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OOer
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Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 6:55 pm

http://www.bizjournals.com/twincitie...er-comments-on-pay-gets-fired.html

----------------------

Workday Minnesota reports that Kip Hedges, a labor activist and 26-year employee of Atlanta-based Delta and its predecessor, Northwest Airlines Corp., was terminated this week after appearing in a video about 15Now, a group calling for a $15-an-hour minimum wage. In the video, Hedges called for a higher minimum wage.

"A lot of the Delta workers make under $15 an hour," he said. "As a matter of fact I would say probably close to half make under $15 an hour. So there's a lot of them that understand how important this is."

Hedges said he was told by Delta managers that he violated the airline's Advocacy Policy, which prohibits "untrue or disparaging" public comments about the company. He says his comments were accurate when Delta's contracted workers are included.

----------------------

Wow...this is the "family" Delta always refers to? Considering that about a third of Delta rampers are ready reserve and make $10 per hour I find it hard to believe that his statement isn't true.

[Edited 2014-12-06 10:55:58]
 
United1
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:12 pm

Quoting OOer (Thread starter):
Wow...this is the "family" Delta always refers to? Considering that about a third of Delta rampers are ready reserve and make $10 per hour I find it hard to believe that his statement isn't true.

I'd be shocked if his statement isn't true as well....$15 an hour works out to $31200 a year for a FTE and there are a lot of employees at all of the airlines who make less than that. There are two sides to every story however on the surface it does look like a retaliatory action by DL...hope that is not the case.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
HPRamper
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:14 pm

Quoting OOer (Thread starter):
Hedges said he was told by Delta managers that he violated the airline's Advocacy Policy, which prohibits "untrue or disparaging" public comments about the company. He says his comments were accurate when Delta's contracted workers are included.

Untrue, no. Disparaging, of course. The Ready Reserve system is absolutely a great way for the company to keep employees at very low wages, while keeping them lassoed to their job due to "required flexibility of schedule." It's complete crap.
 
PGNCS
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:23 pm

Quoting HPRamper (Reply 2):
The Ready Reserve system is absolutely a great way for the company to keep employees at very low wages, while keeping them lassoed to their job due to "required flexibility of schedule." It's complete crap.

Then don't take the job.
 
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compensateme
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:26 pm

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 3):
Then don't take the job.

Pretty ironic coming from somebody whose salary is inflated by a CBA...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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mayor
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:37 pm

Quoting OOer (Thread starter):
He says his comments were accurate when Delta's contracted workers are included.

But DL doesn't set the wages for contract workers........the company that they work for does.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
OOer
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 7:45 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 5):
But DL doesn't set the wages for contract workers........the company that they work for does.

I'm willing to bet that the wages of rampers and gate agents also average out below $15 per hour. Maybe someone who is more familiar with the breakdown of employees can chime in but last I heard the ready reserve agents made up about 1/3 of all agents and they're paid $9-$10 per hour.

Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
There are two sides to every story however on the surface it does look like a retaliatory action by DL...hope that is not the case.

I think this is exactly what it is. Such a shame that Delta is now resorting to Wal-Mart tactics.
 
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:20 pm

The fact that he relies on using employees of other companies (contracted employees) in his arguments really works against him here.

If could say that the average wage of all delta (and delta only) employees was below $15 per hour; and then presented the information in a different way he would probably be OK legally.

I suspect that he has very few legal legs to stand on; and in my opinion he was stupid to build and present his case the way he did. Does the Union really need someone like this representing them?

Have a great day,
 
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 8:35 pm

DGS (Contract) employees ARE Delta employees and we know what they make...
 
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northwestEWR
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:24 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 8):
DGS (Contract) employees ARE Delta employees and we know what they make...

I know several senior DGS supervisors that aren't making $15/hour. Rumor always was the station managers made barely more than that.
Northwest Airlines - Now You're Flying Smart
 
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PA727
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:41 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 6):

I think this is exactly what it is. Such a shame that Delta is now resorting to Wal-Mart tactics.

Might suggest you get your facts straight. Plenty of people at Walmart speak out about pay, benefits, etc., often backed by the big game hunters at the unions who would love nothing more than to unionize the world's largest company. Not only do they not get fired, the tactics do not work.

People, we're ALL very lucky, we don't live in the age of sweatshops anymore (at least in the U.S.) If you don't like a job, or you feel it is unfair, there is no law that says you need to keep it.
 
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sunking737
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:45 pm

With the ramp being non-union,(??) I would keep my mouth shut. NWA Ramp was making Good money. IIRC $15.25 or better. This guy shot his month off about others making $15.00 or more. MSP had the main entrance to Term. #1, shut down yesterday?? due to protesters marching for a higher starting wage. With the economy getting better and unemployment dropping in the Twin Cities Metro Area, finding workers is getting harder and they will bump up the starting wages.
"Don't believe it unless its parked on the ramp, or printed in the schedule...SUBJECT TO CHANGE"
Retired MSP Ramper
 
AST1Driver
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:52 pm

I don't want to see this turn into a pro/anti union thread (but it most likely will). The fact of this case is that Delta, like most companies, has very strict rules about employees talking to the media or putting out public statements without permission. You don't do it. There are a few people here on a.net that might want to remember that. Disciplinary actions can be taken from a slap on the wrist to loss of employment. Obviously Delta felt his statements were bad enough to fire him.

