ERJ-145's. Those are all leaving as the CRK's and E190's come in. Ultimately the smallest a/c will be the CR7.

Quoting thekorean (Reply 2):
Does HOP have different labor cost structure? More fuel efficient fleet?

Well, to be precise it has three different labor cost structures, and three different fleets. Up to now, HOP has only been a merger in name and brand image; it is still operated as three separate airlines. There would definitely be synergies to gain from there.
 
JU068
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 2:55 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 6):
The last handful are on their way out, if that has not already happened. Same for the ERJ-145's. Those are all leaving as the CRK's and E190's come in. Ultimately the smallest a/c will be the CR7.

Thanks, so where are these additional aircraft coming in from? From what I could see neither AF nor A5 have any regional jets on order.
 
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enilria
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 3:19 pm

AF = Hop
LH = Jump
BA needs Doink
 
hanuise
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:03 pm

It has been announced that Hop! will operate about 100 planes, including about 40 Air France A320 (319-321 ?) and 60 planes from the present Hop! fleet (Airlinair, Britair and Regional). It seems that AF will only keep the CDG domestic flights.

Let's wait to see the Hop! livery on an Airbus ....

More news will certainly come until march 2015.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:15 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
BA needs Doink

Does BA really need its own LCC?
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sxb
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:46 pm

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
In short: HOP will take over all non-hub regional flying.

Isn't that basically what Air Inter used to be? To some extent, I'm starting to wonder if this is not exactly what they would like to do. Stuff Hop with pretty much everything they don't want and later split the company with Hop = new Air Inter and the remaining AF focused around CDG, just like BA with LHR.

Quoting Ju068 (Reply 7):
Well, to be precise it has three different labor cost structures, and three different fleets. Up to now, HOP has only been a merger in name and brand image; it is still operated as three separate airlines. There would definitely be synergies to gain from there.

Classic AF half baked solutions... they are just replicating what LH is doing and to some extent what BA has done... but they don't fully implement the solution, they just want to give the illusion and hope that their unions will accept this kind of in-between solution....

Quoting Byrdluvs747 (Reply 10):
Does BA really need its own LCC?

They already have Vueling.
SXB
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:55 pm

Quoting sxb (Reply 11):
They already have Vueling.

I totally forgot about that.
The 747: The hands who designed it were guided by god.
 
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Aesma
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:24 pm

Quoting anstar (Reply 5):
Not sure why they need Hop and transavia brands. Surely it would make sense to have one regional/lcc flying brand?

And doesn't hop have like 4 different AOC's??

crazy.

Regional and LCC aren't the same thing. A regional airline flies the same kind of people that take your long-haul flights, including businesspeople, celebrities, etc., meaning there needs to be a premium offering even if not great.

LCCs means being nickel and dimed for everything including drinking water.

Quoting Ju068 (Reply 7):
Thanks, so where are these additional aircraft coming in from? From what I could see neither AF nor A5 have any regional jets on order.

A32S from AF.
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r2rho
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:09 pm

Quoting hanuise (Reply 9):
t has been announced that Hop! will operate about 100 planes, including about 40 Air France A320 (319-321 ?) and 60 planes from the present Hop! fleet (Airlinair, Britair and Regional). It seems that AF will only keep the CDG domestic flights.

Wow, that's a pretty major development if it happens! So that would include all the navette flights into ORY as well? As others have said, it sounds like a resurrection of Air Inter.
But what will the pilots have to say about this? There were already massive strikes when something similar was attempted with Transavia, what makes AF amangement think they'll accept HOP more easily?
 
Pihero
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 21, 2014 10:52 pm

HOP! will be made of the ex Britair / Regional / Airliner fleets + the 40 ( -ish) 320 family airplanes ex ORY and the regional bases.
HOP! is a 100% subsidiary to AFKL and the former components have now been merged and managed by AF executives.

The staffing - and the cost structures - of the "regionals" used to be - and still are - much cheaper than AFKL ( The ratio of employees per aircraft is about 1/4 of AFKL, with lower salaries).

Quoting sxb (Reply 11):
Isn't that basically what Air Inter used to be?

The Air Inter network hasn't disappeared at all ; it's just been changed with the changing environment - the TGV in particular.

Quoting sxb (Reply 11):
they are just replicating what LH is doing

I don't think so. That would be Transavia.

