BER: Will Not Open Before 2018

flyingturtle · Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:04 pm

http://www.zeit.de/wirtschaft/2014-1...-flughafen-eroeffnung-verzoegerung

Hartmut Mehdorn, CEO of the "airport", says that BER will not be opened before 2018.

Until May 2015, the revised plans for the de-smoking system are to be sent to the government agencies for approval, which will take some months. Then, the revision of the de-smoking system has to be published so any construction company in the EU can bid for that contract... then it will be built.

The construction approval for the airport itself will run out in 2016. If BER isn't completed in 2016, a new construction application has to be written, which then has to follow the laws and safety norms of 2016...

One of the biggest problems are the cables laid in the crawl spaces. Hardly any electrical/electronic cable has been laid according to the construction plans.

The saga continues.

David

enilria · Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:08 pm

It should say...

"BER Will Not Open Before (DATE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK)"

B8887 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:30 pm

Holy cow...

I think it was last Thursday or Friday that I read somewhere that will not open before before 2017...

If it continues like this...

B8887

KarelXWB · Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:31 pm

Mankind will land on Mars before the new BER airport will open.

EPA001 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:37 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Thread starter):
The saga continues.

And it has become a very sad saga.... I was on a tour of the new airport in 2012 just months before the then planned opening. That already seems so long gone just 2.5 years later....

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 3):
Mankind will land on Mars before the new BER airport will open.

Who knows......?

BD338 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:07 pm

What an unbelievable mess. For a project that was practically "finished" to now being 6 years late and apparently not even big enough to handle the projected passenger numbers is quite incredible. The smoke ventilation system gets a lot of the blame but is it really just that? I work in construction management and know that retrofitting something can be a nightmare but this seems excessive, 6 years to fix it, demolition and starting again would have been quicker! I assume more to this story than meets the eye.

flyingturtle · Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:08 pm

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 4):
a very sad saga

Yes.

But I don't really care as long as TXL is open and the easily reachable roof parking at Kurt Schumacher Platz in Berlin-Reinickendorf remains a good spotting location, and the kebab shop stills my hunger.

An Air Berlin plane descending over that shopping mall.

I just feel bad for the taxpayers...

David

[Edited 2014-11-24 06:09:54]

PanHAM · Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:22 pm

I win a case of champagne when Berlin becomes the only capital City of it's size that can reached only by surface.

The smoke Ventilation is not the only Problem. Seems like the System must be redesigned from scratch and that the idea to vent the smoke through downward flowing vents was a hoax by someone who does not even have an engineering degree. Approved by someone in the supervisory board imposing as Mayor.Smoke goes up and that might be the ewasiest to redo the System the traditional way.

Which takes time and the authorities, which is the County with a County seat some 90 km to the east, work closely with Berlin Airports. But what helps it when the building Permit expires in 2016? And what about TXL, can it be run indefinately?

Miami · Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:26 pm

I think there's a greater chance of me winning the lottery than BER opening.

PanHAM · Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:32 pm

Best Suggestion to solve the BER Problem just read in another discussion

Chuck Norris takes over and the opeing will be in December.....

EPA001 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:41 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):

Best Suggestion to solve the BER Problem just read in another discussion

Chuck Norris takes over and the opeing will be in December.....

Great suggestion.

jetblue1965 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:41 pm

Massive display of incompetence ... especially for a nation that prides itself on being one of the most productive among EU nations.

LH must be laughing at their HQ since every delay of BER will hurt AB even more.

jcwr56 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:50 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
LH must be laughing at their HQ since every delay of BER will hurt AB even more.

If any German with a sense of National pride resides in that HQ, they wouldn't be laughing. It's an embarrassment to the people of Germany.

cschleic · Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:06 pm

Someone ought to start a pool...which happens first....BER opens or LHR gets a third runway?

jetblue1965 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:10 pm

Quoting cschleic (Reply 13):
Someone ought to start a pool...which happens first....BER opens or LHR gets a third runway?