We would all like to see higher wages for our work, but no one has ever been forced to take one of these jobs. If you don't like the pay, don't take the job. Every company I have ever worked for has laid out their compensation policy during the interview process. By the way, does anyone know were the $15 amount came from?
 
johns624
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 9:52 pm

Quoting PA727 (Reply 10):
Might suggest you get your facts straight. Plenty of people at Walmart speak out about pay, benefits, etc., often backed by the big game hunters at the unions who would love nothing more than to unionize the world's largest company. Not only do they not get fired, the tactics do not work.

People, we're ALL very lucky, we don't live in the age of sweatshops anymore (at least in the U.S.) If you don't like a job, or you feel it is unfair, there is no law that says you need to keep it.

I see from your personal profile that you live in Bentonville Arkansas and are in Communications. Can I surmise that you work for Walmart in Corporate Communications and are spouting the company line?
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:01 pm

This gentleman has a lot of problems with his actions.

First of all, being a 20+ year veteran he understands that because of unions (which he is an advocate of) employees in the aviation industry are paid based of years of service not merit. In this environment, you accept that you will begin your career on the low end of the pay scale and work your way up with years of service. Being a veteran earning a nice wage himself (until recently) he understands this dynamic. The irony is he lost his job disparaging the company that was paying him a very good wage (and apparently has paid him well enough for 20+ years that he never sought other employment), in order to be an advocate for a union that is responsibile for the compensation structure he was complaining about. Everynbody is entitled to their opinions and to support whatever they want, but I really wish people would educate themselves before decididing who/what to support.

Second, it appears he didn't do a very good job of knowing his facts before making a public statement. Delta would not have taken any action without the legal department reviewing his actions. I have no idea what the real statistics are but I think I will side with Delta on this one since they would be opening themselves up to a hefty lawsuit if they fired this man and his facts were correct. He seems to admit his information is faulty by later saying he believes his statement would be true if workers who were not employeed by Delta would be considered. Well, thats not gonna help him legally. Might sound good to say publicly but legally those employees are not Delta employees they work for a third party ( black and white no grey area). He should have stuck to making statements about what he knew to be true. (i.e. like his own wages but since that probably didn't fit the picture he was trying to paint he stuck his foot in mouth)

Lastly, his lack of remorse will likely ruin any chance of getting his job back. I know a lot employees at Delta that have been fired for varying offenses of company policy and appealed and got their job back. Its a matter of saying I know I did wrong, I apologize and I will follow policy moving forward if given another chance. Instead he is trying to double down on his unfactual statements and continue to hold public displays to advocate the union. I hope that his loyalty to the union is rewarded and they replace the wages he is losing.
 
phillyramp270
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:04 pm

I feel sorry for the DL rampers
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LAXtoATL
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:19 pm

Quoting OOer (Thread starter):
Wow...this is the "family" Delta always refers to? Considering that about a third of Delta rampers are ready reserve and make $10 per hour I find it hard to believe that his statement isn't true.

Family? That is a two way street. You don't go out and publicly (and falsely) harm your family. Delta is protecting the rest of its family. This gentlemen has demonstrated he doesn't want to be part of the family.

Careful with your numbers as well. You are saying a third of Delta rampers are RR. Are you sure those numbers are accurate? Beyond that he said Delta employees not just rampers. Also, you are making a false assumption that all RRs make the same wage which is not accurate.

Quoting United1 (Reply 1):
I'd be shocked if his statement isn't true as well....$15 an hour works out to $31200 a year for a FTE and there are a lot of employees at all of the airlines who make less than that. There are two sides to every story however on the surface it does look like a retaliatory action by DL...hope that is not the case.

Im with you, $15 is a very good wage. I'm sure a lot of Delta employees do not earn that. How many I will not speculate. As you also point out, we don't have the full context of his original statement and do not know what other statements he made that might have been false.

Quoting OOer (Reply 6):
Maybe someone who is more familiar with the breakdown of employees can chime in but last I heard the ready reserve agents made up about 1/3 of all agents and they're paid $9-$10 per hour.

This is absolutely FALSE!
I have no idea what percentage of employees are RR. I won't speak to that.
But the $9-10 per hour is way off. Wages are varied greatly depending on city and years of service. I can tell you for certain that there are RRs that make upwards of $15 per hour. I am also certain in certain cities if not company wide, the starting wage for RR employees at Delta is more than $10 per hour.

Quoting OOer (Reply 8):
DGS (Contract) employees ARE Delta employees and we know what they make...

DGS employees ARE NOT Delta employees. They ARE DGS employees.
In your opinion they might be Delta employees, but legally they ARE NOT.

Quoting AST1driver (Reply 12):
I don't want to see this turn into a pro/anti union thread (but it most likely will). The fact of this case is that Delta, like most companies, has very strict rules about employees talking to the media or putting out public statements without permission. You don't do it. There are a few people here on a.net that might want to remember that. Disciplinary actions can be taken from a slap on the wrist to loss of employment. Obviously Delta felt his statements were bad enough to fire him.

