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TWA772LR
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HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:47 am

This thread goes along with my thread regarding HA and the A321neoLR.

When HA starts recieveing the A321, their 717s will be getting up there in years and cycles. As we all know, the babybus will be used largely on P2P mainland-Hawaii routes is SFO-KOA/Lihue or PDX-OGG, pretty much any mainland city within range to the major airports in Hawaii that isn't HNL. Would that kind of flying reduce the need for the 717, which are used solely on intra-Hawaii flights? Does HA have a plan to phase out and replace the 717, or will they rely more on Ohana for intra-Hawaii flights?
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N1120A
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:49 am

Interisland traffic is huge. The 717s aren't going anywhere.
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TWA772LR
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:50 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
Interisland traffic is huge. The 717s aren't going anywhere.

But planes do get old. Especially with the way HA uses theirs.
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 2):

But planes do get old. Especially with the way HA uses theirs.

HA flew their DC9s around for 30 years or so. Those 717s have plenty of life left.

I'd imagine the replacement will be C-Series or E2 sized, but probably a generation or two past those.
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:08 am

I wouldn't worry about them ... if HA no longer has a need for them, I'm sure they will receive plenty of life with a widget on the tail.
 
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:22 am

Each and every last HA 717 is going to be "run into the ground" hours/cycles wise. And that's a fact you can take to the bank
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:51 am

The issue is that inter-island flights can be as short as ten minutes. The A320 engines don't like being run up to takeoff power and then shut down to idle without stabilizing at cruise thrust. It causes a lot of wear and tear. The 717's BR715 engines seem to be able to handle that kind of short cycle.

I'm not sure what future types will be used. It seems more and more as if the traditional "RJ" manufacturers are trying to break into the "sub-mainline" market and are trying to market aircraft with longer and longer range. That may present an operational dilemma to airlines like HA that really need ultra-short stage lengths.
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TWA772LR
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:07 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
I'm not sure what future types will be used. It seems more and more as if the traditional "RJ" manufacturers are trying to break into the "sub-mainline" market and are trying to market aircraft with longer and longer range. That may present an operational dilemma to airlines like HA that really need ultra-short stage lengths.

That's my concern for HA. Perhaps the current generation Emb190/195 could fit the role.
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azjubilee
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:59 pm

Contrary to popular belief, the inter-island market is made up primarily of locals going about their daily lives. In addition to carrying its own connecting traffic, HAL carries most of the passengers from other carriers, including the international carriers who only serve HNL. Even with the introduction of the 321neo there will still be huge demand for neighbor island flying, therefore the need for the 717 and something similar after 2020 will be present. Ohana can't and won't replace 717 flying and large turbo props and large RJs at this point can't meet the capabilities of the 717. As said... 717s aren't going anywhere, in fact HAL is likely shopping for more.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):

When the neo's come on line and they're used inter island, they won't be used at the frequency that the 717s are. Further, it's not the engines that will limit Airbus products for a 717 replacement, it's the landing gear and it's ability to withstand the high cycle environment that comes with the 717 flying.

HAL has mentioned time and time again, that currently, there is nothing on the market that could come close to what the 717 can do. I personally think the Cseries is the one to watch however, for what could be a 717 replacement. HAL will need a small mainline type jet with the people and baggage capacity that meet the needs of the market.
 
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:06 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
The issue is that inter-island flights can be as short as ten minutes. The A320 engines don't like being run up to takeoff power and then shut down to idle without stabilizing at cruise thrust. It causes a lot of wear and tear. The 717's BR715 engines seem to be able to handle that kind of short cycle.

Is that from personal experience?

Thing is two fold:
1) Any 320 series would not be anywhere near (full) take-off power for such short inter-island hops, as fuel weight (and thus take-off weight) will be relatively low, even if fueled for several flights/hops. So besides the fact that the engines can/will be de-rated, they will most certainly be using flex take-off options, reducing engine wear-and-tear (very) significantly.

2) Any modern gas-turbine engine will suffer from this effect. But it is true that generally older designs will suffer less, as they have more built-in margin in their red-line limit. Modern engine should make up for that though in longer TBSV (Time Between Shop Visit), provided performance and operating characteristics are monitored properly. Admittedly, that monitoring is (much) more difficult on short hops than on longer flights.

