Air Canada has announced that they will be resuming non-stop service from Toronto to Delhi. The start date is November 1st, 2015 using a 787-9 aircraft. It will be the first dedicated route for the Air Canada 787-9. It looks like the route will be operating 4x weekly to start.

http://aircanada.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=43&item=835

Very happy to finally see this route come back!! Hopefully they will have a success on their hands this time around especially with Air India being in the Star Alliance.

I'm wondering how this will affect AC's relationship with JET Airways?

(edited for spelling)

[Edited 2014-12-04 04:32:54]

Quoting KLSMB (Thread starter): It will be the first dedicated route for the Air Canada 787-9.

According to the press release 3x weekly will be with the -9 and 1x weekly with the -8

Good job AC. At least one North American carrier trying. With proposed visa free transit @YYC this should be a success.

Ah ha ! Glad to see them making excellent use of 787 against the ME3 invasion. 6 different nonstop services between North America and India, and all star alliance (3 AI, 2 UA, 1 AC)

Finally!

Someone stepping up!

Hopefully Air Canada can make this succesful!

I wonder why they didn't put the Y-heavy 77W instead of the 787, it would have made more sense given the low-yield of the route.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 5):

Do they have any spare high-density 77Ws left? It'd make sense with a more fuel-efficient bird, wouldn't it?

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 5):

I don't know their 789 config but on the 788 it only has 20 J, so that's quite high density config relatively (UA has ~36 J on their 788 in comparison)

a good strategic move to start flights from the on set of the IATA W15 season which is peak time for travel between Canada-India. The schedule is also excellent allowing connections to all over Canada + USA via YYZ easily in both directions.

The loads for this flight should be high but the yields will be the most interesting thing to follow. Its good that Air India is not operating this route currently as then there would be a major fare war between AI-9W-AC along with others. I hope in time to see Air India code sharing with AC on this flight to enable more feeding opportunities for domestic India + other South Asian destinations.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 5): I wonder why they didn't put the Y-heavy 77W instead of the 787, it would have made more sense given the low-yield of the route.

I think it might depend on the cargo. Also, its not like their 787s lack density.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 7): I don't know their 789 config but on the 788 it only has 20 J, so that's quite high density config relatively (UA has ~36 J on their 788 in comparison)

Remember that AC has a true premium economy product on the 788. as well as a significantly more space efficient, yet also more comfortable, J product. But yes, AC puts more seats on the airplane than United does.

I was hoping for better timings - with the flight arriving DEL at 21:15, there's very few domestic connections that can be made at the India end - ideally AI should code share on this flight and offer the through domestic connections via their domestic network ex-DEL.

Quote: Flights are timed for convenient connections both within Air Canada's North American network and in India on Air India or other interline partners to such cities as Mumbai, Chennai, Hyderabad, and to other destinations throughout Southeast Asia.

Interesting to see AC considering routing pax to Southeast Asia (say BKK/ SIN) via DEL/ AI.

Good luck to AC on this route!

[Edited 2014-12-04 05:45:32]

Quoting Someone83 (Reply 1): and 1x weekly with the -8

If so, this will become the longest 788 route?

Quoting S75752 (Reply 11): If so, this will become the longest 788 route?

Should be. It beats SFO-CTU by 376mi (if you assume UA deploying the 788 on LAX-MEL in the early days as just a sub)

Quoting Nimish (Reply 10): Interesting to see AC considering routing pax to Southeast Asia (say BKK/ SIN) via DEL/ AI.

Does DEL have visa-free transit? Otherwise this would not be so convenient for Canadians (who need visas for India as far as I know) to connect to other parts south-east Asia.

YYZ-DEL on AC only has a chance if access to the Canadian market by Emirates, Qatar and Etihad is restricted.

Quoting Boeing744 (Reply 13): Does DEL have visa-free transit? Otherwise this would not be so convenient for Canadians (who need visas for India as far as I know) to connect to other parts south-east Asia.

From Timatic:

Quote: National Canada (CA) /Embarkation Canada (CA) Transit India (IN) /Destination Singapore (SG) India (IN) Visa required, except for Holders of Person of Indian Origin (PIO) Card, or: TWOV (Transit Without Visa): Visa required, except for Holders of confirmed onward tickets for a max. transit time of 24 hours. - Hotel facilities are available in Terminal 3 at Delhi (DEL), provided holding boarding card for connecting flight. Additional Information: - Holders of visas that specifically state the city/airport of entry must enter India at the specified city/airport.

Bottom line - no visa required to transit Delhi

I wonder if AC is leveraging any agreements with AI now that the latter has become part of Star Alliance. If so, that will help this route tremendously.

The route was very profitable when it was done non-stop previously. The J yield was very high. That went south of course when westbound legs hit restrictions and had to fly thru Stockholm. They could no longer charge the higher J fare as people started to get twitchy about a non stop fare that quite frankly, wasn't.

