ordbosewr
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:35 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 49):
It's not exactly "thin". EWR and JFK both have more than 100 PDEW and LGA adds a few more as well. The NYC total market size is somewhere around 250 PDEW.

If it wasn't thin then there would be more than more than 1 daily non-stop between the cities using a A319.
Sorry, but that is the definition of thin to me.
 
tommy767
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:47 pm

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
Well, it looks like CVG may be funding the SEA build-up. This is the first pull-back there in a while. Don't they have a flight commitment?
*DL CVG-BWI MAR 3>1.9
*DL CVG-CLT MAR 3>1.8 APR 3>0.9 MAY 3>0.8 JUN 3>1.5 JUL 3>1.7 AUG 3>1.7
*DL CVG-EWR MAR 4>3 JUL 4>3 AUG 4>3
*DL CVG-PHL MAR 4>1.7 APR 4>1.7 MAY 4>1.7 JUN 4>1.7 JUL 4>1.7 AUG 4>1.7
*DL CVG-RDU MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7 AUG 3>1.7

I think these are just further casualties of slimming down the CVG hub -- although interesting that BWI/CLT/PHL/RDU went to 1.7 while EWR stays at 3.

I'm thinking those CR2s operating the routes are not going to SEA.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:50 pm

Quoting N62NA (Reply 23):
Quoting Thomaas (Reply 22):
connecting in EWR from YVR doesn't make much sense. AC's own hub in YYZ can handle the international connection and the rest can be fed through ORD.

Which once again underscores the ridiculousness of EWR functioning as a "hub" airport.

UA/EWR have more passengers every day than any one of the following competitors in the vicinity :

DL/LGA
DL/JFK
AA/LGA
AA/JFK
B6/JFK

If there's any true hub, it is UA/EWR. Ignore all you want, but EWR as a single connecting point is far more coherent than having to make the LGA-JFK land connection.

UA can support EWR-PEK/PVG/HKG/DEL/BOM while neither DL nor AA could any of those 5 I've listed, despite hubbing at the JFK (the one you consider "proper NYC").
 
lhcvg
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:54 pm

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 7):

And those aren't core DL markets ex-CVG so perfect for a few drawdowns. RDU probably largest standalone market for DL (thinking that DL has bigger CVG-xxx ops in both WAS and NYC at other airports but RDU is it for that market), then CLT and PHL obviously US hubs that DL doesn't have the angle on (vs. say DCA where they have good lock on the ex-CVG business traffic). These days I'd say averaging about 2x daily ex-CVG is still pretty good for you (as the destination)!
 
Thomaas
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:55 pm

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 48):
The westbound segment is timed to Asia. Why would a UA customer fly through YVR vs other UA hubs to Asia.

Better product maybe. AC also tends to have very competitive fares to Asia.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:02 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 54):
Better product maybe. AC also tends to have very competitive fares to Asia.

Most of the time, yes, but I'll be careful not to step onto one of their famed high density 3-4-3 77W sardine cans.
 
ordbosewr
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:23 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 54):
Better product maybe. AC also tends to have very competitive fares to Asia.

But the reality is that with all of the MileagePlus rules that things like PQD only matter on UA metal or UA stock probably means the fare benefits are limited by not getting mileage reward. If I was to go EWR-

I will admit I am EWR based UA flier, living in central NJ, so I would pick UA over AC all the time. Heck, I just did when flying to YYZ, the product didn't matter to me. I am sure I am not unique on both sides.

from YVR you can go to:
Beijing (UA from SFO, EWR)
Tokyo (UA from EWR and SFO)
Hong Kong (UA from EWR and SFO)
Sydney (UA from SFO and LAX)
Shanghai (UA from SFO, EWR)
Nagoya
and many destinations in Canada and Alaska

So the only Asia destination on AC that you can't get non-stop on UA is Nagayo.
That tells me if you are connecting on AC to asia then you must want to fly AC or you are getting a dirt cheap flight.
 
lhcvg
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:25 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 52):

That is something I think more people need to give UA credit for -- indeed no one else has a true, unified connecting hub in NYC. Sure, LGA and JFK are both "preferred" over EWR overall, but the split hub is still not the same thing as EWR, ORD, DFW, etc. I see what AA and DL are doing, and grant that it works pretty well, but UA does get to take advantage of some connections that are just not viable or useful otherwise.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:33 pm

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 56):


So the only Asia destination on AC that you can't get non-stop on UA is Nagayo.