Quoting sxb (Reply 11):
they just want to give the illusion and hope that their unions will accept this kind of in-between solution....

You're dead wrong. This is about regaining the domestic market with a fleet closely tailored to the different parts of the network.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 14):
So that would include all the navette flights into ORY as well?

Yes, with the same aircraft... but for reasons of cost, painting these 'Buses is not a priority for the time being.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 6):

Quoting 76er (Thread starter):
HOP will take over all non-hub regional flying.
Isn't this already the case?   Neither article is very clear about what the change is

No. HOP! will be a real airline, with its own fleet, its own management, its own program, managing its own operations integrated into the AFKL group, and no longer three regional entities using an AF franchise. In the near future, the three managing directors of the ex-regionals will disappear.

Quoting vfw614 (Reply 3):
the - relatively few - other domestic flights that neither touch ORY nor CDG.

For the moment HOP! operates some 550 flights / day. That's not my definition of *relatively few*.
Add to that number the Airbus flights ex ORY, BOD, LYS or TLS... and you'll have the 800 flights the article refers to.

Quoting r2rho (Reply 14):
But what will the pilots have to say about this? There were already massive strikes when something similar was attempted with Transavia

The pilots will say nothing. This has absolutely nothing to be compared to the Transavia saga : It uses an already existing structure, an existing fleet with existing pilots who do not threaten their princely privileges.
Lastly, the name and the network of HOP! has been in existence for more than 18 months.
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hOMSaR
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:15 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
AF = Hop
LH = Jump
BA needs Doink

Actually, shouldn't it be Skip?
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
There is no 787-800, nor 787-900 or 747-800. It's 787-8, 787-9, and 747-8.
A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
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FlyHossD
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Sat Nov 22, 2014 4:23 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 8):
AF = Hop
LH = Jump
BA needs Doink
Quoting hoMsar (Reply 16):
Actually, shouldn't it be Skip?

+1

Right, it should be Hop, Skip and Jump.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
sxb
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:15 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 15):
Quoting sxb (Reply 11):
they are just replicating what LH is doing

I don't think so. That would be Transavia.

Hop is pretty much AF's version of Euro/GermanWings: Most non-hub routes are transferred to another entity.
Transavia looks more like Vueling and SunExpress (not completely).

Quoting Pihero (Reply 15):
Quoting sxb (Reply 11):
Isn't that basically what Air Inter used to be?

The Air Inter network hasn't disappeared at all ; it's just been changed with the changing environment - the TGV in particular.

I was more looking at the way Air Inter was structured. Hop is more and more looking like Air Inter v2. Regional p2p routes + ORY as a hub.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 15):
Quoting sxb (Reply 11):
they just want to give the illusion and hope that their unions will accept this kind of in-between solution....

You're dead wrong. This is about regaining the domestic market with a fleet closely tailored to the different parts of the network.

Am I that wrong? Hop won't work if you don't touch the cost structure, which AF has been trying to change but failed in most cases. Don't get me wrong, I know that they have done some changes but it's too slow compare to competition, especially BA. You said it yourself, AF is going to use an existing structure for Hop...

My point is that between the 3 major EU carriers, BA is the only profitable at the moment. AF and LH are obviously looking at replicating BA's strategy = focus on hubs + cut everything not profitable. Regarding Hop, I don't see how this subsidiary is going to be profitable in the close future so I would not be completely surprised if one day the idea of spiltting AF in 2 emerges... A "new" AF built mainly around CDG and Hop as an independent company... This would definitely gives more confidence to AF/KLM group shareholders. I'm aware that the French government will have its word to say, but there have already been signs of them loosing patience. Personally I would not invest in AF at the moment...
SXB
 
tommy1808
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:30 am

Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
My point is that between the 3 major EU carriers, BA is the only profitable at the moment.

LH is profitable

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Pihero
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:35 pm

Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
AF and LH are obviously looking at replicating BA's strategy = focus on hubs + cut everything not profitable.

BA hub ? Compared to LH group and AFKL, this is a very laughable statement.

Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
Regarding Hop, I don't see how this subsidiary is going to be profitable in the close future

Much lower cost structure ( labour costs, third parties handling... smaller modules rightly tailored to the network... etc...).
The odd component is the ORY based 'Bus family... but they are doing the shuttle service which is very close to generating profit.

Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
the idea of spiltting AF in 2 emerges... A "new" AF built mainly around CDG and Hop as an independent company

Isn't that EXACTLY what is happening ?

Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
This would definitely gives more confidence to AF/KLM group shareholders.

Apparently the confidence is there : AF shares went up nearly 5% on the press reports.

Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
I'm aware that the French government will have its word to say,

Please elaborate...

Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
but there have already been signs of them loosing patience

Ditto.

Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
Personally I would not invest in AF at the moment...

I do... and making a killing of it. I have to thank all the critics - the uninformed critics - because I've been able to buy at very low prices, and the graph makes me smile.
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Aquila3
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Sat Nov 22, 2014 12:54 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
I do... and making a killing of it. I have to thank all the critics - the uninformed critics - because I've been able to buy at very low prices, and the graph makes me smile.

Are you in any way commercially connected to AF/KLM?
Is this your opinion or the one of any your commercial partner or employer?
Does your post constitute an explicit advice to the public to invest in AF/KLM?

Just for sake of clarity, you know.
chi vola vale chi vale vola chi non vola è un vile
 
sxb
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:00 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):

Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
AF and LH are obviously looking at replicating BA's strategy = focus on hubs + cut everything not profitable.

BA hub ? Compared to LH group and AFKL, this is a very laughable statement.

So LHR or MAD are no competing hubs compared to FRA or CDG?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
Regarding Hop, I don't see how this subsidiary is going to be profitable in the close future

Much lower cost structure ( labour costs, third parties handling... smaller modules rightly tailored to the network... etc...).
The odd component is the ORY based 'Bus family... but they are doing the shuttle service which is very close to generating profit.

Come on, you know that this is more like touch up to the cost structure than really restructuring it. They haven't taken the hard decisions so far...

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
the idea of spiltting AF in 2 emerges... A "new" AF built mainly around CDG and Hop as an independent company

Isn't that EXACTLY what is happening ?

No, right now Hop remains within AF/KLM group and drags the profits down. What I'm talking about is AF KLM group floating or selling Hop in the future.... in other words they are wrapping in Hop everything they no longer want and they try to get rid of it in the future.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 20):
Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
This would definitely gives more confidence to AF/KLM group shareholders.

Apparently the confidence is there : AF shares went up nearly 5% on the press reports.

Wow.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 21):
Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
I'm aware that the French government will have its word to say,

Please elaborate...

There is a vague rumour around that the French government might be a shareholder of AF KLM group and that sometimes they might get involved in the company's decisions... like selecting the group's CEO with no experience/knowledge of the industry... etc... just rumours.
SXB
 
Pihero
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:31 pm

Quoting sxb (Reply 22):
So LHR or MAD are no competing hubs compared to FRA or CDG?

Not even close to CDG / AMS and FRA / MUC.
Look it up.

Quoting sxb (Reply 22):
Come on, you know that this is more like touch up to the cost structure than really restructuring it.

Your opinion. Just your opinion.

Quoting sxb (Reply 22):
No, right now Hop remains within AF/KLM group and drags the profits down.

Strange : HOP! is, whether you like it or not, part of the AFKL group, as a fully owned subsidiary, just like Transavia opr Martinair.
HOP! is also a lot less expensive than AF domestic. Why the three components were losing money was that they remained on the respective components network. It won't be the case any more : the major part of the merger - because this is a real one - will be assigning the right module to the right city pair(s), everything under the real-time supervision of AF OCC.

Quoting sxb (Reply 22):
in other words they are wrapping in Hop everything they no longer want and they try to get rid of it in the future.

You are quite wrong, here : The disappearing outfit will be AF domestic point-to-point ( See that the 40-odd 'Buese at ORY will be HOP! and no longer AF... Wait for the colour change in the next year.

Quoting sxb (Reply 22):
There is a vague rumour around that the French government might be a shareholder of AF KLM group and that sometimes they might get involved in the company's decisions...

The French government owns 15.9% of the group shares. That is a fact and there is no *vague rumor* about it.
Not enough to have a meaningful power at the board of directors or the Group's decisions.
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sxb
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:07 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 19):

Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
My point is that between the 3 major EU carriers, BA is the only profitable at the moment.

LH is profitable

best regards
Thomas

You are completely right, my bad on this one. Doesn't really help AF's case.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 23):
Your opinion. Just your opinion.