I vote for Montreal decommissioning Trudeau in favor of Mirabel

Or maybe LGA Central Terminal no longer looking like a Greyhound Station

jox · Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:12 pm

Or NW get rid of their DC-9s - oh, wait...

PanAm1971 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:41 pm

Quoting BD338 (Reply 5):
The smoke ventilation system gets a lot of the blame but is it really just that?

I don't mean to generalize but Germans can fix just about anything and make it work. I'm sure this is not just about the ventilation system. I'm going to guess there are core fundamental design issues here... and they're not sure how to correct them. This is a true disaster.

Revelation · Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
the idea to vent the smoke through downward flowing vents was a hoax by someone who does not even have an engineering degree.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
Smoke goes up and that might be the ewasiest to redo the System the traditional way.

Memo to BER airport designers: Smoke rises...

Quoting jox (Reply 15):
Or NW get rid of their DC-9s - oh, wait...

Or the US would elect a black man as president - oh, wait...

jetblue1965 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:58 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
Memo to BER airport designers: Smoke rises...

Did it cloud their judgement ?

peterinlisbon · Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:06 pm

So that nobody can say that they didn't keep their word, now they've taken to announcing dates when the airport "will not open" rather than when it will. Come on, can't they just make some holes in the roof and put in some big fans. How difficult can it be?

trijetsonly · Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:08 pm

Frequent quote from German media:

Just disassamble the city of Berlin and reassamble it close to a working airport. That would be cheaper.

ODwyerPW · Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:45 pm

Strange for many of us aviation enthusiast to imagine this.

I've always regarded the german people and by extension it's government to be so pragmatic.

But in recent years, I've ended my love affair with Volkswagen products due to poor quality of electric systems (multiple german made passats).

I'm awed the people have tolerated the extravagant waste of the Bishop of Bling.

And now this airport. Of all nations around the world, I fully expected the German people to pull off a good airport in a reasonable amount of time.

seahawk · Mon Nov 24, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
Which takes time and the authorities, which is the County with a County seat some 90 km to the east, work closely with Berlin Airports. But what helps it when the building Permit expires in 2016? And what about TXL, can it be run indefinately?

The building permit is not a problem, well at least not outside Berlin / Brandenburg. They could always finalize everything except the ventilation system, as long as this is the only major problem. If they are talking about the building permit being in danger of expiring there must be more problems which do not allow for partial acceptance of the buildings.

And btw. I bet that in Mai 2015 there will be no plans for the new ventilation system. The EU wide tender for the engineering contract failed in August as there were no takers. So I wonder who is making the new plans, the BER team themselves? Again?

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 21):

I've always regarded the german people and by extension it's government to be so pragmatic.

Look at FRA or MUC, there it works. This is typical Berlin.

PanAm1971 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 21):
And now this airport. Of all nations around the world, I fully expected the German people to pull off a good airport in a reasonable amount of time.

I think you'll find that organizations and entities that perform at a very high level don't often make mistakes. However, when they do-it's often catastrophic.

We are all human. All of us. The important thing is to find out what happened during this process and learn from it. Living in the NYC metro area-I'm very interested to learn how this project went so wrong. Much to learn.

flyingturtle · Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting jcwr56 (Reply 12):
It's an embarrassment to the people of Germany.

Not really. Berlin may be the capital, it may have lots and lots of history. But it is by far not the economic capital of Germany. It's rather Munich, together with Frankfurt and the Ruhr area.

Here a list of the GNP per capita and Bundesland: http://de.statista.com/statistik/dat...-vergleich---bruttoinlandsprodukt/

Take this list with a grain of salt, as Hamburg is a tiny city-state, while Munich (state of Bayern) and Frankfurt (state of Hessen) also have a large hinterland. Berlin is behind the Saarland which is now a sort of developing country after the decline of the coal, iron and steel industry. This really means something. Saarland has a jobless quote of 7%, Berlin one of 10.7%.

I love both the Saarland and Berlin. But well, if Frankfurt would build a botched airport then I would be really troubled. Berlin is the capital of Germany only because of history and tradition.

David

mozart · Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:04 pm

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 21):
And now this airport. Of all nations around the world, I fully expected the German people to pull off a good airport in a reasonable amount of time.

