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KarelXWB
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Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 7:55 pm

Boeing has decided to lower yearly output of the 747-8 for a third time in a row. Annual production will drop from 18 747-8s to 15.6 in September 2015.

Quote:
The decrease means Boeing will produce two fewer airplanes per year, Boeing said. The cut is being made "because the near-term recovery in the cargo market has not been as robust as expected," Boeing said.

The production slowdown is not expected to have a material financial impact, Boeing said.

The company also indicated it remains committed to the plane. "We continue to believe in the long-term strength of the freighter market and the 747-8 is uniquely positioned to capture this demand," Boeing said.

> 119 firm orders
> 80 deliveries
> 39 in backlog (some of them have been built already)

Boeing also owns three whitetails.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...09/us-boeing-idUSKBN0JN1YM20141209
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texl1649
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:06 pm

The end is nigh for the old girl, I fear.
 
hooverman
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:21 pm

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 1):

I don't think it's the end of the 747. The freighter will get more orders in the future.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:29 pm

They should just sever the thing, take the charge-offs, and be done with it.

747 has definitely earned its place in history, but that's where it now belongs... history.

It's the obsolete relic of a bygone era, that doesn't do anything particularly well anymore. At the risk of sounding too Disney: Let it go!
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
art
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:38 pm

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 1):
The end is nigh for the old girl, I fear.
Quoting Hooverman (Reply 2):
I don't think it's the end of the 747. The freighter will get more orders in the future.

Going to have to get them fairly soon.

I forget, is 748 supposed to replace the US presidential 747?
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:46 pm

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 1):
The end is nigh for the old girl, I fear.

The fat lady isn't singing, but she's warming up. 
Quoting Hooverman (Reply 2):
I don't think it's the end of the 747. The freighter will get more orders in the future.

If they're building half the backlog next year, then they need new orders now. Another 15 in 2015 would enable them to keep the rate at 15 for 2016 & 17. But, to put that in perspective, they've only sold 12 in the last four years.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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Armodeen
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:48 pm

Are the white tails freighter or pax models?
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:56 pm

Quoting Armodeen (Reply 6):
Are the white tails freighter or pax models?

All three white tails are freighters.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
a380787
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:01 pm

Luckily we still have a few stewards like LH CA KE that are willing to fly this bird another 20-25 years. Sitting in another cookie cutter ... I mean ... 77W, just doesn't feel the same.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:04 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 8):
Sitting in another cookie cutter ... I mean ... 77W, just doesn't feel the same.

The 777-300ER is hardly a cookie cutter. IMHO, it's the best airplane ever designed and built to date (at least until the 787 further proves itself.)
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:09 pm

I expect several more orders are forthcoming.

Only last week at investors event, Boeing Business Jets unit head said they are in talks with Middle East customers for "as many as 6" 748i and expects to finalize the deals in 2015.

Additionally Atlas Air recently stated are reviewing fleet options and need to start thinking about replacements for their 747-400F fleet as they hit 20-years of age. They specifically said they were reviewing more 748s along with 777Fs.
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crimsonchin
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:22 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Only last week at investors event, Boeing Business Jets unit head said they are in talks with Middle East customers for "as many as 6" 748i and expects to finalize the deals in 2015.

Pretty sure Boeing has been saying this since 2012, "deals in the works", bla bla bla. Let's see if it materializes this time.
 
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hilram
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:28 pm

Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 11):
Pretty sure Boeing has been saying this since 2012, "deals in the works", bla bla bla. Let's see if it materializes this time.

Just like they're saying that "project Ozark lives on" while nobody outside their organization believes they are putting more R&D into this program now.
Pessimistic that I am, I do hope that the recent tumble of fuel prices might skew a few orders in their favor. I do love the look of this plane.
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na
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:34 pm

Quoting texl1649 (Reply 1):
The end is nigh for the old girl, I fear.

10 years ago the 767 was doing worse, and that oldie is still being built.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 3):
It's the obsolete relic of a bygone era, that doesn't do anything particularly well anymore.