We would all like to see higher wages for our work, but no one has ever been forced to take one of these jobs. If you don't like the pay, don't take the job. Every company I have ever worked for has laid out their compensation policy during the interview process. By the way, does anyone know were the $15 amount came from?

Well said.
 
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:21 pm

Quoting PA727 (Reply 10):
Might suggest you get your facts straight. Plenty of people at Walmart speak out about pay, benefits, etc., often backed by the big game hunters at the unions who would love nothing more than to unionize the world's largest company. Not only do they not get fired, the tactics do not work.
http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/11/18/2962751/nlrb-walmart/

"the NLRB will prosecute the company for illegally firing and disciplining more than 117 workers"

Quoting PA727 (Reply 10):
People, we're ALL very lucky, we don't live in the age of sweatshops anymore (at least in the U.S.) If you don't like a job, or you feel it is unfair, there is no law that says you need to keep it.

Yes, we don't live in that age because of UNIONS. It wasn't out of the kindness of their heart that Corporations improved workings conditions for workers.
 
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PA727
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:30 pm

Quoting johns624 (Reply 13):
I see from your personal profile that you live in Bentonville Arkansas and are in Communications. Can I surmise that you work for Walmart in Corporate Communications and are spouting the company line?

You are correct, I do work for Walmart, but not in an external communications role. I'm just spouting what life has taught me 

Do I have grievances with the place I work? You bet I do, and I would guess everyone does. That's human nature. I also love my job and the opportunities I have been given. You take the good and the bad, weigh them out and chose if it's worth it.

My beef is this, anytime anything is viewed as negative, it's called the Walmartization, or lowering to Walmart standards. Everyone loves to attack the biggest anything. Does Walmart do some things for its people that are better than its competitors? Sure. Do Walmart's competitors do some things better for their people? Sure?

In the end, any company, whether it's Walmart, Target, Delta, United or American needs to do what's best when balancing the needs of it's people alongside its business model and obligation to shareholders. People want low-cost airline tickets as much as they want to save money on the products they buy. Businesses react to what their customers want. Their customers are also their employees in many cases (save for airlines and non-rev, or in my case a 10% discount.)

If that's the company line, then I guess I have been infected by the Kool-Aid, although that premise would seem laughable to anyone who knows me 
 
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NWAROOSTER
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting PA727 (Reply 10):
People, we're ALL very lucky, we don't live in the age of sweatshops anymore (at least in the U.S.) If you don't like a job, or you feel it is unfair, there is no law that says you need to keep it.

Basically everyone working at Delta Air Lines, except for the pilots and one other small union group, are "at will" employees, this includes those working at Delta's subcontractors are also "at will" employes and can be discharged for any reason that Delta sees fit, no matter how trivial it is. Delta may not have to even give the discharged employee a reason for discharge.
Yes, more people should vote with their feet and find better employment, but that may not be a viable option yet and are willing to work at the Wallmarts of this country. Unions were created out of necessity and unfortunately even though most unions are most likely corrupt and also protect the slugs who do not carry their weight, it is one way the employees that do their job are not "invited" to lay bricks at the home of their managers. I have seen employees discharged due to the fact they did not spend their off work time laying bricks for their manager.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
Noise
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting Phillyramp270 (Reply 15):
I feel sorry for the DL rampers

I don't.

It's a free county. If they don't like their pay then they're free to leave and work elsewhere.
 
UA772IAD
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:37 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 16):
Im with you, $15 is a very good wage. I'm sure a lot of Delta employees do not earn that. How many I will not speculate.

$15/HR is a good wage if it's your first job out of college and you're living at home with your parents. Or living in Manhattan, Kansas.

Keep in mind that is BEFORE taxes.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 16):
Careful with your numbers as well. You are saying a third of Delta rampers are RR. Are you sure those numbers are accurate?

My understanding is that this value is pretty accurate. FWIW, Airport Customer Service also falls under the scope of Ready Reserve and at smaller stations, staff work both ramp and customer service. RNO is one of those stations.
 
United1
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:41 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 16):
Im with you, $15 is a very good wage.

I didn't say that $15 an hour is a good wage (although depending on what you are doing it may be a fair wage) I for one could not live off that amount.....
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
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PA727
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:46 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 17):
"the NLRB will prosecute the company for illegally firing and disciplining more than 117 workers"

This is an airline forum, so I will be brief so as not to derail, but prosecute, yes. And quite frankly, I do not know if that litigation is even completed yet, so what is the ultimate outcome?

Do all companies make mistakes, yes, not trying to deny that. But from my experience, in a company of 2.3 million there is a conscious effort to do what is right.

I'm not here to pitch anything, and honestly I have no dog in this fight, but I understand we will probably agree on very little as I imagine you believe the world is black and white with no shades of grey. Both my parents were card-carrying union members for PA, which was great during the 50's and 60's. Problem is, when you become a swollen, slow moving organization hampered by poor management and a changing industry, that same union that created such great condintions also contributed - key word contributed NOT caused - part of the paralysis and inability to change that led to the end.