You mean NGO Nagoya Chubu ? AC cancelled that a while back, along with YVR-KIX. I'm still nostalgic for the good ole' days when the YVR ops were still called Canadian Pacific.
 
Rdh3e
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:27 pm

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 50):
If it wasn't thin then there would be more than more than 1 daily non-stop between the cities using a A319.
Sorry, but that is the definition of thin to me.

It's not thin, it's fragmented. There is a huge difference. The market is there, but the non-stop has to compete with one-stops via YYZ, YYC, YUL, ORD, MSP, and SEA. (Plus DEN/SLC to a lesser extent)

It's a highly competitive market and because of those options the fare environment is not there to maintain much non-stop service.
 
tommy767
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:36 pm

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 57):
That is something I think more people need to give UA credit for -- indeed no one else has a true, unified connecting hub in NYC.

Overrated, IMHO. It's nice that DL has 2 hubs in NYC -- one for more of the domestic business routes and another for international (plus a good amount of domestic too.)

Everytime I go to EWR I cringe of how poorly it's run from an on-time standpoint.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
Thomaas
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:29 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 60):

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 57):
That is something I think more people need to give UA credit for -- indeed no one else has a true, unified connecting hub in NYC.

Overrated, IMHO. It's nice that DL has 2 hubs in NYC -- one for more of the domestic business routes and another for international (plus a good amount of domestic too.)

Everytime I go to EWR I cringe of how poorly it's run from an on-time standpoint.

Yet UA is able to offer more destinations from NYC because it has a single hub.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:32 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 60):

Everytime I go to EWR I cringe of how poorly it's run from an on-time standpoint.

Right ... because LGA and JFK are glittering beams of on-time role models .... =p
 
tommy767
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:37 am

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 61):

I mean, that's great for UA but I don't like riding cattle in the back of a 737 for 6 hours on a transcon or taking an ERJ on a 3 hour flight either. I'll go over to JFK where it's generally cheaper and on a more superior aircraft (DL 763) or take a connection to use mainline. To each his or her own.

Last time I checked, JFK caters more to Manhattan than EWR. And between all the different airlines at JFK, not to mention it being home to THREE AIRLINE HUBS on it's property -- there is certainly more variety on more carriers to international destinations (and with less delays). Huge bonus in my book.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:44 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 63):
. And between all the different airlines at JFK, not to mention it being home to THREE AIRLINE HUBS on it's property -- there is certainly more variety on more carriers to international destinations (and with less delays). Huge bonus in my book.

But that doesn't change the fact that split hubs significantly reduces connection opportunities and variety of destinations.

Want JFK-MUC on AA or DL ? No can do. But I'm sure you'll enjoy that LHR T3 to T5 transit or trying to navigate around the Rubic's Cube known as CDG.
 
tommy767
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:44 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 62):
Right ... because LGA and JFK are glittering beams of on-time role models .... =p

Right ... because LGA and JFK are glittering beams of on-time role models .... =p

EWR got 72, JFK 76, LGA (surprisingly) 78. 4-6% higher is significant especially when JFK is just a larger airport in general.

Source: http://www.rita.dot.gov/bts/subject_...ine_ontime_tables/2013_12/table_06

[Edited 2014-12-03 16:46:44]
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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N62NA
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:25 am

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 48):

I think this is funny. talk to many millions of people that connect through EWR every year

EWR is an over-congested mess... on a sunny day. Add a raindrop and it grinds to a halt.
 
Thomaas
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:29 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 63):
mean, that's great for UA but I don't like riding cattle in the back of a 737 for 6 hours on a transcon or taking an ERJ on a 3 hour flight either. I'll go over to JFK where it's generally cheaper and on a more superior aircraft (DL 763) or take a connection to use mainline. To each his or her own.