Nonsense. The 748F is the most capable freighter worldwide with no competitor on the horizon.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 9):
The 777-300ER is hardly a cookie cutter. IMHO, it's the best airplane ever designed and built to date

Again nonsense. The 77W may be an engineering icon, the right plane for today, sure, but bound to die rather soon. And its a "cold" product, a long distance bus with nothing of the aura of the 747. I doubt that in 50 years people will count the 77W among the ten most important airliners, while the 747 will still reign supreme.
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:17 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 9):
The 777-300ER is hardly a cookie cutter. IMHO, it's the best airplane ever designed and built to date

  

Quoting CrimsonChin (Reply 11):
Pretty sure Boeing has been saying this since 2012, "deals in the works", bla bla bla

  

Quoting na (Reply 13):
The 748F is the most capable freighter worldwide

"I'm gonna go with: no."

~signed,
AN225

Quoting na (Reply 13):
with no competitor on the horizon

...for a market that's essentially cratered, with little prospect for resumption beyond its current low level, due to the massive uptick in belly-cargo for pax aircraft?

Wow, what an awesome distinction to have.  
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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hilram
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:35 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 14):
"I'm gonna go with: no."

~signed,
AN225

Number of AN225s in service: 1

Number of 747 cargo planes in service: ?? Must be over 100.

I vote the 747.  
Flown on: A319, 320, 321, 332, 333, 343 | B732, 734, 735, 736, 73G, 738, 743, 744, 772, 77W | CRJ9 | BAe-146 | DHC-6, 7, 8 | F50 | E195 | MD DC-9 41, MD-82, MD-87
 
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gennadius
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 14):
...for a market that's essentially cratered, with little prospect for resumption beyond its current low level, due to the massive uptick in belly-cargo for pax aircraft?

Apparently you have missed the reports regarding the last 6+ quarters of positive growth in the cargo market, with levels now at the 2010 post-recession bounce-back levels... The cargo market has grown at over 4% this year and is projected to do so going forward. Are there still concerns, yes, however the view going forward is much brighter than it was two years ago, and it is far from a "cratered, with little prospect for resumption" market...
Per ardua, ad astra
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:00 pm

Quoting hilram (Reply 15):
Number of AN225s in service: 1
Number of 747 cargo planes in service: ?? Must be over 100.

Ah yes, because number in service completely addresses issue of which is the more capable platform, which if you were paying attention, was the point in contention.

Heck, by that assessment, I guess the 737 is the most capable cargo hauler of them all.  



Quoting gennadius (Reply 16):
Apparently you have missed the reports regarding the last 6+ quarters of positive growth in the cargo market, with levels now at the 2010 post-recession bounce-back levels..

WRONG, I've missed no such thing. Cargo's doing fine enough, and I'm not arguing otherwise.

The market I was referring to was dedicated freighters. If you hadn't (rather disingenuously) omitted the end of my statement; where I specifically allude to an uptick of cargo, that's being carried in pax aircraft bellies; you'd realize that.  

[Edited 2014-12-09 15:01:06]
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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gennadius
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:03 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 5):
If they're building half the backlog next year, then they need new orders now. Another 15 in 2015 would enable them to keep the rate at 15 for 2016 & 17. But, to put that in perspective, they've only sold 12 in the last four years.

Well, to be fair, Boeing sold 17 gross 747-8s last year, and 32 since 2011. The 15 DAE frames that account for the majority of that differential were pretty much a given unfortunately once their finances imploded and they started cancelling all of their orders.
Per ardua, ad astra
 
Beatyair
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:04 pm

Boeing is just waiting to see when the USAF order the new Air Force Ones. The idea of the B787 and the A350 is to get more planes in the air, more frequently and go the distance of a 747. B747 and A380 will go back and forth on few heavy capacity routes there are and the new, smaller plans will do the rest.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:23 pm

Quoting gennadius (Reply 18):
Well, to be fair, Boeing sold 17 gross 747-8s last year, and 32 since 2011.

Yes, but I was talking specifically about freighters in response to Hooverman.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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gennadius
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:24 pm

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 17):
WRONG, I've missed no such thing. Cargo's doing fine enough, and I'm not arguing otherwise.

