PanHAM
Posts: 9731
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RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:21 am

Etihad Germany is Air Berlin. I am sure that the conflict will be solved quicker than March or April 15. The supervisory board meets tomorrow IIRC and they likely make some announcements concerning the wings concept. As to the early Pension scheme, they are one step from an Agreement.

The present strike is obviously to Show some muscle before the board meeting, in other words, Union Folklore.

.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
Prost
Posts: 2454
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2012 6:23 pm

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:27 am

How many flights were cancelled 01 Dec if I may ask?
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2453
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:31 am

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 49):
Question: I will fly with LH at the end of March 2015 and April 2015. What are the chances that this conflict will be solved until then?

I doubt it...which is why I booked AB instead of LH for my DUS-MUC trip in April over Easter.
 
Unflug
Posts: 727
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2012 5:25 pm

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:54 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 51):
How many flights were cancelled 01 Dec if I may ask?

I don't know the breakdown per day but German media reported 1.400 flights cancelled from Monday to Wednesday, which is around 50% of all flights.
 
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shamrock604
Posts: 2177
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2007 11:27 pm

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:55 am

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 24):
The pilot is the most important position in an airline, and has the lives of hundreds in their hands each flight.

It's exactly that mentality, and the arrogance it has bred, that sees pilots now treated as Pariahs in many companies.
 
JAGflyer
Posts: 3563
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2004 5:31 am

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:57 pm

There is an LH B747-400 sitting idle at the Infield Cargo terminal at YYZ. Anyone else have a resident LH aircraft idle temporarily?
If you flew today, thank a Flight Dispatcher!
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 44):
I was arguing only for the importance of the pilots. Their quick decision making is responsible for hundreds of lives. Of course there are many other workers who are also part of the puzzle, that is why workers in general deserve higher pay, not a race to the bottom, and 'be happy you have a job' mentality that has infected the world since Thatcher and Reagan ideologies invaded the planet. I can see there is no reasoning with certain people, only executives deserve above 6 figure salaries while everyone below deserves minimum wage.

Nonsense. Nobody said that only executives deserve six figures salaries and everyone else deserves minimum wage. Please point out where anybody said that. Go on. Quote that post.

I was merely pointing out how derogatory the self-entitled attitudes of pilots is to the other workers who have an equally important role to play in running a safe airline. The pilot's quick decision making is responsible for hundreds of lives. Sure. It's just as important as every technician's attention to detail that ensures that every flight that departs doesn't becoming a smoking crater. I challenge how anyone can suggest that one is more important than the other. The only point of debate is whether one should be paid more based on the skill involved and market conditions for that job.

And it's just as important to have competent executive leadership. You wouldn't have an airline to begin with if executives run it into bankruptcy. If you think you can do the job better and cheaper, please start petitioning the shareholders to hire you for a pittance and see if they're interested. You can provide them with the exact type of cheap labour that you are accusing LH management of pursuing.
 
galleypower
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:54 pm

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 4:56 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 23):
There is a nice German word "Besitzstandswahrung" which translates into "protection of vested rights".

That worked in the days when LH was wholly or later, partially owned by the state. Once LH was fully floated at the stock Exchange, once the EU single market was created and once the ME3 and TK went on their state protected flights, that Kind of protection is no longer viable.

LH cannot earn such costs on the market. It is up to the pilots to adapt to reality or fly their Airline into cloud-cuckoo-land and ultimately follow the dodo into extinction.

Well, the pilots are about 5% of total cost. Including dead cost like simulators, training and such, which you will have whatever the salary is. If you lower these cost by one percent and this would make or break your airline, your businessmodel is screwed up.

Why dont we just close europe and move everything to ME or better to Bangladesh. Whatever your business is, the downwardspiral will eventually reach you. Easy to say, better to start with them.

Actually, they are fighting for their jobs. Plan is to move everything to Eurowings or cheaper. Which would mean losing of jobs. LH wants to break the contract once and for all. The company is full of examples were departments/unions agreed to lower wages and higher productivity. But they were closed shortly afterwards anyway and moved to Poland, Southafrica and India. That fate is what they try to avoid. Even though my workschedule gets screwed up very other month, they have my full support.

[Edited 2014-12-02 08:59:06]
 
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N14AZ
Posts: 3800
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 10:19 pm

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:43 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 50):
Etihad Germany is Air Berlin.

I know, of course. But in the unlikely case that LH gets into financial trouble wouldn't Etihad have an interest to invest in LH, merge it with AB and use it as kind of Darwin airlines for Germany. I was just trying to make a very extreme example. Of course I hope there are still some reasonable persons left at LH and their unions.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 50):
I am sure that the conflict will be solved quicker than March or April 15. The supervisory board meets tomorrow IIRC and they likely make some announcements concerning the wings concept. As to the early Pension scheme, they are one step from an Agreement.

Just one step? I didn't know this. The media is just reporting about the consequences of the strike, not so much on information concerning the progress of the discussions.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 50):
... in other words, Union Folklore.

ROFL! Good one!

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 52):

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 49):
Question: I will fly with LH at the end of March 2015 and April 2015. What are the chances that this conflict will be solved until then?

I doubt it...which is why I booked AB instead of LH for my DUS-MUC trip in April over Easter.

I really hope you will be wrong. But we shall see.
 
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par13del
Posts: 9055
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 56):
I challenge how anyone can suggest that one is more important than the other.

