G500
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American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 12:28 pm

Why does AA have LAX/SFO-MIA all to it self? They have virtually no competition on those 2 large markets

LAX-MIA. American operates 8 daily flights (including a 777 & 767). Delta operates a sole 737 flight. No united presence

SFO-MIA. American operates 4 daily flights. again no United. No Virgin

SAN-MIA. American operates a sole 737 flt. (Understanable)

JetBlue doesn't fly between their large West hub Long Beach and MIA

[Edited 2014-12-07 04:34:55]
 
LAXtoATL
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:03 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):

West coast-MIA is a very long route and thus uses a lot of fuel and makes it an expensive trip. American has a hub in MIA and therefore they have a huge FF base there and onward connections. Difficult for an airline to compete against American when they have the advantage of onward connections to the Caribbean and S. America versus any other airline would operating point to point service and on top of that FF loyalty to AA and it is a very expensive route operate it is understandable why AA has little to no competition. This is what economists call a natural monopoly.
 
S75752
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 1:04 pm

Perhaps other airlines involve figure that the MIA specifically may already be saturated by AA, and FLL serves the MIA area quite sufficiently anyways with supposedly lower fees based on what others have mentioned here.

For B6 sure works out nicely having an FLL hub anyways.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:57 pm

American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Anyone is free to start service and compete with them if they see opportunity to make money there.
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29erUSA187
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:05 pm

I'm pretty sure DL has a 738 from LAX-MIA. Can anyone confirm?
 
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:11 pm

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 4):
I'm pretty sure DL has a 738 from LAX-MIA. Can anyone confirm?

Yes, one daily nonstop that departs LAX 1015P and arrives MIA 603A. The return is a 755A departure arriving LAX 1055A. All 738 equipment.
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MesaFlyGuy
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:27 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
Why does AA have LAX/SFO-MIA all to it self? They have virtually no competition on those 2 large markets

You have to keep in mind that, when looking at Miami, you have to look at Ft Lauderdale and, to an extent, Palm Beach as well. Whenyou look it at that way, you see this:

LAX:

2 JetBlue flights
3 Virgin America flights
1 Spirit flight
+1 Delta flight from MIA

SFO:

2 Virgin America flights
2 JetBlue flights
1 United flight

Not quite a monopoly when looked at on a larger scale.  
Quoting S75752 (Reply 2):
Perhaps other airlines involve figure that the MIA specifically may already be saturated by AA, and FLL serves the MIA area quite sufficiently anyways with supposedly lower fees

That's my assumption as well.

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
JetBlue doesn't fly between their large West hub Long Beach and MIA

JetBlue doesn't fly to MIA at all. And I wouldn't look for any adds out of LGB very soon, MIA or not.
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G500
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:28 pm

I was surprised to learn United doesn't operate LAX/SFO to Miami. That prompted me to start this thread
 
C010T3
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:32 pm

Are all slots taken at LGB or would any be free for a LGB-FLL flight on B6?

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
They have virtually no competition on those 2 large markets

Not quite. Even though many disagree, FLL-California still counts as competition in this case.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 4:35 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 8):
Are all slots taken at LGB or would any be free for a LGB-FLL flight on B6?

At this point it's a lack of aircraft. They cut LGB-IAD to fund DCA growth, so the slot is there but the plane is not.

However, with FLL being such an important station for them, I feel like if they wanted to add LGB-FLL, they would've done it by now.
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29erUSA187
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:01 pm

Quoting C010T3 (Reply 8):

Are all slots taken at LGB

How would all slots be taken, whenever I drive up to LGB, there is maybe one plane every 20-30 minutes, counting General Aviation
 
FWAERJ
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 5:25 pm

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 10):
How would all slots be taken, whenever I drive up to LGB, there is maybe one plane every 20-30 minutes, counting General Aviation

LGB is slot-restricted for commercial passenger airlines thanks to NIMBYs that basically want to shut down the airport.
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727LOVER
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:15 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 7):
I was surprised to learn United doesn't operate LAX/SFO to Miami. That prompted me to start this thread

That has amazed me for quite a long time as well.

Quoting MesaFlyGuy (Reply 6):
You have to keep in mind that, when looking at Miami, you have to look at Ft Lauderdale and, to an extent, Palm Beach as well

The way it's been told on here by certain folks (cough)

Miami snobs don't like the long, painstaking, excruciating, extremely painful, intense suffering, unbearably distressing, torturing drive up to FLL.

