Pihero
Topic Author
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:58 am

AF has unveiled yesterday their new short/medium haul offer, aimed at regaining the lost business travellers with the *best product on the market*.
See AIR FRANCE SEEKS TO ATTRACT BUSINESS TRAVELERS TO ITS MEDIUM-HAUL NETWORK

The Press kit is here

AFKL shares have shot up more than 11% since the announcement.
Contrail designer
 
AIR MALTA
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:26 am

It seems thaty they are going to BA and LH for business with reduced pitch and blocked middle seat. The middle seats do not have a table like at BA. Not very impressed I have to say but this is the way the industry is going.
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
offloaded
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:35 am

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 1):

Sadly you are right. I was hoping to see a 2-2 configuration, but when I clicked the pics, I was underwhelmed.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
CRJ900
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:36 am

They only mention the A319 and A320. Do the A318 and A321 already have a new cabin?
Come, fly the prevailing winds with me
 
icarus75
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:34 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 2):

2-2 in business no sense because they want to be able to change the seating plan depending on the load factor in classes!
Flying is amazing!
 
r2rho
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 12:52 pm

I too was first expecting 2-2 seating. But then again, what does "medium haul" mean here? To me it would mean a handful of long niche routes flown by A32x, which would indeed justify a dedicated 2-2 business class. But by the number of a/c we're talkng about (24 A319 & 25 A320), this seems a much broader definition, including probably all 3hr EU flights. And in that case 2-2 doesn't make sense, better to retain the flexibility of reconfiguring the a/c. And the seats do look thicker and better cushioned than the current ultra-slim seats, so there is an improvement there.

But the more interesting part to me is actually hidden at the very end of the press kit, the new economy flex option. Let's see how it is priced, but this looks clearly aimed at the price-conscious business traveler looking for flexibility and efficiency and not caring about the bells & whistles of bizclass.
 
audidudi
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:20 pm

At least spell FRANCE correctly in the thread title. You are from France after all!
 
migair54
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:47 pm

Quoting CRJ900 (Reply 3):
They only mention the A319 and A320. Do the A318 and A321 already have a new cabin?

Maybe later, looks like they'll do all the Europe configuration and middle east and Africa?, not the Metropole ones.

I'm not impress at all, but as you've said it's the way the industry is going, however in this I really has business class seats in the A319 for maim haul routes.
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Iberia/Iberia_Airbus_A319_V2.php

What are the longest routes for this planes??

Quoting Pihero (Thread starter):
AFKL shares have shot up more than 11% since the announcement.

11% for this??? What will happen the day they announce profits again???
 
roseflyer
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:48 pm

Quoting icarus75 (Reply 4):

If Aeroflot and Turkish can put a 2-2 business class seat that is actually comfortable in then any airline in Europe can. I hear a lot about cabin flexibility, but by using economy seats with slightly more pitch and a blocked middle seat, it still does not feel like a comfortable seat that I would pay more for. US airlines might have terrible catering and require you to pay for a lounge, but at least they give you a comfortable seat if you spend more on first class. No slimline economy seat will match that comfort.

They should just try putting real business class seats in and then using revenue management and pricing to adjust demand to fit the cabin size if they want to Claim to have the Best and win back business class customers.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
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mercure1
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:28 pm

Quoting Pihero (Thread starter):
*best product on the market*.

Must be a translation error.   

Planned seat pitch will be 30-inch in Business, and 29 in Economy.

Even Ryanair has 30-inch pitch in economy class.

Another downward disaster action by AF.
mercure f-wtcc
 
philvardon
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:52 pm

Those seats still look awfully slim-line and not very comfortable. I do understand that they like to have flexibility in their cabin configuration but I think the current trend of not giving at least couple of extra inches of legroom in European C-class is just awful.
 
AeroWesty
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 2:56 pm

Interesting to see AF introduce a discounted fare class which allows for catching an earlier flight for no extra charge if a seat is available, instead of making you wait for your scheduled flight if you happen to arrive at the airport early. That inflexibility seems to be the #1 gripe I read about on interweb boards when comparing US vs. EU-style airline pricing/policies.
International Homo of Mystery
 
luzezito
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 3:50 pm

So, all that for only that little?
Sky priority exists ages already
The lounges are all but peaceful at any major AF airport. Poorly serviced and maintained.
The seats look and probably will feel average
We get a picture of the guy who is doing the food offer
And as a big novelty you get on board connectivity (welcome to the 21st century AF) and I can print the luggage tags at home????
I mean, for the last 10 years this once customer driven carrier is becoming a premium low cost offer with but with a premium price! They know it, they feel it and they do nothing about it. I will spare you my last flight close to the back gally where for most of the flight the "PNC's" discussed about their working conditions in fornt of us all.......
And I don't want to talk here about their regional HOP spinoff...
I loved AF in the past. Today there is no defending them anymore, thus, I don't pay for them anymore. Sorry
Quoniam Vita Brevis Est, Propera!
 
