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Motorhussy
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Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:48 pm

Well sort of.

The airline has confirmed to media that they will launch a service to a South American city, but not which one - details will be made clear later in the day today (Fri 12 December).

http://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/6...air-nz-to-fly-south-american-route

In the article it says the route will commence with the refurbished and ETOPS-330 cleared 77E aircraft.

Regards
MH

[Edited 2014-12-11 08:51:30]
 
CalTex
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:58 pm

Very interesting! The article seems to think it'll be EZE; are there any other strong candidates?

The article also mentions that "travel agency executives tipped Air New Zealand's new [North American] route would be to ORD" instead of LAS or IAH. We'll see if that holds true.
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 4:58 pm

So any guesses as to which city it is? I think it comes down to three, Buenos Aries, Sao Paulo or Santiago.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:24 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
So any guesses as to which city it is? I think it comes down to three, Buenos Aries, Sao Paulo or Santiago.

I'm still picking GRU as the top contender, it'll give NZ a competitive point of difference over LA and QF. Haqving said that, a lot of Australasians' destination is Argetina so I could see a triangular route of AKL-EZE-GRU-AKL alternating with the reverse AKL-GRU-EZE-AKL working well for the airline.

Brazilian partners Avianca Brasil and Azul now offer the regional support NZ needs (plus AV elsewhere). AR may partner up too but guess we'll find out in 2 and a half hours from now.

Regards
MH
 
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United787
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:40 pm

I am voting for LIM... Star Alliance hub and has the best geographic location for connections throughout South America!
 
zkncj
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:43 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 3):
Brazilian partners Avianca Brasil and Azul now offer the regional support NZ needs (plus AV elsewhere). AR may partner up too but guess we'll find out in 2 and a half hours from now.

And Azul did buy rights to use SkyCouch, so they must be very friendly with NZ
 
georgiabill
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:45 pm

I agree with United787 Lima makes alot of sense as it is a star alliance hub.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:46 pm

Quoting CalTex (Reply 1):
Air New Zealand's new [North American] route would be to ORD"

ORD is going to be a long haul! Thunderstorm re-routes/deviations in the summer might require some creative planning.

http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=akl-scl,+akl-eze,+akl-ord&DU=mi&E=330
 
IAHflyer97
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:47 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 7):

Regardless of what they do, wouldn't that require the plane to be payload restricted?
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 5:50 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 4):
I am voting for LIM... Star Alliance hub and has the best geographic location for connections throughout South America!

did you read the article?

"The service, starting late next year, would be to a city in Argentina or Chile, most likely under a code share agreement with another airline."
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:02 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 7):

ORD is going to be a long haul! Thunderstorm re-routes/deviations in the summer might require some creative planning.

How so? There must be a dozen airports within 250nm of ORD that could receive a widebody diversion.
 
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United787
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:05 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 9):
did you read the article?

"The service, starting late next year, would be to a city in Argentina or Chile, most likely under a code share agreement with another airline."

Obviously I did not, oops... That said, maybe NZ should read my posts   But seriously, I think SCL has too much OneWorld competition and EZE is good for connections to Argentina and southern Brazil only. Neither city has a large *Alliance presence so I am interested in seeing who they will partner with. Of course, they are running a very successful airline and I am not...

EDIT: Also, Argentina's economy continues it's century long decline whereas Peru and Colombia's economy's are doing well. I would also think there would be strong commodity ties between Australia and northwestern South America...

[Edited 2014-12-11 10:08:27]
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:06 pm

My money is on BOG.
Filler
Filler
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:18 pm

Quoting IAHflyer97 (Reply 8):
Regardless of what they do, wouldn't that require the plane to be payload restricted?

ORD-AKL with a 77E would have a payload quite a lot less than max passenger load in a NZ example. A 254 seat 789 would probably do it at max passenger load. The 77W would not do better than the 254- seat 789 and it would have close to 100 more seats to fill.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:20 pm

Quoting IAHflyer97 (Reply 8):
Regardless of what they do, wouldn't that require the plane to be payload restricted?

ORD-AKL is really pushing the range for the 789, even in good weather, according to the published range on the Boeing web site. It's much more B777LR territory, if anything. IMO. The first line of midwest thunderstorms that route the a/c over GRR or DSM before turning south will surely make the trip challenging.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:26 pm

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 10):
How so? There must be a dozen airports within 250nm of ORD that could receive a widebody diversion.

