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F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:18 pm
by BatonOps

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 10:49 pm
by enilria
Feather knocking me over

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Sun Nov 23, 2014 11:39 pm
by jeepyjeep
Yet Frontier is keeping routes like DEN-TYS.

I'm not happy about this, but then again, I realize that Frontier is a business, not a charity. I flew DEN-MDT quite a bit and I'm not flying to an alternate airport just to continue to fly with Frontier. In fact, I don't think any of the nearby airports have Frontier DEN service anyway.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 12:12 am
by tom11
F9 is a very different airline today, then what they were when they started MDT service in 2012. It's good to know the routes are profitable -- to DEN and MCO, perhaps WN should take interest in the market.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:41 am
by rtalk25
Quoting jeepyjeep (Reply 2):
I don't think any of the nearby airports have Frontier DEN service anyway.

DCA but that's a hike. I wouldn't be surprised to see F9 starting BWI-MCO and BWI-MIA though.

Quoting tom11 (Reply 3):
It's good to know the routes are profitable -- to DEN and MCO, perhaps WN should take interest in the market.

WN might figure MDT pax will find WN over at BWI. However, WN could rule MDT given that it has that pax following those pax familiar with WN, and if service was offered with MDW, DEN, MCO and maybe ATL (against DL), it'd be far more comprehensive domestically than any one of the legacies.

It's not like the legacies have a upper hand with air service to LGA or DCA like other markets where nonstop access is important to be relevant.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:00 am
by compliancecheck
Did AirTran fly MDT-MCO at one point or am I making that up? Sad to see Frontier leave Harrisburg. It is a convenient little airport, and apparently was able to sustain the service profitably. I don't think we'll see new air service in response to this, however.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:04 am
by jeepyjeep
Yeah, AirTran used to fly MDT-MCO and I believe MDT-FLL seasonally as well.

I'm hoping maybe they can convince jetBlue to give MDT-MCO a try.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:18 am
by Legend757
Quoting jeepyjeep (Reply 2):

Yet Frontier is keeping routes like DEN-TYS.

F9 is cutting the following cities from DEN, all between now and Jan 6, 2015

BFL, BIS, BMI, CID, EUG, FAT, FLL, GEG, GSO, IDA, LGA, MDT, MDW, MOT, MSO, PHF, PSP, SBA and TYS

MDW, FLL are replaced by service to ORD and MIA respectively.

Additionally, most of the remaining cities serviced by F9 out of DEN will see a dramatic frequency cut.

Essentially, the cities that will sustain the most loss from F9 and DEN are markets that are not big O&D fro DEN.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:22 am
by jeepyjeep
Quoting Legend757 (Reply 7):
F9 is cutting the following cities from DEN, all between now and Jan 6, 2015

BFL, BIS, BMI, CID, EUG, FAT, FLL, GEG, GSO, IDA, LGA, MDT, MDW, MOT, MSO, PHF, PSP, SBA and TYS

According to FlyFrontier.com, DEN-TYS is seasonal and it ends in January 2015, but comes back in April 2015 and is bookable until the window ends in August 2015.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:42 am
by Legend757
Quoting jeepyjeep (Reply 8):
According to FlyFrontier.com, DEN-TYS is seasonal and it ends in January 2015, but comes back in April 2015 and is bookable until the window ends in August 2015.

I missed that one. Thanks.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:56 am
by UA444
Would love to see UA send an Airbus or 737 from Denver to Harrisburg. They have (had?) mainline from Chicago, would be great to see it here.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:00 am
by iowaman
Quoting Legend757 (Reply 7):
F9 is cutting the following cities from DEN, all between now and Jan 6, 2015

BFL, BIS, BMI, CID, EUG, FAT, FLL, GEG, GSO, IDA, LGA, MDT, MDW, MOT, MSO, PHF, PSP, SBA and TYS
Quoting Legend757 (Reply 9):
I missed that one. Thanks.

DEN-CID also returns in April 3x weekly.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:22 am
by dbo861
It seems that with all of these seasonal cuts there will be a lot of slack in their schedule. Do they have many seasonal adds or will there be a lot of aircraft sitting around during the winter months?