Yes.... my comments only reflect my opinion on AF. Can't we debate about AF?
You sound extremely susceptible and rather short on this subject so I guess that it's pointless discussing too much. Let's see in a few months or in the coming years if AF will manage to turn the situation over. You sound extremely confident about this, but I guess that some people are allowed to raise some doubts.
SXB
 
Pihero
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:22 am

Our difference lies exactly where facts and numbers meet rumours and perceived - just "perceived" - opinionS.
There are tons of articles from financial papers, from the airline site, from investment companies... Have you had the most perfunctory look at them ?

Quoting sxb (Reply 18):
Hop won't work if you don't touch the cost structure, which AF has been trying to change but failed in most cases

Failed in most cases ?
- Reduction of more than 10% of the workforce.
- 20% improvement on productivity in most areas ( except the pilots still )
- 10 to 15% improvement on unit revenue...
- 5 to 10% decrease on unit cost...
Progress has been made so that , without that imbecilic strike, the group would have shown a benefit this year.

Quoting sxb (Reply 24):
You sound extremely susceptible

My right.
I am a bit impatient with people who don't have the first clue about the subject, just relying on bias, rumours and old perceptions, that's true.
Also my right.
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jumpjets
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:24 am

I just wonder what will come of this - will the idea elicit the same response from the unions as the now defunct plans to develop Transavia?
 
r2rho
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:13 pm

OK, this is starting to make sense now... something between a 4U and an IB Express... except it is being created out of the lower cost base of the regional subsidiaries, and will mix regional jets with narrowbodies. It makes sense and hopefully AF can become competitive again on short haul, and in particular, out of the regions and not just Paris. And the ORY navette flights have to compete with the TGV (coming soon to BOD and TLS as well); that is not viable in the current structure. It would also be nice to see the LYS hub return to its former glory, though this plan does not imply anything in that sense yet.

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 26):
I just wonder what will come of this - will the idea elicit the same response from the unions as the now defunct plans to develop Transavia?

That was also my concern. Although this plan sounds more "acceptable" than Transavia, it does effectively mean that 40 mainline narrowbodies will be flown by pilots of the regional subsidiary (imagine that happening in the US with the strict scope clauses!)
 
kl838
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:44 pm

This is step in the good direction, so AF will be flying all hub flights and HOP! will fly all the point to point across France and Europe. I hope the three airlines under HOP! are finally merged into just HOP! with one headquarters and perhaps streamlining the fleet, while getting rid of the gas guzzlers. Based on what I could see the AF-KL group would be like this:

AF - premium traffic/transfer traffic through CDG
HOP! - Point to point traffic throughout France and Europe
Transavia France - Low cost travel/no frills

KL - Less premium/transfer traffic through AMS
KLC - Regional traffic through AMS
Transavia Netherlands - Low cost travel/no frills

AF-KL Cargo - future uncertain?


The group itself seems to be simplifying which is a great move to help cut down costs and confusion. Hopefully HOP! and KLC can work together to standardise their fleet, with 3 or 4 different fleet types it is quite a lot for a regional airlines. Maybe they could simplify it to the E170/90 aircraft and get rid of the CRJ? The F70 has only a few years left at KLC, and I won't be surprised if they get more E jets to replace them. The more the group harmonises between subsidiaries the better it would be in the long run for profitability.
 
Pihero
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:44 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 27):
it does effectively mean that 40 mainline narrowbodies will be flown by pilots of the regional subsidiary (imagine that happening in the US with the strict scope clauses!)

No. The ORY / bases 'Buses will be flown - and for the time being, crewed - by AF personnel. The strict scope clauses apply her'e, too ( a limit of 110 seats modules max for the *regionals* aircrews).

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 26):
the now defunct plans to develop Transavia?

One has to be careful here. The *Transavia Europe* plan will come back in a guise or another.
A week ago, Juniac said :
" « ce serait bien d’avoir un peu plus de 150 avions si on veut prétendre avoir accès à l’Europe. » Le président du groupe Air France-KLM ne voit que deux possibilités, « qui ne sont pas exclusives » : la (difficile) croissance organique ou la conclusion d’un partenariat ou d’une acquisition."
"It will be good to have more than 150 aircraft if we wanted to have access to Europe.
There are only two possibilities - which are not mutually exclusive : the - difficult -in-house growth or the conclusion of a partnership or outright acquisition."