If the 789 has the legs and the lift (granted times may have changed), the fact they could sell J as a true non stop, AND, if it could haul any sizeable amount of freight out it indeed could be profitable.

As for the 777, they looked at this two years ago. In fact the redispatching program FltOps underwent was to help not only SYD but this route as well. Why they didn't go ahead I don't know but it could have been economics, airframes, approval who knows.

Let's just hope the things that make Delhi a royal pain in the ass to operate in and out of, yes, corruption, can settle down and this route get served consistently for the long term.

Is this likely to go daily as soon as sufficient frames become available? If so this will give AC an edge on EK and EY ex YYZ. Business travelers will likely appreciate the flexibility of dailies.

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 5): I wonder why they didn't put the Y-heavy 77W instead of the 787, it would have made more sense given the low-yield of the route.

Everyone on this site seems to bang on about low yields to India. For a long time I just accepted that as gospel but now I'm not so sure. Can you (or anyone else) point me at some evidence of these low yields? I would be curious to see some figures.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 14): YYZ-DEL on AC only has a chance if access to the Canadian market by Emirates, Qatar and Etihad is restricted.

The stance of the Canadian government hasn't changed in a long time and is not likely to change any time soon. Net-net YYZ-DEL is viable for AC.

YOWza

Quoting yowza (Reply 18): Is this likely to go daily as soon as sufficient frames become available? If so this will give AC an edge on EK and EY ex YYZ. Business travelers will likely appreciate the flexibility of dailies.

They can do something like 4x weekly 789 plus 3x 788 during the slower days of the week. That way they can offer daily service while not worrying about filling cheap consolidator seats in the back during Tuesdays.

787 was supposed to be for long secondary routes yet AC only brings it to what could only be for main routes. But once they went 9 abreast, it could no longer be used for long routes but this is AC and the logic is not there, only short term profit. Add this to their absolutely non sensical switch to 737 and the Rouge which is LCC in everything but price. I think this and GIG are the only routes that they added so far and I think they flew them all before. If anything they should have put 787 for Rouge if anywhere with its cramped seating. It makes no sense to put this plane on a big long route like Brazil and India especially DEL which will be surely 13-14 hours of seating hell. No wonder AC is so worried about competition, they are vulturing and torturing people and getting away with it. Maybe QR will also bring their A380 then since I doubt EY will or Euro 3.

Quoting Vladex (Reply 20): It makes no sense to put this plane on a big long route like Brazil and India especially DEL which will be surely 13-14 hours of seating hell.

TAM is 10-abreast on 77W (which is narrower than 9-abreast on 787) and they don't even serve YYZ nonstop.

EK A380 seems to be a comfy ride, but EY is 10-abreast Y on their 77W to YYZ, which is even worse of an experience to go to India. And QR lacks all-aisle access in J, which AC does offer here.

Quoting Vladex (Reply 20): Maybe QR will also bring their A380 then since I doubt EY will or Euro 3.

QR can bring it because they want to maximize seat count for their 3x weekly service, but they'll have to contend to the fact that F would be quite empty to YUL.

Quoting Vladex (Reply 20): 787 was supposed to be for long secondary routes yet AC only brings it to what could only be for main routes.

Where was that ever written? The plane is perfect for the Canadian market. If the 777 was not viable, then I'd say DEL in ACs eyes, could be what you suggest. A secondary route.

Quoting Vladex (Reply 20): It makes no sense to put this plane on a big long route like Brazil

The 767 has been used on these routes. And when has Brasil been consider a "big long route"??? Nonsense.

Id say what AC is doing seems to be working. They are the most profitable they have ever been, and with record load factors Id say people seem to be okay with being as you say, tortured.

If the 777 on DEL didnt work Id say it was a question of airframes or profitability, or a combination of both. You seem to be making quite a few assumptions concerning the deployment of the 787, where it was supposed to go, and how it was to be utilized.

Quoting sixtyseven (Reply 17): That went south of course when westbound legs hit restrictions and had to fly thru Stockholm.

The route went through Zurich, not Stockholm. AC also down-gauged the a/c from an Airbus A340-500 to a 767.

Congrats to DEL and AC! Was Air Canada also evaluating the possibility of service to BOM or is that off the table?

Quoting irishayes (Reply 23): Quoting sixtyseven (Reply 17): That went south of course when westbound legs hit restrictions and had to fly thru Stockholm. The route went through Zurich, not Stockholm. AC also down-gauged the a/c from an Airbus A340-500 to a 767. next flights: jfk-icn, icn-hkg-bkk-cdg, cdg-phl-msp

I think Stockholm was a fuel stop at some point when the A343 was used on the route.

Quoting behramjee (Reply 8): The schedule is also excellent allowing connections to all over Canada + USA via YYZ easily in both directions.