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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:41 pm

Quoting litz (Reply 4):

I wouldn't worry about them ... if HA no longer has a need for them, I'm sure they will receive plenty of life with a widget on the tail.

I think if Delta would buy HA's 717s, they would buy them for parts. They are starting to pick up corrosion, especially in the the wings of two aircraft already mentioned in other threads.   
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:19 pm

Quoting PW100 (Reply 9):

Is that from personal experience?

HA and AQ learned by experience. AQ aquired 737-300s and 737-400s in the early 1990s and found that the modern engines simply could not handle the interisland combo of short flights (no cruise) and quick turnarounds. AQ quickly switched back the workhorse 737-200s and stuck with them through their shutdown in 2008.

The Hawaii interisland market is unique in that is very high volume, and involves stage lengths mainly of 100-200 miles (HNL-OGG and HNL-LIH are both exactly 100 miles). The fact that current 737s and A320s can't handle them is not a knock on the planes or their engines. They are simply not designed for this unique situation, and it makes no sense for A or B to build a special plane that probably only work HA.

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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:55 pm

I think the Pratt GTF might just be reliable enough for this. So enter the CS300 or E195-E2.

And if they want to balance usage, they can always rotate them onto mainland trips as frequency filler runs....especially if they get the CSeries. They could even offer year-round from LAX to KOA and LIH, in addition to OGG and HNL.
 
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 8:55 pm

I don't imagine delta ever wanting the HA 717s. Integrating a sub fleet of planes that has been doing 16 cycles per day for over 20 years would be a mess. When HA is done, I think they will be scrapped. HA might go shopping for used 717s with fewer cycles in 10 years or go to one of the various 100 seat jets being conceived of now.
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:30 pm

Aviation Week has had articles about this in the past. The 717's uniquely fit the inter-island routes for the reasons noted above, and there's nothing else in the market the meets the need. IIRC, the airline talks with Boeing about ways to extend the service life, and other manufacturers about what might come along that would fit the bill. Hawaiian is well aware that it could be a major problem for them down the road. Unfortunately, their aircraft numbers aren't large so it's difficult for them.
 
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:30 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 10):
especially in the the wings of two aircraft already mentioned in other threads.

Access panels. Not an airworthy concern, but your point still stands
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:34 pm

We all know where they're ending up, and that is Delta. Probably the same case with Qantas Link.
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:36 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13):
Integrating a sub fleet of planes that has been doing 16 cycles per day for over 20 years would be a mess.

It would be very interesting to see a schedule of a specific aircraft of this fleet with the rotations flown (departure, arrivals, time between two flights etc.) on a daily or weekly basis.

Is there any source?
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:56 pm



Attached is a typical 717 day from when I worked as a flight attendant. There is usually an AM crew that flies 6-8 landings and a PM crew that flies 6-8 landings. Some pairings start later (around 8am) and flew 8-10 landings finishing around 7 or 8pm.

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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:25 pm

Thank you very much!
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Nov 26, 2014 10:33 pm

That many legs becomes a lot more difficult under the new flight regs.
 
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:38 am

Quoting cschleic (Reply 14):
Hawaiian is well aware that it could be a major problem for them down the road.

It's not a "huge" problem. Worst case scenario is that they use lots of turboprops. Or abuse next-gen RJs. Costs might rise a little. But that's not a huge issue. Their competitors will be in the same boat.
 
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:17 am

Just a quick thought, is the solution to this perhaps HA investing in some kind of
high speed cat's or something and operating a water based shuttle?
 
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:30 am

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 22):
Just a quick thought, is the solution to this perhaps HA investing in some kind of
high speed cat's or something and operating a water based shuttle?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii_Superferry

In short, it ain't gonna happen. For a variety of reasons. I rode the Superferry from O'ahu to Maui. It was the most hellish, miserable, vomit stenched 4 hours of my life. The Molokai Channel and the Pailolo Channel are not smooth sailing!!


