Airnerd
Posts: 302
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 11:57 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:48 am

I'd think given the extremely short flights, the larger turboprops on the market like the Q400 and ATR and their respective stretch versions ought to be considered. They might be quite a bit more efficient on the short hops. How are they working out for Island Air?
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3714
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:30 am

Quoting Airnerd (Reply 50):

I'd think given the extremely short flights, the larger turboprops on the market like the Q400 and ATR and their respective stretch versions ought to be considered

Read the thread... especially the part where it's mentioned that t-props are NOT a logical replacement. HAL needs the capacity that a mainline aircraft provides. If HAL went t-prop they'd likely need a massive fleet that flies an impossible amount of flights. Just as an example, HAL flights roughly 21,500 seats a DAY between the islands. Do the math, it would be a logistical nightmare.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:57 pm

Maybe someone knowledgeable could answer this question: Why didn't the MD80s didn't fare as well in interisland service as the DC9s or the 732s? At least that's what I remember has been stated in similar threads...

Was it the engine? If yes, what exactly caused problems? I know the JT8D-200 series is different to the original JT8D-x/1x series, but IIRC the hot section was carried over almost unchanged.

If it wasn't the engine, what was it?


Thanks in advance.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
User avatar
MD80
Posts: 757
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:09 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 52):
Maybe someone knowledgeable could answer this question: Why didn't the MD80s didn't fare as well in interisland service as the DC9s or the 732s? At least that's what I remember has been stated in similar threads...

As you know, Hawaiian Air operated MD-81s but they swiftly discovered that the MD-80 was way too big for use throughout the day.

In the mid-1980s, Hawaiian Air evaluated the BAe 146 as a replacement for their entire (?) DC-9/MD-80-fleet but decided to standardize to the DC-9-51 with 139 seats and to sell the shorter DC-9-10s, DC-9-30s and MD-81s as well as Dash 7s.

Another planned Hawaiian BAe 146-operator was believed to be Discovery Airways with the livery later used by Debonair Airways.

[Edited 2014-12-02 14:18:50]

[Edited 2014-12-02 14:19:22]
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
User avatar
hawaiian717
Posts: 3426
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:54 am

Quoting MD80 (Reply 53):
Another planned Hawaiian BAe 146-operator was believed to be Discovery Airways with the livery later used by Debonair Airways.

I remember Discovery. They were indeed going to fly the 146, but never got started due to foreign ownership issues. The same guy later started Debonair.
 
N415XJ
Posts: 886
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:04 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:30 am

Bring on the 717MAX!!!  
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3714
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:52 am

Quoting hawaiian717 (Reply 54):
I remember Discovery. They were indeed going to fly the 146, but never got started due to foreign ownership issues. The same guy later started Debonair.
Quoting MD80 (Reply 53):
Another planned Hawaiian BAe 146-operator was believed to be Discovery Airways with the livery later used by Debonair Airways.

Discovery actually DID fly, albeit for a short time until they were shutdown due to the foreign ownership issues.
 
User avatar
MD80
Posts: 757
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:02 am

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 56):
Discovery actually DID fly, albeit for a short time until they were shutdown due to the foreign ownership issues.

Thanks for your information.

So, back to the MD-95 ehh... Boeing 717:

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 55):
Bring on the 717MAX!!!  

Bring back the jetliners of McDonnell Douglas! 
Quoting TrijetsRMissed (Reply 43):
HA is the extreme example of the short duration/high frequency/quick turnaround strategy.

It would be very interesting to get more information about the daily 717-ops including the way how to deal with short turnarounds. How many minutes are considered for deplaning, boarding, cleaning, catering etc.?