And they do. Look at all the airport construction work in places like Munich (new airport, then new terminal, now another terminal) and Frankfurt (new terminal, new runway) - like clockwork.

The difference between those and Berlin? The show was run by professionals from the private sector and not from administrative imbeciles from a city that they have bankrupted and whose only right to claim to be Germany's capital is that it has been so in the past and whose economy is so dead that civil servants are the most productive part of the population.

txlbased · Mon Nov 24, 2014 5:31 pm

What I am even more concerned about is, that BER will have not enough capacity from the beginning on. The terminal is planned to handle 27 mio pax a year. TXL has an increase of pax traffic of about 6% every year and handled 20 mio in 2013. SXF handled 7 mio in 2013. The original designed capacity of BER is already reached today!

While dealing with the known problems, it would definately make sense to start building the already planned satelite terminal. Of course its more money to spend, but they will need the increase of terminal capacity anyway.

Quoting peterinlisbon (Reply 19):

So that nobody can say that they didn't keep their word, now they've taken to announcing dates when the airport "will not open" rather than when it will. Come on, can't they just make some holes in the roof and put in some big fans. How difficult can it be?

We are talking about typical german regulation, public authorities, laws and provisions here. Its not so simple in Germany to find a simple solution for those kind of things

Well, as long TXL is in use, I need 15 minutes to work vs 45 minutes to BER/ SXF

[Edited 2014-11-24 09:33:01]

N14AZ · Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:10 pm

Quoting BD338 (Reply 5):
I work in construction management

For those who might be interested: BER is sueing the consortium of architects and planning engineers for design mistake and unsuffiecient supervision services. They want about 225 million EUR as compensation.

PanHAM · Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:11 pm

The Problem started in 1970 when co-incidentally Willy Brandt said that he wanted "more Democracy". This turned out to be more bureaucracy

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 21):
I've always regarded the german people and by extension it's government to be so pragmatic.

The governments are purely populistic, wish the were pragmatic. As soon as any governments get their uneven Hands in Projects they will f... it up.

MUC is similarly set up as BER but the City of Munich and the state of Bavaria gives the managmenet totally free Hand to rund the place as a Business and not as an authority. The result is there.

FRA is a PLC listed to 49% on the ;DAX stock Exchange. It is also run purely as a Business, the City of FRA and the State of Hesse do ot have Controlling majorities (that is 75% plus one share), the board acts as entreüprenours. Which tey mustm it is the law.

However, here the state black/gree coalition tries to start screwing matter up as well, puelry populistic bowing to a screaming minority, they want to jeopardize Terminal 3, but that's another Story.

JU068 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:17 pm

Quoting txlbased (Reply 26):
While dealing with the known problems, it would definately make sense to start building the already planned satelite terminal.

lol... given their track record maybe it's safer to wait for the current terminal to start working properly.

par13del · Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:21 pm

Quoting cschleic (Reply 13):
Someone ought to start a pool...which happens first....BER opens or LHR gets a third runway?

I'm in for a $100.00 on LHR 4th.. ooops... I mean 3rd runway.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
Memo to BER airport designers: Smoke rises...

and that is where you are wrong, under the new rules for the environment - trading schemes and all - smoke has to flow downhill to avoid the additional taxes if it goes up and pollutes the atmosphere

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 9):
Chuck Norris takes over and the opeing will be in December.....

Best suggestion, I'm sure he has a movie in play where terrorist blow up an entire airport around him while he saves a damsel in distress, how much is Hollywood willing to pay to demolish the airport so that a new one can be built?
Let's remember Lethal Weapons XX, there was a real hotel in Florida that was demolished.

LOWS · Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:29 pm

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 21):

I've always regarded the german people and by extension it's government to be so pragmatic.

Okay...

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 21):

But in recent years, I've ended my love affair with Volkswagen products due to poor quality of electric systems (multiple german made passats).

I'm awed the people have tolerated the extravagant waste of the Bishop of Bling.

And now this airport. Of all nations around the world, I fully expected the German people to pull off a good airport in a reasonable amount of time.