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:44 am
by runningonempty
Seems a shame for the Harrisburg airport. I think that Allegiant may see benefit in the market despite its' engagement in other nearby markets. I could imagine a SFB flight at least. As for DEN, unlikely to see that return in the coming years, as air travel at mid size airports continues to decline...

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:02 am
by jeepyjeep
Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 13):
Seems a shame for the Harrisburg airport. I think that Allegiant may see benefit in the market despite its' engagement in other nearby markets. I could imagine a SFB flight at least. As for DEN, unlikely to see that return in the coming years, as air travel at mid size airports continues to decline...

Allegiant is already at MDT -- they fly MDT-SFB and MDT-PIE.

I agree with you that it is unlikely to see DEN service return, but I'm holding out hope for another carrier to fly to MCO and/or to see additional destinations added in the future. It's a great airport and I think there is a lot of potential.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:12 am
by runningonempty
Quoting jeepyjeep (Reply 14):

My bad. I wasn't sure and seemed to have forgotten it. It really is a great station. I'm not sure if another carrier will take over MCO with allegiant's being there. I am not as aware of that area of PA. IS it as big a market as ABE or AVP? I can't imagine, however, it doesn't expecerience leakage to PHL

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:30 am
by MesaFlyGuy
Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 15):
IS it as big a market as ABE or AVP?

I'm pretty sure MDT is bigger than both AVP and ABE.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:11 am
by usairways85
Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 16):
I'm pretty sure MDT is bigger than both AVP and ABE.

MDT metro area population ~549,000.
Lehigh Valley metro area population: ~821,000
Scranton metro area population ~563,000

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:50 am
by Buddys747
Quoting jeepyjeep (Reply 6):
Yeah, AirTran used to fly MDT-MCO and I believe MDT-FLL seasonally as well.

And MDT-ATL two summers.

Quoting jeepyjeep (Reply 6):
I'm hoping maybe they can convince jetBlue to give MDT-MCO a try.

I would really like to see this happen for the Florida and Boston Market.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 10):
Would love to see UA send an Airbus or 737 from Denver to Harrisburg. They have (had?) mainline from Chicago, would be great to see it here.

They do fly two mainline to ORD daily in addition to E145. It changes quite often between A320's and 737's. I would love to see UA pick up the route, but I have my doubts.

Quoting jeepyjeep (Reply 14):
I agree with you that it is unlikely to see DEN service return, but I'm holding out hope for another carrier to fly to MCO and/or to see additional destinations added in the future. It's a great airport and I think there is a lot of potential

Agree! I would love to see JetBlue, one could only hope.

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 16):
Quoting RunningOnEmpty (Reply 15):IS it as big a market as ABE or AVP?
I'm pretty sure MDT is bigger than both AVP and ABE.
Quoting usairways85 (Reply 17):
MDT metro area population ~549,000.
Lehigh Valley metro area population: ~821,000
Scranton metro area population ~563,000

I think Metro market is often misleading as York county, Lebanon, Lancaster and counties to the north are usually not included in the Harrisburg Metro, yet there is quite a draw from those areas. If you look at passenger numbers, MDT surpasses ABE by quite a bit, and way more than AVP.

I wish F9 the best of luck, I see success in CLE, CVG. However I wonder there strategy for PHL, PHX, etc. The middle markets really helped keep F9 going while they restructured, and this is sort of a slap in the face in my opinion.
There's only two options to replace DEN, UA and WN. I doubt either will happen. It will be back to connections for some, and a trip to BWI for others, really hurts for MDT.

Quoting Legend757 (Reply 7):
Essentially, the cities that will sustain the most loss from F9 and DEN are markets that are not big O&D fro DEN.

Just my opinion, can't site source but I believe over 80% of MDT-DEN traffic was O+D.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:02 pm
by max550
That's too bad, I've used the non-stop a number of times. Can't say I'm totally shocked though as I just picked up a RT for Dec 5-8 for $152. Even adding in Frontier's fees ~$250 seems too low for a 4000mi round trip.

Quoting UA444 (Reply 10):
Would love to see UA send an Airbus or 737 from Denver to Harrisburg. They have (had?) mainline from Chicago, would be great to see it here.
Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 18):
They do fly two mainline to ORD daily in addition to E145. It changes quite often between A320's and 737's. I would love to see UA pick up the route, but I have my doubts.