Thanks!
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
User avatar
nikeson13
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:35 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:28 am

In my opinion, there will not be a perfect replacement for the HA 's 717s just because there is nothing today that is capable of rapid turnarounds, large cargo holds, and holds over 120 seats in a 2-class config for these short flights, nor will there (most likely) never be. HA will probably have to downgrade to something that will work for them, but not be a perfect fit such as the E2 or the C-Series. The 717 is such a rugged aircraft that no plane these days are made with the same rugged frame and design as the MD series. Thus, inevitably HA will make a replacement most likely in 10-15 years that won't be perfect, but will mostly fit the bill for a replacement.
Nikolas
 
User avatar
MD80
Posts: 757
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:27 am

Quoting nikeson13 (Reply 58):
HA will probably have to downgrade to something that will work for them, but not be a perfect fit such as the E2 or the C-Series

Interesting thoughts, thank you.

I have the impression that the C-Series has room to grow and the smaller version fits 125 seats while the larger one approx. 145? Capacity-wise, the C-Series is interesting but it also depends on the suitability for the missions flown on a daily basis by the robust Boeing 717s.
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
superjeff
Posts: 1310
Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2010 2:14 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:23 pm

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 11):

Quoting PW100 (Reply 9):

Is that from personal experience?

HA and AQ learned by experience. AQ aquired 737-300s and 737-400s in the early 1990s and found that the modern engines simply could not handle the interisland combo of short flights (no cruise) and quick turnarounds. AQ quickly switched back the workhorse 737-200s and stuck with them through their shutdown in 2008.

And Hawaiian tried DC-9-50's and MD80's and had to give up on them to. They operated DC-9-30's until the 717's came on line.

Quoting iahmark (Reply 49):
How about the spiritual successor, Comac’s ARJ21!!

I was wondering why nobody mentioned this so far down the thread. Isn't the ARJ21 based on the DC9 anyway (don't forget McDonnell Douglas built MD80's in China)?

Quoting Airnerd (Reply 50):
I'd think given the extremely short flights, the larger turboprops on the market like the Q400 and ATR and their respective stretch versions ought to be considered. They might be quite a bit more efficient on the short hops. How are they working out for Island Air?

not well, but that's largely because hte ATR72's are ex American Eagle frames, which were pretty much shot by the time Island Air got them. They're planning to convert to new Q-400's within the next year. But Hawaiian needs more capacity because they are much more dominant in the inter-island business and routinely fill their 717s (122 seats) vs. about 70-74 for the Q-400 (not sure of what will be island Air's configuration, but they are talking about having First Class so it will likely be in that range.
 
MD80Nut
Posts: 975
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:43 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:31 pm

Quoting superjeff (Reply 60):
And Hawaiian tried DC-9-50's and MD80's and had to give up on them to. They operated DC-9-30's until the 717's came on line.

Just a small correction, they operated DC-9-50s, not -30s.

Cheers, ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
User avatar
NWAROOSTER
Posts: 1270
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2005 2:29 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:42 pm

Quoting MD80Nut (Reply 61):

Quoting superjeff (Reply 60):
And Hawaiian tried DC-9-50's and MD80's and had to give up on them to. They operated DC-9-30's until the 717's came on line.

Just a small correction, they operated DC-9-50s, not -30s.

Hawaiian did operate both the DC-9-10 and DC-9-30, but before the DC-9-50.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
Sevensixtyseven
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:33 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:52 pm

Surprised this hasn't come up before, but would the Sukhoi Superjet be a good fit? The seating configuration is a bit less than the 717, Interjet flies them with 93 pax, the dispatch rate is at around 99.7%, and they fly the frames on average 9.7 hours a day. Not sure how the little SaM146 engines would hold up with quick turnarounds, but anything's possible. The range isn't a factor, but it does have FAA certification because Interjet flies them MTY-SAT.

