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Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:37 am

Hello everybody,

many have complained that threads about flight diversions are being moved to the travel, polls and Prefs forum. We explained to them that we do not want the civ av forum to be full of minor diversions thread and keep more important threads there.
But more and more people didn't agree with that, so we will give it a try and allow diversion threads in the civ av forum, effective immediately.

Please, if you start new topics, have a look on the 2nd page if your topic can be found there as threads might quickly be on the 2nd page when several diversions happen.

Thanks.

On behalf of the moderating team
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kanban
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:53 pm

I would ask posters of diversion threads to put the actual diversion date in the title instead of "today" or "breaking"..

Also suggest that these threads have only a 5 day life before archiving.
 
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ssteve
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:35 pm

I'd say this policy had caused some threads that were more about discussing the more generally interesting event that caused the diversion being moved:
UA803 IAD-NRT Return To IAD Due To Dogs? (by SSTeve Jun 1 2014 in Aviation Polls)

OTOH, if the thread is just "hey spotters! lookee here..." yeah, well, that might be noise.
 
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ua900
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:36 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 1):
I would ask posters of diversion threads to put the actual diversion date in the title instead of "today" or "breaking"..

Also suggest that these threads have only a 5 day life before archiving.

   Agree with your previous stance that diversion threads shouldn't be part of the main forum. Is there a way to do a dedicated sub-forum for those threads?
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jetblueguy22
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:46 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 1):
I would ask posters of diversion threads to put the actual diversion date in the title instead of "today" or "breaking"..

That is a rule we currently have in place. When a mod sees today we always change it to 12/4 etc. Breaking we do try and avoid. But for big news such as a crash the threads move so quickly that we end up leaving it because the posts in the thread take priority.

Quoting kanban (Reply 1):
Also suggest that these threads have only a 5 day life before archiving.

We have no control over when threads get archived unless we manually do it. There would be no way for us to select archive after 5 days and it is done. Diversion threads are usually not frequently posted in, so they will most likely fade away just as any other thread that has reached its discussion limit.
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D L X
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:06 pm

Quoting moderators (Thread starter):

Good move.

I would then ask the community of posters to simply consider the question: is your post about a simple diversion really that important? Diversions happen every day for a wild variety of reasons that are all within normal operating procedure. If there's no evidence that it's anything other than a normal diversion, perhaps a.net is not the best place to start a thread.

It would be different if the plane were on fire, or had diverted to an interesting place (like the Jetblue fiery diversion or the UA 777 landing on the Midway islands.) But in my opinion, just because a plane squawked 7700 on flightradar24 is not a good enough reason to have a thread about it.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:10 pm

Agreed with concept, but it should only be diversions related to a major mechanical or other non-routine event.

I mean, I've been on 3 diversion flights in my life and if we had a thread for each time it happened to anyone on the forum, or to their family, or to an airport they just happened to be at, etc. we would have far too many.

When an engine explodes or gear collapses or there's a fire onboard, that's newsworthy.

Edit: thinking back, it's at least 5 flights. Probably more...
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
spacecadet
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 9:15 pm

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 6):
Agreed with concept, but it should only be diversions related to a major mechanical or other non-routine event.

Threads about routine diversions should really just be closed/deleted rather than moved, unless there's a specific question being asked that grew out of the diversion (but then the topic should probably be titled with the question, rather than with the diversion). I can't really see the rationale for moving a diversion thread to Travel Polls & Prefs. It's either important enough to be here or it isn't; if it isn't, it just shouldn't really be on the forum at all.
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kanban
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:26 pm

Quoting spacecadet (Reply 7):

I guess there are really several types of diversion posts. 1) "I'm at the airport to pick up someone and where's the plane?"
2) "An A380 just landed in Mosquito Falls, why?" 3) "I see Air Yadda flying in circles over an non destination airport, why?" This goes with flight tracking computer errors. 4) Chicago is closed due to A) the President is arriving/ leaving, B) snow or tornado, C) the control tower is not responding, and D) there is a chigger infestation. and 5) Someone's pet pig defecated in the aisle, a passenger committed some disturbance or the IFE or galley is smoking.

I'm not really sure all are worthy of threads..

I forgot 6) my ticket says B737 and the plane that showed up is a A320.. what happened?

[Edited 2014-12-04 14:33:27]
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:30 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 8):
I'm not really sure all are worthy of threads..

  

The daily cadre of such posting is nothing but spam threads imo.

To me such flight specific posting seemed the much more appropriate spot in Travel then having them here.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
JDFLYVC10
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:06 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 8):
there is a chigger infestation.