Frrom the Journal de l'Aviation Transavia the Fifth Low Cost

An acquisition in the immediate future ? Probably not with todays financial situation... but who knows ?
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Pihero
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:59 pm

Quoting kl838 (Reply 28):
I hope the three airlines under HOP! are finally merged into just HOP! with one headquarters and perhaps streamlining the fleet,

As the merger has been implemented since 31st March,2013, you're a bit late on the news.
There will be only one headquarter, in Montreuil.
Airlinair, Britair and Regional do not exist any more ( not fully completed in Airlinair case ).

Quoting kl838 (Reply 28):
AF-KL group would be like this:

AF - premium traffic/transfer traffic through CDG
HOP! - Point to point traffic throughout France and Europe
Transavia France - Low cost travel/no frills

KL - Less premium/transfer traffic through AMS
KLC - Regional traffic through AMS
Transavia Netherlands - Low cost travel/no frills

  

Pretrty much, yes.
... although I have a feeling that Transavia France and Transavia Netherlands will eventually get rid of the countries' difference.
Contrail designer
 
kl838
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:12 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 30):
As the merger has been implemented since 31st March,2013, you're a bit late on the news.
There will be only one headquarter, in Montreuil.
Airlinair, Britair and Regional do not exist any more ( not fully completed in Airlinair case ).

Ah thank you I wasn't aware that this took place, I was under the assumption they were operating separately but just under the unified HOP! brand.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 30):
Pretty much, yes.
... although I have a feeling that Transavia France and Transavia Netherlands will eventually get rid of the countries' difference.

Yes, I do hope that the group is able to establish Transavia as a powerful low-cost player in the industry, hopefully without much interference from the pilots union.

The group needs to make these drastic changes to adapt to the changing market place, however I do hope that once these changes are implemented, and the group is in a more stable position that we do end up seeing more benefits as frequent customers. Rather than just focusing on one time customers, it would make more sense to attract more frequent fliers by actually enhancing flying blue in a proper way and not taking away benefits and calling it an enhancement.
 
mozart
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:27 pm

Thanks Pihero, very interesting as usual.

I just have two factual questions:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 30):
As the merger has been implemented since 31st March,2013, you're a bit late on the news.
There will be only one headquarter, in Montreuil.
Airlinair, Britair and Regional do not exist any more ( not fully completed in Airlinair case ).

I understand that the companies have been merged. Does that also mean that all employees have identical employment contracts? Are they all in one employment pool? Obviously not for pilots who fly different aircraft, but could a flight attendant be flying on a (what used to be) Britair CRJ-1000 one day and on a (what used to be) Regional E-190 the next? Or are there still separate silos of FA employment pools that basically represent the historical three airlines that today make up HOP?

Also, was there any significant overhead left in the various HQs of Britair, Regional and Airlinair? What has happened to these people? Did they leave or were they integrated into the new structure?

And lastly, are all three carriers now on the same AOC?

Quoting Pihero (Reply 30):
.. although I have a feeling that Transavia France and Transavia Netherlands will eventually get rid of the countries' difference.

That would be good for them. But how will that work given that there is an agreement between the AF pilots and AF management about Transavia France having only a certain number of planes - will that agreement be tossed into the bin, or will they merely use "Dutch" Transavia planes and make them fly from airports in France?

And will that also mean that Transavia will morphe a bit from being basically a holiday destinations carrier to what companies like easyjet and Norwegian are in addition to holiday traffic, namely linking important business centres and often times competing with legacy carriers?

Thanks for your insights
 
Pihero
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:17 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 32):
understand that the companies have been merged. Does that also mean that all employees have identical employment contracts?

AFAIK, it's the plan and negotiations are on going

Quoting mozart (Reply 32):
Or are there still separate silos of FA employment pools that basically represent the historical three airlines that today make up HOP?

That's the situation as it is today. There should be only one pool next year.
BTW, flight attendants are, again AFAIK, limited to three types on their licence and I don't know how the fleeting will be implemented.

Quoting mozart (Reply 32):
Did they leave or were they integrated into the new structure?

There will be some PDVs, in my opinion. I'll enquire about that subject.

Quoting mozart (Reply 32):
And lastly, are all three carriers now on the same AOC?