TYCOON
Posts: 477
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:06 pm

Although I share people's less-than-impressed reaction to this, it doesn't seem any worse than what BA, IB, LH, and LX already have on their short- medium-haul A32X business class.
And contrary to luzezito, I much prefer the service I get on AF than any of BA, IB, LH, and LX.
 
zoulastar
Posts: 58
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:08 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 8):
Maybe later, looks like they'll do all the Europe configuration and middle east and Africa?, not the Metropole ones.

Correct. This only concerns aircraft based in Roissy CDG airport, serving international flights. A319 will be retrofitted from jan 2015, and A320 a year later.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 8):
What are the longest routes for this planes??

The three longest routes on the Air France medium haul network are : Tel Aviv, Amman and Yerevan.
 
Azure
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:10 pm

Quoting Pihero (Thread starter):
AFKL shares have shot up more than 11% since the announcement.

Err, I most often agree with you but I am not sure this is related to the introduction of the new product. Rather the drop of oil price...


Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 8):
They should just try putting real business class seats in and then using revenue management and pricing to adjust demand to fit the cabin size if they want to Claim to have the Best and win back business class customers.

Agreed. If it works in the US, it can work in Europe, at least on some key routes... Would require a small sub fleet especially equipped though.


Quoting luzezito (Reply 13):
And as a big novelty you get on board connectivity (welcome to the 21st century AF)

Are you suggesting AF is late compared to its competitors ?
LH has just started to install WiFi connectivity on medium-haul, so has VY, and BA will start in 2016...
No WiFi on the horizon for U2 and FR anyway...
 
ORDJOE
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 4:59 pm

I never quite understood why people would pay that much for the psuedo business class european airlines use for short haul. To me this is just premium economy with a meal that sort of sucks. I guess the fact that they do include somewhat nice lounges with this is a plus. But still domestic first class in the US seems much better that EU J class anytime
 
Pihero
Topic Author
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting Azure (Reply 16):
Err, I most often agree with you but I am not sure this is related to the introduction of the new product. Rather the drop of oil price...

No. I watch this share like a hawk : the effect of falling oil prices has been -still is- dampened by AFKL's hedging coverage. It won't be felt for another six months.What has boosted the share price this week have been the Transavia plan and this new medium haul offer.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 10):

Even Ryanair has 30-inch pitch in economy class.

Have I ever forbidden you to fly MOL's ?

Quoting migair54 (Reply 7):

11% for this??? What will happen the day they announce profits again???

Your understanding of the stock market is overwhelming.
Contrail designer
 
lpdal
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 6:51 pm

In Euro Business, do the C rows have more legroom than the normal Y seats? The only Euro Business legs I've been on were either a Lufthansa 320/321 on FRA-CPH (can't remember which) and a SK MD-80 on CPH-FRA (this was before SAS ditched regional C and the entire MD fleet). Despite the short length of the flight, we received full meal service, but I was a bit perplexed as I had never seen blocked off seats sold as C class.

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
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lesfalls
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:36 pm

This new buisness class is a joke for the medium market in Europe. This is probably the end for AF and will probably end the same way as LX(The old one).At least KLM is having no problems  
Lufthansa: Einfach ein bisschen mehr.
 
okapi
Posts: 162
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Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Fri Nov 28, 2014 10:12 pm

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 16):

In most cases, people travel C or J even on shorter sectors with a company-paid ticket. They earn miles faster than the average traveller, get access to the lounge, priority boarding and faster bag delivery, amongst other perks. I'm still amazed by the sheer numbers on many flights.
On the other hand, don't forget that part of these business travellers are often reaching airlines hubs (CDG, FRA, LHR, etc.) as part of a much longer journey and in this case, it makes sense.
 
laca773
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RE: Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:53 am

Quoting migair54 (Reply 7):
'm not impress at all, but as you've said it's the way the industry is going, however in this I really has business class seats in the A319 for maim haul routes.
http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Iberia/Iberia_Airbus_A319_V2.php

I was wondering why none of the EU carriers offer a narrowbody with a fixed business cabin on their longer medium haul flights that are 3+ hours in duration. IB offers it, on a small subfleet of A319s, and BA offers it on their 767s.

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 8):
If Aeroflot and Turkish can put a 2-2 business class seat that is actually comfortable in then any airline in Europe can. I hear a lot about cabin flexibility, but by using economy seats with slightly more pitch and a blocked middle seat, it still does not feel like a comfortable seat that I would pay more for. US airlines might have terrible catering and require you to pay for a lounge, but at least they give you a comfortable seat if you spend more on first class. No slimline economy seat will match that comfort.

True, but then again many of their flights are over 2.5 hours. They don't offer a lot of 1-1.5 hour flights like the EU carriers do, with that being the majority of their EU network. It makes sense for TK and SV to offer a fixed, C cabin.
 
bgm
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RE: Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Sat Nov 29, 2014 5:09 am

Quoting AIR MALTA (Reply 1):
It seems thaty they are going to BA and LH for business with reduced pitch and blocked middle seat.