Find me a perfect solution and I show you a flawed idea 
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:53 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 19):
Basically everyone working at Delta Air Lines, except for the pilots and one other small union group, are "at will" employees, this includes those working at Delta's subcontractors are also "at will" employes and can be discharged for any reason that Delta sees fit, no matter how trivial it is. Delta may not have to even give the discharged employee a reason for discharge.

Delta cannot terminate discharge employees that work for a third party! Those employees do not work for Delta. Delta cannot even provide direction to those employees. Delta can of course terminate the contract of the company providing the service and thus all the employees but they cannot terminate a single employee working under the authority of another company. This is legal not opinion.

As for the remaining at will Delta employees. Technically you are correct that Delta can fire anybody at anytime for no reason if they choose. However, if we are speaking practically that does not and cannot happen. There are federal and state labor laws that prevent that. Eventough Delta has the contractual right to terminate the employment of any at will individual without or notice or reason, in practive this only applies if Delta is closing an operation or altering their business significantly and do not need an entire group of people. Delta cannot single out an individual and terminate them without cause. They would be subject to lawsuit (there are several laws that would apply in this situation). Thus you don't ever see Delta exercise their right to terminate an employee without cause. Even when they close or severly downsize a station they always offer all individuals employment elsewhere (and this they dont have to do and would be legally covered but still its the right thing to do)

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 19):
Yes, more people should vote with their feet and find better employment, but that may not be a viable option yet

People should vote with their feet. Not their mouths. If voting with your feet is not a viable option, then an individual should use some common sense and appreciate the only opportunity they have (the opportunity provided by the company they want to speak out against).
I have no problem with people speaking out against their company. We live in a country with free speech. Feel free to exercise but understand what the consequences could be and ready to leave and accept the consequences of your actions. I can respect an individual that is willing to speak out for something they believe in and risk their job to do so, however I will not feel sorry for you if the consequences come to fruition (whether or not you understood the risk before hand or not - that is your responsibility to know before you stand on your soap box)
 
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PA727
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:55 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 19):
Unions were created out of necessity and unfortunately even though most unions are most likely corrupt and also protect the slugs who do not carry their weight, it is one way the employees that do their job are not "invited" to lay bricks at the home of their managers. I have seen employees discharged due to the fact they did not spend their off work time laying bricks for their manager.

Agree with you 100% on all accounts, and maybe that's the thing, some philosophies are slow to change with the issues of the times.

Unfortunate incidents like what you mentioned about brick-laying are much more likely to happen at smaller companies, simply because they don't get the media scrutiny or have the same "target" on their back as the larger companies do, where every alleged violation - while still very wrong if true - is magnified and scrutinized.

Nobody should ever be subjected to unsafe or unlawful working conditions, and those who are should have recourse. But now I'll sound like the old man I'm slowly becoming, if you don't like something, don't think it's "fair" or are unhappy about it, don't play the victim, do something about it!
 
OOer
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 10:59 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 16):
Family? That is a two way street. You don't go out and publicly (and falsely) harm your family. Delta is protecting the rest of its family. This gentlemen has demonstrated he doesn't want to be part of the family.

How did he harm the "family"? By telling the truth?

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 16):
Careful with your numbers as well. You are saying a third of Delta rampers are RR. Are you sure those numbers are accurate? Beyond that he said Delta employees not just rampers. Also, you are making a false assumption that all RRs make the same wage which is not accurate.

A vast majority of RR agents make somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 per hour. Some make $9, some make $11, and maybe the top 1% make above $12 per hour.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 16):
DGS employees ARE NOT Delta employees. They ARE DGS employees.
In your opinion they might be Delta employees, but legally they ARE NOT.

Actually they are...legally. DGS is a subsidiary of Delta Air Lines Inc and therefore DGS employees ARE Delta employees but simply employed by a sister company. All part of the "family".

But even without counting the "contract" employees...I still think that it is accurate to say that nearly 1/2 of Delta ACS agents make less than $15 per hour. He's a ramp agents so it was implied that he was talking about his own coworkers. Of course we know that nobody at Delta management makes $15 per hour...the executives themselves have been dumping dozens of millions of dollars this year alone.
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:02 pm

Quoting UA772IAD (Reply 21):
$15/HR is a good wage if it's your first job out of college and you're living at home with your parents. Or living in Manhattan, Kansas.

Keep in mind that is BEFORE taxes.

I didn't say an ideal wage. I said a good wage. If you are not living in LA or NY, you can live comfortably on $15/hr. Not lavishly but comfortable.