Last time I checked, JFK caters more to Manhattan than EWR. And between all the different airlines at JFK, not to mention it being home to THREE AIRLINE HUBS on it's property -- there is certainly more variety on more carriers to international destinations (and with less delays). Huge bonus in my book.

On routes that DL flies 767s, UA flies 757s from JFK (LAX & SFO) so the product is very similar. UA is the carrier that offers the most destinations from NYC, you can bet that if DL or AA could build what UA has at EWR they would leave JFK and LGA without any second thoughts. UA offers the most comprehensive network from the New York area, one only has to look at Asia where United flies to BOM, DEL, PVG, PEK, HKG and NRT where DL only gets you to NRT and AA doesn't have a single flight on its own metal to Asia.
 
ordbosewr
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:54 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 66):
EWR is an over-congested mess... on a sunny day. Add a raindrop and it grinds to a halt.

That may very well be the case, but it still has millions of passengers and is used a hub in that role.
So many people do not mind dealing with that.

I have experienced everything you are saying (long delays, etc), yet I don't travel to JFK or PHL or anywhere else, because EWR gives me what I need.
I also have a person that I work with that has no problem and prefers to connect on UA through EWR than other UA hubs (to BOS). There are people that do not mind it and it is why CO had a very profitable hub at EWR.
 
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N62NA
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:57 am

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 67):
you can bet that if DL or AA could build what UA has at EWR they would leave JFK and LGA without any second thought

Absolutely, completely not true. They had ample opportunity to build an EWR hub, but to them, EWR is a "second tier" airport - it always has been (and even to UA, if not for their purchase of CO).
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:03 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 65):

72 and 76 are meaningless differences when all 3 are probably ranked in the bottom 5 nationally

Go to JFK and see how you'll fly nonstop to PVG or BOM or MUC on ANY US carrier ? Whoops you can't.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:27 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 52):

UA can support EWR-PEK/PVG/HKG/DEL/BOM
Quoting Thomaas (Reply 67):
one only has to look at Asia where United flies to BOM, DEL, PVG, PEK, HKG and NRT where DL only gets you to NRT and AA doesn't have a single flight on its own metal to Asia.

Except one (meaning both of you) fail to mention the plethora on flights from JFK to those destinations on foreign airlines that UA/CO doesn't have to contend with at EWR.

How does AA or DL fly to HKG when CX has 4 daily? How do they compete with that? Why compete with that? Especially in the case of AA when they can just slap their code on the CX flight.


As for India, I wonder the long term viability of EWR-India nonstop on UA/CO. Things have changed in the subcontinent with the ME3. We will see how things go. One thing I will put money on...further India expansion that CO in the mid 2000s forecasted nonstop from EWR will not happen.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:42 am

Quoting jfklganyc (Reply 71):

CX has been 1 stop to JFK until their leased 346s reach JFK nonstop. They've been only 1x daily nonstop for good parts of the 2000s. No one was preventing AA or DL to join in then but they sat there watching CX totally take over the market until nothing is left for them.

What so scary about foreign carriers ? Are you suggesting the world's largest and second largest carriers can't compete against foreigner carriers on their own turf , from the largest and richest aviation market in the US? Virtually every long haul route for UA out of SFO and LAX has foreign competition, yet they manage to hold on fine (rare exceptions like KIX or CTU where UA has monopoly)

You can question BOM / DEL all you want, but fact is despite AI competing on those same routes along with ME3 and all the EU options, UA has yet to announce any downguage or reduction of frequency. It's still daily 777s with 100J seats to India each way each day.
 
tommy767
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:51 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 70):

Actually its a big difference. Your opinion isn't the only one.