Thoughts?
I call the dusty desert my home. :)
 
PI4EVER
Posts: 817
Joined: Wed May 06, 2009 10:29 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting aloha73g (Reply 23):

OMG your posting brought back memories of my Superferry experience. It was so rough I was concerned we'd be swamped with some of the huge swells breaking near the boat, and coming from different directions. The crew had warned us the "crossing may be unpleasant." I would not consider it again as it ranks with the Cozumel-Playa del Carmen high speed ferry. Fondly named the Vomit Express. Filled to capacity (and standing) visualize 2 decks of inside cabins with little or no functioning air conditioning, and the ripple effect the sounds of vomiting has on people. Children started, and it soon spread to adults and with very limited barf bag usage, I'll leave that scene to your imagination. It was pure hell for 50 minutes, where capsizing would have been a welcome to possibly wash the stuff away. A 25 minute ride on a 717 (even a bumpy one) is the choice to any interisland ferry service options.
watch what you want. you may get it.
 
User avatar
Spacepope
Posts: 4553
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:34 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 48):
What are the cycles on the fleet leading 717s in HAs fleet. Do keep in mind FL rode the 717s hard too. HA was 17 flights per day, FL could put 14 (but often a few less).

I hope someone in the know can chime in on this one. A quick glance at the FAA SDR page shows N480HA with over 46,000 cycles on it as of a year ago, so it's gotta be past 50k by now.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
User avatar
United_fan
Posts: 6691
Joined: Fri Nov 24, 2000 11:11 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:12 pm

Well DL is leasing their 717's from WN . What is the lease term ? Will DL keep them at lease end ?
"Suspicion is a matter of opinion"
 
User avatar
MD80
Posts: 757
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:12 pm

Regarding the high amount of cycles: Is there any difference to deal with very short flights and the fact that many of these flights are not "fully pressurized"? Many of the stage-lengths are that short that I can´t imagine that a Boeing 717 of Hawaiian is flying in cruise at FL330 with the needed cabin-pressure.

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 63):
Surprised this hasn't come up before, but would the Sukhoi Superjet be a good fit? The seating configuration is a bit less than the 717, Interjet flies them with 93 pax, the dispatch rate is at around 99.7%, and they fly the frames on average 9.7 hours a day. Not sure how the little SaM146 engines would hold up with quick turnarounds, but anything's possible. The range isn't a factor, but it does have FAA certification because Interjet flies them MTY-SAT.

Thoughts?

IMO the lack of additional sales could be a sign that many airlines are unaware of the long-term viability of this type? Even a theoretical re-introduction of the DC-9 or MD-80 at Hawaiian would be much less riskier compared to the dependence as as western airline to a Russian aeroplane. I also tend to say that the Superjet wouldn´t provide any major improvements to the Boeing 717 when it comes to operating-costs, capacity etc..

I don´t have exact numbers but I am quiet sure the Boeing 717 is a very efficient aircraft in its class. It´s not an aircraft from 1980. The historical decision by Hawaiian to order 13 Boeing 717s + seven options was IMO a very wise and logical one after all the good experience earned with the DC-9s and MD-80s.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 60):
And Hawaiian tried DC-9-50's and MD80's and had to give up on them to. They operated DC-9-30's until the 717's came on line.

"Tried" and "give up on them" sounds like evaluating these aircraft but Hawaiian introduced their first DC-9-51 in September 1975 and this type went on to become the standard-model after the shorter DC-9s and MD-80s were replaced with a standardized DC-9-50-fleet.  

Fifteen 139-seat DC-9-51s were replaced by thirteen 123-seat Boeing 717s within a very short time-frame.

IIRC, Hawaiian Air were happy in the mid-1990s to have only two types of aircraft (DC-9 and DC-10) from one manufacturer.
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
Sevensixtyseven
Posts: 259
Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 3:33 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:33 pm

Quoting MD80 (Reply 67):

Apparently 280 have been ordered, with 118 additional options. I'm not saying it would be wise to buy 25 of them and send them all over the Islands, while dumping the 717s in one go, but maybe it would serve as a good replacement when the 717s are too old to continue service. I'm personally interested in how well Interjet likes them as time goes on. They appear to be rugged little jets.