Perhaps B6 is the exception.
"We must accept finite disappointment, but never lose infinite hope." - Martin Luther King, Jr.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:43 pm

Is this all that surprising, especially from LAX? Ok maybe SFO-MIA is. However, with a large customer base in LAX and a fortress hub in MIA, this is a dumbbell route for AA. The same thread could be made for LAX-PHL/DFW/CLT?
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 6:47 pm

AA practically dominates MIA but FLL has a ton of service to California
 
cfichad
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:47 pm

FLL has Spirit, Virgin America and jet offering LA area flights.
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MAH4546
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 9:55 pm

There is significant competition - American, Delta, Spirit, jetBlue, United and Virgin America all compete.

South Florida-Los Angeles is an absolutely huge market (third largest East coast market from LA after NY and DC) and has upwards of 15 daily flights from all three airports during peak, including AA flying PBI-LAX.

Yes, there are those, myself included, who don't want to use FLL (not because of the easy drive, but because of the third world facilities) to which we only have AA and DL, but so be it.
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TW870
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:11 pm

Nobody has really answered the United question, though.

I hear that people can drive up the coast and take a variety of LCCs out of FLL. But what I think is surprising that, given the size of the market and the economic importance of the LAX, SFO, and MIA regions, that an airline with the size, reach, and West Coast FF base of United doesn't connect the prime business airports in the three markets. Given the degree to which time matters for business travelers, the 29 mile drive to FLL just doesn't make sense when MIA is in town.

As LAXtoATL said above, perhaps it is the potential for high-yield onward connections to the Caribbean and Latin America (places that are connected to Miami's business community) that make the overall economics of the route so much better for American than United.

Is there something about the metropolitan area or the FLL air market that makes United chose FLL over MIA?
 
dfwjim1
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:14 pm

I noticed that AA was running four flights a day between SFO and MIA during Thanksgiving but
Now they are back to three flights a day. Are there plans to add a permanent fourth flight?
 
cschleic
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:17 pm

FLL provides for cheaper fares, since MIA is more expensive, so more flights from there. In terms of a lack of UA service...maybe there's limited O&D from L.A. and S.F. areas to Miami and, United would be flying from Miami to its west coast hubs for connections to....where? Anyone connecting would go through DEN or ORD. As for California originating traffic to vacation destinations, I have a feeling Hawaii is a much bigger draw.
 
MAH4546
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:24 pm

Quoting cschleic (Reply 19):

FLL provides for cheaper fares, since MIA is more expensive, so more flights from there.

No, there are actually more flights from MIA.

Quoting dfwjim1 (Reply 18):

I noticed that AA was running four flights a day between SFO and MIA during Thanksgiving but
Now they are back to three flights a day. Are there plans to add a permanent fourth flight?

Four flights during peak. The fourth is back for Christmas break.

Quoting cschleic (Reply 19):
maybe there's limited O&D from L.A. and S.F. areas to Miami and,

No, there is not. Both are very large local markets, especially Miami-Los Angeles.
a.
 
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SANFan
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Sun Dec 07, 2014 11:49 pm

I feel okay discussing SAN-MIA as it does fit within the scope of the thread.

The route has been reported as doing quite well for AA. They do, as said, have a monopoly to S. Florida from here. (In fact, there were some extra flights run by AA during the T'giving weekend between SAN and MIA.)

If the flight is doing well, I'm hopeful that SAN might see another flight to MIA added by AA one of these days -- a daylight e/b flight I would think -- and/or someone else might start a SAN-FLL flight. IMHO, WN would be the most logical one to start that route, with NK a distant second...)

The O&D numbers (according to DOT) certainly would support a second flight, especially when considering that at least some of the traffic on the current (single) AA flight is undoubtedly connecting.

bb
 
Kashmon
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:32 am

how is this a monopoly?

anyone can enter and exit the market, hardly any barriers... many airlines historically like UA have chosen to abandon this route.

It is similar to people who claim CX has a monopoly on the LAX-HKG route... nothing prevents UA or DL from starting a flight...

I always find it odd that on here EK is never accused of monopolies to Dubai from the US but other carriers like AA etc are targeted.

none of these routes are monopolies unless both the airports are slot restricted and there are 0 slots left- then there maybe an argument
 
Kashmon
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:33 am

not to mention if there is an airport within 30 mins - 1 hour from the other then unless one airline controls all slots at both airports - it is NOT a monopoly
 
tom11
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:30 am

I have to echo the words of many others on this post, FLL should be included when looking at the 'Miami' area. When you include FLL, it doesn't seem like AA has a monopoly.
 
FWAERJ
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:46 am

Quoting TW870 (Reply 17):
Nobody has really answered the United question, though.

I hear that people can drive up the coast and take a variety of LCCs out of FLL. But what I think is surprising that, given the size of the market and the economic importance of the LAX, SFO, and MIA regions, that an airline with the size, reach, and West Coast FF base of United doesn't connect the prime business airports in the three markets. Given the degree to which time matters for business travelers, the 29 mile drive to FLL just doesn't make sense when MIA is in town.