BA does not do this for their mid-haul flights. They have a dedicated fleet of ex-bmi A321s which have 23 lie-flat seats:

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Bri.../British_Airways_Airbus_A321_C.php

These aircraft fly LHR-GYD/BEY/TLV/AMM/DME/CAI
OK boomer.
 
kl838
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RE: Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Sat Nov 29, 2014 7:33 am

Quoting lesfalls (Reply 19):
is new buisness class is a joke for the medium market in Europe. This is probably the end for AF and will probably end the same way as LX(The old one).At least KLM is having no problems  

That is quite an uninformed statement, even though AF has its problem at the moment, the cabin reflects a lot of what most European airlines are doing. These flights are hardly more than 3 hours and the seats are perfectly fine (they look comfy). I have flown US (now AA) domestic first class and found the seat a complete joke on the A319, the legroom was a joke, the uniforms were sloppy, crew looked like they didn't care. I was miserable for 3 whole hours on the way to SXM. The overall standard AF sets is a lot higher than any of those airlines in the US. As for KL "having no problems", AF-KL are so intertwined at the moment, no one knows exactly who is making the profit as they don't give the breakdown, but KL themselves are having trouble in at the moment with profits decreasing dramatically.

The seat is decent, but I do wish there was slightly more legroom, enhanced meals is a plus, and the cabin looks very stylish and inline with the long haul fleet. Premium Economy shouldn't have been removed, but maybe they were only receiving non-revs and not actual full fare passengers. The more customisability for customers I think its better, because those who want bargain basement fares should get what they pay for.

As for anyone comparing it to Ryanair, you can fly with them, AF is still and will be much more pleasant to fly in.
 
icarus75
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:18 am

RE: Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:27 am

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 8):
They should just try putting real business class seats in and then using revenue management and pricing to adjust demand to fit the cabin size if they want to Claim to have the Best and win back business class customers.

Come on! Most of the flights last for less than 2 hours!
I fly AF at least twice a week and I can tell you that for about 2 months now, premium cabins (Eco+ & Business) are alomost full if not full!

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 13):
And contrary to luzezito, I much prefer the service I get on AF than any of BA, IB, LH, and LX

Agree with you! During the (stupid) strike, I've had to fly to ZRH with LX and to FRA & MUC with LH : I cannot say that the service was bad but not as good as AF!
Flying is amazing!
 
Eagleboy
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RE: Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:29 am

Quoting icarus75 (Reply 4):
2-2 in business no sense because they want to be able to change the seating plan depending on the load factor in classes!

what happened to the old variable seating that some carriers had? I remember hvaing to change out cabin config from 3-3 to 3-2 on turnarounds, however that was up to 10 years ago.
 
AIR MALTA
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RE: Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:05 am

Quoting Bgm (Reply 22):
BA does not do this for their mid-haul flights. They have a dedicated fleet of ex-bmi A321s which have 23 lie-flat seats:

http://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Bri.../British_Airways_Airbus_A321_C.php

These aircraft fly LHR-GYD/BEY/TLV/AMM/DME/CAI

I am aware of these flights actually... I think BA should use these farmes for flights to LCA, LED, IST and anything longer than 4 hours. Each one of these frames seems to be underutilized spending more than 8 hours on the ground at the oustations.
Next flights : BRU-ZRH-CAI (LX)/ BRU-FCO-TLV (AZ)
 
TYCOON
Posts: 477
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RE: Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Sat Nov 29, 2014 9:51 am

For info AF is flying widebody international business class aircraft to BEY and CAI. LH is to TLV and maybe CAI
 
zoulastar
Posts: 58
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RE: Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:00 am

Quoting TYCOON (Reply 27):

For info AF is flying widebody international business class aircraft to BEY and CAI. LH is to TLV and maybe CAI

Air France uses for its 5 to 7 hours flights :

Wide bodies to CAI, BEY, JED and RUH.
A320s to EVN, AMM and TLV. (And to DAM before the situation got out of control there)

Val
 
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Aesma
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RE: Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:42 am

The seats are new. The seating is nothing new.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LY777
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RE: Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Sun Nov 30, 2014 12:15 pm

Quoting zoulastar (Reply 28):

It would be a huge improvement if AF could send widebodies to TLV
Flown:717,727,732,733,734,735,738,73H,742/744/748,752,753,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, 789, DC8,DC10,E190,E195,MD83,MD88, L1011, A3B2,A319,A320-100/200,A321,A332/A333,A343,A388
 
goldorak
Posts: 1455
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RE: Air France New Cabin, Business On Medium Haul

Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:50 pm

Quoting zoulastar,reply=28Wide bodies to CAI, BEY, JED and RUH.][/quote]
Since SV joined Skyteam, AF does not fly anymore to JED   . They code-share with SV.


[quote=Aesma
(Reply 29):
The seats are new. The seating is nothing new.

THANK YOU ! As you said, the seating is nothing new and corresponds to what all EU airlines are doing. The new seat is better than the previous one, so all good.

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