Another option may be the An-158? It would seat around the same amount.
I call the dusty desert my home. :)
 
User avatar
ua2162
Posts: 454
Joined: Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:53 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:47 pm

To add to the conversation, this was just released:

http://www.staradvertiser.com/news/b..._in_adding_seats.html?id=284634971

Looks like they're adding 10 seats to each plane in the 717 fleet. Looks like they'll be around for awhile.
 
User avatar
MD80
Posts: 757
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:53 pm

Thank you very much for your link and information! 128 seats would result in the highest seating-capacity used by any Boeing 717-operator! Would this mean a configuration of 8 First, 120 Coach?
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
User avatar
nikeson13
Posts: 221
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:35 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:43 am

Quoting ua2162 (Reply 69):
Looks like they're adding 10 seats to each plane in the 717 fleet. Looks like they'll be around for awhile.

Wow that adds even more requirements, totally taking out the possibility of a CRJ, ATR, or Qseries. 128 seats means that the biggest bet would be a CS300 or a used E190/195 / new E2 190/195 that could be easily fitted with the new 8F/120Y seating that they will put on the 717… looks like we may have found our winner(s) 
Quoting MD80 (Reply 59):
I have the impression that the C-Series has room to grow and the smaller version fits 125 seats while the larger one approx. 145? Capacity-wise, the C-Series is interesting but it also depends on the suitability for the missions flown on a daily basis by the robust Boeing 717s.

If the C-Series proves itself as very reliable, robust, and able to make turnarounds in very similar times to the 717, I think the CS300 will fit great for HA compared to the E-jet, which is far down the road. But thats my opinion, in reality both are equally good candidates.

[Edited 2014-12-03 16:56:13]

[Edited 2014-12-03 16:57:04]
Nikolas
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3714
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:16 am

Quoting MD80 (Reply 70):

Thank you very much for your link and information! 128 seats would result in the highest seating-capacity used by any Boeing 717-operator! Would this mean a configuration of 8 First, 120 Coach?

Yes, config will be 8/120.
 
User avatar
hawaiian717
Posts: 3426
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:26 am

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 56):
Discovery actually DID fly, albeit for a short time until they were shutdown due to the foreign ownership issues.

Thanks for the correction. I started thinking later after I posted that maybe they did fly for a short time, but hadn't had a chance to research.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26555
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:36 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 52):
Maybe someone knowledgeable could answer this question: Why didn't the MD80s didn't fare as well in interisland service as the DC9s or the 732s? At least that's what I remember has been stated in similar threads...

Too big. The MD80 would be good for a peak times, but couldn't just be turned constantly, because of ebbs and flows in demand.

Quoting United_fan (Reply 66):
Well DL is leasing their 717's from WN . What is the lease term ? Will DL keep them at lease end ?

Are they leasing from WN or from Boeing Capital? As I recall, most of FL's planes were leased from Boeing.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
User avatar
MD80
Posts: 757
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:41 pm

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 72):

Thanks! I saw it later in the official presentation of Hawaiian Airlines too.

Quoting nikeson13 (Reply 71):
128 seats means that the biggest bet would be a CS300 or a used E190/195 / new E2 190/195 that could be easily fitted with the new 8F/120Y seating that they will put on the 717… looks like we may have found our winner(s)

I like the way of our evaluation.  

Nevertheless, it´s very interesting that Hawaiian will be the one with the highest seating-capacity of any Boeing 717 in service. I often wondered in general, why no operator configured them with 129 or even more seats. IIRC, the maximum is 134 but other sources say 129.

Quoting Sevensixtyseven (Reply 68):
Apparently 280 have been ordered, with 118 additional options. I'm not saying it would be wise to buy 25 of them and send them all over the Islands, while dumping the 717s in one go, but maybe it would serve as a good replacement when the 717s are too old to continue service. I'm personally interested in how well Interjet likes them as time goes on. They appear to be rugged little jets.