Thanks for making me look up what a "CHIGGER" is!
A Day Without Sunshine Is Like....NIGHT!
 
wilco737
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:51 pm

Thanks for the feedback guys.

But as you can see: you cannot please them all.

We received so many complaints that single flight diversion threads were moved to the travel section, so we decided to leave them here, and again we receive complaints...   

We cannot change the forum software, or the description above the forums, so we have to find a compromise.

We tried mega threads which ended up in chaos, so we allowed separate thread and it crowded the forum...

I give up... No clue what else to do.

wilco737
  
 
aerokiwi
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:54 pm

Is this rule the reason the recent story on the AC Jazz crash landing where the propeller penetrated the fuselage narrowly missing passengers, was left in the travel, polls and preferences thread? Because that seemed like a major event worthy of broader discussion, but left there. Was quite odd.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:56 pm

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 4):
When a mod sees today we always change it to 12/4 etc.

Given the US representation of dates is a minority as far as the rest of the World is concerned, can we not stick to Nth Mmm (e.g. 4th Dec) rather than 12/4 or 04/12?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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mercure1
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 04, 2014 11:57 pm

  

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 11):
I give up... No clue what else to do.

How about simply deleting them as low quality post, not adding anything meaningful to the site or members.

Every day there are countless diversions globally for mundane reasons. Unless there is a truly major incident that is news worthy, they should all be non-events and hardly worth the space they occupy.
mercure f-wtcc
 
tommy767
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:02 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 11):
We received so many complaints that single flight diversion threads were moved to the travel section, so we decided to leave them here, and again we receive complaints...

I started a thread yesterday about a UA BOS flight that diverted but there is still an active thread for UA flights that diverted between EWR & SFO. Are some threads getting moved to other forums and others staying put?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:07 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 11):
We tried mega threads which ended up in chaos, so we allowed separate thread and it crowded the forum...

Yea mega threads are bad. Another prominent traveling forum loves mega threads that span 100 pages of comments dating back several years.
 
wilco737
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:08 am

Quoting aerokiwi (Reply 12):

No, nothing to do with any event or diversion or incident. Just a discussion among the mods how we proceed.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 13):
Given the US representation of dates is a minority as far as the rest of the World is concerned, can we not stick to Nth Mmm (e.g. 4th Dec) rather than 12/4 or 04/12?

Yes, we should have a standard for it. I will bring it up in the mod crew and decide on a standard. Thanks.

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 14):
How about simply deleting them as low quality post, not adding anything meaningful to the site or members.

Well, who decides what is low quality and what not? If someone started a thread about it, he seeks more information, so is not low quality.
Where do we draw the line then? Some people can say: low quality that blah blah air starts a new route...

We hoped that this change was for the good as we received so many complaints, and now we receive complaints again...   

wilco737
  
 
tommy767
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:14 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 17):
No, nothing to do with any event or diversion or incident. Just a discussion among the mods how we proceed.

Could you please address my reply 15? Thanks.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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kanban
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:14 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 11):
I give up... No clue what else to do.

don't give up .. I agree with Reply 14... if the post has limited to nil substance, delete it under existing rules..

now could we call the missing Malaysian B772 a diversion and lock it has existing hearsay?  duck   duck 

[Edited 2014-12-04 16:25:32]
 
wilco737
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:25 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 18):

If it is a diversion we keep them in the civ av forum from now on. If it is something travel related it will be moved over to the travel forum.

Quoting kanban (Reply 19):
don't give up .. I agree with Reply 14... if the post has limited to nil substance, delete it under existing rules..

I guess these threads don't get many replies at all, so they are on the 2nd page within hours or within one day... So not really need to delete them I would say.

wilco737
  
 
smokeybandit
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 12:26 am

I thought this post was about an FAA rule change about how flights get diverted.
 
RDUDDJI
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:04 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 17):
Yes, we should have a standard for it. I will bring it up in the mod crew and decide on a standard. Thanks.


Agreed.

I suggest an ISO standard like YYYYMMDD, or DDMMM (i.e. 20141204, 04DEC). 12/4 is ambiguous.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
S75752
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:07 am

I for one would like to see Diversions and Charters consolidated in to their own megathreads respectively.
 
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kanban
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:47 am

I think the format is a minor issue alpha month/numeric day or numeric day/alpha month.. is easy to decipher without playing games on whose format is favored. However who said we should use a Gregorian calendar?
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 2:55 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 24):

Whatever format it is, don't make it Julian dates.
 