Yes

Quoting mozart (Reply 32):
That would be good for them. But how will that work given that there is an agreement between the AF pilots and AF management about Transavia France having only a certain number of planes

The management / SNPL agreement is a win-win contract for all.
We'll know on the 3rd of December when the result of the on going referendum will be published... A majority for it seems to be in the cards ( but then, I've already been proven wrong and being an airline pilot is no longer a sign of sanity or intelligence    )
Anyway, the near future plan is for 27 (?) new 737s into Transavia France fleet, in fact just about tripling it... What I see coming is a consolidation of a Transavia posting as part of an Air France pilot's career. I really don't see why that fleet could not be expanded further, especially noiw that Juniac has made it clear that most - if not all - the short haul growth will come from Transavia, until such time HOP! had recovered part of the business traffic from Easyjet.
Promotions will not come from anywhere else outside Transavia.

Quoting mozart (Reply 32):
And will that also mean that Transavia will morph a bit from being basically a holiday destinations carrier

Maybe, but remember : whatever the routes, Transavia is and will remain a low cost airline, maybe similar to Easyjet and Vueling ( I don't know anything about Norwegian ).
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mozart
Posts: 2154
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:04 pm

Thanks for your contributions.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 33):
Maybe, but remember : whatever the routes, Transavia is and will remain a low cost airline, maybe similar to Easyjet and Vueling ( I don't know anything about Norwegian ).

But that exactly was my point: Transavia is NOT like Easyjet and Vueling. Easyjet and Vueling are an alternative to legacy carriers and business travelers on numerous trunk routes, Transavia is not.

Just look at the network of easyjet from Paris (sample routes that are flown daily, often several times daily): London, Geneva, Copenhagen, Berlin, Prague, Budapest, Milan, Venice, Rome, Nice, Toulouse, Barcelona, Madrid, Lisbon, Oporto, Athens

Compare that to what Transavia offers from Paris, none of these routes are daily: Prague, Budapest, Athens, Venice, Barcelona, Madrid, Lisbon. All other destinations are leisure destinations. A similar picture is for Transavia flights from Amsterdam: destinations are primarily leisure destinations, not at all interesting for business travel.

Vueling is similar to easyjet: numerous routes between business centres, often with several flights a day.

easyjet and Vueling offer "premium services" where (for more money) people can get a row with the middle seat kept free (Vueling Optima), fast lane access and some other goodies with a special card (easyjet plus), at some airports they offer access to lounges, etc.

I am not saying that one concept is better than another. All I am saying is that Transavia is an LCC for leisure routes, Easyjet and Vueling have a much higher proportion of trunk routes where they compete against legacy carriers, Transavia does not.

Hence my question: when it is growing, will Transavia morphe into more of a Easyjet or Vueling-type of airline linking big business centres, or will it grow on its current positioning of serving leisure destinations?
 
Pihero
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 34):
Hence my question: when it is growing, will Transavia morphe into more of a Easyjet or Vueling-type of airline linking big business centres,

I understood and agree with your assessment first time.
For the time being, Transavia caters for the leisure market, which can be developed a lot further.
HOP! deals mainly with French domestic and near areas ( Germany Switzerland, .. etc...) for business and VFR traffic.
There is for the moment a really thick line dividing the two airlines... and it will last a while, if only because Transavia needs a bigger fleet.
Secondly, Air France needs to try and recover the business clients lost to Easyjet and the best bet would be HOP!
What is interesting in a strategic way is that in Francxe Easyjet has a two-way assault on AF : VFR and business from the legacy traditional centers (ORY, TLS, MRS...). But it doesn't have all the cards : only 6% penetration of AF's lines and, in spite of its size, unable to cope with a traffic similar to AF's : frequency and slots, a situation which has no immediate cure for EZ.
The proof was made during the strike : EZ was just able to provide a few thousand seats and improve its results by some 1.5 M € : EZ has a growth plan which is a lot more conservative than most people think ( not surprising, it's very well managed ).
AFKL strategy is about fighting the likes of Easyjet and Vueling on their fortes : HOP! and City for the point to point - and business - and Transavia on the leisure market... That can only happen when Transavia has a much bigger fleet.
Transavia already matches Easyjet unit costs... HOP! could do so ( it requires a leaning-up of the staff base, use third party handling, a slight improvement in productivity, all in the business plan already ).

The next two years will be interesting.

The next airline to watch is, IMHO, Wizzair...
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gkirk
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:06 am

How long will CityJet continue to operate for AF on routes such as DUB and NCL?
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
r2rho
Posts: 3096
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 10:13 pm

RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:31 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 29):
No. The ORY / bases 'Buses will be flown - and for the time being, crewed - by AF personnel. The strict scope clauses apply her'e, too ( a limit of 110 seats modules max for the *regionals* aircrews).

