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PSU.DTW.SCE
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DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 12:48 am

Originally posted on another forum, the minutes from the MSP-MAC meeting indicate that Delta has agreed to "initiate nonstop seasonal direct service to Honolulu in 2015.

The MAC has been putting incentives out there and made a public media campaign about getting HNL restored since DL dropped the route a few years ago.

http://metroairports.granicus.com/Me...view_id=1&event_id=27&meta_id=1896
 
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SLCUT2777
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:18 am

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Thread starter):
HNL restored since DL dropped the route a few years ago.

Why DL dropped this route that they inherited from NW has been a tough one to figure out for years.
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Miami
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:21 am

Good news for MSP and HNL.

Tropical Beach to Winter Cold snow and vice versa.  
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af773atmsp
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:22 am

Glad to see we'll at least be getting seasonal non-stop service to Hawaii. What aircraft will DL use, and what will be the frequency?
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:34 am

Honestly if they are willing to offer money for a seasonal route, why not do it........makes sense to me to resume service.
 
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enilria
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:48 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Why DL dropped this route that they inherited from NW has been a tough one to figure out for years.

Well, it's all leisure with pretty much no high end business component. Plus, it's loaded with free SkyMiles redemption tickets that produce no revenue depending upon how you look at it. So, in that environment you want to fly from the shortest possible connect point like the West Coast. They are only resuming it because of the $18 million bag system deal it appears.
 
deltal1011man
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:54 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):

no its really not.

SLC, SFO, LAX, SEA Hawaii can all be flown with a 757-200/300 or a 767-300A

MSP/DTW/JFK/ATL all require a 767-300ER/400ER 777-200ER/LR 747-400 A330-200/300

Quoting af773atmsp (Reply 3):

Hopefully its more than the token service JFK has.

But I wouldn't expect much. Delta is going to be pretty short of international wide bodys for the next two years.
 
KDTWflyer
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:18 am

MSP-HNL sounds pretty awesome around January lol. I remember when Northwest would fly the Boeing 747-200s on this route  Any idea when they are going to implement this? I'm assuming it will be with the A333 like the current ATL-HNL run.

Now if only they would return the seasonal DTW-HNL run from forever ago!
 
mplsjefe
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:25 am

Quoting deltal1011man (Reply 7):
But I wouldn't expect much. Delta is going to be pretty short of international wide bodys for the next two years.

Will they really be short of wide bodies? The 10 HGW a330s will start arriving in 2015 and I have always been under the impression that DL usually has some international wide body slack during the winter months. With the KLM metal going on AMS-BOM, that likely will free up a bird or two as well.

I know its very unlikely, but with gas prices the way they are maybe they will put 744s on the route and try to sell a ton of cheaper leisure fares and just 'put butts in the seats' like the good ol' days. We can all dream, right?!?

Either way, its about time and great news for us Anetters here in MSP.
 
Prost
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:51 am

My guess is 767-300ER with the 26 seat B/E and 200 seat y cabin.
 
MAH4546
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:01 am

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Why DL dropped this route that they inherited from NW has been a tough one to figure out for years.

Because like almost all discontinued routes, it probably lost money. Not tough to figure out.
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Prost
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:09 am

If Sun Country had the correct equipment, I'd think this route would be a shoe in for them, and probably for a longer period than Delta will be operating it.
 
mhkansan
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:29 am

Quoting Prost (Reply 12):
If Sun Country had the correct equipment, I'd think this route would be a shoe in for them, and probably for a longer period than Delta will be operating it.

They could fly a 738 MSP-SEA-HNL and make SEA a three way bloodbath  
 
Prost
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:47 am

Four way, you left out Hawaiian.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:07 pm

DL dropped this route initially because it was highly seasonal in nature and because it required the use of an internationally configured, premium aircraft.

The question is are they going to go ahead and quickly get it launched in time for peak season, which would be March-April 2015, or will this not resume until November 2015?

Seems rather quick and short notice to get this route launched in time for peak late Winter/Spring 2015, but its possible if they get it out there announced and for sale in the next week or two before the Christmas holiday.
 
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United_fan
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 1:26 pm

Quoting mhkansan (Reply 13):
They could fly a 738 MSP-SEA-HNL and make SEA a three way bloodbath

Are DL 's 738's ETOPS ?
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jetlanta
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:00 pm

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Why DL dropped this route that they inherited from NW has been a tough one to figure out for years.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Because like almost all discontinued routes, it probably lost money. Not tough to figure out.