I have not vetted my figures but a quick google search says that the average hourly wage of hourly employees in the U.S. is currently $10.34. So, $15 is well above that. If you want to include salaried employees into that calculation, then the average hourly wage for all U.S. employees is $24.66. So, below average for the entire country but well above average for similarly compensated individuals. If you want to earn the big bucks, pay for an education and get a masters degree or become a doctor - don't apply for a job out of high school at McDonald's or an airline.
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:09 pm

Quoting United1 (Reply 22):

We are in agreement.
I was saying it is a good wage considering the work performed. And that I questioned just how many of Delta's employees would earn that wage. I don't know but as mentioned in previous post it is well above average almost 50% more than the national average for hourly employees.
I would not want to live off of $15/hr either, but I made decisions in my life that allow me to command more than that.
People have to look at the entire economic picture, not just their situation, when they decide how much they are worth.
I would love to demand $1mil a year salary, but I understand that my skill set and experience do not justify that and I can easily be replaced if I insist on it. I request and accept what I feel is fair to me balanced by the economic realities that my employer is dealing with as well (there is a sweet spot where the two should overlap or time to find a new employer or career)
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:25 pm

Quoting OOer (Reply 26):
How did he harm the "family"? By telling the truth?

He wasn't telling the truth. Even if you want to include the contract employees to make his statements true, that was not his original statement. So he has even conceeded that his statements were false. This is assuming that was the only statement of fact at issue.

Quoting OOer (Reply 26):
A vast majority of RR agents make somewhere in the neighborhood of $10 per hour. Some make $9, some make $11, and maybe the top 1% make above $12 per hour.

Like the gentleman in question in the article, your statements are false. Why say this when you have no data to support it??? Just saying it does not make it so. I know for a fact that no Delta RR agent makes $9 or $10 an hour as that is below their company company! So, let's take that out of the discussion and lets me know you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't how many or what percentage (and clearly you don't) make more than $12, but I personaly know many that make more than $12.

Quoting OOer (Reply 26):
Actually they are...legally. DGS is a subsidiary of Delta Air Lines Inc and therefore DGS employees ARE Delta employees but simply employed by a sister company. All part of the "family".

Wrong. A subsidiary is still a seperate 'legal' entity. Therefore legally, they work for DGS and NOT Delta. If you are going to deabate, learn the difference between your opinion and what is fact or 'legal'. If they were Delta employees they would be Delta employees. Their paychecks would say Delta, there W2s would say Delta. Legally the goverment, the state, and the city they work/live in recognize DGS as their employer. When they fill out any legal forms they say they work for DGS. Since 'family' is a objective term you are within your right to consider them part of the family as well.

Not sure where you got your figures from on what the vast majority of RR workers earn, maybe you have figures from DGS employees and you are confusing the two groups (which are legally completely seperate entities and workgroups). But then to my knowledge DGS doesn't have RR employees do they?
 
OOer
Topic Author
Posts: 995
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:10 pm

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:55 pm

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 29):
He wasn't telling the truth. Even if you want to include the contract employees to make his statements true, that was not his original statement. So he has even conceeded that his statements were false. This is assuming that was the only statement of fact at issue.

I'm not counting the contract agents. I'm talking about DELTA only ACS agents. To say that 50% of them make $15 per hour or less is an accurate statement.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 29):
Like the gentleman in question in the article, your statements are false. Why say this when you have no data to support it??? Just saying it does not make it so. I know for a fact that no Delta RR agent makes $9 or $10 an hour as that is below their company company! So, let's take that out of the discussion and lets me know you have no idea what you are talking about. I don't how many or what percentage (and clearly you don't) make more than $12, but I personaly know many that make more than $12.

I just pulled up the ACS payscale and the starting out wage is $10 and change per hour. A ramp agent doesn't make $15 per hour until AFTER 4 1/2 years of service. Also, what you fail to acknowledge is that ready reserve agents are NOT on the normal ACS pay scale. The max hourly rate for a ready reserve agent is $12 (yes, I just had someone look that up on the internal Delta website and verify it).

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 29):
Wrong. A subsidiary is still a seperate 'legal' entity. Therefore legally, they work for DGS and NOT Delta. If you are going to deabate, learn the difference between your opinion and what is fact or 'legal'. If they were Delta employees they would be Delta employees. Their paychecks would say Delta, there W2s would say Delta. Legally the goverment, the state, and the city they work/live in recognize DGS as their employer. When they fill out any legal forms they say they work for DGS. Since 'family' is a objective term you are within your right to consider them part of the family as well.

Ok pal, techincally it's a separate company but DGS is in the Delta Air Lines Inc family of companies. It's like saying that an employee of ABC isn't an employee of Disney when they are. DGS employees also receive travel benefits on Delta further proving that they are part of the Delta family.
 
johns624
Posts: 3176
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:05 am

Yes, and everyone knows that Delta started DGS to outsource jobs so they could cut pay. What is "legal" and what is "right" are often two different things. You're talking like a lawyer and I suspect you were one.
 
usflyer msp
Posts: 3988
Joined: Tue May 23, 2000 11:50 am

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:22 am

I don't think this was a fair firing.

I also think this guy should have been much more careful. He was the outspoken head of the very militant IAM local when NWA was around so he should have known he had a target on his back. The few things Delta hates more than Unions and Union organizers...
 