IMO some factors are speaking against the Superjet at Hawaiian Airlines but this does not mean that the aircraft is bad. I´ve read articles that Interjet seems to be very pleased with their aircraft.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 74):
Too big. The MD80 would be good for a peak times, but couldn't just be turned constantly, because of ebbs and flows in demand.

Absolutely! IIRC, Hawaiian operated their MD-81s with the maximum allowed 172 seats. These aircraft were fine during peak times but really difficult to fill off peak. Thus, the MD-80 was simply too much aircraft for their needs and even the attractive operating-costs on a per seat basis were no longer reason enough. In the end, the DC-9-50 with 139 seats perfectly suited for the majority of routes. Some routes had payload-restrictions IIRC due to the retirement of the Dash 7s.
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
dkramer7
Posts: 116
Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:06 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:30 am

I think HA are the unfortunate victim of having a very unique set of network requirements. Its lucky for them that the B717 came around when it did as it seems to provide the best option for them in terms of equipment.

I suppose when the B717 does eventually have to leave the fleet and if there are no suitable replacements available they will simply have to "abuse" another type (I don't like this term, an aircraft is just a tool to be used).

In that case its no different from QF using B767's to run the 1 hour flights between Sydney and Melbourne (not quite the same thing I know, but hardly the B767's designed mission) or the Japanese airlines using the B747 for short domestic hops (I know they had a D version of the B747).

Maybe what is needed is a large powerful turboprop seating in the range of 100 pax, maybe a Bombardier Q500 or the like?

In either case, it seems that HA's inter island routes find themselves trapped between two worlds: Large enough but too short to warrant a narrowbody, and short enough but too large to warrant a turboprop.

Maybe personal jetpacks are the answer?
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 21677
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:52 am

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 72):
Yes, config will be 8/120.

For the life of me, I don't know why HA offers F-class on the 717. You're never going to be aboard for more than 40 minutes, anyway.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
HAWKXP
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:03 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:18 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):

Fly upfront all the time, first off gets me home or to work faster. Besides you get one or two of those wonderful 175 bottles of wine  
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3714
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:25 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):

It allows for connecting passengers to/from F/Business to have a premium experience their whole journey. Not to mention it allows for Hawaiian to reward their most frequent travelers with an extra perk. I know several people who pay the extra $$$ to fly F interisland.
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3558
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:59 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):

Not much to figure out really. As Azjubilee points outs, it's offered for two main reasons. Regular interisland customers love it because hey, after work and flying back home, who doesn't love a "free" beer or two?

My interisland record up there is 3 glasses of wine. Not that I wasn't egged on or anything  
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
ha763
Posts: 3201
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 5:36 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:34 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 77):

To add to the information already given, HA first introduced interisland first class on the DC-9-50 in 1999. I found it weird that it took HA that long to offer interisland first class when AQ started their interisland first class in 1983. Customers were also asking for interisland first class for quite awhile since AQ had it and HA had it on their transpac flights.
 
Planesmart
Posts: 2891
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2004 3:18 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:24 pm

Would there be scope for either A or B to offer the equivalent of the BAC111-475's uprated undercarriage for higher cycles?
 
HAWKXP
Posts: 81
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2014 6:03 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sat Dec 06, 2014 5:09 am

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 80):

yea got you matched 3- 175 bottles Koa-Hnl. Did have a hard time finding DL club for connecting flight. (been there at least 50 times).

The front seats are (like all F seats) offer a short refuge before going to work. Very important to some of us.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 18928
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:34 am

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 65):
I hope someone in the know can chime in on this one. A quick glance at the FAA SDR page shows N480HA with over 46,000 cycles on it as of a year ago, so it's gotta be past 50k by now.

Thank you. Still quite a bit of life on it.   I've read a little on how the HA 717s will 'sit out' part of the slow season in storage. Based on age, it looks like the 17 cycles/day is only happening about 3 or 4 months per year. Does anyone have a better summary?