Great option for another one stop connection to India for US travelers. YYZ is in a good geographic location for a flight like this and has a geographic catchment area that can cover pretty much the entire continental U.S.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 25): I think Stockholm was a fuel stop at some point when the A343 was used on the route.

Ahh -- yes, I did some research --- this was due to the Russian ban on overflight authorities a few weeks after YYZDEL started in October 2003 --- which was political/controversial as it required AC to carry extra fuel on the outbound flight (offloading PAX) and making a technical stop in ARN on the return.

Russia Lifts Restriction On Air Canada DEL Flights (by Gamps Dec 3 2003 in Civil Aviation)

Quoting irishayes (Reply 23): 767.

....and they flew it half empty.

Is Canadian transit visa still required or gone?

Good to see AC back in DEL. Hopefully they will go daily in the spring (2016).

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 2): Good job AC. At least one North American carrier trying. With proposed visa free transit @YYC this should be a success.

Huh? UA offers North America-India service from EWR to DEL and BOM.

Great news. With a flight time of 14 hours to DEL, it easily shaves off about 6 -7 hours to DEL via DXB / AUH. If AI provides good domestic connections, this flight should definitely do well. I was hoping for a non-stop tp BOM. Maybe someday ...

AC will open reservations this Tuesday coming up (December 9th)

Schedule:
AC050 YYZ2055 – 2115+1DEL 788 1
AC050 YYZ2055 – 2115+1DEL 789 357

AC051 DEL0045 – 0500YYZ 788 3
AC051 DEL0045 – 0500YYZ 789 257

http://airlineroute.net/2014/12/04/ac-yyzdel-w15/

Looks like they'll soon be hiring FAs that speak the native language, but unfortunately only if they do KHI would I be able to give it a shot  . One can dream, can they not!! lol

Congrats to AC for heading back to that part of the world. Maybe someday DXB, KHI, CMB, DAC. Who knows?

Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 34): but unfortunately only if they do KHI would I be able to give it a shot

Which language is that?

Quoting golfradio (Reply 32): With a flight time of 14 hours to DEL, it easily shaves off about 6 -7 hours to DEL via DXB / AUH. If AI provides good domestic connections, this flight should definitely do well

The flight arrives in DEL too late to offer any decent connections on AI.
The return leg will get a fair amount of connecting passengers at DEL

I am guessing something like 290 seats on the AC 789 if they scale up from the 251 seat 788. Does any one have precise detail ?

Quoting iloveboeing (Reply 31): Huh? UA offers North America-India service from EWR to DEL and BOM.

As a pundit here put it "UA Doesn't see eye to eye with a low grade carrier like AI" and it cannot code share with any Indian carrier. So scope for UA to grow any further is minimal. That attitude rolls red carpet to ME3.

Benefits
AC enjoys lower operational costs than AI on same route. At DEL, AI has to pay lot more for ATF and MX. Long story.
AC already signed some code shares with AI. I am sure it will be expanded further. May be even a JV.
AC didn't code share with AI at FRA. May be LH didn't agree. This route goes around that issue.
Transport Canada hasn't downgraded India so far, advantage for AC.
AC's high density Y on B787 helps compete with ME3.
B787 has a better chance of succeeding than earlier attempts with B77W/A340.

Risk
Russia can throw a wrench. AC has to look at plan B. AI will have no restrictions over Russian airspace, so plan B is already in place.

Politics
As I posted earlier, AC slowly skipping *A elite club led by LH and UA. It is aligning with SQ, AI and TK club. Rather than looking down on fellow alliance members, AC is approaching with open mind. Just my 2 cents.

Quoting 777way (Reply 29): Is Canadian transit visa still required or gone?

The Canadian transit visa is still required for Indian pax - which will be a bummer as AC cannot market the flight for DEL-YYZ-America routes.

Will they be offering two checked luggages for free on flights to India ?

I know BA does that on connecting flights from US/Canada/Bermuda to India. Is that a requirement by India? I know Brazil has something similar.

[Edited 2014-12-05 05:08:28]

Quoting Sixtyseven (Reply 22):

First off, AC is profitable short term at the expense of the future and without doubt at the expense of canadian people and anyone unfortunate enough to go with them. They may have records now but there is also record amounts going flying from the US airports.
Record profit means that they are screwing someone and that someone is passengers and maybe some of their employees. They can do it since they are still perceived as a flag carrier.

Second of all the notion that 787 is perfect for Canadian space is laughable to put it lightly. 787 right now is doing all the
routes that A330 and 767 do but at a greater discomfort. So it's not opening new routes abroad nor at home, it's only flying fromone hub(YYZ) and soon enough from 3 other mini hubs(YVR,YYC,YUL) just like before. It's also caping growth at these airports which have notoriously high fees.