ASFlyer
Posts: 1750
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:25 pm

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:29 am

All this talk about "family". Family doesn't cut one another loose based on one incident. They would talk it out and learn from the mistakes made, if there were mistakes. Delta likes to talk about their "direct relationships" but I think it's interesting, the groups that have the best work rules and pay are those covered under unions. Pilots have WAY more say in their futures at Delta than anyone else does. Of course they make more than a ramp agent or Customer Service Agent, but disproportionately more. Why? Because they are smart enough to know that they aren't part of a family but are instead, working for a business and choose to have a business relationship rather than a feel good family that disintegrates the minute the patriarch is unhappy with you.
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4726
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 am

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:31 am

Quoting PA727 (Reply 10):
People, we're ALL very lucky, we don't live in the age of sweatshops anymore

....

Because of unions.

...

Quoting PA727 (Reply 10):
If you don't like a job, or you feel it is unfair, there is no law that says you need to keep it.

Nobody was forcing anybody to work in sweatshops, either. You didn't like it, you left.

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 27):
If you are not living in LA or NY, you can live comfortably on $15/hr.

Sure, if you're single with no kids.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
johns624
Posts: 3176
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:40 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 34):
Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 27): If you are not living in LA or NY, you can live comfortably on $15/hr.
Sure, if you're single with no kids.

Yeah, and no hobbies and no nice vacations and no retirement fund and no new car, etc, etc.
 
OOer
Topic Author
Posts: 995
Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2005 2:10 pm

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:00 am

Quoting johns624 (Reply 35):
Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 27): If you are not living in LA or NY, you can live comfortably on $15/hr.

Let's do the math.

$15 per hour x 40 hours per week x 52 weeks a year = $31,200 per year

$31,200 per year - 20% in taxes = $24,960 net

$24,960 - $150 per month in health insurance, STD, dental, and vision = $23,160

$23,160 - 5% in a 401(k) = $22,000

$22,000 take home pay = $1,833 per month

Let's not talk about NYC/LAX (even though they're 2 major DL hubs). Let's look at ATL, the MAIN hub. A decent 1 bedroom apartment (not in a ghetto area) = $800 per month + $75 electric + $75 internet+cable = $950 per month.

$1,833 per month - $950 = $883 per month left over.

Used car payment = $250 per month
Gas+insurance = $250 per month

$883 per month - ($500) = $383 per month

Cell phone service = $60 per month

$383 per month - $60 = $323 per month

$323 per month leftover for food, clothing, healthcare/prescription drugs, and entertainment. ($11 per day)

Sounds like a FAB lifestyle doesn't it?
 
LAXtoATL
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:55 am

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:06 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 30):
I'm not counting the contract agents. I'm talking about DELTA only ACS agents. To say that 50% of them make $15 per hour or less is an accurate statement.

Facts? What data are you using to making this statement? You might be correct but I your track record on facts is not very good (because you will see below that I no you have no idea what you were or are talking about in regard to RR wages at Delta).

Quoting OOer (Reply 30):
I just pulled up the ACS payscale and the starting out wage is $10 and change per hour. A ramp agent doesn't make $15 per hour until AFTER 4 1/2 years of service. Also, what you fail to acknowledge is that ready reserve agents are NOT on the normal ACS pay scale. The max hourly rate for a ready reserve agent is $12 (yes, I just had someone look that up on the internal Delta website and verify it).



I'm confused. Are we talking ACS payscale or RR payscale. You seem to be jumping around to not admit you were wrong. Let's stick to RR, since you said a vast majority make $10 per hour. Now since, you said you had someone look up on the internal Delta website and verify the max hourly rate at $12 then I am sure you the min hourly rate for RR is not $9 or $10 as stated (with no basis in fact) and yet you still fail to acknowledge that. Now, while the min rate for RRs does not have a exception, there are exceptions for the maximum scale rate. Once again it is difficult to discuss something when you don't know what you are talking about. I personally know RRs that make more than $15 an hour. And while I could explain how and why that happens, I will let you and your source find research what the exceptions are. But unlike you, I know what Im talking about. Im not guessing as you initially did or asking someone to look a generic policy that does have exceptions without researching if there are exceptions to the stated rate. Now that we hopefully have settled the RR wage debate, let's go back to ACS scale - you say a ramp agent makes $15 per hour after 4.5 years. Now the question becomes what percentage of workers have been at Delta more than 4.5 years. I don't know and I don't care to look it up. But I will guess more than half have been on the job for more than 4.5 years.

Quoting OOer (Reply 30):
Ok pal, techincally it's a separate company but DGS is in the Delta Air Lines Inc family of companies. It's like saying that an employee of ABC isn't an employee of Disney when they are. DGS employees also receive travel benefits on Delta further proving that they are part of the Delta family.

Not technically. No matter how you look at. I didn't know Delta had a family of companies and I'm pretty sure you just made that up. When you start comparing other corporate entities there are a lot of complexities than can come into play why in one instance multiple companies are managed as one. However, that is not the case with Delta and DGS - they have differnt rules, policies, and employment standards. And even in the case of ABC, to the best of my knowledge they are not a wholly owned subsidiary of Disney. There is no seperate company. ABC is one brand of many networks that Disney-ABC group manages as one company. And back to DGS, I do not believe they they recieve the same travel benefits as Delta employees. If I am correct in that statement, I'll let infer what that means to this discussion.
 