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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:35 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 21):
t's not a "huge" problem. Worst case scenario is that they use lots of turboprops. Or abuse next-gen RJs. Costs might rise a little. But that's not a huge issue. Their competitors will be in the same boat.

It will be a sizeable problem. HA's inter-island competitors, for the most part, fly turboprops. I think Mesa shut down go! The rest of their competitors fly to the mainland US or other continents.
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:47 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 20):
That many legs becomes a lot more difficult under the new flight regs.

Not really. Those look like todays typical 717 pairings. 4-8 landings are common.
 
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 21):
It's not a "huge" problem. Worst case scenario is that they use lots of turboprops. Or abuse next-gen RJs. Costs might rise a little. But that's not a huge issue. Their competitors will be in the same boat.

It's a sizeable problem. Only 2 of HA's inter-island competitors operate jet aircraft, UA on OGG-KOA, and go! Mokulele with the CRJ200. The rest operate turboprops. HAs best bet to replace the 717s (whenever they do it) is with the EMB-195 E1-or-2 or CRJ-1000 (if it's still in production).
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 3:09 am

Quoting ytz (Reply 21):
It's not a "huge" problem. Worst case scenario is that they use lots of turboprops. Or abuse next-gen RJs. Costs might rise a little. But that's not a huge issue. Their competitors will be in the same boat.

No, it's potentially a serious problem for HA, because no other airline has their aircraft doing >200nm flights all day, every day. (For comparison, HNL-ITO and LHR-CDG are about the same distance. DAL-HOU is slightly longer, and BOS-LGA is between HNL-ITO and HNL-KOA. HNL-OGG is comparable to LGA-PHL.) The BR715 is currently the only high-bypass turbofan engine out there (except maybe for the CF34) that can tolerate the extremely short cruise times on these flights, although the PW1000G has the potential to do the same. There is also no turboprop out there that can replace the 717 in terms of capacity; the Q400 can seat 78 in an all-Y configuration, while the 717s used by HA seat 8F/115Y.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 22):
Just a quick thought, is the solution to this perhaps HA investing in some kind of
high speed cat's or something and operating a water based shuttle?

No, it's not a practical replacement because a one-way trip from Oahu to Maui would still take three hours on a high-speed vessel (such as on the late Superferry), instead of the >30 minutes by air. Most of the interisland air traffic consists of people who need to fly to/from Oahu for business, and day trips by Superferry would not be practical, especially for Big Island. As aloha73g already mentioned, it's also a rough ride on the channels between islands, partly because it's open ocean, and mostly because the surrounding geography accelerates wind through the channels.

[Edited 2014-11-26 19:18:57]
 
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:02 am

The premise that the 717's days may be numbered is greatly exaggerated. Even if HA were to complete a fleet renewal by end-of-decade, it can rationally be argued that it was 10 years premature. It all comes down to the strategy executive leadership chooses, but operational 717s into the 2030s is a DEFINITE possibility.   

Here are the facts: The 717 is certified for 110k cycles. The oldest HA aircraft del 02/2001 is just past 50k. This means 2/3rds of the current fleet will cycle-out in the late 2020s (2028-29). HA will have plenty of opportunities to back-fill those aircraft before then. Furthermore, future aircraft acquisitions will be at considerably favorable terms... with only one real competing bidder in the long-term - DL.   

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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:31 am

Any future 717 purchases, for revenue service, by Delta Air Lines will be "Cherry Picked." The only exception, will be those that are bought solely for parts.   

[Edited 2014-11-26 20:40:19]
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 4:49 am

As it relates to HA's 717's life expectancy, lower-cycle used acquisitions would delay the need for a replacement by an additional 10 years. The reality is, 49 used 717s will inevitably become available within the next decade. Certified for 110k FC/FH, they will have plenty of operational life left in them. Only DL and HA will be the prospective buyers.

Conceivably, HA could back-fill it's entire 18-strong fleet will future acquisitions. Add another 3 as parts planes, and this still allows DL to grow their 717 fleet beyond 110 frames before needing to cannibalize aircraft of their own.   

Quoting PW100 (Reply 9):
Is that from personal experience?