I see. So at least initially, the HOP efficiency gain would not come from changing pilot contracts, but as you say:

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
a leaning-up of the staff base, use third party handling, a slight improvement in productivity, all in the business plan already ).
Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
For the time being, Transavia caters for the leisure market, which can be developed a lot further.

Agree. AF seemed to have tried this with its short-lived regional strategy a year or two ago, launching less than daily flights to various tourist destinations, but likely failed due to its cost base, not lack of a market.
 
zoulastar
Posts: 58
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:48 pm

RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Wed Nov 26, 2014 11:29 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 35):
But that exactly was my point: Transavia is NOT like Easyjet and Vueling. Easyjet and Vueling are an alternative to legacy carriers and business travelers on numerous trunk routes, Transavia is not.

Let's say that Transavia is like Easyjet used to be years ago : a low cost carrier. It's been only a year that about 25% of their passengers are business passengers.

So, once again at Air France, we do have a few years delay but we'll manage something eventually!  
Quoting r2rho (Reply 37):
How long will CityJet continue to operate for AF on routes such as DUB and NCL?

Cityjet has now been sold by AF. Those two routes are now codeshared between those two airlines.

Quoting mozart (Reply 34):
and being an airline pilot is no longer a sign of sanity or intelligence

As an AF pilot, and having already voted in for the new deal with Transavia, I dont' feel myself concerned about this, but that comment might be a little bit too radical, don't you think?  
 
Pihero
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:55 pm

Quoting zoulastar (Reply 38):
As an AF pilot, and having already voted in for the new deal with Transavia, I dont' feel myself concerned about this, but that comment might be a little bit too radical, don't you think?

Congratulations...
... but 500 million € have proven my point.
Don't you think ?   

Quoting zoulastar (Reply 38):
Let's say that Transavia is like Easyjet used to be years ago : a low cost carrier.

EasyJet is still a LoCo. Only the customer targets have changed.
But thge development of that *strategy for the business traveller* is hampered by slot availability... Fortunately for the AFKL group.

Quoting zoulastar (Reply 38):
Quoting r2rho (Reply 37):
How long will CityJet continue to operate for AF on routes such as DUB and NCL?

Cityjet has now been sold by AF

Apologies : I wrote too fast, as usual : I meant KLM CITY Hooper.
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zoulastar
Posts: 58
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:02 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 39):
Congratulations...
... but 500 million € have proven my point.
Don't you think ?  

On that very particular point, we couldn't agree more. I was not on strike.  
 
Pihero
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:55 pm

Quoting zoulastar (Reply 40):
On that very particular point, we couldn't agree more. I was not on strike.

A pilot just as I like them.

Rgds
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mozart
Posts: 2154
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:22 pm

Quoting zoulastar (Reply 38):
As an AF pilot, and having already voted in for the new deal with Transavia, I dont' feel myself concerned about this, but that comment might be a little bit too radical, don't you think?

...except that it wasn't me who wrote that, but another (ex?-) AF pilot  

In that entire story I wouldn't actually accuse the pilots of being senseless. They act in (at least their short term) interest, at least in they way of viewing the world. Can't blame them. What I find much more worrying is AF management. Having the pilots dictate which network Transavia can operate is a new low in management not being on top of things.
 
Pihero
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:31 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 42):
In that entire story I wouldn't actually accuse the pilots of being senseless. They act in (at least their short term) interest, at least in they way of viewing the world.

Rubbish ! ' twas an attempt at political posturing in order to regain the high ground with the pilots - especially trying to reconquer that lost representative position.
The rest was just then usual bull we'd find with unions like the CGT or SUD.
Your analysis is, I'm afraid, very incomplete.

Quoting mozart (Reply 42):
What I find much more worrying is AF management. Having the pilots dictate which network Transavia can operate is a new low in management not being on top of things.

You should have a look at scope clauses every airline with a third level feeder line has with its pilots. There is nothing new here and as a matter of fact being in existence for forty years or so : these agreements cover the max size of the feeders' airplanes, posting of mainline pilots there... etc...
It's only the way the SNPL top mixed Transavia France with a plan of Transavia [b]Europe/b] in order to muddle the situation that made the negotiations just about impossible... and we know very well that the Transavia Europe chapter wasn't at all what the clowns wanted...
Result : they got nothing.
The referendum on Transavia - France- is IMO a way for the SNPL to exit gracefully that sorry period.
Will the pilots take it ?

