Eurowings Long Haul Based In Cologne

PHX Flyer · Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:46 pm

3 A330, starting fall 2015,

Destinations to include Florida, southern Africa, and Indian Ocean islands.

More to follow ...

aviationaware · Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:49 pm

310 seats in the A332s which will be branded as Eurowings. Eurowings will also get a new livery in the process:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHA23B7MF5s

KarelXWB · Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:52 pm

Eurowings will also get a new livery:

http://twitter.com/aviator_aero/status/540153049453309956

[Edited 2014-12-03 06:58:28]

kl911 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:53 pm

Quoting PHX Flyer (Thread starter):
3 A330, starting fall 2015,

Destinations to include Florida, southern Africa, and Indian Ocean islands.

More to follow ...

Why LH Jump and Eurowings both for longhaul? Besides Condor which does not belong to LH there are a lot of Longhaul LCC/Leisure airlines in Germany.

Tobias2702 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:56 pm

Will Eurowings use its own EW code again? Currently, all their scheduled CR9 services use the 4U code of its parent Germanwings.

KarelXWB · Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:59 pm

Also from the announcement: the Eurowings long-haul flights will operate at an unit cost 40% below Lufthansa levels.

Fly-K · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:01 pm

Livery is a bit Iberia-like...

Luxair747SP · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:09 pm

Livery looks like a mix of Iberia and Luxair....

PHX Flyer · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:15 pm

Quoting Tobias2702 (Reply 4):
Will Eurowings use its own EW code again? Currently, all their scheduled CR9 services use the 4U code of its parent Germanwings.

I would think so. There was another announcement today saying that the Gernanwings brand will be discontinued in Q3 2015. Then Eurowings wll be the sole LCC operator for Lufthansa, although - at least for the time being - under 3 different operating certificates.

LAXintl · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:19 pm

LH signed tentative agreement with TK for Sun Express to operate/crew these flights.

Thomaas · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:31 pm

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 8):
There was another announcement today saying that the Gernanwings brand will be discontinued in Q3 2015.

Will all the Germany flying excluding FRA and MUC be transferred to Eurowings or dropped altogether ?

KarelXWB · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:32 pm

Quoting kl911 (Reply 3):
Why LH Jump and Eurowings both for longhaul?

Wasn't Jump just a temporary name? Or will there be two LCC's?

LAXintl · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:35 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 11):
Wasn't Jump just a temporary name? Or will there be two LCC's?

Jump is the longhaul ops using denser A340s.

This Wings is separate LCC thing.

kl911 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:41 pm

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 8):
Then Eurowings wll be the sole LCC operator for Lufthansa, although - at least for the time being - under 3 different operating certificates.

But LH Jump is an LCC too right? Or at least more LCC then LH.

KarelXWB · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:46 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 12):
Jump is the longhaul ops using denser A340s.

This Wings is separate LCC thing.

Thanks.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 13):
But LH Jump is an LCC too right? Or at least more LCC then LH.

I understood Jump will target a different market.

[Edited 2014-12-03 07:48:31]

Tobias2702 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:47 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 11):
Wasn't Jump just a temporary name? Or will there be two LCC's?

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 11):
Jump is the longhaul ops using denser A340s.

This Wings is separate LCC thing.

Quoting kl911 (Reply 13):
But LH Jump is an LCC too right? Or at least more LCC then LH.

Judging from these (legitimate) comments, the Lufthansa brand recognition and image is in deep trouble. I'm really not sure this dilution strategy is the right thing to do.

WorldspotterPL · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:51 pm

I think they are doing the right thing - even though the whole germanwings/eurowings/worldwings idea makes a lot of sense to us aviation geeks in terms of destinations, going for only the one brand is the right and necessary step (although personally I wonder why they didn't stick to the already established Germanwings brand). Anyway, one brand in my opinion this is the only way to create a strong new German airline that can compete with airberlin and Condor.

On another note, 40% savings in unit costs is very impressive. Since Lufthansa is a publically owned company, times will get very hard (for the pilots especially) once shareholders see that within the company it is possible to operate at such dramatically lower costs. That's why they strike so stubbornly at the moment - they know it is only the beginning of big big changes.