LAXtoATL
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:55 am

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:21 am

Quoting johns624 (Reply 31):
Yes, and everyone knows that Delta started DGS to outsource jobs so they could cut pay. What is "legal" and what is "right" are often two different things. You're talking like a lawyer and I suspect you were one.

Of course Delta started DGS to outsource jobs so they could pay them less. Less than Delta employees!
Thats the point. They hired a seperate group that would not have the same responsibilities or benefits of being a Delta employee. This is definitely legal and not something novel to Delta. I won't even waste my time debating whether it is "right" or not since that is very subjective. I also might agree with you if we discuss it macro environment and not a micro environment.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 33):
All this talk about "family". Family doesn't cut one another loose based on one incident. They would talk it out and learn from the mistakes made, if there were mistakes.

My opinion: This was definitely not the first incident.

Quoting ASFlyer (Reply 33):
Delta likes to talk about their "direct relationships" but I think it's interesting, the groups that have the best work rules and pay are those covered under unions. Pilots have WAY more say in their futures at Delta than anyone else does. Of course they make more than a ramp agent or Customer Service Agent, but disproportionately more. Why? Because they are smart enough to know that they aren't part of a family but are instead, working for a business and choose to have a business relationship rather than a feel good family that disintegrates the minute the patriarch is unhappy with you.

Are you really suggesting that Delta's pilots make more than ramp agents because of a union???
I guess there skill set doesn't have anything to do with it.
How do you explain the fact that Delta ramp / customer service agents / Flight Attendants (all of whom don't have union representation) are more than not better compensated than their counterparts at other airlines?
Or the fact that just recently AA's unionized FAs fought for and rejected a contract because it didn't match the compensation of Delta's non-unionized FAs???
 
LAXtoATL
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:55 am

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:28 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 36):
Let's do the math.

$15 per hour x 40 hours per week x 52 weeks a year = $31,200 per year

$31,200 per year - 20% in taxes = $24,960 net

$24,960 - $150 per month in health insurance, STD, dental, and vision = $23,160

$23,160 - 5% in a 401(k) = $22,000

$22,000 take home pay = $1,833 per month

Let's not talk about NYC/LAX (even though they're 2 major DL hubs). Let's look at ATL, the MAIN hub. A decent 1 bedroom apartment (not in a ghetto area) = $800 per month + $75 electric + $75 internet+cable = $950 per month.

$1,833 per month - $950 = $883 per month left over.

Used car payment = $250 per month
Gas+insurance = $250 per month

$883 per month - ($500) = $383 per month

Cell phone service = $60 per month

$383 per month - $60 = $323 per month

$323 per month leftover for food, clothing, healthcare/prescription drugs, and entertainment. ($11 per day)

Sounds like a FAB lifestyle doesn't it?

What are you trying to say? Delta is responsible to pay a reasonable and fair wage not to ensure a particular lifestyle.
As I previously provided, the national average (based on my quick google search) for hourly employees is $10.34. Delta is paying their employees well over that rate. If you are arguing that it is dificult to live off of $15 an hour then that is a social issue to address with your government, that is not a Delta issue.
 
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SLCUT2777
Posts: 3479
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2006 12:17 am

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:33 am

Quoting USFlyer MSP (Reply 32):
I also think this guy should have been much more careful. He was the outspoken head of the very militant IAM local when NWA was around so he should have known he had a target on his back. The few things Delta hates more than Unions and Union organizers...

Just as any UFCW mole who infiltrates Walmart. Union sympathizers know they are subject to immediate termination just as organizers on any company property are subject to having criminal trespass charges pressed against them.
DELTA Air Lines; The Only Way To Fly from Salt Lake City; Let the Western Heritage always be with Delta!
 
CV880
Posts: 1004
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2007 7:56 am

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:31 am

Quoting OOer (Reply 36):
Sounds like a FAB lifestyle doesn't it?

They must have some disposable income....One thing not mentioned are the free travel benefits for ALL Family members of the household, including parents, which can amount to $10's of thousands of $$ per year. Granted, getting on a flight (standby) is a chore these days, but the benefit is there, and certainly used by most. Some RR's work for the flight benefits and are retired from other jobs or do it as a 2nd job.
 
alfa164
Posts: 3802
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:43 am

Quoting johns624 (Reply 13):
Can I surmise that you work for Walmart in Corporate Communications and are spouting the company line?

I would bet on it!

Quoting PA727 (Reply 18):
My beef is this, anytime anything is viewed as negative, it's called the Walmartization, or lowering to Walmart standards. Everyone loves to attack the biggest anything

People do not attack WalMart because it is big; they attack it because it is the lowest-common-denominator among retail stores... or, maybe more correctly, the lowest-common-denominator among any public company in the USA. Maybe in the world....

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 29):
Like the gentleman in question in the article, your statements are false. Why say this when you have no data to support it???

And why do you say what you say... when you have no data to support it? Tell us how many people at DL - what percentage, what number, anything factual - and let us make up our minds who is right. You keep spouting that everyone else has "no facts"... so where are yours?

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 38):
My opinion: This was definitely not the first incident.