I was referring to the westbound, ORD-AKL leg. If the a/c gets stuck idling on a taxiway during a ground-stop or re-routed leaving ORD, the last chance for a refueling stop, if necessary, would be in the first few hours of the flight.
 
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United787
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:31 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 12):
My money is on BOG.

Another good option but would the altitude make the westbound leg difficult?
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:36 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 12):
My money is on BOG.
Filler
Filler

I am sure you wrote this with tongue in cheek.;At 8361ft above sea level and with a 12500ft run way it is not easy to get out of BOG and go very far.
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:39 pm

To get any sort of westbound payload on a 77E I think it has to be EZE, at least as the launch location to cross the Pacific.
 
a380787
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:41 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Thread starter):
In the article it says the route will commence with the refurbished and ETOPS-330 cleared 77E aircraft.

The 330 is the key word here. While AKL-LIM may make more sense from alliance perspective, ETOPS 240 can already handle that route. The only major game changer for NZ that actually requires 330 would be AKL-GRU.

Imagine convenient 1-stop MEL-AKL-GRU, something that QF+JQ+LA+JJ combined cannot offer. Even if QF counters with SYD-GRU, the fact that it will be 8300mi means even the 744ER would be payload struggling on both directions.

[Edited 2014-12-11 10:42:32]
 
lhcvg
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 7):

You know though, looking at the great circle route map, it doesn't look too bad to me. Obviously the over-water portion is what it is, but once you get "feet dry" again over North America, PHX and DEN are both pretty close to the flight path, you RFD out in the Chicago(hinter)lands, IND and MKE not too far off. I'd guess that's actually a fairly good set of options.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:54 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 3):
I'm still picking GRU as the top contender, it'll give NZ a competitive point of difference over LA and QF. Haqving said that, a lot of Australasians' destination is Argetina so I could see a triangular route of AKL-EZE-GRU-AKL alternating with the reverse AKL-GRU-EZE-AKL working well for the airline.

I don't know if a 777 can make GRU-AKL westbound with the winds. That is looking at 7500 miles but 15 hours in the air with winds.
 
a380787
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:00 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 21):
I don't know if a 777 can make GRU-AKL westbound with the winds. That is looking at 7500 miles but 15 hours in the air with winds.

The longest 77E route currently flown is 8065mi great circle distance, so GRU-AKL should be fine if cargo load is not too heavy
 
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notaxonrotax
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:04 pm

Guayaquil?

One can hope....

No Tax On Rotax
 
steex
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:08 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 15):
I was referring to the westbound, ORD-AKL leg. If the a/c gets stuck idling on a taxiway during a ground-stop or re-routed leaving ORD, the last chance for a refueling stop, if necessary, would be in the first few hours of the flight.

Assuming ORD-AKL is flown remotely near the great circle route, diverting to PPT wouldn't be much of a course deviation in the event that they find themselves low on fuel during the Pacific crossing. If a given flight is routed such that PPT is further away, then APW becomes closer (as does NAN). All of those fields are served by NZ, so it shouldn't be too much of a logistical headache if they need to handle the occasional diversion.

That doesn't answer bigger questions of overall viability, but if they're stretching their equipment to the max, they should still have reasonable alternates en route to AKL.
 
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United787
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:13 pm

Being a life long Chicagoan, I would love to see NZ at ORD but I just don't see it... IAH makes the most sense since it has more connections to the eastern US than LAX and SFO but also offers a ton of connections to Mexico, Central America, something ORD can't offer... IAH would be a great compliment to LIM since all of Latin America would be covered really well... I am done preaching...
 
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mariner
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:17 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 7):
ORD is going to be a long haul! Thunderstorm re-routes/deviations in the summer might require some creative planning.

They're not announcing ORD.

That rumour is presently all speculation by some over-enthusiastic observers.

mariner
 
airevents
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:22 pm

Don´t forget Panama City. While it is not exactly South America, it has become a major hub and the airport has been very successful in luring new carriers there. There have been negotiations with Air NZ, that much is for sure.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 22):

The longest 77E route currently flown is 8065mi great circle distance, so GRU-AKL should be fine if cargo load is not too heavy

The problem in the Southern Hemisphere is that GRU-AKL would be going directly against the southern hemisphere jetstream and polar routes over Antarctica are not allowed. An 8,000 mile polar route over the north pole like EWR-HKG doesn't have to contend with the jetstream. Since EWR-HKG is almost exclusively north-south, winds don't matter. GRU-AKL could face strong winds. EWR-HKG is mostly ETOPS 120. The amount of fuel required for ETOPS 330 since there is no fuel stop diversion airport option GRU-AKL could cause weight restrictions.
 