And just to add to the latest posts: I don't think the LH brands are in deep trouble. Jump is not a brand, it is just an internal name for something passengers do not see. And in terms of brands that passengers will see, from Q3 2015 there will only be the normal LH brand and Eurowings for everything else.

Just my two cents.

[Edited 2014-12-03 07:55:43]

Fly-K · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:53 pm

Jump is not a brand, just a project name, as also stated in this forum several times.

KarelXWB · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:54 pm

Quoting Fly-K (Reply 17):
Jump is not a brand, just a project name, as also stated in this forum several times.

The point remains the same: there will be another long-haul LCC in the nearby future.

TheSonntag · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:54 pm

CGN long haul? Or just the base.

Great news for CGN, thats for sure.

PanHAM · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting WorldspotterPL (Reply 16):
That's why they strike so stubbornly at the moment - they know it is only the beginning of big big changes.

Whereby they cannot legally strike against this new concept. But the pilots must understand that These new Jobs, and a good number of the existing pilot Jobs in LH will exist only when the new concept succeeds.

It is either that way or not at all.

jumpjets · Wed Dec 03, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting Fly-K (Reply 6):
Livery is a bit Iberia-like...

A bit worse, f that were possible, as the tail doesn't look very cohesive to me

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 8):
There was another announcement today saying that the Gernanwings brand will be discontinued in Q3 2015.

Does that mean 4U flights eg LHR-CGN will revert to LH or will they become EW?

HB-IWC · Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:00 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 18):
The point remains the same: there will be another long-haul LCC in the nearby future

It is not a longhaul LCC. The Jump project relates to a number of A340s that will be retrofitted in a 18C/19Y+/261Y configuration, but will operate with the regular LH onboard service and all other elements of the LH brand.

KarelXWB · Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:07 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 18):
The point remains the same: there will be another long-haul LCC in the nearby future.

Quoting HB-IWC (Reply 22):
It is not a longhaul LCC. The Jump project relates to a number of A340s that will be retrofitted in a 18C/19Y+/261Y configuration, but will operate with the regular LH onboard service and all other elements of the LH brand.

Apologies. For some reason, the media are claiming Jump is another low-cost, long-haul service.

WorldspotterPL · Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:07 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
Whereby they cannot legally strike against this new concept. But the pilots must understand that These new Jobs, and a good number of the existing pilot Jobs in LH will exist only when the new concept succeeds.

It is either that way or not at all.

Agreed.

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 21):
Does that mean 4U flights eg LHR-CGN will revert to LH or will they become EW?

Will be EW like everything apart from MUC and FRA (and the DUS long haul, if that stays)

Quoting jumpjets (Reply 21):
A bit worse, f that were possible, as the tail doesn't look very cohesive to me

True. Does anyone know what this "logo" is supposed to mean? Is it a 'W' for wings? You can see the entire logo under the cockpit in smaller.

LAXintl · Wed Dec 03, 2014 4:11 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 23):
Apologies. For some reason, the media are claiming Jump is another low-cost, long-haul service.

Well in essence it is. LH estimates a 22% per seat cost reduction for the operation. They have gotten cabin crew to agree already to operate the service under modified terms, and working on terms for pilots still.
Additionally routes will primarily be secondary/leisure markets were regular LH mainline product cant be supported.

vfw614 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:01 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 18):
The point remains the same: there will be another long-haul LCC in the nearby future.

It is just another onboard product (including crew) that generates cost-savings. But it is fully integrated into the LH long-haul operation.

SCQ83 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:04 pm

What will happen with DUS-EWR and DUS-ORD? Will they continue LH mainline, LH Jump or Eurowings? Those are odd flights now. If I am not mistaken, they will be the only LH flights not involving FRA/MUC.

cougar15 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:12 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 25):
Additionally routes will primarily be secondary/leisure markets were regular LH mainline product cant be supported.

Condor HD+!

Delta777Jet · Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:56 pm

They got 3 operating certificates and call it low cost ? Well, in my opinion they built LH 2.0. They should get a brilliant head on board like O Leary who knows how to do this business. Those LH management guys just know how to piss of their pilots (even the french, yes the french pilots agreed with AF management) instead of communicating them changes in the right way. All these restructurings, different reservation systems and god knows. I suggest new base should be the new Berlin Airport because todays Lufthansa is the same shame site like the airport project.