What metric do you want to use, pay???pilots have traditionally been the highest paid, it is only in recent times with the increase in stocks, trading etc. that executives have taken over, even engineers have not caught up.
Importance, engineers go on strike management finds a way to work around them, pilots go on strike company looses money, gives in or goes under.

As for the civil side, folks have always regarded those in uniform with bars on their shoulders as the most important, why do you think hotel bell men now wear uniforms with eplets 
 
ytz
Posts: 3529
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2009 12:31 am

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:31 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 59):
What metric do you want to use, pay???pilots have traditionally been the highest paid, it is only in recent times with the increase in stocks, trading etc. that executives have taken over, even engineers have not caught up.
Importance, engineers go on strike management finds a way to work around them, pilots go on strike company looses money, gives in or goes under.

Pay is largely a function of market price for your labour. PIlots get paid more, because it's harder to find a skilled pilot. Were there to be a shortage of techs and engineers tomorrow, you could quickly find the situation changed in their favour.

But pay does not say a single thing as to the importance of one profession or another in aviation. If you take the "Swiss Cheese" model for flight safety, every member of the staff is important for the safe operation of a carrier.

And if you think you could replace your servicing crews that easily, well, just pay the techs less and have the strike and watch what happens.....
 
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par13del
Posts: 9055
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:14 pm

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 7:59 pm

Quoting ytz (Reply 60):
Pay is largely a function of market price for your labour.

It used to be.......in a lot of cases it now starts out with your level of qualifications (degree, experience etc.)

Quoting ytz (Reply 60):
PIlots get paid more, because it's harder to find a skilled pilot.

I'll disagree with this one, pilots like doctors spend a lot of money becoming trained and qualified,usually they recoup that investment over time only becoming highly paid after years of service.
Freedom of movement when it comes to labour would have been pushed by airlines on both sides of the pond if that twas the reason why rates were so high.

Quoting ytz (Reply 60):
But pay does not say a single thing as to the importance of one profession or another in aviation.

Agree here, but unfortunately, we live in a society where a monetary value is put on such things, so.........
 
txlbased
Posts: 203
Joined: Sun Oct 27, 2013 8:25 pm

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:04 pm

Quoting N14AZ (Reply 58):
I know, of course. But in the unlikely case that LH gets into financial trouble wouldn't Etihad have an interest to invest in LH, merge it with AB and use it as kind of Darwin airlines for Germany.

An interesting vision, but that´s never gonna happen.

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 24):
The pilot is the most important position in an airline, and has the lives of hundreds in their hands each flight.

That´s BS. A pilot is an individual and is replaceable every single day. There are hundreds of pilots out there that would step in for 20% less salary.

Quoting galleypower (Reply 57):
Plan is to move everything to Eurowings or cheaper.

which is necessary, sorry. continuing like today will be LH´s death within 10 years. they will not have to shift every little thing to a cheaper operating substitute by a large part of todays operation.
You have your office cubicle. I have mine - it roars!
 
theginge
Posts: 529
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:53 am

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:05 pm

Quoting B747400ERF (Reply 24):
The pilot is the most important position in an airline, and has the lives of hundreds in their hands each flight.
Quoting B777LRF (Reply 28):
As a former airline pilot, I'm here to tell you that is absolutely BS. The most important people in any company are those setting the strategy; those selling the products; those managing the operation and those who are in the operation. The pilots are but a small part of the latter group.

You are missing the people who pay the wages of airline employees , ie customers. They have plenty of choice these days.
 
baldwin471
Posts: 350
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 5:22 am

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:51 am

Another strike scheduled for the 5th for long haul flights.
 
warden145
Posts: 539
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:36 am

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:32 am

Quoting baldwin471 (Reply 64):
Another strike scheduled for the 5th for long haul flights.

I need to ask a practical question here...if you're scheduled on a long-haul flight that gets cancelled due to a strike, what happens? Does the airline refund your money, or do they try to put you on another carrier, or try to put you on a later flight?

I might have some plans at the end of this month that, if they happen, are subject to tight scheduling, and the uncertain labor situation may have just ruled out LH...but, this time of year, there's also potential concern for weather and making connections...
ETOPS = Engine Turns Off, Passengers Swim
 
holzmann
Posts: 599
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2011 3:43 pm

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:17 am

All this is just in time for the German Christmas market tourism.

I have got a few Dutch friends who have their pilots license and have learned (B level) German just to get a chance to interview with Lufthansa. There would be long lines for those positions the second they become available.
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FlyDeltaJets
Posts: 1652
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 4:24 pm

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:49 am

Quoting warden145 (Reply 65):
Does the airline refund your money, or do they try to put you on another carrier, or try to put you on a later flight?

You will likely be rebooked onto another carrier if possible. If not possible they will likey put you up in a hotel until they can get you out and if you want a refund usually ticket rules are wiaved to allow for refunds for even non-refundable tickets.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
TYCOON
Topic Author
Posts: 476
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 8:20 pm

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:55 am

Lufthansa pilots have announced another day of strikes tomorrow, Thursday, 4 December... Likely to affect a good number of LH flights.
 
AWACSooner
Posts: 2453
Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:35 am

RE: Lufthansa Strike

Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:01 am

Man...where's Frank Lorenzo when you need him? He'd do WONDERS for this airline!  

I take it they're striking tomorrow so they can top AF on the number of strikes they've had this year?

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