As LAXtoATL said above, perhaps it is the potential for high-yield onward connections to the Caribbean and Latin America (places that are connected to Miami's business community) that make the overall economics of the route so much better for American than United.

Is there something about the metropolitan area or the FLL air market that makes United chose FLL over MIA?

The reason is simple: Tilton-era UA reduced their MIA presence to a shell, not just killing the Latin America focus city, but also even ditching mainline service to places like ORD. Back then, if it wasn't MCO, TPA, or FLL and/or operated on all-Y Ted, UA wasn't interested in Florida. Heck, UA flew LAX-MCO and kept open a Red Carpet Club at MCO when others in bigger stations were being shuttered to appease Disney, as the mouse had their travel contract from LAX with UA.

CO in the same era had a much stronger Florida network, including the Continental Connection partnership with 3M.

Since the UA/CO merger, UA has been building their Florida presence on the sUA hub side back up, especially out of ORD where UA all but gave the Chicago-Florida market to WN and AA after Ted failed. UA has been focusing LAX on O&D traffic, so I could see a LAX-MIA, even if only at 1x or 2x daily.

[Edited 2014-12-07 18:48:35]
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N62NA
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 3:21 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 12):

Miami snobs don't like the long, painstaking, excruciating, extremely painful, intense suffering, unbearably distressing, torturing drive up to FLL.

Correct. I don't.

One day, some day, UA might start up SFO-MIA. I think that is far more likely than UA doing LAX-MIA.
 
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Tomassjc
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:50 am

Quoting 727LOVER (Reply 12):
Miami snobs don't like the long, painstaking, excruciating, extremely painful, intense suffering, unbearably distressing, torturing drive up to FLL.

Haha!. When I'm in Aventura/Bal Harbour, or even Sunny Isles/Surfrside, FLL may be a tad furher than MIA, but access is better and the non rev choices home to the Bay are far better!

Tomas SJC
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deltal1011man
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:20 am

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 5):

and even that flight isn't always daily. Looks like its 5x weekly in January for example.
 
bluejuice
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:44 am

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
LAX-MIA. American operates 8 daily flights (including a 777 & 767). Delta operates a sole 737 flight. No united presence

The same reason UA operated many LAX-IAH and DL operates many LAX-ATL. These are key hub to hub routes. MIA is one heck of a fortress hub for AA.
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ADent
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:21 am

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 25):
The reason is simple: Tilton-era UA reduced their MIA presence to a shell, not just killing the Latin America focus city, but also even ditching mainline service to places like ORD.

United had NO mainline service to Miami during the summer back before the merger.


United doesn't have a strong presence on some UA Hub to Other Airline Hub routes.

For example SFO-ATL is 2 mainline. No SFO-DTW. SFO-MSP is 2 RJ. SFO-DFW is 2 mainline, 2 RJ. Whereas SFO-DEN is 9 mainline.

RJs don't have the range for SFO-MIA, so the UA planners have to think it will fill up a mainline plane. And make a lot of money since it will tie up a plane for a day. They fly to FLL. Florida was a week spot for PMUA. SFO-IAH-MIA isn't that much out of the way.
 
BA0197
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 10:30 am

There are very few markets in the USA that lack competition. UA can route people through IAH. WN through ATL, US (now AA) through CLT. These are all reasonable options to the normal traveler. No monopoly exists here.

The only markets in the USA with monopoly carriers are airports that have only one carrier (not many).
 
yv773p
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 4:25 pm

AA has all the power in the MIA-California market that is why, save for the 772 rotation, there are only 738s and 32Bs flying the route. I've heard from a lot of ExPlats living in Miami that there is nothing worse than paying for F and boarding a 738 from LAX to Miami; however, they all say the hard product on the 738 F is a lot better in AA than in DL.
Even the lazy jellyfish do it!
 
MAH4546
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:11 pm

Quoting yv773p (Reply 32):

AA has all the power in the MIA-California market that is why, save for the 772 rotation, there are only 738s and 32Bs flying the route. I've heard from a lot of ExPlats living in Miami that there is nothing worse than paying for F and boarding a 738 from LAX to Miami; however, they all say the hard product on the 738 F is a lot better in AA than in DL.

The widebody schedule on that route is constantly changing.

Effective March 29th, two daily 772s and a daily 763 on MIALAX.
a.
 
coachclass
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 5:46 pm

Historically, United has never been a major player in Florida. Even with the collapse of Eastern and National 's merging with PA, UA never stepped in to fill the temporary void.

I always thought that AA and DL had a tacit agreement that AA could dominate MIA and DL do the same to FLL. DL's dominance in FLL over the years, however, has decreased considerably.
 
commavia
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:21 pm

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 34):
Historically, United has never been a major player in Florida. Even with the collapse of Eastern and National 's merging with PA, UA never stepped in to fill the temporary void.