MAH4546 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting PHX Flyer (Thread starter):
Destinations to include Florida, southern Africa, and Indian Ocean islands.

So Miami, Cape Town and Male?

jetblue1965 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:36 pm

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 30):

So Miami, Cape Town and Male?

Or Seychelles / Durban ...

And JUMP just launched TPA, of all places, so "Florida" here can really mean a lot of things. I can see LH mainline do MIA while Eurowings longhaul go the LCC route and do FLL.

MAH4546 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 31):
I can see LH mainline do MIA while Eurowings longhaul go the LCC route and do FLL.

I would not rule it out, but it will substantially increase the costs of having a split airport operation in one city, and require greater marketing expense to convince people to go to Ft. Lauderdale and/or that it's close to Miami.

[Edited 2014-12-03 14:45:21]

SCQ83 · Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:55 pm

Also AB already flies DUS-MIA, so IMO CGN-MIA would be a better competitor. And many people in Europe don't really know/care about FLL.

egph · Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:13 am

I read here that the Germanwings brand will disappear to be replaced by Eurowings? A friend of mine of Facebook based in germany suggests that this will not be the case and the Germanwings brand will continue on beside the new Eurowings. Anyone have a source for the news that Germanwings will be wound down?

jetblue1965 · Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:23 am

Quoting SCQ83 (Reply 33):
And many people in Europe don't really know/care about FLL.

Norwegian is already helping to change that perception. Together with Condor, FLL has nonstop access to LGW FRA CPH OSL ARN.

MAH4546 · Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:27 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 35):
Norwegian is already helping to change that perception. Together with Condor, FLL has nonstop access to LGW FRA CPH OSL ARN.

Hardly changing anything, and service has already been reduced to just 1x weekly to Gatwick. Scandavians have always been the exception that Europeans avoid Ft. Lauderdale. Before Norwegian even started service, FLL's five largest long-haul markets were, in order, TLV, FRA, CPH, ARN and OSL.

Condor operates during peak travel to Europe, focusing on U.S.-originating traffic.

PHX Flyer · Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:34 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 30):
Quoting PHX Flyer (Thread starter):
Destinations to include Florida, southern Africa, and Indian Ocean islands.

So Miami, Cape Town and Male?

They have not released those details yet.

I don't think, Lufthansa is eager to cannibalize the mainline markets, and therefore I would not expect Miami. I think FLL and RSW would be most plausible. I hope it's not Sanford.

Male is certainly possible. In his initial presentation on July 10 Spohr mentioned the Seychelles and Bangkok by name. I would also include Mombasa in the list of candidates. In southern Africa, Cape Town seems almost certain, possibly Windhoek too, which has always been a very difficult market.

My guess is that most destinations will be served only once or twice daily. If each of the three frames makes 4-5 roundtrips per week, we may see as many as 7-8 destinations initially, possibly more.

They will have to apply for a foreign air carrier permit with the DOT, so we should be able to see the planned US destinations as soon as the docket is open.

PHX Flyer · Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:59 am

Quoting EGPH (Reply 34):
Anyone have a source for the news that Germanwings will be wound down?

Yes, that was part of the official press release. You can find it on http://www.lufthansagroup.com.

Quote:

Unter dem Markennamen „Eurowings“ und unter einem gemeinsamen Dach sollen von Ende kommenden Jahres an die Fluggesellschaften Eurowings und Germanwings, sowie weitere Flugbetriebe in Europa mit kostengünstigen Kurz- und Langstreckenangeboten neue Kunden gewinnen und dabei Qualität zu günstigen Preisen bieten.

The above quote is from the German version, obviously. There is also an English version on the website, but it is not as specific - I love the clarity of the German language ...

Anyway, the above blurp states that Eurowings and Germanwings will both operate under the Eurowings brand. So, for now at least Germanwings will continue to exist within the corporate structure, but the brand will disappear.

Francoflier · Thu Dec 04, 2014 4:30 am

Where are the A330s coming from?

aviationaware · Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:35 am

Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 30):
So Miami, Cape Town and Male?