This implies HA has a few more years than my initial estimates on when they must order a replacement. Not an infinitely longer time, but a bit longer.

FWIW, I doubt the frames past 60k cycles will have much resale value. Not that the 717 market is liquid anyway.   

Quoting ua2162 (Reply 69):
Looks like they're adding 10 seats to each plane in the 717 fleet.

Interesting... It will make those few F seats a little more desirable.

Quoting nikeson13 (Reply 71):
Wow that adds even more requirements, totally taking out the possibility of a CRJ, ATR, or Qseries. 128 seats means that the biggest bet would be a CS300 or a used E190/195 / new E2 190/195 that could be easily fitted with the new 8F/120Y seating that they will put on the 717… looks like we may have found our winner(s)

C-series or E-jets (or E2) will be the only real options. I expect turn times to drive the decision.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
qf2220
Posts: 1826
Joined: Fri Aug 16, 2013 9:16 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:40 am

Quoting litz (Reply 4):

Or a Roo...!
 
strfyr51
Posts: 4456
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:17 am

Quoting PW100 (Reply 9):
1) Any 320 series would not be anywhere near (full) take-off power for such short inter-island hops, as fuel weight (and thus take-off weight) will be relatively low, even if fueled for several flights/hops. So besides the fact that the engines can/will be de-rated, they will most certainly be using flex take-off options, reducing engine wear-and-tear (very) significantly.

********************************************************************************************************************************************
I don't know Where or How you would justify that Hyperbole
The Br715 is No more or Less suited to short hops than the V2500 or the CFM56.
All 3 engines would suffer from High start cycles just as the Landing gear would suffer from High Cycles.
The A320 Landing hear might be a little TOO complex for Hawaiian Interisland flying with the LGCIU and Sensor systems.
A small Boeing would be better suited with the Gear Simplicity and only the extend sensor operated by Cable.
If the CS-100 comes out to be as good as it looks on paper I would bet that's the one to replace the B717.
Since the B717 is Not a Life limited Airframe line the A320/A319 it's only a matter of support and available parts that might limit the life of the B717.
As it's a Douglas Designed airframe and damn near "Bulletproof"..
 
User avatar
MD80
Posts: 757
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:58 pm

Quoting QF2220 (Reply 85):
Or a Roo...!

Qantas really likes the Boeing 717 and praises the characteristics but do you think that the Boeing 717 will be part of their strategy (via Cobham and as part of "QantasLink" beyond 2020? The current agreement will end in 2018 IIRC.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 84):
Based on age, it looks like the 17 cycles/day is only happening about 3 or 4 months per year. Does anyone have a better summary?

Good question. There were threads about the utilization of each A380 of Emirates shown in a chart on a weekly basis and it would be very interesting to see such charts for each Boeing 717 at Hawaiian. Such valuable information would it make easier for all of us to understand the utilization of the Boeing 717 at Hawaiian.

Regarding the high amount of cycles: Is there any difference to deal with very short flights and the fact that many of these flights are not "fully pressurized"? Many of the stage-lengths are that short that I can´t imagine that a Boeing 717 of Hawaiian is flying in cruise at FL330 with the needed cabin-pressure.

It´s also impressive IMO that the Boeing 717 provides only one door for passengers and no aft stair. Despite this, the airline is able to conduct quick turnarounds with loads of more than 120 passengers.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 84):
...it looks like the 17 cycles/day is only happening about 3 or 4 months per year.

Is it correct that the DC-9-50s made an average of 12 to 14 daily cycles per day? This was impressive and up to 17 cycles is an extreme example of possible utilization.

Regarding the HA 717s: Is is correct that each aircraft has only one lavatory (RH-side in the aft) and a rather small galley (I would call it "R1")? What the purpose of the stowage space opposite to the single lavatory?

Thank you!
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3714
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:15 pm

Quoting strfyr51 (Reply 86):
The A320 Landing hear might be a little TOO complex for Hawaiian Interisland flying with the LGCIU and Sensor systems.