SonomaFlyer
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:05 am

Here is an EARTH SHATTERING suggestion, don't click on a thread about a diversion or diversions? Problem solved!
 
birdbrainz
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:40 am

Keeping it here might prove a welcome diversion from the usual A vs B wars, although I'm sure that you encountered headwinds in attempting to reach a quick decision.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
tommy767
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:45 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 20):

Mine was a diversion so definitely civ av related. Can you move it back?
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
UALFAson
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:26 am

I think part of the issue has to do with disagreements/confusion over what topics are appropriate for the Civil Aviation forum versus the Travel, Pols, and Prefs forum.

New route announcements and enirla's weekly OAG thread (that I enjoy very much, by the way) seem like the definition of "Travel" topics to me yet are allowed to stay in Civil Aviation, but a thread I started about the significant changes to elite qualification in UA's Mileage Plus program eventually got moved to Travel, Polls, & Prefs after getting like 50 comments in the Civ Av forum.

While I can see where frequent diversion threads can get annoying, given how overwhelmingly the web traffic flows to the Civ Av forum, I side with SonomaFlyer's suggestion to err on the side of caution and leave them where are and encourage members to not bother clicking on any thread in which they are not interested.

But thank you, Mods, for trying to be receptive to members' concerns!!
"We hope you've enjoyed flying with us as much as we've enjoyed taking you for a ride."
 
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airportugal310
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:58 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 28):

Why do you care SO much about this?
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
wilco737
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:16 am

Quoting smokeybandit (Reply 21):

Haha, sorry, no. NOthing to do with the FAA here  
Quoting RDUDDJI (Reply 22):
12/4 is ambiguous

Indeed. So I personally like 05th Dec the best. But as long as it is clear which date it is, I don't mind using another format.

Quoting joffie (Reply 30):
seriously, who cares??

Well, many do care. You won't imagine how many replies we got after moving a diversion thread to the travel section. And not all of them were friendly and nice  
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 28):

Mark it via the Suggest deletion function and we will look into it.

wilco737
  
 
Rdh3e
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:13 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 11):
I give up... No clue what else to do.

What do you mean you guys have no ability to edit the description above the forum? Is it that you don't have permission? The software really isn't that complicated.

I'd say a separate forum for Diversions would be nice, then I wouldn't have to see them.

Or a forum solely for airline business, ie Fleet discussions, schedule changes, financial developments etc. That is what most of us come here for, not the rest of this nonsense.

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 18):
Could you please address my reply 15? Thanks.
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 28):
Mine was a diversion so definitely civ av related. Can you move it back?

Who cares? The discussion that is still there is more about 737 range/payload than about diversions and encompassed tens of diversions, not one.
 
wilco737
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 3:53 pm

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 33):
What do you mean you guys have no ability to edit the description above the forum? Is it that you don't have permission? The software really isn't that complicated.

We only moderate the forum, we cannot edit or add or remove anything or change layout. We can only ask the developers to do such changes, but usually that takes forever...

wilco737
  
 
D L X
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 4:37 pm

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 31):

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 28):

Why do you care SO much about this?

  

I don't mean to offend, but that thread is a textbook low value thread in my opinion. These threads that ask "why did XXX divert?" are not much different than asking "why did XXX use runway 1C today?" It's incredibly routine, and we could easily fill up the board with such tripe.

If we don't want all threads with a diversion in them going to Travel Polls, I think this is the time for the community to police itself and avoid these low value posts.
 
karadion
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:10 pm

I'm in the club of "No diversion threads at all" unless it's a extremely significant incident that got the attention of government agencies.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 5:14 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 35):
It's incredibly routine, and we could easily fill up the board with such tripe.

Agree 50%. That another United flight from BOS to SFO diverted is incredibly dull reading, discussion about why so many diversions are occurring could be an interesting topic. It could be because of a weather anomaly, equipment downgauging, many reasons. On another forum, a simple question about why a JFK-SFO flight flew straight north almost to Montreal one night before heading west (followed by others later that night), became an interesting discussion to read about how flight plans are developed.

But you're right overall, the everyday routine thread-per-diversion just clutters the board, and is as bad as the reposts from places like airlineroute.net which continue to get posted without discussion points with impunity.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 6:49 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 38):
A similar thread is taking place in civil aviation AFTER I made the one about the BOS-SFO flight.

Are you talking about this one?

UA Flts EWR-SFO Making Fuel Stops In DEN 03/04Dec (by stealth777 Dec 3 2014 in Civil Aviation)

The one which became nothing other than another UA vs. DL pissing match? You guys dig your own graves. Keep to the topic of diversions instead of which airline has better onboard amenities (a Travel/Polls/Prefs topic!), and you might get deeper support for diversion threads in CivAv.
International Homo of Mystery
 
wilco737
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 7:16 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 38):
The two thread could have been merged together since they are essentially about the same topic

We cannot merge threads. We can only delete one and leave the other open, but a merger is not possible.