Ha. That is absolutely correct. Also, at the time, the aircraft was more valuable flying international services. The dynamic is different now that fuel prices are falling, fares are rising, and there is over-capacity in most international markets (especially in the Winter IATA season, which is when this will fly).

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 15):

DL dropped this route initially because it was highly seasonal in nature and because it required the use of an internationally configured, premium aircraft.

The question is are they going to go ahead and quickly get it launched in time for peak season, which would be March-April 2015, or will this not resume until November 2015?

Seems rather quick and short notice to get this route launched in time for peak late Winter/Spring 2015, but its possible if they get it out there announced and for sale in the next week or two before the Christmas holiday.

It isn't going to start until the Winter 2015/Spring 2016 IATA season. It will only operate seasonally.
 
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enilria
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:42 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 17):
Ha. That is absolutely correct. Also, at the time, the aircraft was more valuable flying international services. The dynamic is different now that fuel prices are falling, fares are rising, and there is over-capacity in most international markets (especially in the Winter IATA season, which is when this will fly).

I hear that hotels are packed in Hawaii these days and room rates are going up a lot as a result, so it seems like that will provide additional challenges for more leisure capacity. If I were a hotelier in Hawaii I'd be more focused on Asia or Europe passengers supporting higher room rates. Your thoughts?
 
brilondon
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 2:53 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Why DL dropped this route that they inherited from NW has been a tough one to figure out for years.

Because like almost all discontinued routes, it probably lost money. Not tough to figure out.

I completely agree, DL inherited the rights for this route and they tried to run it as well as DTW-HNL non-stop but could not make any money at it or not enough of a profit for the two aircraft to be taken and used on what is primarily a leisure route with very little in the way of paying premium traffic. I did fly both routes and I personally won't be lining up to fly it now. That is an awful long time on an aircraft and it just won't suit my body to subject its self to that time stuck in a tube.
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:07 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 18):
If I were a hotelier in Hawaii I'd be more focused on Asia or Europe passengers supporting higher room rates. Your thoughts?

Given the increasing strength of the U.S. Dollar right now, the appeal of Hawaii to some Asian travelers might fade a bit. Europeans aren't all that significant of a tourist group to Hawaii and they've got their own economic issues to deal with.

It seems to me that this is a good use of idle international aircraft during the Winter months when DL has lots of extra capacity to play with.
 
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:08 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 6):
Well, it's all leisure with pretty much no high end business component. Plus, it's loaded with free SkyMiles redemption tickets that produce no revenue depending upon how you look at it.

Sadly, this is very true. I'm among the guilty ones. Used my SkyMiles to upgrade to business class for my honeymoon back in 2010. Doubt anyone siting in the front of those A330's had actually paid full fare for their seats

That said, glad to see this route returning, if only for the winter
 
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:11 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 19):
That is an awful long time on an aircraft and it just won't suit my body to subject its self to that time stuck in a tube.

Huh? I only flew MSP-HNL once but IIRC it was around 8 hours - so you're never going to fly transatlantic? Whatever floats your boat!
 
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:12 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 17):
Ha. That is absolutely correct. Also, at the time, the aircraft was more valuable flying international services. The dynamic is different now that fuel prices are falling, fares are rising, and there is over-capacity in most international markets (especially in the Winter IATA season, which is when this will fly).

It is interesting to see how these things go. If I remember, in 2002/2003 we saw a bunch of new US-Hawaii service start are resume. This was in the post-9/11 environment when travel demand was starting to recover, but international lagged behind and airlines had excess widebodies to deploy. NW started seasonal DTW-HNL, AA added ORD-OGG, DL added CVG-HNL and SLC-OGG, etc.

It is always a balance and trade-off to find the best use of resources. International and non West Coast-Hawaii routes have similar route profiles but can have different revenue potential.

Quoting enilria (Reply 18):
I hear that hotels are packed in Hawaii these days and room rates are going up a lot as a result, so it seems like that will provide additional challenges for more leisure capacity. If I were a hotelier in Hawaii I'd be more focused on Asia or Europe passengers supporting higher room rates. Your thoughts?

Attempting to get more Europeans to Hawaii is a lost cause. It is better to after untapped demand and market within the United States. In my opinion, it seems that at least in the eastern half of the US, Hawaii is competing with many of the all-inclusive type resorts in the Carribean or Mexico that are shorter/cheaper to get to and stay.