Thing is two fold:
1) Any 320 series would not be anywhere near (full) take-off power for such short inter-island hops,

 redflag To be clear, you are arguing against science and proven operational history if justifying an Airbus (or any other current A/B/BBD/Emb offering) can match the demands of the 717 for HA. No need to be PC - that's just fact of the matter and directly stated. There is no proven replacement by ANY of the manufacturers for HA current operational demands, yet.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 10):
I think if Delta would buy HA's 717s, they would buy them for parts.

Not entirely true. If the HA 717s were acquired this decade, DL would put them into service. If the whole fleet were acquired 10 years from now, ships 488-493 (which have far lower cycles) would certainly remain active for the mid-term, while the other 12 could potentially be scrapped.

I will credit the notion that the HA fleet was be less valuable than other options for DL.   

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 10):
They are starting to pick up corrosion, especially in the the wings of two aircraft already mentioned in other threads.

That's the cost of doing business for Hawaiian short ops. You can't escape it. There was at least 1-2 D95s which incurred the same issue for HA. MX was done and HA continued to fly them - eventually for over 25 years.

I also recall an FL 717 showing some needs for corrosion and/or fatigue repair 2+ years ago. Like these HA frames, it was taken care of swiftly and not at all serious. That same aircraft will for DL for another 15 years...

Some food for thought.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13):

I don't imagine delta ever wanting the HA 717s. Integrating a sub fleet of planes that has been doing 16 cycles per day for over 20 years would be a mess.

Six of the 18 aircraft are certainly desirable for acquisition by DL for active service. The key here is not to forget that the 717 is certified for 110k FC/FHs.

The oldest 12 of HA's fleet is at the 45% mark on FC/FH. DL operates many 2-3 hour legs on it's 717s...  

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 26):
It's a sizeable problem
Quoting HNLPointShoot (Reply 27):
No, it's potentially a serious problem for HA,

The most pragmatic solution for HA may be to replace their older 717s with used 717s from QF, T5, Blue1, or Volotea. No other operator is putting their respective fleets through the same abuse. Actually, in cases the frames have 1/3rd the amount of HA cycles, for comparable vintage aircraft.


Edit: Grammatical errors

[Edited 2014-11-26 20:54:51]
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N1120A
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:29 am

I had a thought. What about a swap between HA and DL? Swap out some of HA's higher cycle planes that don't have corrosion issues for DL's lower cycle planes, with HA paying DL something.

Quoting litz (Reply 4):

I wouldn't worry about them ... if HA no longer has a need for them, I'm sure they will receive plenty of life with a widget on the tail.

It wouldn't surprise me to see 717s at HA after they leave DL.

Quoting PW100 (Reply 9):
Is that from personal experience?

Thing is two fold:
1) Any 320 series would not be anywhere near (full) take-off power for such short inter-island hops, as fuel weight (and thus take-off weight) will be relatively low, even if fueled for several flights/hops. So besides the fact that the engines can/will be de-rated, they will most certainly be using flex take-off options, reducing engine wear-and-tear (very) significantly.

That isn't the issue. It is the nature of the engines. AQ had huge problems with 733s and 734s, and even had problems turning 73Gs off flights from the mainland to handle higher load timings before heading back on a redeye. The A32S would have the same problem.

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 11):
HA and AQ learned by experience. AQ aquired 737-300s and 737-400s in the early 1990s and found that the modern engines simply could not handle the interisland combo of short flights (no cruise) and quick turnarounds. AQ quickly switched back the workhorse 737-200s and stuck with them through their shutdown in 2008.

Don't forget that AQ even had problems rotating 73Gs during downtime.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13):
HA might go shopping for used 717s with fewer cycles in 10 years or go to one of the various 100 seat jets being conceived of now.

I can totally see HA going to the used market.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 14):
IIRC, the airline talks with Boeing about ways to extend the service life, and other manufacturers about what might come along that would fit the bill

Didn't the DC9 get repeated life extensions? It is a very hardy frame.

Quoting tristan7977 (Reply 16):
We all know where they're ending up, and that is Delta. Probably the same case with Qantas Link.

Almost certainly not.