jfk777
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:35 pm

IT would have to be a city in the west coast of South America, Panama City, Lima and Santiago make sense. EZE could happen too. GRU is too far east.
 
a380787
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:40 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 28):

The problem in the Southern Hemisphere is that GRU-AKL would be going directly against the southern hemisphere jetstream and polar routes over Antarctica are not allowed. An 8,000 mile polar route over the north pole like EWR-HKG doesn't have to contend with the jetstream. Since EWR-HKG is almost exclusively north-south, winds don't matter. GRU-AKL could face strong winds. EWR-HKG is mostly ETOPS 120. The amount of fuel required for ETOPS 330 since there is no fuel stop diversion airport option GRU-AKL could cause weight restrictions.

if you graph it out at gcmap.com, AKL-GRU isn't anywhere near touching Antartica. Weight restrictions (which occurs on many flights) is fine if it's compensated by stealing some higher paying business traveler who values the nonstop (or 1-stop from places like BNE and MEL).

If you look at the entire Southern America to AKL map, only SCL and LIM are realistic options with full payload. And in NZ's case, LIM makes a lot more sense even though it's a longer flight.
 
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United787
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting airevents (Reply 27):
Don´t forget Panama City. While it is not exactly South America, it has become a major hub and the airport has been very successful in luring new carriers there. There have been negotiations with Air NZ, that much is for sure.

Agreed
 
zkncj
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:45 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 28):
The problem in the Southern Hemisphere is that GRU-AKL would be going directly against the southern hemisphere jetstream and polar routes over Antarctica are not allowed. An 8,000 mile polar route over the north pole like EWR-HKG doesn't have to contend with the jetstream

With 330, it should be doable. If LAN is switching AKL-SCL to an 788 in April, which is currently an 343 on an polar route.
 
byronicle6
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:52 pm

The article strongly leans towards Argentina and EZE. As aerorobnz mentioned in a different thread, a code share with LA makes a lot of sense with LA flying SCL-AKL-SYD and NZ AKL-EZE with connections from the rest of Australia and Asia which can help feed not only its own EZE flights but also LA's SCL flight
 
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Kiwirob
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:52 pm

 
roseflyer
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:55 pm

Quoting zkncj (Reply 32):
Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 28):
The problem in the Southern Hemisphere is that GRU-AKL would be going directly against the southern hemisphere jetstream and polar routes over Antarctica are not allowed. An 8,000 mile polar route over the north pole like EWR-HKG doesn't have to contend with the jetstream

With 330, it should be doable. If LAN is switching AKL-SCL to an 788 in April, which is currently an 343 on an polar route.

It isn't ETOPS that is the problem, it is range. ETOPS 330 is going to require quite a bit of extra fuel to be carried. GRU-AKL is 1500 miles longer than SCL-AKL and is going straight into the jetstream.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 30):

if you graph it out at gcmap.com, AKL-GRU isn't anywhere near touching Antartica. Weight restrictions (which occurs on many flights) is fine if it's compensated by stealing some higher paying business traveler who values the nonstop (or 1-stop from places like BNE and MEL).

I am just saying that weight restrictions could hurt viability with the 777-200ER. There is not a whole lot of high yielding business traffic between AKL and GRU. If they want to fly it, the 77W or 789 would do better based on range if they meet the ETOPS requirement for 787.
 
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NZ107
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 7:59 pm

http://www.ausbt.com.au/air-new-zeal...-begin-direct-flights-to-argentina

So EZE, partly interesting but it fills the gap left by AR quite nicely.

3x weekly, 772, beginning Dec 15. Codesharing with AR for connections ex-EZE.

[Edited 2014-12-11 12:06:23]
 
zkncj
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:01 pm

 
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United787
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:08 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 36):
So EZE, partly interesting but it fills the gap left by AR quite nicely

Congratulations to NZ, AKL, EZE, and AR! I am sure they will be able to do better on the route than AR did. Glad to see a *Alliance Oceania to South America route, historic day!

IMHO, this announcement makes IAH more viable for it's 1-stop connections to Mexico, Central America and Colombia...
 
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mariner
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:11 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 36):
So EZE, partly interesting but it fills the gap left by AR quite nicely.

3x weekly, 772, beginning Dec 15. Codesharing with AR for connections ex-EZE.