Not sure, but when are the peak Asia demand periods? Do they overlap peak US vacation periods?
It is interesting to see the demographic changes in Japan and how the travel profiles changes as the core travel population continues to get older. What about China demand to Hawaii?

Quoting brilondon (Reply 19):
I completely agree, DL inherited the rights for this route and they tried to run it as well as DTW-HNL non-stop but could not make any money at it or not enough of a profit for the two aircraft to be taken and used on what is primarily a leisure route with very little in the way of paying premium traffic. I did fly both routes and I personally won't be lining up to fly it now. That is an awful long time on an aircraft and it just won't suit my body to subject its self to that time stuck in a tube.

Frankly, I would much rather take DTW-MSP-HNL than DTW-SEA/LAX-HNL. I'd rather have short flight then get on a longer 767/A330 instead of 2 4 hour flights on 739/757 service.
 
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:14 pm

Quoting msp747 (Reply 21):
Doubt anyone siting in the front of those A330's had actually paid full fare for their seats

Believe it or not, there are people who pay for F to fly to Hawaii. Some of the people who pay $1000+/night on private bungalows think nothing of paying for F. Enough to fill an entire cabin, no, but there is some amount of paid F on these flights.
 
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enilria
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 23):
Attempting to get more Europeans to Hawaii is a lost cause.
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
Europeans aren't all that significant of a tourist group to Hawaii and they've got their own economic issues to deal with.

That would be the definition of a potential growth market. You also have to keep in mind that if you spend a ton on airfare to fly half-way around the world to get a new dot on your map, spending $300 per night for a hotel much less painful than in Cancun where the air was $400-500.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 20):
It seems to me that this is a good use of idle international aircraft during the Winter months when DL has lots of extra capacity to play with.

Perhaps, but I think they are only doing it as part of the bag system deal. It will not last IMHO, unless there is a contract where they have ot fly it.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 21):
Sadly, this is very true. I'm among the guilty ones. Used my SkyMiles to upgrade to business class for my honeymoon back in 2010. Doubt anyone siting in the front of those A330's had actually paid full fare for their seats

Exactly...

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 23):
If I remember, in 2002/2003 we saw a bunch of new US-Hawaii service start are resume.

Hawaii has already come back. The timing is off. You saw G4 fail out there not because the market is poor, but because the market is too strong for G4 level consumers. The hotels were too expensive for G4 to get good room rates for their tour sales machine.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 23):
It is better to after untapped demand and market within the United States.

While Europe is actually untapped, the USA market is hardly untapped. There is a ton of capacity. There are plenty of connect options over the West Coast. Prices are just high and that's the way the airlines want it. For most consumers on the East Coast if Hawaii is the same price as Europe, they will choose Europe. That's essentially the situation. For Europeans its more exotic and the dollar is still cheap compared to going to Polynesia.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 23):
Hawaii is competing with many of the all-inclusive type resorts in the Carribean or Mexico that are shorter/cheaper to get to and stay.

And *that* is why they left the first time. I don't see that has changed...in fact it has gotten worse. The room price gap has widened and the airfare gap as well.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 23):
Not sure, but when are the peak Asia demand periods?

Pretty much all the time these days because....

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 23):
What about China demand to Hawaii?

...China is growing like a weed to Hawaii. The new visa relaxation is also going to send it through the roof. Keep in mind it isn't like CUN where they just bulldoze down another forest and make more mega-resorts. The Hawaii market is tightly controlled in terms of development. There are very few if any all-inclusives (because they don't have to) and fairly few mega-resorts. Yes, they could build on the Big Island, but that beach product wouldn't sell well.
 
RKSofACinUSA
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:52 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Why DL dropped this route that they inherited from NW has been a tough one to figure out for years.

Because like almost all discontinued routes, it probably lost money. Not tough to figure out.

Routes are discontinued all the time that don't lose money. With a finite number of planes, sometimes the airline just finds another route that makes more money with the same plane.
 
Flighty
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:55 pm

In the winter, DL should have plenty of widebody capacity. I think the widebody usage is a non-issue or perhaps even a net positive for the route as a seasonal.

Flying the route January-April should be a no brainer, given that Hawaii yields are pretty good.
 