Indeed. As I mentioned before, the landing gear is what will make the 320 family a poor option to replace the 717.

Quoting MD80 (Reply 87):
Good question. There were threads about the utilization of each A380 of Emirates shown in a chart on a weekly basis and it would be very interesting to see such charts for each Boeing 717 at Hawaiian. Such valuable information would it make easier for all of us to understand the utilization of the Boeing 717 at Hawaiian.

I'm not sure of the exact cycles per plane but the company flies about 160 flights/day within the islands. Let's say 3 planes are in the hangar for their mx checks, that leaves 15 planes to fly the schedule. This means on average the fleet flies about 11 flights a day. As the fleet has grown, HAL has been able to spread the flying out between a larger fleet, therefore reducing the cycles per plane.

Quoting MD80 (Reply 87):
It´s also impressive IMO that the Boeing 717 provides only one door for passengers and no aft stair. Despite this, the airline is able to conduct quick turnarounds with loads of more than 120 passengers.

There is an aft air stair, but it's not currently used as a means for normal boarding. Even in KOA where there is no jet bridge, the aft stair is not used. Yes, pretty impressive turnaround times in the out stations, getting 120 people on and off in a short time.

Quoting MD80 (Reply 87):
Regarding the HA 717s: Is is correct that each aircraft has only one lavatory (RH-side in the aft) and a rather small galley (I would call it "R1")? What the purpose of the stowage space opposite to the single lavatory?

I believe the ships that have 118 seats are the ones with the larger galley and 2 lavs. The 123 seat ones have a smaller galley upfront and the single lav in the back.
 
User avatar
HA_DC9
Posts: 570
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 1999 3:16 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:08 pm

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 88):
There is an aft air stair, but it's not currently used as a means for normal boarding. Even in KOA where there is no jet bridge, the aft stair is not used

The 717 does not have an aft airstair like the previous DC-9's and MD-80's. It was removed from the 717 design. The tailcone exit is there, but it is solely an emergency exit with the slide. The forward door L1 airstair was an option on the 717, but I believe no operator ordered it (saves weight) including HA.
 
User avatar
MD80
Posts: 757
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:20 pm

Quoting HA_DC9 (Reply 89):
It was removed from the 717 design

Yes, it was only available as an option but all potential airlines asked told McDonnell Douglas to remove the aft stair as a standard-device to save a weight of 435 Kg.
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3714
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:23 pm

Quoting HA_DC9 (Reply 89):
The 717 does not have an aft airstair like the previous DC-9's and MD-80's. It was removed from the 717 design. The tailcone exit is there, but it is solely an emergency exit with the slide. The forward door L1 airstair was an option on the 717, but I believe no operator ordered it (saves weight) including HA.

No way! I had no idea. I thought the tail cone exit had an air stair for evac. It must just be a slide. Well... then I guess that's the real reason HAL doesn't use it in KOA. There isn't one!
 
User avatar
MD80
Posts: 757
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:52 pm

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 91):
I thought the tail cone exit had an air stair for evac. It must just be a slide.

Yes, the Boeing 717 has provisions for a ramp after opening the aft door. This ramp directs all people to the aft tail cone.

However it´s not like (for example) on an MD-80. The ceiling of the aft entrance acts as a ramp when lowered. This is automatically the case as soon as the aft stair is raised to the closed position.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 88):
I believe the ships that have 118 seats are the ones with the larger galley and 2 lavs. The 123 seat ones have a smaller galley upfront and the single lav in the back.

Thanks! So, the 123-seat version has only provisions for half-size trolleys/charts, right?
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3714
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sun Dec 07, 2014 7:55 pm

Quoting MD80 (Reply 92):
Thanks! So, the 123-seat version has only provisions for half-size trolleys/charts, right?