This is a typical review of the new AC 787
-------------------------------------------------------------
Before I review the seat and leg space please make note that I have small build, 5'5" (165 cm) and 132 pounds (60kg).
Leg room was ok as long as you don't have carry on luggage on the floor. The seat reclined to a relative comfortable position (as far as an economy seat may be comfortable) although I didn't note a major improvement over other/older Air Canada planes, including the 767-3 which was replaced by this plane on this route.

The big problem with the seating in economy is the 3X3X3 configuration. The seats are NARROW. I was lucky that nobody was sitting in the middle seat next to my window seat. The seat felt cramped without a person sitting next to me. It would've been almost unbearable to fly for 10 hours with someone next to me. Remember,I'm smaller than the average person and couldn't imagine how an average or large person could last in an economy seat for such a long flight. Air Canada definitely dropped the ball with this seat configuration on an international flight. It might work for a short haul flight but not on a 10 hour flight. Simply outrageous design decision.

Another inexplicable design decision was to mount controls on the arm rest, exactly where you'd put your arm. There were several incidents witnessed during the flight where passengers accidentally pressed the flight attendant button. The flight attendants reaction was as if it was a common occurrence. I myself accidentally pressed the seat lighting button a few times and changed the volume on my flight entertainment program. This is a very annoying design flaw, especially if a stranger sitting next to you will push the buttons on your flight entertainment controls.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 38): As I posted earlier, AC slowly skipping *A elite club led by LH and UA. It is aligning with SQ, AI and TK club. Rather than looking down on fellow alliance members, AC is approaching with open mind. Just my 2 cents.

Running a single nonstop to DEL is hardly a denouncement of the JV with LH. It's merely copying what UA is doing :

1. Run nonstops between NA and India to capture high yielding biz pax
2. Have close JV with European partner (in this case, LH) to handle lower yielding folks to retain alliance loyalty

Just half a year ago, AC and NH partnered closely on new HND-Canada services - AC does YYZ and NH does YVR. The way I see it is that AC is just diversifying their options.

Furthermore, AI is not the antithesis of LH. LH was the one who sponsored AI into the alliance.

US citizens are visa free/ETA to India as of last week. Canada isn't - one would think AC would have pushed Canadian government on this prior to announcing.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 38): Russia can throw a wrench.

By doing what? Restricting overflight? Why would they do that?

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 38): AC slowly skipping *A elite club led by LH and UA

Those relationships are not going ANYWHERE any time soon.

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 38): It is aligning with SQ

SQ? Care to substantiate that with... anything?  

YOWza

Quoting NickLAX (Reply 43):

US citizens need visa to enter India.
http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/country/india.html

Quoting S75752 (Reply 35): Quoting flightsimboy (Reply 34): but unfortunately only if they do KHI would I be able to give it a shot Which language is that?

Hindi and Urdu, for two

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 42): Running a single nonstop to DEL is hardly a denouncement of the JV with LH. It's merely copying what UA is doing :

Ideally UA and LH would like AC to just feed their hubs and not to venture out.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 42): The way I see it is that AC is just diversifying their options.

That's a nice way to say.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 42): Furthermore, AI is not the antithesis of LH. LH was the one who sponsored AI into the alliance.

Lets see. It took 45 days to approve SQ A380 and ~200 days to approve LH A380(with German embassy involvement). DEL ops live streamed entire SQ A380 inaugural event and just tweeted about LH A380 inaugural flight next day. Indication of who is who.

Quoting NickLAX (Reply 43): US citizens are visa free/ETA to India as of last week. Canada isn't - one would think AC would have pushed Canadian government on this prior to announcing.

AFAIK India just announced first set of countries eligible for e-visa. I believe they are planning to extend this to 180 countries. So by 11/15 Canada may very well be e-visa eligible.

Quoting yowza (Reply 44): By doing what? Restricting overflight? Why would they do that?

We haven't seen the end of sanctions on Russian, so no one know who restricts what.

Quoting yowza (Reply 44): Those relationships are not going ANYWHERE any time soon.

And those legacy relationships will not take AC places either. Like I said both UA and LH would like status quo and AC is changing.

Quoting yowza (Reply 44): SQ? Care to substantiate that with... anything?

Not yet, but SQ is leading the non-elite member group of *A. So its only a matter of time.

Quoting DTWLAX (Reply 36): The flight arrives in DEL too late to offer any decent connections on AI.

They have a full year ahead of them to fix that. I would think AC must have already considered and brought this up with AI.

Quoting superjeff (Reply 47):

Urdu is spoken in Pakistan. I would reckon Punjabi as a second to Hindi.

Quoting b777erj145 (Reply 45): US citizens need visa to enter India. http://travel.state.gov/content/passports/english/country/india.html

No U.S. citizens are eligible for visa on arrival now.

https://indianvisaonline.gov.in/visa/tvoa.html