Hopefully, a bunch of f/a's will be learning Spanish and/or they'll take on some Argentinian f/a's.

mariner
 
a380787
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:18 pm

Quoting United787 (Reply 38):
Quoting NZ107 (Reply 36):
So EZE, partly interesting but it fills the gap left by AR quite nicely

Congratulations to NZ, AKL, EZE, and AR! I am sure they will be able to do better on the route than AR did. Glad to see a *Alliance Oceania to South America route, historic day!
Quoting NZ107 (Reply 36):
So EZE, partly interesting but it fills the gap left by AR quite nicely.

It's like musical chairs in southern pacific apparently

LA only does 1-stop to SYD, so QF launched SCL nonstop ... QF cancelled EZE nonstop, or AR stepped in to replace it ... AR cancelled the AKL stop, and now NZ does it

After all this switcharoo, total carriers stayed constant (3) and total destinations also stayed constant (SYD/AKL on the Oceania side, SCL/EZE on the LatAm side). As if nothing changed.
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 8:26 pm

In the NZ media release, CEO Christopher Luxon says...

Quote:
"Buenos Aires is the most popular tourist city in South America and is a perfect stepping stone for those who then want to explore the country, or continent, further."

I think he may find that Rio de Janeiro may have a pretty good claim on that title.

And speaking of Brazil, am interested to see that it will be AR providing onward connex to Brazil and other points in South America rather than *alliance partners Azul and Avianca Brasil, and Avianca. Perhaps the only way NZ could secure this route with adequate connections at EZE was to cut a deal with Argentina's state owned carrier rather than foreign privately owned ones (Cristina de Kirchner and her policy of nationalising etc).

Anyhow, very excited for this route. NZ will be a great addition to EZE with its reputation for quality and on time etc.

BTW, what's AR's offering from EZE in terms of flights to other South American ports like GRU, GIG, LIM, SCL, BOG etc? Or are they better out of AEP?

[Edited 2014-12-11 13:04:02]
 
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 9:19 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 41):
BTW, what's AR's offering from EZE in terms of flights to other South American ports like GRU, GIG, LIM, SCL, BOG etc? Or are they better out of AEP?

go into Flightstats and do a search by Airport (EZE) for in and outbound flights . This will give you an idea of the options.
 
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NZ107
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:04 pm

How long does it take to get to ETOPS 330 from 240? Didn't NZ just get certification for ETOPS 240?
 
Motorhussy
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 10:18 pm

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 42):
lightstats and do a search by Airport (EZE) for in and outbound flights .

Have just done so and found there are good amounts of regional South American flights offered by AR, plus domestic Argentinian ones too. Picking a random day, there are three to GRU, two to GIG, one each to SCL, LIM, CCS, ASU, MVD, VVI, CNF, POA and numerous others.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:14 pm

Quoting NZ107 (Reply 43):

How long does it take to get to ETOPS 330 from 240? Didn't NZ just get certification for ETOPS 240?

NZ is considered to be the world leader in ETOPS/EDTO operations (since most of its international operations are ETOPS/EDTO it has either the most or close to the most experience operating this way), so they would likely be one of the first to implement these.
 
xiaotung
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:27 pm

Quoting motorhussy (Reply 44):
Have just done so and found there are good amounts of regional South American flights offered by AR, plus domestic Argentinian ones too. Picking a random day, there are three to GRU, two to GIG, one each to SCL, LIM, CCS, ASU, MVD, VVI, CNF, POA and numerous others.

I guess NZ wouldn't have picked Brazil even if JJ were still in *A. I just hope Rugby didn't have much to do with the decision making.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:34 pm

Quoting xiaotung (Reply 46):
I guess NZ wouldn't have picked Brazil even if JJ were still in *A. I just hope Rugby didn't have much to do with the decision making.

Rugby probably helped. But it probably came down to cost (Brazil becomes an ULH flight where you are carrying a lot of fuel to carry a lot of fuel and would likely be quite restricted in payload).
Also AR will have good connections and there is nothing to stop NZ in future code-sharing on some of the other *A airlines from EZE.
 
SCQ83
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:51 pm

Could they sell flights to Europe? I just checked and AKL-EZE-MAD is 12674 mi VS AKL-SYD-DXB-MAD at 12341 mi.
 
flyjetstar
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RE: Air NZ Announces South America Route

Thu Dec 11, 2014 11:55 pm

Do we have any idea of schedule? Similar to LA from Santiago?

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