The market I was referring to was dedicated freighters. If you hadn't (rather disingenuously) omitted the end of my statement; where I specifically allude to an uptick of cargo, that's being carried in pax aircraft bellies; you'd realize that.

No, I wasn't being disingenuous, I was driving to the main point of discussion which was the air cargo market, belly or otherwise. The air cargo market, as a whole, is what was beat down by the recession, what recovered through 2010, and then what fell quite a bit and then had only flat to minimal growth for the next several years.

While some capacity has shifted to passenger bellies, the actual effect of that capacity is not that cut and dry, and almost marginalized by the surplus capacity that freighters are having to contend with on their own due to the tonnage drop in the market overall. That surplus is what has really driven yields down, such that even now, as tonnage and prices are recovering, yield growth is still trailing the revenue growth.

Regardless, my point was that the dismissal of the freighter market out of hand is largely a rumor that has been greatly exaggerated.
Per ardua, ad astra
 
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gennadius
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:25 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 20):
Yes, but I was talking specifically about freighters in response to Hooverman.

Ah, apologies. The discussion was also about the overall rate of the 747-8 production, so I thought it was including both versions.
Per ardua, ad astra
 
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kanban
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:35 pm

don't understand this "salles are slow" cancel the program" garbage.. Boeing can go under 1 a month and still turn a profit.. I realize todays youth (that's anyone under 50) are instant gratification wonks, but Boeing is in for the long haul, so get real and let the experts decide... .. Where they did take your commendation on the 757, they now hear the same people whining about bringing it back..
 
holzmann
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:36 pm

So if it's such a bad plane why did the smart (bean-counting) Germans buy 19 of them? Just to flatter B?
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PEK777
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:37 pm

Shut 'er down boys!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
AvObserver
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Tue Dec 09, 2014 11:38 pm

Time marches on. The 747 has had a great run but the end is in sight, unless the cargo market recovers to the extent BCA hopes for. Sustained lower fuel prices may help a bit and they may sell some frames over it but I can't see how they can keep it going much longer, especially with the A350-1000 and the 777-9X coming. The A380, along with the current 777, put the 747 on the ropes but the 351 and especially the 779X seem poised to put the final nail in the coffin shortly. I'm not writing the obit just yet but it's looking bad. The eventual 778X freighter will likely be too stiff competition within BCA to continue justifying the 748F. So, in a few years, I'm afraid odds are we'll be reading about the closure of the 747 line. Sad.
 
chrisp390
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:01 am

Any chance of 5X ordering some 747-8F? That could bring some life back to the program
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:09 am

Quoting na (Reply 13):
Nonsense. The 748F is the most capable freighter worldwide with no competitor on the horizon.

But those capabilities are needed less and less.

Let us not forget that within a decade we should see the 777-8F enter the market. That plane should effectively match a 747-8 on payload lift and should effectively match a 747-400F on main deck payload volume. And it will burn a heck of a lot less fuel on 747 cargo stage lengths.

When that baby hits the market, I can't see why anyone would buy a new-build 747-8F.

And before somebody chimes in with "nose door loading of specialized cargo", that's going to be unique enough that the existing market of 747-8Fs and 747-400Fs will be able to fill it (IMO).



Quoting kanban (Reply 23):
Boeing can go under 1 a month and still turn a profit..


Can they? According to The Seattle Times, Boeing is already at risk of having to take a mot-insignificant charge on the 747-8 under Program Accounting Rules as they're almost 40 frames short of their current Accounting Block.

And can they better utilize the space of 40-21, 40-22 and 40-23 now dedicated to 747 assembly? Especially with the 787 still having production ramp snags (so I could see the surge line in 40-24 still being necessary for longer than planned and that space is supposed to be used for the 777X production line.

And what of this 757 replacement airframe we hear about? There is really no room in Renton for it, so either she goes to Charleston or Everett...



Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 27):
Any chance of 5X ordering some 747-8F? That could bring some life back to the program

They're canceling or deferring 777F orders in favor of more 767-300Fs because the growth for them is in domestic (and they have shedloads of A300s and A310s to eventually replace).