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 3:59 pm

Regarding equipment, isn't DL planning to convert a few of the 763ERs to domestic configuration at some point soon as the standard 763s are being retired? I'm sure that I have seen that somewhere. Those would seem like the obvious birds to use once they are available. But it also makes sense to use idle international birds during the winter low season.
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 4:11 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 18):
I hear that hotels are packed in Hawaii these days and room rates are going up a lot as a result, so it seems like that will provide additional challenges for more leisure capacity. If I were a hotelier in Hawaii I'd be more focused on Asia or Europe passengers supporting higher room rates. Your thoughts?

This is indeed an issue, particularly in Oahu where room rates are at record levels. The neighbor islands are in much better shape in terms of occupancy levels. A significant share of people traveling via MSP will be connecting on HA to other islands, so that mitigates the HNL issues a bit. But Americans actually travel in enough volume at all levels of the food chain that they don't really get priced out of anything in Hawaii yet. Europeans and Australians like high end properties. But Asians actually tend to prefer a step down the rung (Sheraton/Hilton/Marriott). And the Chinese aren't even concerned about oceanfront at this point. They prefer to save money on lodging and spend it shopping.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 23):
It is interesting to see how these things go. If I remember, in 2002/2003 we saw a bunch of new US-Hawaii service start are resume. This was in the post-9/11 environment when travel demand was starting to recover, but international lagged behind and airlines had excess widebodies to deploy. NW started seasonal DTW-HNL, AA added ORD-OGG, DL added CVG-HNL and SLC-OGG, etc.

It is always a balance and trade-off to find the best use of resources. International and non West Coast-Hawaii routes have similar route profiles but can have different revenue potential.

The U.S. West Coast, Japan are sort of Hawaii's bread and butter. Everything else fluctuates more based on market conditions. Those two do as well, but they are so core that an equilibrium is usually found pretty quick. I.E..supply and demand usually find there way into balance within a season or two. When overall conditions are poor, you tend to see the longer-haul flights (like MSP) get cut. When conditions are good, those routes are more attractive again.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 23):
Attempting to get more Europeans to Hawaii is a lost cause. It is better to after untapped demand and market within the United States. In my opinion, it seems that at least in the eastern half of the US, Hawaii is competing with many of the all-inclusive type resorts in the Carribean or Mexico that are shorter/cheaper to get to and stay.

Hawaii already gets nearly 600 PDEW from Europe with zero nonstop service. If Europeans holiday in Southeast Asia and Australia, they will go to Hawaii, but it is really a matter of opening up nonstop routes. Its an operational/economic challenge that will eventually be overcome. You can imagine that if 600 PDEW are coming now via awful west coast gateways, nonstop service will stimulate a ton of demand.

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 23):
Not sure, but when are the peak Asia demand periods? Do they overlap peak US vacation periods?
It is interesting to see the demographic changes in Japan and how the travel profiles changes as the core travel population continues to get older. What about China demand to Hawaii?

Actually Asia, U.S. and Australia demand periods are relatively complementary. Australia is almost an exact opposite of U.S. demand, so it works out very well.

Demographics in Japan are indeed a huge long-term issue. The Hawaii tourism industrial complex is very much in touch with that reality. That is why you've seen a big ongoing push to diversify to other markets. Fortunately, the growing ranks of middle-class people that flank the Pacific provide an extremely well-stocked pool of potential visitors. There is little tourism infrastructure growth to support in the state at this point, so the hurdle is not insurmountable.

In fact, in spite of the impact of Japan's Yen devaluation, Hawaii tourism overall has hit record numbers the past few years on the most diverse visitor base ever.

[Edited 2014-12-01 08:22:40]
 
MSPNWA
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:15 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Thread starter):
Originally posted on another forum, the minutes from the MSP-MAC meeting indicate that Delta has agreed to "initiate nonstop seasonal direct service to Honolulu in 2015.

I've read that memo, but I'd wait to see it go from something on a piece of paper to a public operational plan before I'd talk much about it.

Quoting SLCUT2777 (Reply 1):
Why DL dropped this route that they inherited from NW has been a tough one to figure out for years.

I think the true reason was one that DL wouldn't state - a fairly well performing route was cut in attempt to make more elsewhere. That's why it burned people up here so much.

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 11):
Because like almost all discontinued routes, it probably lost money. Not tough to figure out.

This might have been an exception. And besides, there's tons of routes that do lose money and don't get cut.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 15):
DL dropped this route initially because it was highly seasonal in nature and because it required the use of an internationally configured, premium aircraft.