Quoting Lufthansa (Reply 22):
Just a quick thought, is the solution to this perhaps HA investing in some kind of
high speed cat's or something and operating a water based shuttle?

Already tried. The Superferry failed.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 26):
go! Mokulele with the CRJ200.

Out of business.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 26):
UA on OGG-KOA,

Do they even still run that?

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 26):
HAs best bet to replace the 717s (whenever they do it) is with the EMB-195 E1-or-2 or CRJ-1000 (if it's still in production).

Probably the E-Jets or C-Series, if they can handle it.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 29):
The premise that the 717's days may be numbered is greatly exaggerated. Even if HA were to complete a fleet renewal by end-of-decade, it can rationally be argued that it was 10 years premature. It all comes down to the strategy executive leadership chooses, but operational 717s into the 2030s is a DEFINITE possibility.

Exactly.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 29):
Here are the facts: The 717 is certified for 110k cycles. The oldest HA aircraft del 02/2001 is just past 50k. This means 2/3rds of the current fleet will cycle-out in the late 2020s (2028-29). HA will have plenty of opportunities to back-fill those aircraft before then. Furthermore, future aircraft acquisitions will be at considerably favorable terms... with only one real competing bidder in the long-term - DL.

Also, I'd imagine they could do a re-lifing.
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 5:32 am

Quoting PW100 (Reply 9):
Is that from personal experience?

No, from posters in this board with personal experience.

Quoting ytz (Reply 12):
I think the Pratt GTF might just be reliable enough for this. So enter the CS300 or E195-E2.

From an efficiency point of view, the GTF would be a great engine for this. The GTF is at its greatest advantage to other engine architectures at takeoff thrust. However, I don't know if the engine's thermal expansion properties will be as favorable as the BR715.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 31):
The most pragmatic solution for HA may be to replace their older 717s with used 717s from QF, T5, Blue1, or Volotea. No other operator is putting their respective fleets through the same abuse. Actually, in cases the frames have 1/3rd the amount of HA cycles, for comparable vintage aircraft.

Yes, but there is no readily-available replacement type, which will be an issue for HA.
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:27 am

Would Hawaiian consider large regional jets, like a CRJ-900 or the MRJ-90? I would think they are built for that kind of use.
 
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:23 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Yes, but there is no readily-available replacement type, which will be an issue for HA.

No, it's is not a problematic issue for HA going into 2015. And not for the foreseeable future. Realistically, HA has 15-20 years before they will be FORCED to address the 717 replacement issue. It would be an R&D failure if nothing came to market in that time. And by then, HA may or may not even exist as we know them today.


Quoting ordell (Reply 33):

Would Hawaiian consider large regional jets, like a CRJ-900 or the MRJ-90? I would think they are built for that kind of use

Replacement options would need to demonstrate a "Proof of Concept" to confirm proficiency in meeting the operational demands. Even then, neither type is likely to be as durable or long-lasting as the 717. Also, fuel efficiency gains will be relatively marginal when offset by acquisition costs, for the operated missions.
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:43 am

Could be launch customer for the 90 seat ATR.
 
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:23 pm

Quoting ordell (Reply 33):
Would Hawaiian consider large regional jets, like a CRJ-900 or the MRJ-90? I would think they are built for that kind of use.

Highly unlikely and its worth repeating, HAL does not see ANY VIABLE replacement on the market for the 717 at this time. HAL needs more seats and capacity to carry all the bags, plus large cargo such as surf boards. As it is there are about 175 flights a day. Any less capacity, those numbers will have to climb, which the airport facilities may not be able to keep up with. HNL is quickly becoming congested during the peak, with OGG following close behind.

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 34):
No, it's is not a problematic issue for HA going into 2015. And not for the foreseeable future. Realistically, HA has 15-20 years before they will be FORCED to address the 717 replacement issue. It would be an R&D failure if nothing came to market in that time. And by then, HA may or may not even exist as we know them today.