And hey, JFK has no delayed or cancelled UAEX flights! That's heaven to me!
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:14 am

With the new schedule update, it appears that all the ZW flights have been removed, and are now being flown by 9E or RP

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
*DL CVG-BWI MAR 3>1.9
*DL CVG-CLT MAR 3>1.8 APR 3>0.9 MAY 3>0.8 JUN 3>1.5 JUL 3>1.7 AUG 3>1.7
*DL CVG-EWR MAR 4>3 JUL 4>3 AUG 4>3
*DL CVG-PHL MAR 4>1.7 APR 4>1.7 MAY 4>1.7 JUN 4>1.7 JUL 4>1.7 AUG 4>1.7
*DL CVG-RDU MAR 3>1.7 APR 3>1.7 MAY 3>1.7 JUN 3>1.7 JUL 3>1.7 AUG 3>1.7

CVG-CLT: 3x Su, M, Th, F; 2x Tu, Wed; 0x Sa - all flown with RP ERJ
CVG-EWR: this one is being reduced to 3x Sun-Fr (0x Sat) all 9E CRJ
CVG-PHL: 4x Su, M, W, Th, F; 3x Tu; 0x Sa - all RP ERJ
CVG-RDU: 3x Su-Fri, 0x Sat - 2 RP ERJ + 1 9E CRJ

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL DTW-ATW FEB 4>3 MAR 4>3 APR 4>3 MAY 4>3 JUN 4>3

Will operate at 4x on weekdays
Feb: M-F 4x (2 9E CRJ, 1 EV CR7, 1 9E CR9), Sa 1x 9E CR9, Sun 2x (1 9E CRJ, 1 OO CRJ)
Mar: M-F 4x (2 OO CRJ, 1 9E CRJ, 1 9E CR9), Sa 0x, Su 3x - (1 OO CRJ, 1 9E CRJ, 1 9E CR9)
Apr and beyond: M-F 4x (2 OO CRJ, 2 9E CRJ), Sa 1x 9E CRJ, Su 3x (1 OO CRJ, 2 9E CRJ)

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL DTW-BTV MAR 3>1.9 APR 3>1.9 MAY 3>1.8 JUN 4>3 JUL 4>3 AUG 4>3

Mar-May: M-F 3x EV CRJ, Sa 1 EV CRJ, Sun 2 EV CRJ

Quoting enilria (Thread starter):
DL DTW-YUL MAR 5>3 APR 5>4 MAY 5>4 JUN 5>4 JUL 5>4 AUG 5>4

Mar-beyond M-F 5x (4 RP ERJ + 1 9E CRJ), Sa 3 RP ERJ, Sun 4 (3 RP ERJ + 1 9E CRJ)

etc....
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:19 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 73):

Of course my opinion doesnt count since you enjoy more connections to boost your EQS count

Oh Ya, and feel free to use your AA SWU on that CX flight you're so fond of. Whoops, you can't.
 
Thomaas
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:18 am

Quoting N62NA (Reply 69):
Quoting Thomaas (Reply 67):
you can bet that if DL or AA could build what UA has at EWR they would leave JFK and LGA without any second thought

Absolutely, completely not true. They had ample opportunity to build an EWR hub, but to them, EWR is a "second tier" airport - it always has been (and even to UA, if not for their purchase of CO).

DL is just starting to turn a profit in NYC and AA isn't very profitable as evidenced by their ever-shrinking schedule and the fact that they cancelled much of the buildout of their terminal. They might have seen EWR as a second-tier airport in the past but CO has built it up to be a true global gateway.
 
alfa164
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:53 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 73):
And hey, JFK has no delayed or cancelled UAEX flights! That's heaven to me!

        

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 75):
Oh Ya, and feel free to use your AA SWU on that CX flight you're so fond of. Whoops, you can't

Ya, and feel free to upgrade on all those UAEX flights out of EWR you are so fond of Whoops, you can
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
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enilria
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 51):
I'm thinking those CR2s operating the routes are not going to SEA.

The exact planes no, but the ASMs essentially yes if the CVG cuts sticks...

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 74):
With the new schedule update, it appears that all the ZW flights have been removed, and are now being flown by 9E or RP

So it appears that about half of those cuts are happening. Given that Endeavor doesn't have enough pilots to continue their schedule what happens ultimately?
 
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:08 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 78):
So it appears that about half of those cuts are happening. Given that Endeavor doesn't have enough pilots to continue their schedule what happens ultimately?

I mean I don't even know what constitutes a "cut" these days since DL so much seasonal, monthly, weekly, and day-of-the week adjustments. There is always such variance in the initial load versus the close-in schedule hard to do a base-line comparison.

The JFK stuff isn't changing either. JFK-ORF is to be flown with an RP ERJ too. JFK-IAD is staying at 3x weekdays.

I didn't do the math on how that all compares.
Again, in most of the cases the peak weekday frequency is the same, but they've adjusted out non-peak and weekend flying.

Heck even before, basically all the non-hub flying on CVG, RDU, and MEM did not operate on Saturday. That is nothing new.

Another interesting trend, that is as such low frequency it doesn't show up in your report, but DL is doing some Saturday-only CRJ-200 flying to ATL from DTW spokes.

Markets like AZO, LAN, MBS, SCE now will be getting a Saturday-only ATL flight, using an aircraft that on weekdays would operate a DTW flight, starting in March.
 
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enilria
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:21 pm

Quoting DTW.SCE" class="quote" target="_blank">PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 79):
Another interesting trend, that is as such low frequency it doesn't show up in your report, but DL is doing some Saturday-only CRJ-200 flying to ATL from DTW spokes.

Markets like AZO, LAN, MBS, SCE now will be getting a Saturday-only ATL flight, using an aircraft that on weekdays would operate a DTW flight, starting in March.

I would assume that is to support Caribbean and Latin leisure services via ATL that can't be accessed via the weekday schedule.
 
lhcvg
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:24 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 60):

I don't see a normative point here, my intention was just to note the difference. It is a fact that UA has the only "true hub" in NYC, but it is also true that the market is sufficiently bifurcated that you can do the two-hub thing and make it work.

It's similar for those of us living "inside the Beltway" in the DC area, where DCA is FAR more convenient. As long as your travel is within the perimeter there really is no contest due to the fare situation at IAD. If the fares were lower at IAD maybe things would be different, but as-is it's only really worth the trek if you're going out West and the limited DCA exemptions are too expensive or schedules don't work for you, or of course for international. This works just fine, but still if given the choice for a notional consolidated airport somewhere in the area I'd bet airlines would jump at the chance.
 
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:25 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 80):
I would assume that is to support Caribbean and Latin leisure services via ATL that can't be accessed via the weekday schedule.

Correct, better access to the Saturday-only service sun/beach markets from ATL, cruise ports, Florida.
Plus on Saturdays, the traffic pattern shifts heavily to North/South leisure traffic versus weekday business traffic
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:33 pm

Quoting alfa164 (Reply 77):
Ya, and feel free to upgrade on all those UAEX flights out of EWR you are so fond of Whoops, you can

Right ... because AA has 100% F coverage in their LGA and JFK offerings ....

My time is precious, so between a 2.5 hour RJ ride with no F versus 5.5 hours including connection time (and chance of misconnect) for the privilege of riding in front cabin, I'll take the quicker option.

[Edited 2014-12-04 07:37:28]
 
tommy767
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:41 pm

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 67):
On routes that DL flies 767s, UA flies 757s from JFK (LAX & SFO) so the product is very similar.

I've done both and the product is quite different. DL has economy comfort that is comped for elites. That means free food, booze, pillow/blanket, amenity kit and unrestricted AVOD content. DL's J product is definitely more superior as well. And BTW: Economy comfort is free for silvers 24 hours beforehand. That means while a UA silver is stuck in E+ (maybe) for free, they get charged for everything else except AVOD content.

UA's "new" J product on PS is essentially a copy of the 10+ year old sCO J class product. Hardly anything to get excited about.

The other thing (and this is an even bigger factor) is a lot of the LAX-JFK flights are on 763. UA doesn't fly widebodies anymore east to west, even from EWR.

Quoting ordbosewr (Reply 68):
There are people that do not mind it and it is why CO had a very profitable hub at EWR.

Why we bringing up CO? They are not around anymore.

Quoting LHCVG (Reply 81):
It is a fact that UA has the only "true hub" in NYC, but it is also true that the market is sufficiently bifurcated that you can do the two-hub thing and make it work.

That's the thing -- the hub isn't in NYC! It's in Elizabeth, NJ. That's not NYC last time I checked and hence why LGA and JFK have more Manhattan bound passenger.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 84):

UA's "new" J product on PS is essentially a copy of the 10+ year old sCO J class product. Hardly anything to get excited about.

Funny you brought that up since AA DL UA all use the exact identical seat for their premium transcon to SFO/LAX/SEA from JFK.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 84):

That's the thing -- the hub isn't in NYC! It's in Elizabeth, NJ. That's not NYC last time I checked and hence why LGA and JFK have more Manhattan bound passenger.

With your logic, DL doesn't have an Ohio hub either ... it's in Kentucky. And neither JAL nor ANA has a long-haul hub in "Tokyo", since that airport is in Chiba prefecture. Of course KE/OZ doesn't hub in Seoul because it's all way out at Incheon city.

And you can daydream all your want, but straight line distance from midtown Manhattan, EWR is closer than JFK.
 
tommy767
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:59 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 85):
And you can daydream all your want, but straight line distance from midtown Manhattan, EWR is closer than JFK.

More passengers go from JFK to Manhattan than from EWR. Fact. But you can keep daydreaming all you want.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 85):
Funny you brought that up since AA DL UA all use the exact identical seat for their premium transcon to SFO/LAX/SEA from JFK.

??? No....

DL uses a completely different seat on their 763s. AA has a different F seat as well.
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jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:12 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 86):
More passengers go from JFK to Manhattan than from EWR. Fact. But you can keep daydreaming all you want.

3 airlines hub there versus 1 in EWR, duh. If 3 airlines combined can't beat 1 airline, I'll be very worried.

And it's funny you keep bringing up UAEX when it's a FACT that DL is the only legacy carrier that is 100% RJ on LGA-ORD. Sad fact for you.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 86):
DL uses a completely different seat on their 763s. AA has a different F seat as well.

DL uses the same seat on their 757s. AA F is not comparable since that's a F cabin with F prices. We're talking J here.

And I don't know why you bring the 763s, since I see a very good chunk of the DL transcon performed by 757s (which only has 16J instead of 28J on UA p.s.)
 
tommy767
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:15 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 87):
And it's funny you keep bringing up UAEX when it's a FACT that DL is the only legacy carrier that is 100% RJ on LGA-ORD. Sad fact for you.

I really don't care. Chill out.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 87):
And I don't know why you bring the 763s, since I see a very good chunk of the DL transcon performed by 757s (which only has 16J instead of 28J on UA p.s.)

Wrong. There are at least 4x 763 on LAX-JFK daily.
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commavia
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:34 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 84):
That's the thing -- the hub isn't in NYC! It's in Elizabeth, NJ. That's not NYC last time I checked and hence why LGA and JFK have more Manhattan bound passenger.

Meh. This has been argued here for years. EWR is obviously not literally within the geographic boundaries of New York City, but it absolutely caters to a massive amount of travelers to/from New York City - in particular Manhattan and Staten Island.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 85):
Funny you brought that up since AA DL UA all use the exact identical seat for their premium transcon to SFO/LAX/SEA from JFK.

Neither AA nor United regularly schedule their premium transcon product on JFK-SEA - only JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO. And as for the rest of the statement - it is true that AA, Delta and United all use the "exact identical seat" for their Business Class product between JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO, although of course AA additionally has a First Class product in these markets which is different (better).

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 86):
More passengers go from JFK to Manhattan than from EWR. Fact. But you can keep daydreaming all you want.

Okay. EWR is still an airport in the Tri-State area, and NYC metro, and caters to New York City big time. It's also by far the best hub in the region, and the northeast, because for all its shortcomings its one of only two hubs in the entire region (the other being PHL) that can cater to both local O&D and connections, domestic and international/longhaul, all throughout the day. EWR is an awesome hub that any airline would want.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:38 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 88):

Wrong. There are at least 4x 763 on LAX-JFK daily.

That's worthless to anyone bound for SEA or SFO.

So you're basically saying I have to schedule my life around 4 flight times just to have all-aisle access J ? When AA offers 13x daily ?
 
tommy767
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:49 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 89):
EWR is an awesome hub that any airline would want.

Highly debatable. It's conjested, delay prone, has overcrowded terminals, and is certainly no fun to fly in and out of (at least it never is for me and I can't be the only one). Not to mention PITA train and roadway access as well. I don't get the love affair with it here when people complain EWR everywhere else -- from other online forums to word of mouth. Seems to be one of the more disliked airports in America -- up there with the ORD.

But hey, I guess some people love being delayed in a food court in terminal C. I personally like getting to where I need to go on-time with no BS.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 90):
So you're basically saying I have to schedule my life around 4 flight times just to have all-aisle access J ? When AA offers 13x daily ?

Really? 4x a day isn't good enough for you? On 11/26 DL had 767s on the 6:45am, 9:15am, 11:30am & 12:45pm to JFK from LAX. Pretty darn convienient for most people.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:54 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 91):

Really? 4x a day isn't good enough for you? On 11/26 DL had 767s on the 6:45am, 9:15am, 11:30am & 12:45pm to JFK from LAX. Pretty darn convienient for most people.

If 4x is good enough, then why is DL running like 8x and AA running like 13x ? For the fun of it ?

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 91):
Not to mention PITA train and roadway access as well.

I'm glad there's no "PITA train" to LGA to deal with since there's no train at all. From my office in Financial District on a friday late afternoon, I can guarantee reaching EWR terminal by train within 1 hour, but I most certainly cannot make that guarantee with LGA (god knows what BQE is like at 5pm)
 
tommy767
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:02 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 92):
I'm glad there's no "PITA train" to LGA to deal with since there's no train at all. From my office in Financial District on a friday late afternoon, I can guarantee reaching EWR terminal by train within 1 hour, but I most certainly cannot make that guarantee with LGA (god knows what BQE is like at 5pm)

The secret is take the subway to woodside (queens) and a cab from there which is no more than $10-15 from there to LGA.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 92):

If 4x is good enough, then why is DL running like 8x and AA running like 13x ? For the fun of it ?

Different reasons altogether. AA has studio contracts to attend to and is trying to be THE BEST on LAX-JFK using the new 321. DL holds it's own in the market (and certainly has increased over the years) but handles a lot more of the TATL and domestic connections into Kennedy. DL has more of a network for that anyway in JFK.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
commavia
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:29 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 91):
Highly debatable. It's conjested, delay prone, has overcrowded terminals, and is certainly no fun to fly in and out of (at least it never is for me and I can't be the only one).

So, in other words, EWR is ... an airport in a major metro area in the northeastern U.S.

It's still an incredibly lucrative hub - massive local market generating immense domestic and longhaul O&D, which in turn supports extensive omnidirectional connectivity, and not just at peak times for a given direction of traffic flow, but all throughout the day. EWR is the "gold medal" of northeastern U.S. hubs, even for all its shortcomings.
 
tommy767
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:45 pm

Quoting commavia (Reply 94):
So, in other words, EWR is ... an airport in a major metro area in the northeastern U.S.

Not exactly. The experiences out of other airports including JFK, DCA, IAD, BWI, PHL, BOS have been superior to EWR, IMHO.

Not debating how lucrative it is but for such a "goldmine" you'd figure they'd find a way to make it better from an operational standpoint with more mainline and less express planes.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:50 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 95):

Not debating how lucrative it is but for such a "goldmine" you'd figure they'd find a way to make it better from an operational standpoint with more mainline and less express planes.

Funny you mention that. In summer 2014, DL/LGA was 24.5% mainline while UA/EWR was 48.0% mainline, just shy of 2x higher.

www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/6087934/

www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/general_aviation/read.main/6087935/
 
tommy767
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:00 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 96):

Yeah but how many of EWR's 52% express is on single class RJ vs. DL at LGA?

Not saying LGA is a better hub over EWR at all -- I said in 2013 they had less delays than EWR. I said I like the flexability that DL has 2 hubs in NYC.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
jetblue1965
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:12 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 97):

Yeah but how many of EWR's 52% express is on single class RJ vs. DL at LGA?

EWR has higher % single class RJ because it services far more thin destinations that DL touches from neither LGA or JFK
 
tommy767
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RE: OAG Changes 12/5/2014: AC/AS/DL/UA

Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:15 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 98):

Nah, nah, nah. That wasn't my question   
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