I don't think either of this are particularly true and the reason it was dropped. MSP-HNL has a couple dips during the year but overall the demand is fairly consistent. It's certainly not as seasonal as secondary Europe destinations or contiguous 48 beach markets. And the A333 is a Y-heavy aircraft. It could have been just too big. But either way both theories wouldn't explain why MSP-HNL was totally dropped and not turned into a seasonal destination. If it's seasonal, fly it seasonally. Didn't happen.

Quoting msp747 (Reply 21):
Doubt anyone siting in the front of those A330's had actually paid full fare for their seats

More up there are paid than you might think. F for Hawaii isn't nearly as expensive as J, and people will pay for it. And even if they're FFs burning some perks, routes like this are necessary to give them something to spend on. It is a huge gain to your program. It's only fun to work the miles game if there's a prize worth winning.

Quoting enilria (Reply 25):
There is a ton of capacity. There are plenty of connect options over the West Coast.

I'd argue that there aren't plenty of good options or tons of capacity on DL. UA, yes. DL, no.

Quoting enilria (Reply 25):
And *that* is why they left the first time. I don't see that has changed...in fact it has gotten worse. The room price gap has widened and the airfare gap as well.

There's always been a price gap. And when they left, the price gap was small. Now it has grown, but that's because demand has returned. The timing doesn't jive for that theory. Fact is that Hawaii has its own unique demand that cheaper/quicker destinations can't satisfy. It's worth more to some (me included), and I'll pay more for it.
 
superjeff
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:56 pm

Traditionally, Hawaii tourism has been pretty much U.S. West Coast primarily Summer, but all year long. Canadians come during the winter, most from B.C. and also Calgary/Edmonton. The Japanese come all the time. And I think there is a significant European volume which is growing. Maybe not the Caribbean or Sri Lanka/Maldives, etc., but significant.

I just got back from Maui and Honolulu and met a large number of Europeans (mainly Germans), so they are definitely not afraid of long flights. At the airport were the usual Korean/JAL/ANA flights to Korea and Japan, but also Air China, not to mention Philippine.

Hawaii has a lot to offer, and it is not a clone of places like Cancun. Many, if not most visitors, tend to think it is significantly different. Much more than just beaches.
 
jayunited
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:49 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 24):
Believe it or not, there are people who pay for F to fly to Hawaii. Some of the people who pay $1000+/night on private bungalows think nothing of paying for F. Enough to fill an entire cabin, no, but there is some amount of paid F on these flights.

I agree with you but the number of people paying for F is extremely low. UA uses a 772 with 30 seats in first class although F goes out completely full everyday UA at most sells only 6-10 seats on the flight every other seat is filled with people who have upgraded and very few people are upgraded at the airport because most have already upgraded using their miles and a copay. The same is probably true with DL and when NW operated the route. Perhaps on the West Coast airlines are actually selling more seats in F but that just isn't the case when you get to the Midwest a lot of our most loyal business travelers save their miles just so they can use them to upgrade to F on their trip to Hawaii or some other vacation destination but Hawaii is notorious for this.
 
Prost
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 7:36 pm

Anecdotally, from SEA my parents were going to HNL, Y fare was approximately $450 each, and by buying a vacation package (air, hotel and transfer) F was on $780. Not a bad value proposition in my book. (This was a while ago, but vacation packages frequently have decent prices on paid F fares).
 
797
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Mon Dec 01, 2014 11:56 pm

Looks like I'm one of those who went nuts and booked a J ticket to Hawaii then. Honeymoon, yes!

I'm flying all the way from CCS so it's a bit more justified. Now, the 8-hr trip from ATL up-front, will it be have full service (international like) or the crappy domestic Business service like the regular ATL LAX with the shitty pillows and blankets?
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TW870
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:01 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 36):
As an airline, DL wants loyal customers who will pick them regardless of ticket price--and this is one major way to do that.

I agree - although I think the SkyMiles redemption question doesn't rank highly for DL's overall evaluation of this route. Overall, I would guess that they are thinking that the A333 is a relatively Y-heavy aircraft with a relatively low CASM to put on a market at a slow (systemwide) time of the year. I bet they see relatively high Y fares as the driver on this route, and that the high Y fares make up for relatively weak F-class demand. The billions of SkyMiles are already a liability on the books for DL, and they might as well put loyal customers up front on a flight that, overall, will operate because of the potential yields in the back.
 
questions
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Tue Dec 02, 2014 5:37 am

I don't understand those who believe DL created this route to gain loyalty among its FF base through making a highly sought after destination available for mostly SkyMiles redemption passengers. Delta doesn not really care about that. DL only cares to make enough seats available to enough destinations to keep them out of trouble -- ie, over marketing something that is way too difficult to obtain.