That would be great, although I have my doubts as well. That being said, every flight I've been on ORD-MDT has a bunch of pax coming from DEN even with the F9 service. Perhaps without F9 UA will see an opening...

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:32 pm
by Buddys747
Quoting max550 (Reply 19):
That's too bad, I've used the non-stop a number of times. Can't say I'm totally shocked though as I just picked up a RT for Dec 5-8 for $152. Even adding in Frontier's fees ~$250 seems too low for a 4000mi round trip.

They were not that low most of the season, during the summer I was finding them at well over $200 each way. I have noticed the fare come down for the last two months or so.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:37 pm
by jeepyjeep
Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 20):
I have noticed the fare come down for the last two months or so.


My guess is because the schedule became somewhat crappy (in my opinion). It's down to Monday/Friday/Saturday. I chose not to use the Frontier service for the upcoming holidays because of the schedule. I'm on UA instead, even though I'm normally a huge Frontier fan. Didn't want to compromise my schedule and time with my family in PA.

I flew that route quite a bit earlier this year and most of the time, fares were between $350-$450 rt depending on date.

[Edited 2014-11-24 05:39:54]

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:02 pm
by max550
Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 20):
They were not that low most of the season, during the summer I was finding them at well over $200 each way. I have noticed the fare come down for the last two months or so.

Yeah, $150 isn't normal, it was closer to $450-500 for a RT over the summer. Still seems like they could be charging more considering the cheapest one-stop on UA is $110 more (or $250 more on the days F9 doesn't fly).

Quoting jeepyjeep (Reply 21):
My guess is because the schedule became somewhat crappy (in my opinion). It's down to Monday/Friday/Saturday. I chose not to use the Frontier service for the upcoming holidays because of the schedule. I'm on UA instead, even though I'm normally a huge Frontier fan. Didn't want to compromise my schedule and time with my family in PA.

That's probably a big part of it. Even when the schedule was better (4x per week I think?) I'd still often end up on UA one-way since F9 didn't fly on the exact dates I was looking for.

It would be very interesting to see if a daily UA 73G or 319 could work on MDT-DEN. Considering F9 was doing it profitably with limited connection opportunities you'd think UA could make it work as well.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:59 pm
by usairways85
Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 18):
I think Metro market is often misleading as York county, Lebanon, Lancaster and counties to the north are usually not included in the Harrisburg Metro, yet there is quite a draw from those areas. If you look at passenger numbers, MDT surpasses ABE by quite a bit, and way more than AVP.

Fair enough, I didn't realize that MDT had about double the paxs in 2013 as compared to ABE. ABE probably bleeds a number of people to PHL and EWR.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:35 pm
by max550
Quoting usairways85 (Reply 23):
Fair enough, I didn't realize that MDT had about double the paxs in 2013 as compared to ABE. ABE probably bleeds a number of people to PHL and EWR.

Definitely. It's just over an hour from ABE to PHL or EWR, plus TTN is about the same distance. Closest major airport to MDT is BWI at about 1.5hrs, then PHL and IAD about two hours away.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:44 pm
by Legend757
Quoting Legend757 (Reply 7):
F9 is cutting the following cities from DEN, all between now and Jan 6, 2015

BFL, BIS, BMI, CID, EUG, FAT, FLL, GEG, GSO, IDA, LGA, MDT, MDW, MOT, MSO, PHF, PSP, SBA and TYS

F9 has updated this since I checked only a week ago.

The following service has gone seasonal instead of being cut altogether which was what was originally seen on their flight schedules. Interesting to me.

BIS, CID, GSO, MSO and TYS

The remainder still appear to be cut.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:27 pm
by rtalk25
Quoting max550 (Reply 24):
Closest major airport to MDT is BWI at about 1.5hrs

Although York County is at an easy ~1 hour commute of BWI. But, MDT's catchment of other counties is significant enough to be far enough from BWI/PHL and have enough potential residents, especially if Berks County PA and Pottsville and Hagerstown are extended into consideration where MDT might be the closest airport.

Perhaps Allegiant can use F9's dismissal of medium markets for Allegiant to grow in them. I think FLL and LAS could be added possibly, made ABE-FLL and MDT-LAS, MDT-FLL and increase of MDT-SFB service.