All great points you make in this thread. The company however, is targeting 2020 as the end date for the 717. Of course that is subject to change, especially if something viable comes to the market for its replacement. OR they can extend the cycle limits.
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Nov 27, 2014 6:43 pm

Both Hawaiian and Delta will fly their 717s until they are no longer serviceable. Of the two, only Delta has the capability of doing heavy checks and any other major Airworthy Directives in house. Delta will be the last operator of the 717 in any significant numbers.   
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DeltaMD95
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:06 am

IMO, HA's DC9 service history will provide clues into how HA will manage it's 717 operations into the later years. As noted in the thread above, the DC9-50 had a solid 25 year run at HA (1976-2001) before it was replaced by the 717 (MD95). I think a similar service life will apply to the 717.  
Quoting azjubilee (Reply 36):
The company however, is targeting 2020 as the end date for the 717.

So HA plan to phaseout the 717 by 2020? Are you sure? I recall that a decision on a potential replacement (or extending the 717 life) was postponed until end of decade (2020)...Not that a full retirement would be completed....

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 30):
The reality is, 49 used 717s will inevitably become available within the next decade. Certified for 110k FC/FH, they will have plenty of operational life left in them.

   Good point on the remaining available frames.

The MD95 mimics the DC9 through the certified life-extension. IIRC, the DC9 was raised by several thousand cycles after it's EIS.

I would imagine that HA's DC9 operational history will predict it's future for the 717.

Quoting ordell (Reply 33):
Would Hawaiian consider large regional jets, like a CRJ-900 or the MRJ-90?

But wouldn't they have ordered them by now? I think HA would be more wise to wait for the next generation (or two) of aircraft for the 717's replacement.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
747400sp
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:04 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
I'd imagine the replacement will be C-Series

     
 
azjubilee
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:56 pm

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 38):
So HA plan to phaseout the 717 by 2020? Are you sure? I recall that a decision on a potential replacement (or extending the 717 life) was postponed until end of decade (2020)...Not that a full retirement would be completed....

I guess I wasn't clear. 2020 isn't the final retirement date, but the date as you say, for a decision. The company knows they can operate the plane to 2020, but the time beyond that is questionable.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:16 pm

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 34):
No, it's is not a problematic issue for HA going into 2015. And not for the foreseeable future. Realistically, HA has 15-20 years before they will be FORCED to address the 717 replacement issue. It would be an R&D failure if nothing came to market in that time. And by then, HA may or may not even exist as we know them today.

It's not an R&D failure if nobody R&D's a type needed by only one airline in the world. There aren't many other airlines with such obligatory short hops.
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airportugal310
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:56 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 41):

Hawaiian is surely not the only one. To say "only one airline in the world" is short sighted
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TrijetsRMissed
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:33 am

On mission profiles with the greatest operational demands and frame durability limits, the DC-9 is superior to the field - A position held since 1965 and running; thanks to the MD-95 model. 17x daily intra-island Hawaii (with some 15-30 min legs to boot) - for 14 years going - tops the rest of the world.   


Quoting DocLightning (Reply 41):
It's not an R&D failure if nobody R&D's a type needed

I've got news for you, McDonnell Douglas didn't either... 

A history lesson: MDC didn't ''R&D a type'' that could do 17x daily and 110k cycles....   The DC-9-10/20/30 family was originally certified for 40k. It was designed for DL-style ops of 5-7 cycles per day. DL of course was the launch customer.

From how well it was built, operational history came to prove that DC-9 platform was/is the most durable in the market - above all competition. And you better believe THAT selling point was harnessed by Sales and Marketing.     

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 42):

Hawaiian is surely not the only one. To say "only one airline in the world" is short sighted

   Exactly.

HA is the extreme example of the short duration/high frequency/quick turnaround strategy. Of course this includes dozens of different operators around the world.
There's nothing quite like a trijet.
 
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ordell
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:55 am

Plus, isn't the humidity of Hawaii a major detriment to the airframes?
 
DeltaMD95
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:05 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 43):

On mission profiles with the greatest operational demands and frame durability limits, the DC-9 is superior to the field - A position held since 1965 and running; thanks to the MD-95 model. 17x daily intra-island Hawaii (with some 15-30 min legs to boot) - for 14 years going - tops the rest of the world.