[Edited 2014-12-09 16:15:40]
 
747400sp
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:10 am

Quoting a380787 (Reply 8):
Luckily we still have a few stewards like LH CA KE that are willing to fly this bird another 20-25 years. Sitting in another cookie cutter ... I mean ... 77W, just doesn't feel the same.

           

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 9):
The 777-300ER is hardly a cookie cutter. IMHO, it's the best airplane ever designed and built to date (at least until the 787 further proves itself.)

Yes it may be the best plane built today, but it still a boring sole less aircraft. Look, us quad fans are really having a hard time avaition wise, so I do not think there is anything wrong with bashing the 77W. The 747 was the last Pan Am Clipper Boeing designed for Juan Tripp, so to see it get repaced by a strech version of a L-1011/DC10/MD11 size 767, is hard for some to deal with.
As a Pan Am fan, I want to see more new 747s in the air. I saw a brand new CI 77W at the TBIT, and it nearly made me sick. I am so thankful that QF never jumped on the T-7 band wagon. I can deal with 747s being replaced by A380s, because that is an upgrade, but a 77W is somewhat a down grade.
 
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ssteve
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:23 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 3):
They should just sever the thing, take the charge-offs, and be done with it.

That would be exactly the sort of hard-headed financial decision that could be expected, if there were the numbers and opportunity cost calculations behind it.

Problem is, it's hard to figure out what the numbers are. If the 747s being made right now aren't losing money, and the building and other resources can't be put to better use, why hurry up and cancel?
 
AndyEastMids
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:28 am

So with only 39 to deliver (and a few of those already built), there's less than two and a half years production left at 1.5 a month. What's the longest lead component / sub-assembly in 747 supply chain? i.e. When will there inevitably be a production delay if Boeing don't get more orders or speculatively commit keeping the supply chain open?
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:40 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
They're canceling or deferring 777F orders in favor of more 767-300Fs because the growth for them is in domestic (and they have shedloads of A300s and A310s to eventually replace).

You've got your airlines mixed up. Thats FX that favors the 763 over 777, a much more express driven company versus UPS with more emphasis on heavy freight.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
S75752
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:49 am

Why don't they do a Combi?

If the 747-8 is too much capacity for pax, then why not make the capacity variable like that, if the divider is in fact adjustable?

I don't get why the Combi 744's were so unpopular. It seems like a really nice strategy for airlines to adjust the pax/cargo balance to a sweet spot, if what I heard was right.
 
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gennadius
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:58 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 33):
If the 747-8 is too much capacity for pax, then why not make the capacity variable like that, if the divider is in fact adjustable?

I believe there are a couple of reasons. The first would be that since the new regulations have taken effect, due to the SA295 accident, make it far less economical or flexible than the combis used to be. The second would be that the 777 does have a significant amount of cargo volume for its pax load, thus effectively acting as a combi in its own right.
Per ardua, ad astra
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:12 am

Quoting gennadius (Reply 21):
Regardless, my point was

...completely irrelevant to anything I was talking about, and thus made absolutely no sense for you to be quoting me.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 24):
So if it's such a bad plane why did the smart (bean-counting) Germans buy 19 of them?

....LH isn't exactly known for following convention on fleet choice. Largest A343, A346, and 748 fleets-- hard to find a bigger cavalcade of losers in the overall market.

But Lufty, it does what works for it, and they appear to do it just fine.

Quoting kanban (Reply 23):
Where they did take your commendation on the 757, they now hear the same people whining about bringing it back

Who of any significance has ever whined for Boeing to bring it back???

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
But those capabilities are needed less and less

  

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 29):
but it still a boring sole less aircraft.

I didn't know aircraft wore shoes. That said, please don't pretend as if your opinion speaks for everyone... many of us find it to be an incredibly exciting aircraft.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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LAX772LR
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:18 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 33):
Why don't they do a Combi?
Quoting S75752 (Reply 33):
I don't get why the Combi 744's were so unpopular

It's said that the FAA would be reluctant (or outright hostile) to the idea of a new same-deck combi without a fixed bulkhead.

Having a fixed bulkhead (in theory) lowers the aircraft's value, as it therefore becomes less flexible to market demand than it otherwise could be.