I find it difficult to believe local authorities think there is no greater economically advantageous route than MSP-HNL. But they ARE either politicians or pseudo politicians after all so I shouldn't be surprised by the lack of intellectual horsepower.
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:30 pm

Here it is:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-...onolulu-minneapolis-202300812.html

Quote:
The flight will operate beginning Oct. 25, 2015 through March 26, 2016 using a 225-seat Boeing 767-300ER aircraft with 25 full flat-bed seats in BusinessElite, 29 seats in Economy Comfort and 171 Economy class seats
 
Prost
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:31 pm

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-...onolulu-minneapolis-202300812.html

Press release, the aircraft will br a 76Z with 25 B/E seats (1 seat saved for pilot crew rest) and 200 economy seats.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:47 pm

It's bookable. Did a dummy search a couple hours ago. One step closer!

Interesting though that they're starting at a slower time of late October. That was a time period when non-revving was easiest.
 
Flighty
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:53 pm

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 48):

Here it is:
Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 50):
Interesting though that they're starting at a slower time of late October. That was a time period when non-revving was easiest.

It seems to be a seasonal. (Confirmed in the PR release: SEASONAL). For the sake of argument, they could use the aircraft to Rome from May 1 to early October, and do that as a seasonal summer route.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:31 pm

Yes it's scheduled to end late March. It's a strange schedule. Summer is still a high time and this won't touch it.
 
jetlanta
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:21 pm

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 52):
Yes it's scheduled to end late March. It's a strange schedule. Summer is still a high time and this won't touch it.

The aircraft is flying to Hawaii during the IATA Winter Season exactly. In the Summer Season, it will head to Europe, where it has better revenue opportunity.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Tue Dec 02, 2014 11:49 pm

http://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/travel/257613521.html

Per the Article:

MSP-HNL
364 passengers/day Q1
191 passenger/day average for 2013

Doing the math, the average is 133 passengers per day Q2-Q4. That doesn't even factor in the seasonality where Q3 likely bottoms out at even less per day.

They'd be better to throw the plane on another MSP-AMS flight in the summer and make better use of the aircraft than flying MSP-HNL
 
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compensateme
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Wed Dec 03, 2014 12:15 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 30):
I think the true reason was one that DL wouldn't state - a fairly well performing route was cut in attempt to make more elsewhere.

We've been through this several times before -- you've yet to provide evidence to support that MSP/HNL was a "fairly well performing route." There's a substantial amount of traffic between MSP/HNL for a multi-week stretch in the winter, but the rest of the year the market couldn't fill a regional jet; at the time of MSP/HNL's cancellation, average recent winter airfares were dwarfed by several west coast markets. It's absolutely asinine to insist that DL cancelled a profitable winter market then idled the aircraft "just because".

Quote:
That's why it burned people up here so much.

The problems is that the a.net "Leged of MSP/HNL" is based on a lie.

Historically, MSP/HNL operated in low frequency during the heart of the winter (typically 4-6 weeks). After NW became a network carrier and through the 1990s, frequency and duration gradually increased but it remained seasonal. In the early 2000s, NW dropped SFO-HNL and one of two LAX flights and extended MSP to year-round. Shortly afterward, LAX was dropped and one of two SEA flights cut and MSP was increased to twice-daily. The route operated for slightly more than a year as such before NW abruptly rescinded the second daily to seasonal. About a year after that, the 753 restored West Coast services and MSP was dropped to daily. Before the merger was even announced, MSP was seeing heavy frequency reductions in the spring & fall (including idling the flight in September).

MSP-HNL operated daily for about 8 years, double-daily for one and seasonal double-daily for two (CVG-HNL operated for DL during the time period in which MSP went double-daily, FWIW). Reality is far different than the long-time a.net narrative...

[Edited 2014-12-02 16:19:34]
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
MSPNWA
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:23 am

Quoting jetlanta (Reply 41):
The aircraft is flying to Hawaii during the IATA Winter Season exactly. In the Summer Season, it will head to Europe, where it has better revenue opportunity.