Way to sterotype a whole country of 80m people...

lhrnue · Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:32 pm

The learning from BER is simple: airport supervisory board run by politicians = not a good idea

Skisandy · Mon Nov 24, 2014 6:59 pm

Germans are the "best engineers' in the world.... how is it then possible that ANY airport in
the entire rest of the world ever opened......?

Oh, maybe this is a solution: Divide Germany, remember, into East and West - and let Putin's
engineers fix the "Schonefeld problem" --- that may work better....

goosebayguy · Mon Nov 24, 2014 7:39 pm

Quoting Skisandy (Reply 33):
Germans are the "best engineers' in the world....

Except that the British pulled off Terminal 5 on time and under budget.

If Germany has the best engineers then ehy do they not have all the Formula 1 teams based there?

seahawk · Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:24 pm

Quoting Skisandy (Reply 33):
Germans are the "best engineers' in the world.... how is it then possible that ANY airport in
the entire rest of the world ever opened......?

Oh, maybe this is a solution: Divide Germany, remember, into East and West - and let Putin's
engineers fix the "Schonefeld problem" --- that may work better....

Well if you gave contracts to the lowest bidder being a member of the correct party instead of going for proven firms, you end up with that. It has nothing to do with East or West, it is a Berlin problem.

par13del · Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:27 pm

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 34):
Except that the British pulled off Terminal 5 on time and under budget.

Less we forget the baggage issue.....would that have delayed the entrance????
Kidding, I travelled thru T5 before the meltdown, so........

ua900 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 8:53 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
especially for a nation that prides itself on being one of the most productive among EU nations.

As a nation, yes. The region, not at all.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 11):
LH must be laughing at their HQ since every delay of BER will hurt AB even more.

Their laughter should be limited as it's also bad for LH Jump / 4U ops.

Quoting txlbased (Reply 26):
What I am even more concerned about is, that BER will have not enough capacity from the beginning on. The terminal is planned to handle 27 mio pax a year. TXL has an increase of pax traffic of about 6% every year and handled 20 mio in 2013. SXF handled 7 mio in 2013. The original designed capacity of BER is already reached today!

Easy solution, just build the second terminal that designers wanted for TXL from day 1.

Quoting txlbased (Reply 26):
We are talking about typical german regulation, public authorities, laws and provisions here. Its not so simple in Germany to find a simple solution for those kind of things

It's what happens when you move jurisdiction from Berlin to some local county administration in Brandenburg. If I'd build an airport, I'd check with them first, not last. Wowi could have easily leaned on the Berlin government, not so in another state.

Quoting B8887 (Reply 2):
Holy cow...

I think it was last Thursday or Friday that I read somewhere that will not open before before 2017...

If it continues like this...

...2025 sounds like a safe bet, no? But first humankind will be landing on Mars, as others have speculated. Just as well.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
I win a case of champagne when Berlin becomes the only capital City of it's size that can reached only by surface.

That you'd win regardless, once BER opens Berlin would become only reachable by surface since the city wouldn't have an airport within it's borders.

Time to have a serious conversation about keeping TXL open indefinitely since BER will be too small regardless of when it's opened. BER will be a good airport for the sun destinations, TXL can keep LH FRA and MUC traffic. No Berliner will ever endorse driving the extra distance to Brandenburg if they can avoid it, much like DCA vs IAD or JFK / LGA vs EWR or LAX vs ONT / LGB.

Nothing wrong with having more than one airport in a city that size, Moscow, London and Paris are able to support that, and so can Berlin.

FlyingSicilian · Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:05 pm

Thou shalt not diss the 787 delays again

LOL

We got the new airport terminal in Catania done, fairly ontime, even with the Mafia pizza, better than Berlin. Who'd a thunk it LOL

Couldn't they actually start from scratch and be done again by that time?

lhrnue · Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:14 pm

Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 34):
Except that the British pulled off Terminal 5 on time and under budget.

You've gotta be kidding.

cschleic · Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:16 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 36):
Quoting goosebayguy (Reply 34):
Except that the British pulled off Terminal 5 on time and under budget.