Considering that the 747 has 1) nine toes in the grave already and 2) allegedly needed grandfathering to keep its pax certification as it is.... then it's probably not something we'll see Boeing investigating any time soon.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:26 am

Quoting hilram (Reply 15):

Beat me to it. Might be talking apples to oranges, but we're still talking about fruit.

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 35):
Where they did take your commendation on the 757, they now hear the same people whining about bringing it back

Who of any significance has ever whined for Boeing to bring it back???

A.net.   

Nostalgia won't keep the 747 going forever, but oh how I wish it would.

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kanban
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:32 am

Quoting Stitch (Reply 28):
Can they?


They can.. I hope they don't have to but a very slow line can still be profitable. It won't excite the get rich quick investors, but if there is a long term market they will.

Quoting S75752 (Reply 33):

Why don't they do a Combi?


There will be no combis.. current regulations make them unworkable.. do a subject search .. this is a frequent suggestion

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 35):
Who of any significance has ever whined for Boeing to bring it back???

Well how about an average of one "bring back the 757" a quarter for the last several years..
 
LH707330
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:44 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 35):
Quoting holzmann (Reply 24):
So if it's such a bad plane why did the smart (bean-counting) Germans buy 19 of them?

....LH isn't exactly known for following convention on fleet choice. Largest A343, A346, and 748 fleets-- hard to find a bigger cavalcade of losers in the overall market.

But Lufty, it does what works for it, and they appear to do it just fine.

They bought the 748 in 2006 because they forecasted a need for it in 2010/2011. As to the 343s, they got those starting in 1993 to replace the DC-10, 4 years before the 77E was out with comparable range. The A346 was a 742 replacement that offered better range and cargo than the 77W was projected to. Only in 2003/2004 did it become apparent that the 77W beat spec, so it's got nothing to do with "following convention," but more to do with fleet replacement cycles not aligning with releases of good 777 versions.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:44 am

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 32):
You've got your airlines mixed up. Thats FX that favors the 763 over 777, a much more express driven company versus UPS with more emphasis on heavy freight.

Ah yes. Their 747-400s are relatively new, but they did lose that frame in DXB...
 
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gennadius
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RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:20 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 35):
...completely irrelevant to anything I was talking about, and thus made absolutely no sense for you to be quoting me.

How in the world was it completely irrelevant. The discussion was about the air cargo market. I was talking about the air cargo market.

Your original reply was in response to this post:

Quoting na (Reply 13):
Nonsense. The 748F is the most capable freighter worldwide with no competitor on the horizon.

Your reply was:

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 14):
...for a market that's essentially cratered, with little prospect for resumption beyond its current low level, due to the massive uptick in belly-cargo for pax aircraft?

Wow, what an awesome distinction to have.

My reply was addressing those elements, both of which are dealing with the air cargo market. For example:

Quoting gennadius (Reply 21):
No, I wasn't being disingenuous, I was driving to the main point of discussion which was the air cargo market, belly or otherwise. The air cargo market, as a whole, is what was beat down by the recession, what recovered through 2010, and then what fell quite a bit and then had only flat to minimal growth for the next several years.

Yes...terribly irrelevant...   
Per ardua, ad astra
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 4020
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:40 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 39):

Quoting kanban (Reply 38):
Well how about an average of one "bring back the 757" a quarter for the last several years..

Huh?

Ah, I see that you are new to the site.. we had a thread not long ago on the most repeated/obnoxiously persistent thread subjects.. bring back the 757 was at the top, along with could the new AF! be an A380?

Sorry I should have checked the audience background before making an assumption..anyway welcome to A.net chaos and highly opinionated and frequently uninformed commenters.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6313
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 2:50 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 39):
Quoting kanban (Reply 38):
Well how about an average of one "bring back the 757" a quarter for the last several years..

Huh?

I think he's referring to the fact that frequently on A.net someone posts a thread asking why Boeing doesn't resurrect the 757 line. I think he's making a joke about someone bring that up every quarter over the past several years.

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 37):
Nostalgia won't keep the 747 going forever, but oh how I wish it would.