Flying MSP-HNL during the country's low season to Hawaii is a good plan for it not to return for another year. Locally it should do great, since it hits the highest three months. But if MSP-HNL eats too much into the West Coast flights, it won't be a good outlook.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 42):
Doing the math, the average is 133 passengers per day Q2-Q4. That doesn't even factor in the seasonality where Q3 likely bottoms out at even less per day.

If MSP-HNL traffic was all that mattered I think you'd have a better point. Traffic from the Upper Midwest is highly seasonal in favor of Q1, but the farther east you go it actually reverses by a similar amount. This flight appears to be timed for local and near regional traffic and little else.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 43):

We've been through this several times before

We have and I'm still waiting for a shred on your end. I'm not going there again.

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 43):
Before the merger was even announced, MSP was seeing heavy frequency reductions in the spring & fall (including idling the flight in September).

Don't go talking about a.net lies when you follow with this statement. I just checked the BTS website for September of 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007. It jived with my memory of no significant reduction in service, let alone an outright suspension. Make sure your statements are true before they're posted like that. Then you'll have some credibility.

And besides you're still avoiding the point. At no time since at least the mid-1990s has MSP-HNL not been flown for four and half years. That's the bottom line here. Things changed with the widget, and customers like me aren't happy.
 
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compensateme
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:48 am

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 44):
We have and I'm still waiting for a shred on your end. I'm not going there again.

Let's compare...

My argument:
- Outside an 8-week winter stretch, NW/DL's historic market share on MSP/HNL wouldn't fill a daily SF3 (and that assumes everybody traveling MSP/HNL on NW/DL took the nonstop, which isn't true).
- Even during the winter months, MSP/HNL fares were dwarfed by several West Coast markets, and at least a third less than those from other gateways of similar length.
- Most telling, DL scrapped MSP/HNL even during the winter stretch, despite plenty of idle widebody capacity within its fleet.
- DL is a publicly traded, for-profit company.
- Fuel prices have heavy impact on marginal, long haul leisure destinations.

Your argument:
- You believe MSP/HNL printed money, therefore it must have.
- You believe DL scrapped MSP/HNL, despite plenty of idle widebody capacity in the winter, to screw MSP.

Quoting MSPNWA (Reply 44):
Don't go talking about a.net lies when you follow with this statement. I just checked the BTS website for September of 2004, 2005, 2006, and 2007. It jived with my memory of no significant reduction in service, let alone an outright suspension. Make sure your statements are true before they're posted like that. Then you'll have some credibility.

And besides you're still avoiding the point. At no time since at least the mid-1990s has MSP-HNL not been flown for four and half years. That's the bottom line here. Things changed with the widget, and customers like me aren't happy.

You're right, I goofed - the suspension began in 2009. Regardless, it doesn't change the context of what I wrote: daily MSP-HNL lasted less than 8 years, double-daily less than 2 years (half of which was seasonal); the extension to daily service re-flowed traffic from the west coast and was not new capacity being introduced into the MSP market. MSP-HNL is hardly the legend that it's made out to be on here.

Daily, year-round MSP/HNL service existed to satisfy the realities of a FF world (including things like the bulk purchase of miles from partners like US Bank). Once NW was absorbed into DL, that was no longer necessary.

Not happy about it? Fly another airline.

[Edited 2014-12-02 17:50:35]
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:22 am

The whole thing boils down to the fact that the MAC and apparently a few MSP posters have an over-inflated view of self importance about having nonstop HNL service.

The fact that DL is going to seasonally return to this route should be appreciated and not criticized since they are not going to operate it year-round.
 
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Miami
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:59 am

Schedule:

DL1664 MSP1145 – 1549HNL 76W D
DL1653 HNL1717 – 0600+1MSP 76W D

http://airlineroute.net/2014/12/03/dl-msphnl-w15/
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adamspotter
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:49 pm

Quoting mplsjefe (Reply 8):
With the KLM metal going on AMS-BOM, that likely will free up a bird or two as well.

Since when has it been announced that KL metal is taking over AMS-BOM? Only thing announced so far is DL ending AMS-BOM  
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: DL To Resume MSP-HNL In 2015

Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:41 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 47):

Schedule:

DL1664 MSP1145 – 1549HNL 76W D
DL1653 HNL1717 – 0600+1MSP 76W D

Do we have a 767 base in MSP yet? Or will these be based in JFK/ATL/DTW and routed through somewhere like AMS?
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