And guys, please stick to the topic! This is about the new rule here and don't let it get out of control again...

wilco737
  
 
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American 767
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 9:42 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 38):
We cannot merge threads.

No, we cannot. But what we can do is archive one thread, and post its link as a reply in the other thread, and continue posting on the other thread. So that people can read everything that has been going on in both threads.

Ben Soriano
Ben Soriano
 
D L X
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:25 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 37):
You guys dig your own graves. Keep to the topic of diversions instead of which airline has better onboard amenities (a Travel/Polls/Prefs topic!), and you might get deeper support for diversion threads in CivAv.

I think that's the issue: nearly no one actually wants to talk about routine diversions.
 
wilco737
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:12 pm

Quoting American 767 (Reply 39):
No, we cannot.
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 38):
We cannot merge threads.

Isn't that the same I said as well? We cannot merge threads...

wilco737
  
 
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kanban
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Sat Dec 06, 2014 12:48 am

Quoting American 767 (Reply 39):
But what we can do is archive one thread, and post its link as a reply in the other thread, and continue posting on the other thread. So that people can read everything that has been going on in both threads.

that would be a good work around.. however I have never seen it.. usually the thread with the least posts just disappears...
 
PGNCS
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Sat Dec 06, 2014 1:19 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 17):
Quoting mercure1 (Reply 14):
How about simply deleting them as low quality post, not adding anything meaningful to the site or members.

Well, who decides what is low quality and what not? If someone started a thread about it, he seeks more information, so is not low quality.
Where do we draw the line then? Some people can say: low quality that blah blah air starts a new route...

Wilco, I respectfully agree with mercure1 here that these threads need to be simply deleted as a low quality post. I hear you say "Well, who decides what is low quality and what not?" and that's a fair question, but respectfully YOU DO. The moderators exist in part to regulate and enforce standards on these forums. You make judgment calls every day about deleting posts and threads that you deem low quality (or have other issues with) so it's time to accept that that's part of the responsibility that goes with the gig. I'm thnakful there are people who want to be moderators and who have the time and dedication to devote to that. I am not suggesting that you make it your number one goal to purge the site of diversion threads, but I am suggesting that when you see ultra-specific diversion threads that serve no broad interest that you delete them due to low quality, just like moderators do all the time. The time you save will largely be ours, and the majority of us will be grateful.

Now if you could just develop software that recognizes any post about the 764 as potentially inflammatory...  
 
D L X
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:47 pm

One last question on this is why Aviation Polls and Prefs? It seems to me that a better landing spot for questions about diversions is the Tech Ops forum.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 12, 2014 2:35 am

My answer is to grade them in 3 categories with suitable posting rules/policies:

Start and stay on main Civ-Av category:
Major in-flight mechanical, electrical, fuel, pressurization or structural problem,, bomb/terror threat, bad/illegal/dangerous behaviors of pax, illness of 1 or more, any problems that requires the plane be on the ground ASAP; Requires the plane to be met by fire trucks, off-loaded and on the ground enough to require pax to stay more than 8 hours or until a relief a/c arrives or transferred to other flights It can also include diversions to airports that don't offer service by that airline, in an unusual location like Yellowknife, NWT, Canada or a military airport.

Start on main Civ-av but die out quickly or transferred to TP&P forum:
Not sure of diversion at first, but a suspected or problem that is resolved in a short time and landing at regular commercial airport. Also where crew times out and a new crew has to be brought in and/or rest for min time before resuming flight.

Start on TP&P: minor mechanical/electrical or other issue where if diverted, fixed or problem dealt with quickly, the a/c quickly goes back to route to intended destination, crew not timed out.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Rule Change About Diversions

Fri Dec 12, 2014 3:28 am

Quoting RDH3E (Reply 32):
I'd say a separate forum for Diversions would be nice, then I wouldn't have to see them.

You can easily skip any threads you're not interested in. I personally find diversions interesting and they often involve things that aren't very routine.

I agree, a very routine diversion due to weather isn't worth a thread, but there are often unusual aspects that can generate discussion. The problem with a separate thread is that many people only look at the Civil Aviation thread. I've seen many previous diversion threads posted in Civil Aviation that generate quite a few replies before they're moved. As soon as they were moved to Travel/Polls/Preferences, they died with virtually no further replies, simply because most threads in that forum generate much less interest and most people probably never open that thread.

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