Not true. After the purchase of Pan Am's Latin America network, United was absolutely a "major player" in Florida - with a stable of nonstop/direct connections from MIA to most of South America's largest and most important markets. United just took its eye off the ball by focusing attention elsewhere - and AA took full advantage.

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 34):
I always thought that AA and DL had a tacit agreement that AA could dominate MIA and DL do the same to FLL.

Hardly. No tacit agreement - just a reflection of each carrier's differing strategy. Delta has always been strong in South Florida, but has never operated a true network hub there the way AA has at MIA for the last 20+ years.

Quoting CoachClass (Reply 34):
DL's dominance in FLL over the years, however, has decreased considerably.

Decreased ... to not dominant at all. Today, nearly 60% of the airport's traffic is on low-cost carriers, and while Delta remains FLL's largest network carrier, the lead over merged AA is less than 1.5 percentage points.
 
UA444
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:29 pm

Quoting ADent (Reply 30):
United had NO mainline service to Miami during the summer back before the merger.

They still retained seasonal service to DEN and ORD.

Quoting ADent (Reply 30):
United doesn't have a strong presence on some UA Hub to Other Airline Hub routes.

For example SFO-ATL is 2 mainline. No SFO-DTW. SFO-MSP is 2 RJ. SFO-DFW is 2 mainline, 2 RJ. Whereas SFO-DEN is 9 mainline.

Thankfully, one SFO-MSP is reverting to Mainline next month I believe. They really should be offering at least 2x mainline, and really need to SFO/LAX-DTW, and LAX-ATL and have LAX-MSP be mainline. Time to start competing with DL.
 
tommy767
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Mon Dec 08, 2014 6:44 pm

Again, I don't see how this is a monopoly. You have to include FLL in the demographics of the MIA area and DL additionally flies LAX-MIA.

I do think it would make sense for UA to restart LAX-MIA or FLL using at the very least a 319 but they are probably worried about Virgin and AA kicking their ass so FLL-SFO stays for now.

Quoting FWAERJ (Reply 25):

I agree that seasonal mainline to MIA on PMUA was an embarassment but CO wasn't exactly a standout either. So they flew EWR-PBI/FLL on a few 757s to cater to the snowbird community? Big whoop. Even towards the end of the 2000s, EWR-MIA was largely served by the dumpy 733 and 735s and CLE-MIA was an ERJ.
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Rafabozzolla
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Tue Dec 09, 2014 1:55 am

It's that simple. White, English speaking Americans (point to point market) fly to FLL and the MIA market it mostly latino and international connections, and AA has this to itself. It's amazing how geographically close and, yet, how two worlds apart those markets (FLL x MIA) are.

On a side note, I just came back from a cruise arriving at Port of Miami and the OVERWHELMING majority of pax took the shuttle to FLL to fly back home. Most of the few MIA bound pax where on international connections.
 
greenjet
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:24 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 35):
Today, nearly 60% of the airport's traffic is on low-cost carriers, and while Delta remains FLL's largest network carrier, the lead over merged AA is less than 1.5 percentage points.

That lead is likely to increase though as the US/AA operation consolidates and with MIA down the road. In in the first ten months of 2013, Delta's market share at FLL was 12.5% and AA/US was at 12.2%. In the same period in 2014, Delta's market share increased to 12.7% (on the back of 5.2% pax growth yoy) and AA/US decreased to 11.3%. However, as you point out, both lag well behind the LCCs. JetBlue has seen 13.5% pax growth yoy in the first ten months of 2014.
 
commavia
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RE: American's Monopoly On Miami-California

Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:25 am

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 37):
Again, I don't see how this is a monopoly.

It's not a monopoly - either by strict or expansive definition. With literal respect to MIA-California, AA does face competition from Delta which operates MIA-LAX once daily. With respect to the broader market that must be considered in order to be credible - which encompasses all of South Florida, not just MIA itself - there is ample competition between MIA/FLL/PBI and multiple airports in California.

Quoting rafabozzolla (Reply 38):
It's that simple. White, English speaking Americans (point to point market) fly to FLL and the MIA market it mostly latino and international connections, and AA has this to itself. It's amazing how geographically close and, yet, how two worlds apart those markets (FLL x MIA) are.

It's not that simple - that's an oversimplification. There are plenty of "white, English speaking Americans" who fly to MIA.

You think AA is filling multiple flights each day from IND, BOS, STL, SEA, etc. with just foreign connections? No. I do agree with your general sentiment that MIA certainly skews more international and FLL more domestic - although MIA has become far more connected to domestic markets in the last decade.

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