I find Miami very unlikely given LH just restarted MUC-MIA and certainly won't want to cannibalize on that. I expect to see MCO. FLL is also an option, but MCO is somewhat the likeliest choice for Florida.
Cape Town, meanwhile, is very likely. And Male - possible, but I finde the market too overrun. Maybe Mahé is a more probable choice.

777way · Thu Dec 04, 2014 5:47 am

I dont see Iberia in the livery, but am getting the British flag in the design.

douglasyxz · Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:26 am

The official press release gives answer to most of the questions. http://www.lufthansagroup.com/en/pre...2014/december/03/article/3366.html

4U will for the time being kept alive, yet the brand name will be Eurowings. In my opinion just a matter of time until the entire 4U operation will be transferred into Eurowings. Similar happend to Austrian operations transferred into Tyrolean.

KarelXWB · Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:45 am

Quoting francoflier (Reply 39):
Where are the A330s coming from?

Don't know yet, but Airbus has a few available http://www.airbus.com/company/market/asset/aircraft-available/

PHX Flyer · Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:45 am

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 37):
My guess is that most destinations will be served only once or twice daily.

I have to correct myself here: it's once or twice weekly, of course.

r2rho · Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:08 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
LH signed tentative agreement with TK for Sun Express to operate/crew these flights.

Correct. The New Eurowings seems just a brand name under which there will be several operations. The long-haul will be operated by SunExpress crews. The short-haul, initially by a mix of old Eurowings and current Germanwings crews, but I expect it to be all-Eurowings in the mid-term as apparently they are cheaper. Confusing? You bet.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 10):

Will all the Germany flying excluding FRA and MUC be transferred to Eurowings or dropped altogether ?

All current 4U flying will go to Eurowings. Except the CR9's, which are disappearing altogether (I wonder what will happen to those routes...). So the New Germanwings, which was launched in 2013, will have lived a total of barely over two years. Aircraft paint shops however will be sending huge thank you gift baskets to LH this Christmas.

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 37):
My guess is that most destinations will be served only once or twice daily.

I think you meant once or twice weekly, in which case I agree. This is not a product for high frequency business destinations but more for package holidays and price-sensitive travelers, similar to what AB and Condor have.

r2rho · Thu Dec 04, 2014 12:11 pm

By the way, according to this German article, the possibility of 24h ops were a deciding factor in choosing CGN. I hope there aren't any German politicians out there reading this thread, otherwise a night curfew will be announced before this project can take off.

http://www.airliners.de/eurowings-langstrecke-billig-lufthansa/34306

[Edited 2014-12-04 04:36:51]

aviationaware · Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:04 pm

Quoting r2rho (Reply 45):
Aircraft paint shops however will be sending huge thank you gift baskets to LH this Christmas.

Probably. I expect the Germanwings planes to only receive new titles, though, with the rest remaining the same for the time being. They aren't the youngest after all.

galleypower · Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:42 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 23):
Apologies. For some reason, the media are claiming Jump is another low-cost, long-haul service.

Actually, its not the media. Hard to find anything about Jump in the media unless you really look for it. Even on aviation sites. It seems that quite some a. netters simply dont get it and start the same questions again with every LH topic that comes up. Even though it has been explained for the umptheenth time. RTFM

PHX Flyer · Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:35 am

Quoting aviationaware (Reply 40):
I find Miami very unlikely given LH just restarted MUC-MIA and certainly won't want to cannibalize on that

I used the same argument also in #37, but I would also caution that the execution of a plan may look vastly different than an initial draft. As we have all read, officially Eurowings is meant to be a tool for thinner, lower yielding routes that cannot be viably served by the mainline, most of them presumably tourist destinations.

However, I would argue that Lufthansa is trying to get a better handle on one of the largest O&D markets - Cologne has a catchment area of 17 million, and currently Lufthansa is only one of many players in the area. Cannibalizing the FRA operation is one aspect in route selection, but the other one is gaining market share in a very competitive market, and that may entail competing with Air Berlin on routes like NYC, LAX and possibly MIA one day.

But initially FLL would probably make more sense. It avoids fare wars with AB during the run-up phase, and who knows, Lufthansa may also choose to offer flight connections at FLL with their marketing partner, JetBlue ...

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