[Edited 2014-11-24 09:44:12]

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:00 pm
by MIflyer12
Quoting UA444 (Reply 10):
Would love to see UA send an Airbus or 737 from Denver to Harrisburg.

Ha ha hah! A quick check of UA departures by equipment from DEN today shows nothing so far/such a small metro getting mainline equipment. STL and ATL are seeing CR7s and E70s.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:25 pm
by Buddys747
Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 27):
Ha ha hah! A quick check of UA departures by equipment from DEN today shows nothing so far/such a small metro getting mainline equipment. STL and ATL are seeing CR7s and E70s.

To be fare, DEN-ATL sees 6 daily on DL all mainline, and 4 daily on WN. DEN-STL sees 4 daily on WN and 2 daily on F9. I'm not sure this is an equal comparison, at MDT UA would have ZERO direct competition. UA has express service from ORD to cities much larger than MDT, it just depends on other factors. Harrisburg is not a small market by any means.
That being said, I still have my doubts it will happen.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:37 pm
by MesaFlyGuy
Quoting Buddys747 (Reply 28):
To be fare, DEN-ATL sees 6 daily on DL all mainline

8 daily in the summer too.

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Tue Nov 25, 2014 10:10 pm
by panova98
People, people, people!

We are talking about the airline industry here. I don't trust any carrier, but if you see the names Allegiant and Frontier, you know what you are in for...here today, gone tomorrow. It has nothing to do with Harrisburg. It's just the way these types of carriers operate.

Frontier in August started lots of service out of Dulles. Most routes are still operating but for how long? Usually not daily service...just a couple days a week, typically a single flight.

These types of carriers are in it for the quick bucks. Didn't the MDT airport authority get a SCASCD fedgrant to promote/support the Denver service? How has that money been spent?

There are other carriers, like SunAir International, or is it SunAir Express, flying under the EAS program. Now, they fly from Lancaster to Pittsburgh 3 times a day, and to Dulles, twice a day in little 9-Pax, Piper Chieftains. SunAir gets a little over $800 for every takeoff from LNS, IAD, and PIT. (I've flown them several times to/from Dulles. Cute, but not everyone's cup of tea, typically as the only paying customer, but to be fair my flights were really re-pepositioning flights for the LNS customers. If you enjoy flying and really like to see the beautiful south-central PA countryside and local power plants of every type, it's $40+ well-spent.)

SunAir is doing Altoona-PIT and Jamestown, NY-PIT as well under the EAS.

Then the biggies. They want to serve every community, including Harrisburg. Can't afford to fly in the their own planes most of the time so they contract with some regionals, as cheap as they can get from the regional industry, which pays pilot salaries (don't ask! It's either McDonalds or flying!). All the while, carriers like UA, at least up to Sept. 30, where charging the Fed travelers $364 each way under the GSA contract air fare program to fly MDT to Dulles. And MDT service to PIT? I wonder why UA doesn't code-share with AMTRAK and charge customers $500 each way!

But hey, quite an industry so many of us love to hate!

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 12:51 am
by GentFromAlaska
Quoting jeepyjeep (Reply 2):
I don't think any of the nearby airports have Frontier DEN service anyway.

TTN-MDT is 123 road miles. A little lengthy but not out the question. A family friends son who is a student at Penn State drove to TTN from State College, PA for the TTN-BNA flight. Not anymore

From TTN it appears two flight options exist; TTN-MDW-DEN or TTN-STL-DEN seasonally.

I saw a DL fare MDT-DTW-DEN pricing for $300.00 round-trip on a couple of random dates in Spring 2015

RE: F9 Pulling Out Of MDT

Posted: Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:20 pm
by jeepyjeep
Although it probably won't happen, I suppose that Frontier could always come back to MDT in the future when they have more aircraft in the fleet, though I suspect MDT-DEN might have been a little heavy on connecting passengers.

I spoke with a few friends and relatives in PA over the past few days and they are generally sad to see Frontier go -- the general sentiment is that Frontier offered a great service on mainline aircraft. My parents (who live near Pottsville) mentioned that they will go back to flying WN out of PHL once Frontier leaves MDT, as they don't want to deal with regional jets and connections in ORD in order to go anywhere. (their quote, not mine)