Back to thye subjkect : Air France has announced today the new cabin for the 320 family.
the new medium haul cabin

Pics are here

Very nice !
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RealTom
Posts: 5
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RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:45 am

I m not a pilot and fully disagree with pilots strike. I also know that a lot of people tends to look only at social bashing instead of having a global view of the matter.

First of all : Look at the way the French territories have been managed all over the last decades with the increase of Highways and TGV lines. Meaning that you either use the TGV or for 20mn more you go a bigger airport that offers best services and products instead of taking a regional liner with transit point to go to your final destination.

Second point : look at the market : the LCC have taken over the most important transversal kines and any times soon the Bus line inside the territory will be an open market.

If you look at the network, we have seen an optimisation of regional network with the failure or closure of CFE hub when AF took over Regional, NCE hub with Air Littoral failure and now we see that LYS hub is going down as well. Remeber as well that in the mid 90s you still had : AirLib with the former TAT network and even so till Air Inter brand closure, you could see AF, IT and Air Lib and AOM on some busy ie NCE. Finally we can say that we have a mature and very sophisticated network that allows better connections, better prices and finally a "good or maybe mature" Network management of French territories.

So, based on that this solution which finally consists in creating a virtual company based on ex TAT (Air Lib), Regional (Flandres Air and affiliates + Regioonal) and Air Inter network which competes against low costs on some markets (Volotea especially and Easy) and the TGV.

Market wise, if you look at TGV : it is becoming very expensive so if they offer good price for VFR at the back of the plan, it should work, on only against TGV but against LCC, or Bus.

Network wise, using the appropriate airplanes and the appropriate is a great opportunity.

But then we come back to the social, at a point they would an integration but decrease costs, and Hop maybe the combination of Air Inter and TAT with lower costs.

Will see, but let them try before critisizing...
 
mozart
Posts: 2154
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 12:21 am

RE: AF To Restructure Regional Network

Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:11 am

Quoting Pihero (Reply 43):
Rubbish ! ' twas an attempt at political posturing in order to regain the high ground with the pilots - especially trying to reconquer that lost representative position.
The rest was just then usual bull we'd find with unions like the CGT or SUD.
Your analysis is, I'm afraid, very incomplete.

Point taken, including the "rubbish"   I just wanted to get a way out of a quote that wasn't mine without calling the pilots all kinds of bad things.

Quoting Pihero (Reply 43):
You should have a look at scope clauses every airline with a third level feeder line has with its pilots. There is nothing new here and as a matter of fact being in existence for forty years or so : these agreements cover the max size of the feeders' airplanes, posting of mainline pilots there... etc...

I am familiar with scope clauses, but what I mean is not things like "planes over xx seats must be flown by mainline pilots". What I have in mind are restrictions to network development that go beyond the contractual agreement between mainline and regional subsidiary, but where network planning is still under the full and sole authority of one entity who can deploy planes on routes the way it things is best for the company. And there I have never seen anything like the recent agreement between pilots and AF management which in effect ties the hands of AF network managers (I am basing this on what I read on the SNPL website http://www.snpl.com/bureaux_entrepri...tes/lire/3667/). There are clauses in there which restrict Transavia's flying to destinations which are also served by AF mainline. By comparison, if you look at the more successful LCC-offspring of legacy airlines (i.e. Vueling, Germanwings), they are given a restriction not to fly to the respective hubs (=Madrid, Frankfurt, Munich respectively) but other than that do what they want. And in the case of Vueling, there is even direct competition with IB mainline on some routes. The equivalent of that in the case of AF would have been to tell Transavia not to fly to CDG, and other than that do what it thinks is best - including serving from ORY destinations that AF serves from CDG.

Moreover, I do not know of any other airline that has clauses which limit the growth of a subsidiary to a certain fleet size. I do not say that they do not exist, I just don't know any, and I would be grateful if someone could provide some examples so as to enlighten me. I do know for a fact that neither Vueling nor Germanwings have that restriction. Nor Transavia (Netherlands) if I am correctly informed. But Transavia France does. If Vueling or Germanwings do well, great, they grow their fleet. If Transavia France does well, they hit a ceiling.

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