The 707 was an awesome airplane. The 757 was and is awesome. So were the 727 and DC-8. It's just that every good model's time comes. We'll all have to accept that when it occurs for each model.

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 29):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 9):
The 777-300ER is hardly a cookie cutter. IMHO, it's the best airplane ever designed and built to date (at least until the 787 further proves itself.)

Yes it may be the best plane built today, but it still a boring sole less aircraft. Look, us quad fans are really having a e
[quote=na,reply=13]Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 9):
The 777-300ER is hardly a cookie cutter. IMHO, it's the best airplane ever designed and built to date

Again nonsense. The 77W may be an engineering icon, the right plane for today, sure, but bound to die rather soon. And its a "cold" product, a long distance bus with nothing of the aura of the 747. I doubt that in 50 years people will count the 77W among the ten most important airliners, while the 747 will still reign supreme.

Your point doesn't hold any water. The 77W may "die" soon because it's replaced by the 777X. But you ignore the fact that the 747-100 was replaced by the 747-200, was replaced by the 747-300, was replaced by the 747-400, was replaced by the 747-8. You're applying a double standard.

I strongly disagree with your last point. I most certainly do think the 777 will definitely be in any list of the top 10 most important airliners when someone asks 50 years from now. Again you are comparing apples to oranges. You are pitting the entire 45 years of 747s against one minor model of the 777.

In 50 years the 777 will go down in history just as famous as the 747, IMO, if not more.
 
art
Posts: 3494
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:15 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 45):
In 50 years the 777 will go down in history just as famous as the 747, IMO, if not more.

Don't agree. 747 gave a monumental hike in capacity vis a vis 707/DC8/VC10 long haulers in use which transformed the economics of long haul flight...

747: 450+ pax in 2 class
707: ~ 150 pax in 2 class

777 improved but did not transform long haul flight economics.

Additionally 747 was instantly recognisable with its hump while 777 is not particularly distinctive in appearance.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6313
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:21 am

Quoting art (Reply 48):
Don't agree. 747 gave a monumental hike in capacity vis a vis 707/DC8/VC10 long haulers in use which transformed the economics of long haul flight...

So you are saying that in 50 years the 777 will not make the top 10 list of most significant airliners? Name ten airliners that will beat it.

707
727
747
DC-8
737
Concorde
A320
A330
A380
777

[Edited 2014-12-09 20:22:35]
 
User avatar
kanban
Posts: 4020
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 1:00 am

RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:33 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 49):

taken literally, how about the DC-3, DC-6, 307, 247, 377, Connie.. and the Comet for entirely different reasons..??

However I agree with your premise for jets.. and would only question the A320 and plug in the 787/350 as a new fuselage type of ground breaker
 
art
Posts: 3494
Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:46 am

RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 4:43 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 49):
So you are saying that in 50 years the 777 will not make the top 10 list of most significant airliners?

No. I quote below what you said:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 45):
In 50 years the 777 will go down in history just as famous as the 747, IMO, if not more.

I don't agree with that. What other aicraft from the jet era has a nickname that more people (I think) know than its actual name: "the jumbo" or "the jumbo jet". Closest I can think of is the Harrier with its tag: "the jump jet".
 
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BlueSky1976
Posts: 1890
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:37 am

Quoting LAX772LR (Reply 14):
The 748F is the most capable freighter worldwide with no competitor on the horizon.

Enter the 777-9. I believe eventually its freighter version will replace 747F.

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 30):
I do not think there is anything wrong with bashing the 77W.

I do.
747 is one of ugliest airplanes designed, like, EVER. Along with A380 and something from Australia called AirTruk.
It is an eyesore of modern aviation.

Let. It. DIE.
The queen of the skies is dead.
 
Andy33
Posts: 2567
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

RE: Boeing Announces New 747-8 Production Cut

Wed Dec 10, 2014 6:38 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 49):
So you are saying that in 50 years the 777 will not make the top 10 list of most significant airliners? Name ten airliners that will beat it.

How can anyone possibly know whether it will or it won't when over 50 years there's time for two further full generations of aircraft that haven't even been designed yet. 50 years takes you to 2064 for goodness sake. Shorten the time frame to 15 years and there's no argument.

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