Do you have any facts to back-up that opinion?

Quoting LAXtoATL (Reply 37):
I'm confused.

Yep.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
alfa164
Posts: 3802
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:47 am

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:49 am

Quoting CV880 (Reply 42):
One thing not mentioned are the free travel benefits for ALL Family members of the household, including parents, which can amount to $10's of thousands of $$ per year.

Almost every airline employee I have ever met tells me they went there for the flight privileges. For someone who loves travel, it is an almost-incalculable benefit. While some join believing being a flight attendant or pilot is still a "glamour" job, the thousands of other workers look forward to those flights as an important part of their pay package.
I'm going to have a smokin' hot body again!
I have decided to be cremated....
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1757
Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:29 am

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:51 am

Quoting PA727 (Reply 18):
Everyone loves to attack the biggest anything. Does Walmart do some things for its people that are better than its competitors? Sure. Do Walmart's competitors do some things better for their people? Sure?

Well... when more than half of a companies store-based hourly employees are on welfare, why shouldn't that analogy be used?
My post is my ideas and my opinions only, I do not represent the ideas or opinions of anyone else or company.
 
User avatar
airportugal310
Posts: 3693
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:57 am

Quoting CV880 (Reply 42):

Indeed. If I added up all the personal travel I did this year and last, it would have amounted easily between $20-30k per year. Not too shabby for a "benefit"

Of course the caveat is that if you don't have much disposable income, those benefits aren't as appealing when you factor in hotels, rental cars, and meals away from home.
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
Indy
Posts: 4944
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:37 pm

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 2:58 am

Quoting Noise (Reply 20):
It's a free county. If they don't like their pay then they're free to leave and work elsewhere.

Not really. Let me introduce you to a term called wage slavery. I am betting most people working these poor paying jobs cannot afford to set aside money for things like quitting a job to find a new one. And in a crappy job market about the only thing you are going to find is a poor paying part time job with no benefits. But I guess that is what you call freedom. I just hope they don't lose their home, car or whatever while they are busy being free.
IND to RDU to OKC in 18 months. This is what my life has become.
 
LAXtoATL
Posts: 596
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:55 am

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:00 am

Quoting NWAdeicer (Reply 41):

If you want my honest opinion, I think it is somewhere in the middle.
I am familiar with a lot companies and their corporate culture. I believe that Delta cares about its employees.
Even those on the frontline in ACS. Delta is pretty generous and lenient with them when it comes to following policies. Do they treat their employees as good as Google? No. But better than most companies in the service industry and definitely better than those at most other airlines. Do they do some of the things they do to keep the union off property? Of course they do. But does it really matter why? As long as they are treating their employees as well or beauty than they Union would be able to achieve - the employees are benefiting and without having to pay the union. As for profit sharing, I do not think the union dynamic has anything to do with that since that was issued company wide and I don't think Delta is scared about their accountants unionizing. If they wanted to, I see nothing stopping them making the majority of their ACS staff ready reserve. However, I do not think they want that. Ready reserves serve a purpose and is a cost effective way of managing incremental headcount (and a program that works to benefit of a lot employees that do not want to work a 40 hour shift - I know a couple full-time agents that stepped down to RR and even more that would if not for the loss of medical and 401k). However, Delta is not interested in entire ready reserve workforce. They want people that are vested in the company. Not only would customer service suffer (main reason), but also if all employees were limited to 1300 hours they would have to double their workforce and that would a headache to manage and add a lot of costs as well. So no, I don't think and for practical reasons I know they have no interest in replacing their full-time agents with ready reserves. The ready reserve program serves a purpose and it is good for that purpose.

As for the family issue, I don't think any corporation is truly family like. But relatively speaking, Delta is very good to its employees. Look at the compensation and work environment at other domestic airlines and you see that Delta treats its employees better (of course there are exceptions by station, department, or manager but as a whole they do treat their employees better than most). Even though it was 30 years ago, Delta employees purchased an aircraft for the company. Employees have to feel they have been treated quite well to voluntarily give of themselves like that back to the company. If anything suggests a family environment I would say that does. And I am unaware of any airline with a relationship with its employees like that. I'll say it again, is Delta the best employer in the country? No. Far from it. But are the one of the best in the service industry? Absolutely. Everything is relative. Just them based on their relative peers and not on the fact that everybody wants to be paid like programmer at a tech company.
 
32andBelow
Posts: 5085
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:54 am

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:01 am

Quoting Indy (Reply 47):
Not really. Let me introduce you to a term called wage slavery. I am betting most people working these poor paying jobs cannot afford to set aside money for things like quitting a job to find a new one. And in a crappy job market about the only thing you are going to find is a poor paying part time job with no benefits. But I guess that is what you call freedom. I just hope they don't lose their home, car or whatever while they are busy being free

This is not a bad job market anymore man.
 
johns624
Posts: 3176
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

RE: Delta Fires MSP Baggage Handler

Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:13 am

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 49):
This is not a bad job market anymore man

There are more jobs, but wages are still low. I see that you're in the 21-25 age bracket. Do you have a family or mortgage payments? Stuff like that hurts job mobility.

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