From what I've seen, yes. But I could be wrong.
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:21 pm

Quoting MD80 (Reply 53):
As you know, Hawaiian Air operated MD-81s but they swiftly discovered that the MD-80 was way too big for use throughout the day.
Quoting N1120A (Reply 74):
Too big. The MD80 would be good for a peak times, but couldn't just be turned constantly, because of ebbs and flows in demand.

Well, now they are cheap enough to imitate G4's model: Fly them only when there's enough demand, at other times leave them on the ground.
It may even be an option to "save" cycles on the 717 fleet...
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
User avatar
MD80
Posts: 757
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:25 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 94):
Well, now they are cheap enough to imitate G4's model: Fly them only when there's enough demand, at other times leave them on the ground.
It may even be an option to "save" cycles on the 717 fleet...

In 2003, Hawaiian Airlines (under Chapter 11) considered the MD-80 as a replacement for their (then) 13 Boeing 717s. As we all know, it was their way to renegotiate the leases of the Boeing 717s and Boeing 767s with Boeing Capital.

The MD-80 was mentioned as the most viable alternative but Hawaiian retained a reduced Boeing 717-fleet. I wondered about the information with MD-80s as an alternative because one main problem plagued the original utilization of the MD-81 at Hawaiian: The high capacity of the MD-80.

IMO Hawaiian Air can´t imitate Allegiant Air´s model of using MD-80s because Hawaiian Air is not Allegiant Air. 
Would it be financially viable to operate a "different" and out-of-production as well as rather loud aircraft alongside the Boeing 717? It would make sense for Hawaiian IMO to look for additional frames in the long-term with the aim to release the aircraft with highest cycles to... Delta!   

Your idea is a fine one but we are in 2014 and not the 1990s.
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:40 am

Quoting MD80 (Reply 95):
Your idea is a fine one but we are in 2014 and not the 1990s.

Oh, stranger things have happened...
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
User avatar
hawaiian717
Posts: 3426
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:53 am

There is one critical difference in the marketplace between 2003 and today: No Aloha Airlines. Thus, the market that was formerly split between HA and AQ is now effectively all carried by HA. The two tended to have fairly similar schedules, so in theory 1 D95/717 + 1 732 could be replaced by 1 M80. But that only works at times where both planes were flying reasonably full. In reality running increased frequencies with the 717 seems to be working pretty well.
 
User avatar
MD80
Posts: 757
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:29 pm

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:14 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 96):
Oh, stranger things have happened...

Yes, but your idea is a good one  
Quoting hawaiian717 (Reply 97):
In reality running increased frequencies with the 717 seems to be working pretty well.

I also tend to say that capacity-adjustments with a single type and frequencies remains to be the most practical way to answer increased demand or to react in case of declining demand.

Quoting azjubilee (Reply 93):
From what I've seen, yes. But I could be wrong.

I´ve never been on a Hawaiian Boeing 717-flight but I can imagine that the in flight-service is rather basic due to the short duration. Juice cups to peel-off, coffee, maybe biscuits? According the the short flight-times, there is probably only a short time left for the cabin crew to to a full round of distribution before all the garbage must be collected and the cabin secured for landing.

So, the small galley probably fits all the items needed.
Dedicated to the MD-80, MD-90, MD-95, and DC-9: www.MD-80.com
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3714
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: HA 717s, After The A321

Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:53 pm

Quoting MD80 (Reply 98):
I´ve never been on a Hawaiian Boeing 717-flight but I can imagine that the in flight-service is rather basic due to the short duration. Juice cups to peel-off, coffee, maybe biscuits? According the the short flight-times, there is probably only a short time left for the cabin crew to to a full round of distribution before all the garbage must be collected and the cabin secured for landing.

So, the small galley probably fits all the items needed.

Indeed. F service is complimentary drinks, including alcohol and either a biscoff cookie or Pau Hana snack mix, depending on time of day. Y service is a juice or water cup, with coffee on offer in the morning and beer (for purchase) on offer in the afternoon. Complimentary maps of the island the flight is going to is on offer for both cabins.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos