Delta's Next Move In CRJ200 Flying

MSJYOP28Apilot · Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:09 am

Now that the deal with ZW for the 9E CRJ200 flying has fallen through, what is the next step for Delta?

The regionals are all having trouble finding new pilots. Many are offering signing bonus and other incentives to maintain and attract new pilots.

9E is getting rid of these CR200s due to being unable to staff them. Delta could try to find a way to keep the CRJ200s at 9E by adjusting the hiring requirements but will they want to do that and can that be successful?

Can ExpressJet or Skywest take and staff the flying?

The number of operators that are willing and able to take the CRJ200s are few. What are the chances Delta simply parks the planes 9E cannot staff?

In the larger picture, what could this mean for cities like DTW, MSP, CVG, RDU that rely on the CRJ200 feed for a good portion of the flying at those hubs and focus cities? Can they support larger RJs or mainline in the markets currently served by CRJ200s?

enilria · Wed Dec 03, 2014 1:47 am

Do we have a link to the letter to the employees from ZW management confirming the deal is dead?

DiamondFlyer · Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:00 am

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Thread starter):
Delta could try to find a way to keep the CRJ200s at 9E by adjusting the hiring requirements but will they want to do that and can that be successful?

How do you propose that, they lobby the federal government to change the regulations or what?

-DiamondFlyer

MSJYOP28Apilot · Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:13 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 2):
How do you propose that, they lobby the federal government to change the regulations or what?

I had heard that the Delta style interview was disqualifying many candidates. I was not sure if maybe Delta allowing 9E to make the interview less challenging would help out staffing?

DiamondFlyer · Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:20 am

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 3):
I was not sure if maybe Delta allowing 9E to make the interview less challenging would help out staffing?

They announced a few weeks ago that the EtD (Endeavor to Delta) program is dead. Even still, why would anyone want to go to an airline that is in the process of being Comair'd

-DiamondFlyer

MSJYOP28Apilot · Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:25 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 4):
They announced a few weeks ago that the EtD (Endeavor to Delta) program is dead. Even still, why would anyone want to go to an airline that is in the process of being Comair'd

Thats precisely the point I was trying make and speculate on. Delta has three options: find a way to keep the 9E flying staffed, find someone else that can do the flying or park the planes.

flight152 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:36 am

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 3):
I was not sure if maybe Delta allowing 9E to make the interview less challenging would help out staffing?

Hardly the case. No one is applying. 7 year first officers are leaving to other regional carriers. Would you apply to a shrinking airline with a subpar work rules and compensation? I sure wouldn't.

MSJYOP28Apilot · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:08 am

Quoting flight152 (Reply 6):
Hardly the case. No one is applying. 7 year first officers are leaving to other regional carriers. Would you apply to a shrinking airline with a subpar work rules and compensation? I sure wouldn't.

So could ExpressJet or Skywest staff the flying or do the flying at rates Delta would agree to? Does Delta just park these planes?

In your opinion, what is Delta going to do? What could it mean for the cities that rely heavily on the CRJ200?

crj900lr · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:20 am

Delta put out a RFP for 50 seaters from Endeavor. ZW, desperate because of the looming end to their contract with US/AA, took the bait but didn't read the small print at first, the part about Deltas strict performance penalties and endless loopholes allowing them to terminate the contract at will (Anyone remember that deal with Mesa?). ZW recognized the trap after finally reading the small print and pulled out of the deal. Now it will be interesting to see what DL does next. Basically you have to play by and agree to DL's rules or you are not going to be a part of their operation.

KaiGywer · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:28 am

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 8):
Basically you have to play by and agree to DL's rules or you are not going to be a part of their operation.

Which makes perfect sense when you look at the big picture. The planes say Delta on the side, so Delta should have final say on how their brand is operated.

flight152 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:44 am

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 7):
So could ExpressJet or Skywest staff the flying or do the flying at rates Delta would agree to

I don't think Delta has much choice but finding terms that work for EV and/or OO. They're selling tickets on those planes; they have to be operated.

bahadir · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:54 am

Staffing is not an issue, pay is. Recently Transtates offered $43/hr for Captain Qualified FOs that they are going to need for their upcoming AA and UA flying. People who are stuck at the bottom of other regionals are leaving to chase this opportunity. There are companies that are working on second round of concessionary contracts or ones that are stuck in a very outdated contracts. Some of the management are still in self denial that they don't see their cost management being the actual problem there.

My personal feelings only of course.

C767P · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:56 am

Quoting flight152 (Reply 10):
I don't think Delta has much choice but finding terms that work for EV and/or OO.

26 airplanes is about 260 pilots or so. Not sure either one can staff that much additional flying. Attrition has been pretty steady, especially at EV.

MSJYOP28Apilot · Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:10 am

Quoting flight152 (Reply 10):
I don't think Delta has much choice but finding terms that work for EV and/or OO. They're selling tickets on those planes; they have to be operated.

OO is parking E120 flying because in their words they are having trouble staffing them and the jet flying. ExpressJet is currently parking CRJ200s. Would either want more CRJ200s?

Out of all the regionals still out there, only those two could possibly have a chance at operating the aircraft now that ZW backed out. Republic is getting out of the 50 seat business with the closing of CHQ. ENY/PSA/PDT are tied down to AAG and have staffing issues of their own. CPZ is reportedly turning down more AAG flying. TSA has a bunch of ERJ flying coming that will be difficult to staff. Mesa has a bunch of CRJ9 and ERJ175 flying its trying to staff and already has gotten out of the 50 seat business. GoJet could enter the 50 seater market but would have trouble staffing.

Delta can park the flying and cancel the flights. Countless flights have had tickets sold on them only for the flights to be cancelled.

If Delta is being as demanding as they are with ZW, it means they either have a back up airline that can staff and do the flying at terms agreeable to Delta or they are content with simply parking the flying if they find no takers for their terms.

If I were OO or EV, I would hold out for the best possible terms now knowing that Delta has few options.

crj900lr · Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:24 am

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 13):
If I were OO or EV, I would hold out for the best possible terms now knowing that Delta has few options.

They already fly for DL under agreed upon terms. What is there to hold out for? One thing DL does not do is play games with their regionals. Either take it or leave it is what it pretty much comes down to.

C767P · Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:34 am

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 14):
They already fly for DL under agreed upon terms. What is there to hold out for?

A CBA can be tail specific (or maybe all are?) and EV or OO taking additional tails can have nothing to do with current contracts. I would assume that because they already do the flying its easier to move the airplanes to them…

I am guessing the planes get parked and CRJs that OO and EV plan to retire in the coming year will be delayed. That is, if it can be staffed.

usflyguy · Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:44 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 9):

Which makes perfect sense when you look at the big picture. The planes say Delta on the side, so Delta should have final say on how their brand is operated.

Which is exactly why ontime performance, customer complaints, and baggage numbers should all be reflected in the mainline carriers numbers...

nws2002 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:37 am

DL could always staff them with their own employees and fly them under their own certificate. Not the most economical option, but certainly doable.

Goldenshield · Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:14 am

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 13):

OO is parking E120 flying because in their words they are having trouble staffing them and the jet flying.

Uh, no they're not. Hiring has very little influence on the decision to drop the E-120. If it was, they wouldn't have stopped training classes for it back in Summer.

Quoting crj900lr (Reply 14):
One thing DL does not do is play games with their regionals. Either take it or leave it is what it pretty much comes down to.

That depends on how you define 'games.'

[Edited 2014-12-03 02:19:58]

DashTrash · Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:14 pm

Quoting bahadir (Reply 11):
Staffing is not an issue, pay is.

Both are issues, and it's not just pay. Quality of life is crap in the regionals.

Quoting C767P (Reply 15):
A CBA can be tail specific (or maybe all are?) and EV or OO taking additional tails can have nothing to do with current contracts.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here, but a pilot group is rarely going to let work rules be tail specific. We would absolutely not allow the same airframe on a single certificate be operated under different work rules depending on what airline's logo was on the tail. In other words, Air Wisconsin pilots would not allow a pilot flying a CRJ-200 with US on the tail to make $50 / hr while and a pilot flying a DAL tail CRJ-200 to make $55 an hour (if that's what you're referring to).

C767P · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:11 pm

Quoting DashTrash (Reply 19):
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here, but a pilot group is rarely going to let work rules be tail specific. We would absolutely not allow the same airframe on a single certificate be operated under different work rules depending on what airline's logo was on the tail. In other words, Air Wisconsin pilots would not allow a pilot flying a CRJ-200 with US on the tail to make $50 / hr while and a pilot flying a DAL tail CRJ-200 to make $55 an hour (if that's what you're referring to).

That is what I am saying. The work rules are no different but the fine print on the specific tail can be different. This is why EV is returning so many ERJs and AX is picking up some of them. UA wanted those airplanes to fly and EV didn’t want to continue flying them at the rate they were, so a bid went out and AX won it.

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 17):
DL could always staff them with their own employees and fly them under their own certificate. Not the most economical option, but certainly doable.

This would be the ideal solution, for DL, UA and AA to bring in the 170/175/CR9/CR7. They control the flying and improve the product. They claim coast is too high to do it. DL has the 175 pay in their contract and AA pilots offered to talk with the company about flying their 175s…

enilria · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:13 pm

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 13):
Out of all the regionals still out there, only those two could possibly have a chance at operating the aircraft now that ZW backed out. Republic is getting out of the 50 seat business with the closing of CHQ. ENY/PSA/PDT are tied down to AAG and have staffing issues of their own. CPZ is reportedly turning down more AAG flying. TSA has a bunch of ERJ flying coming that will be difficult to staff. Mesa has a bunch of CRJ9 and ERJ175 flying its trying to staff and already has gotten out of the 50 seat business. GoJet could enter the 50 seater market but would have trouble staffing.

Silver?

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 17):

DL could always staff them with their own employees

They can't. No rates are negotiated with the union. That wouldn't happen so quickly.

Beatyair · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:43 pm

I had heard that the Delta style interview was disqualifying many candidates. I was not sure if maybe Delta allowing 9E to make the interview less challenging would help out staffing?

Do you really feel comfortable flying in an aircraft with a pilot that was hire using the lower end of a sliding scale? No!
If there are not enough pilot, then there are not enough good pilots. This maybe the reason that airlines are going back to larger aircraft, flying less frequently, spreading the pilot pool a bit.

INFINITI329 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:26 pm

Quoting Beatyair (Reply 22):
Delta style interview

Can anyone shed some light on what goes on in a Delta style interview? Sounds grueling..

Quoting C767P (Reply 20):
This would be the ideal solution, for DL, UA and AA to bring in the 170/175/CR9/CR7. They control the flying and improve the product. They claim coast is too high to do it. DL has the 175 pay in their contract and AA pilots offered to talk with the company about flying their 175s…

Well DL is running out candidates to bully, something must give. The domino effect. Regional pilots standing up to regional airline management and now the regional airline is standing up to mainline. This is the only way change will happen.

[Edited 2014-12-03 10:29:30]

MSJYOP28Apilot · Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:50 pm

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 18):

Uh, no they're not. Hiring has very little influence on the decision to drop the E-120. If it was, they wouldn't have stopped training classes for it back in Summer.

http://money.cnn.com/news/newsfeeds/articles/prnewswire/LA69253.htm

I interpreted "additional challenges" with FAR 117 as being a code word for saying we are having trouble staffing all of our flying with these new rest rules combined with the recent ATP requirements for new hires. Guess I was wrong.

apodino · Wed Dec 03, 2014 6:57 pm

The story I am hearing isn't that ZW backed out of the deal but Delta did...because during conversations with company management DL became concerned that ZW would have major issues staffing the planes because this was growth flying for ZW. So because of this...DL decided to pull out of the deal. The way this shook out I would find it hard to believe that ZW pulled out of the deal...but supposedly the company letter that went out to employees on this mentioned a coming announcement about an extension to the AA/US flying contract. Stay tuned.

Goldenshield · Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:01 pm

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 24):
I interpreted "additional challenges" with FAR 117 as being a code word for saying we are having trouble staffing all of our flying

Well, yes, it IS a staffing issue, but of a different kind. It has to do with the number of flights that the E-120 flies per day, which is more than a jet would usually fly, and thus further restricts the number of hours a pilot can work.

mayor · Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:09 pm

Quoting MSJYOP28Apilot (Reply 13):

OO is parking E120 flying because in their words they are having trouble staffing them and the jet flying.

OO has been planning to get ride of the E120s for more than 5-7 years.

nws2002 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 7:33 pm

Quoting enilria (Reply 21):
They can't. No rates are negotiated with the union. That wouldn't happen so quickly.

If you went to the employees and said "we want to add flying" I bet they would be able to come up with rates pretty quickly. Whether those would be reasonable to DL, I can't say. The FA group is non-union, and the company could impose a B-schedule for these smaller aircraft. I don't think the dispatchers rates are based on aircraft type, so their union doesn't matter. The pilot union is the only ones that could/would push back, but even then this is a chance to recapture flying that has been outsourced forever. If I was the pilot union I would proactively develop a payscale for these aircraft (or the larger regional jets) and go to the company with how it can save them money by moving it in house.

mayor · Wed Dec 03, 2014 8:24 pm

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 28):

I believe you're correct. I think the training for pilots and F/As would take longer than negotiating the terms.

How about this.......put the regional pilots and F/As on DL's payroll at rates somewhere between what they're getting now and the mainline rates, WITH the chance of moving up to mainline at some point?

enilria · Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:14 pm

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 28):
If you went to the employees and said "we want to add flying" I bet they would be able to come up with rates pretty quickly.

Any time you go to a union and say "hey, we are desperate, can you help us?" you can imagine what kind of deal you get. if if the rates on this were remotely manageable there would be a herculean quid pro quo. They would never touch that possibility.

INFINITI329 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:52 pm

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 28):
If you went to the employees and said "we want to add flying" I bet they would be able to come up with rates pretty quickly. Whether those would be reasonable to DL, I can't say. The FA group is non-union, and the company could impose a B-schedule for these smaller aircraft. I don't think the dispatchers rates are based on aircraft type, so their union doesn't matter. The pilot union is the only ones that could/would push back, but even then this is a chance to recapture flying that has been outsourced forever. If I was the pilot union I would proactively develop a payscale for these aircraft (or the larger regional jets) and go to the company with how it can save them money by moving it in house.

Quoting enilria (Reply 30):
Any time you go to a union and say "hey, we are desperate, can you help us?" you can imagine what kind of deal you get. if if the rates on this were remotely manageable there would be a herculean quid pro quo. They would never touch that possibility.

Very true, but DL will still have to hire new FOs on top of what they have already planned to hire. IM not sure if thats something they want to do. Im pretty junior FOs would jump at the opportunity for the left seat even if on a cr2 so they wouldn't have an issue filling that seat.

northwestEWR · Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:38 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 29):
How about this.......put the regional pilots and F/As on DL's payroll at rates somewhere between what they're getting now and the mainline rates, WITH the chance of moving up to mainline at some point?

Uhhh... isn't that basically what they're already doing at Envoy, Endeavor, etc that are subsidiaries of the mainline airline with lower pay and a flow through agreement?

XFSUgimpLB41X · Wed Dec 03, 2014 11:49 pm

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 32):
Uhhh... isn't that basically what they're already doing at Envoy, Endeavor, etc that are subsidiaries of the mainline airline with lower pay and a flow through agreement?

Endeavor doesn't have a flow through agreement.

DiamondFlyer · Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:16 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 32):
Uhhh... isn't that basically what they're already doing at Envoy, Endeavor, etc that are subsidiaries of the mainline airline with lower pay and a flow through agreement?

No, they don't. Envoy pilots don't have an AA seniority number. A flow thru doesn't mean anything, they can change their mind anytime they want and shut it down, if it benefits them.

-DiamondFlyer

toltommy · Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:22 am

Moving these planes to mainline just isn't going to happen. Not only would you have to negotiate a agreement to add the aircraft to the current contract, you have to add the aircraft to the certificate. The cost and time commitment is substantial. Best case scenario is 6 months, and thats pushing it (from personal experience).

The other reason the planes won't come to mainline is the loss of the ability to whipsaw the regionals against each other. Once those planes go to mainline, they'll NEVER go back to a regional, no matter the cost. You can be sure the scope language alone would prevent Delta from signing any agreement.

northwestEWR · Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:10 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 34):
Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 32):
Uhhh... isn't that basically what they're already doing at Envoy, Endeavor, etc that are subsidiaries of the mainline airline with lower pay and a flow through agreement?

No, they don't. Envoy pilots don't have an AA seniority number. A flow thru doesn't mean anything, they can change their mind anytime they want and shut it down, if it benefits them.

-DiamondFlyer

Really?? Wasn't it at one point part of AA/MQ's deal that AA would first hire pilots from MQ before outside hires...? I think that was them.... CP/NW maybe?

Would "sweetening" the deal with someone like Endeavor help at all? Guaranteed flow through? Something like that?

KaiGywer · Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:37 am

Quoting usflyguy (Reply 16):
Which is exactly why ontime performance, customer complaints, and baggage numbers should all be reflected in the mainline carriers numbers...

Ontime performance can be either or. Sometimes it's the fault of the carrier, sometimes it's the fault of mainline (like when they give their own planes priority during IROPS). So it should be split in my mind. Customer complaints, well,depends on who the complaint is on. The operating airline, DL res, the gate agent (who may be DL, connection or third party). Baggage I think should be DL only, as they (or their contractor) are responsible for the baggage handling regardless of whether the plane is OO, 9E, EV etc..

DiamondFlyer · Thu Dec 04, 2014 3:15 am

Quoting northwestEWR (Reply 36):
Really?? Wasn't it at one point part of AA/MQ's deal that AA would first hire pilots from MQ before outside hires...? I think that was them.... CP/NW maybe?

Sure, they have a flow thru program, but they don't have an AA seniority number until they show up for AA training. Don't confuse this program with AA actually flying something Envoy flies.

-DiamondFlyer

eugdjinn · Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:57 pm

The 10 more aircraft bound for SkyWest will go sooner.

And just like ExpressJet has been doing, they will continue to carry the Eastern flying that Endeavor cannot manage on short-term contracts, plane by plane. Probably in 5 plane at a time lots each month or so. And quietly, as those 200s that are newer and have more years left in them find there way out of Endeavor's hands, they will gradually reappear via Atlanta and Shreveport right back into the DCI fleet of what was ASA... and continue flying the line.

EV and its people have done an absolutely phenomenal job of proving to every single one of their mainline partners that they can handle anything, by topping the stats now month after month. I'd be very surprised if Mama Delta didn't look to them to take and fly all the 200s needed, and quite possibly 900s that 9E fails to manage. (And they've consistently out-performed even SkyWest!!)

Delta didn't do this without a safety net in place and ready to shoulder the load. The only question we should be asking is what its really costing to hand them to ASA/ExpressJet?

Goldenshield · Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:22 am

So, word is that SkyWest is now taking over the FWA MX base. I wonder if this is going to make their SBN MX base redundant since both would be DL focused.

freakyrat · Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:24 am

Quoting Goldenshield Reply40

"So, word is that SkyWest is now taking over the FWA MX base. I wonder if this is going to make their SBN MX base redundant since both would be DL focused. "

Not at all maybe one of the bases would be for a different type of aircraft. Either one could be up gauged from CRJ200's

PGNCS · Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:41 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 31):
Im pretty junior FOs would jump at the opportunity for the left seat even if on a cr2 so they wouldn't have an issue filling that seat.

Based on? People bid largely where they have the best mix of pay and quality of life; certainly most FO's would be unwilling to take a pay cut for the glamor of a CRJ Captain seat.

It's irrelevant anyway: 50 seat RJ flying is only economical in strictly defined areas now and would be even less economical flown by mainline. It's a dying breed. Maybe it's dying even quicker than expected.

mayor · Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:53 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 42):

It's irrelevant anyway: 50 seat RJ flying is only economical in strictly defined areas now and would be even less economical flown by mainline. It's a dying breed. Maybe it's dying even quicker than expected.

So, in the case of our local airport, FSM, that has 3 fifty seaters a day, they could replace that flying with 2 CR7s or 2 CR9s and be almost equal in capacity.........At most airports that are CR200 only, now, they could replace them rather easily IF there were enough pilots around to fly them?

bahadir · Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:55 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 23):
Regional pilots standing up to regional airline management and now the regional airline is standing up to mainline. This is the only way change will happen.

Tell that to PSA and PDT folks.

b727fa · Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:49 pm

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 28):
The FA group is non-union, and the company could impose a B-schedule for these smaller aircraft.

That's not how it works. DL pays what the scale is--regardless of a/c. From the DC-9 to the 747 there has never been a difference. And the best predictor of the future is the past. Other airlines haven't it done it, either (jetBlue, US for their 190's, etc) and while pilots might have CRJ-900 and Ejet rates look at the FA's for those companies (union or not) and see if they have rates in their work rules/CBA's and I'll bet you they don't because there is no reason to have them. We staff 1:50. Our pay isn't determined by a/c size.

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