Less we forget the baggage issue.....would that have delayed the entrance????
Kidding, I travelled thru T5 before the meltdown, so........

I traveled through it after it supposedly was fixed, but that turned out to be incorrect. A ticketing hall packed with grumpy passengers, other areas full of BA staff cursing Heathrow's owners, tons of delayed baggage and flights, etc.

PanHAM · Mon Nov 24, 2014 9:49 pm

Quoting ua900 (Reply 37):
That you'd win regardless, once BER opens Berlin would become only reachable by surface since the city wouldn't have an airport within it's borders

No, the concession is that Schoenefeld/BER serves Berlin.

Besides that, I advocate since ever to Keep TXL open. The longer SXF/BER is delayed, the more this becomes necessary

cedarjet · Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:34 pm

T5 wasn't a happy experience and brought shame on LHR, BA and England. T2 otoh was a big success and is a delight to use.

Remember Berlin is a very badly run city. Fascinating and great, but can be frustrating. I am not surprised BER is going badly. This is a city for artists and political scientists, not technocrats.

jetblue1965 · Mon Nov 24, 2014 10:47 pm

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 42):
T2 otoh was a big success and is a delight to use.

If only the walk between T2A and T2B was shorter. I finished a whole novel chapter while getting to my gate.

WROORD · Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:11 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 7):
The smoke Ventilation is not the only Problem. Seems like the System must be redesigned from scratch and that the idea to vent the smoke through downward flowing vents was a hoax by someone who does not even have an engineering degree. Approved by someone in the supervisory board imposing as Mayor.Smoke goes up and that might be the ewasiest to redo the System the traditional way.

Hopefully the people responsible for the mess are held accountable and no longer in charge of the project.

Quoting Skisandy (Reply 33):
Germans are the "best engineers' in the world.... how is it then possible that ANY airport in
the entire rest of the world ever opened......?

That German engineering is apparently now outsourced to China (no offense) like everything else....

S75752 · Tue Nov 25, 2014 2:18 am

Soo, how many billions is it at in spending now, and how many might it get to at this rate in 2018?

tylersmithsjc · Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:39 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 17):
Or the US would elect a black man as president - oh, wait...

Or when American Airlines owns an Airbus - oh, wait

jetblue1965 · Tue Nov 25, 2014 3:50 am

Quoting tylersmithsjc (Reply 46):

They owned it way back in the A300 days

N14AZ · Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:28 am

Quoting WROORD (Reply 44):
That German engineering is apparently now outsourced to China (no offense) like everything else....

That's new to me. Can you give an example?

It is actually true that a lot of German companies have outsourced their engineering divisions by reducing the number of in-house-engineers and experts and by contracting external engineers and experts with work packages.

I know several consulting engineering companies with very good reputation. Unfortunately, you are not able to discuss technical details with their represantitives due to lack of know-how unless they bring along the corresponding freelance experts / engineers.

PanHAM · Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:03 am

A large number of small and Independent companies all over the Country in firms raning from one man shows to top 500 corporations make up the success of German industry.

For them the failure to build an Airport is an embarrassment. The real embarassement should be the ignorance of high ranking politicians towards Basic economic knowledge. The Tenor is, that making profits is bad and should be restricted. People with such ideologies sit in supervisory boards and screw up projcts, wasting billions in public Money, while Flamboyant entreprenours whoo ent out of luck get arrested and thrown into the smaller for three years because they used Company Money to fly in Business jets or helicopters where they could have used a car as well if they got up a bit earlier (original judges remark).

No one will in this Long chain of failures, wrong judgemenets, the inability to overthrow previous political decisions and adapting to current reality will ever be taken into responsibility, not charged for anything.

It is not Engineering, it is populistic poltitics screwing things up in most federal states except a few and Berlin is high up on the list of political mismanagement. While the private sector runs brilliantly, poltics are taking the Country down but at the end of the day it is the voter's fault. If a Party tells the People that 1+1 makes 2, they will not get elected. If you tell them that under social aspects 1+1 could be 3 or 4 as well, they win.

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