   Completely! It is amazing that all the way from the original DC9-10 generation to MD95-30 series, the MD twin is unmatched in durability.  
Quoting ordell (Reply 44):

Plus, isn't the humidity of Hawaii a major detriment to the airframes?

Yep. That's pretty much a given when it comes to Hawaiian intra-island ops. By comparison, it's a much better challenge than the LGA-BOS shuttle service.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
MD80Nut
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Mon Dec 01, 2014 10:24 pm

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 45):
Completely! It is amazing that all the way from the original DC9-10 generation to MD95-30 series, the MD twin is unmatched in durability.

Yep. It will probably be a 717 flying the pilots home after the last A320neo and 737 MAX are retired to the desert.   

Cheers, Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
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MD80
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:40 am

Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 43):
17x daily intra-island Hawaii (with some 15-30 min legs to boot) - for 14 years going - tops the rest of the world.   

Please keep in mind that these aircraft are doing this in an elegant and sleek way!   

Thanks again for your insight-views!

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 45):
Completely! It is amazing that all the way from the original DC9-10 generation to MD95-30 series, the MD twin is unmatched in durability.

Couldn´t agree more   

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 46):
Yep. It will probably be a 717 flying the pilots home after the last A320neo and 737 MAX are retired to the desert.


   

This was often mentioned in connection with the Airbus A32X at Northwest Airlines and their DC-9s.

Let´s wait and see!   
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:31 am

When the time comes, I see HA looking at CFRP wings to avoid corrosion. IMHO the C-series to win unless there is a known flaw by then. Do to HA's intense operations, there is no way they are buying a C-series until the plane has quite a bit of service history (and proven very quick takeoff to takeoff times...).

What are the cycles on the fleet leading 717s in HAs fleet. Do keep in mind FL rode the 717s hard too. HA was 17 flights per day, FL could put 14 (but often a few less).

Quoting N1120A (Reply 1):
Interisland traffic is huge. The 717s aren't going anywhere.

   I wouldn't be surprised if HA picks up just a few more 2nd (3rd?) hand.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 3):
I'd imagine the replacement will be C-Series or E2 sized, but probably a generation or two past those.

I'd expect HA to buy the C-series or E2 later in their sales life if the Pratt engines prove suitable to the island duty.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 7):
That's my concern for HA. Perhaps the current generation Emb190/195 could fit the role.

It could, but they'll be well out of production by the time HA is looking. HA could buy used, but I would expect that only if the Pratt's didn't do as well as the CF-34-10s in turn time.

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 10):
I think if Delta would buy HA's 717s, they would buy them for parts. They are starting to pick up corrosion, especially in the the wings of two aircraft already mentioned in other threads.

Interesting. Do you have a link? I found this feed, but that was it.

http://www.kitv.com/news/-hawaiian-c...ncels-six-konahnl-flights/29734150

Considering the issues Airbus has had with corrosion in island flying, it still speaks well of the 717.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 13):
Integrating a sub fleet of planes that has been doing 16 cycles per day for over 20 years would be a mess.

Err... You're describing planes with too little life left to pay for a heavy maintenance visit.   That is a plane that paid for itself!

Quoting N1120A (Reply 31):
I can totally see HA going to the used market.

I could to. In particular if no airframe has as quick a takeoff to takeoff time.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 40):
I guess I wasn't clear. 2020 isn't the final retirement date, but the date as you say, for a decision. The company knows they can operate the plane to 2020, but the time beyond that is questionable.

Sadly as the 717s start turning 20 HA will have to decide what should replace them.  
It will be interesting to see what happens...

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iahmark
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RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:29 am

How about the spiritual successor, Comac’s ARJ21!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_ARJ21

Looks like a DC9 for the most part except with a new wing and FBW controls. Don’t know if the FAA would grant operation for US carriers for the type but it would be worth to try.

As far as Bombardier CS series the verdict is in the air, this plane has more than its share of delays plus is modern technology with a heavy dose of electronics meaning – probably- not a good bet for high cycle operations.
Another option –personal opinion- would be the E175 in high density (80+ passengers)configuration ; this looks like the strongest from the E-jets family and hopefully would take the abuse without major maintenance.

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