Russian Mil Plane Nearly Collides With SAS At CPH

stlAV8R · Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:33 pm

I haven't seen this posted yet. Anyone else know anything about this?

http://www.thelocal.dk/20141213/cope...collides-with-russian-military-jet

Sooner787 · Sat Dec 13, 2014 9:42 pm

I think Russia's decided they've had enough of $60 bbl oil,

so starting some "sheet" somewhere is the best way to bump that price back up

teme82 · Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:12 am

There have been some issues with those "invisible" flights in the Gulf of Finland. The Finish ATC had to order some planes to do course change because some Russian military plane flying near by. Finnish ATC works together with the FAF so they have good coverage of the area and they track on radar those "invisible" flights.

SAS A340 · Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:35 am

The combination of Rasputin (vodka) and flying is a tradition that Russia has had for a long time ..... just a little embarrassing to see them flying around up there in the belief that no one sees them

Wayfarer515 · Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:24 am

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 3):

The combination of Rasputin (vodka) and flying is a tradition that Russia has had for a long time ..... just a little embarrassing to see them flying around up there in the belief that no one sees them

So if everybody sees them, why the fuss about them not using their transponders? I don't think they are dumb enough to think nobody can see their TU-95's and MIG-31's.

It guess it will be newsworthy when Sweden complains about seeing their PAK-FA's, but good luck with that.

a320fan · Sun Dec 14, 2014 6:48 am

Sad to see this happen again. I remember a very similar incident back in March.

These displays of aggression by Russia are going to be very difficult to stop. You could shoot down their jets but that would just lead to a lot of trouble, most likely banned overflights for eu airlines and quite possibly more violent retribution from Russia. I think there is no doubt that we are in the early stages of another Cold War.

pylon101 · Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:21 am

The Russian MoD said there was 70 km distance between the planes.
MSM make me bored. The same and again.

SAS A340 · Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:16 am

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 4):
So if everybody sees them, why the fuss about them not using their transponders? I

I never said that everybody can see them,did i? And whats the Point of NOT having their transponders ON in an airspace full of civil airliners when you only are invissible to just civil airliners?

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 4):
It guess it will be newsworthy when Sweden complains about seeing their PAK-FA'

That will take a few years

HELyes · Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:17 am

Quoting teme82 (Reply 2):

Yes those Russian ghost planes give headache also to the Finnish ATC. On Wedneysday civilian aircraft were directed away from the "invisible" Russian military planes flying between Russia and it's enclave Kalinigrad.

In August ATC warned Russian military Antonov 72 off from entering Finnish air space without permission, however the pilot insisted that his plane belonged to Aeroflot...

In Swedish:
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19813500.ab

[Edited 2014-12-14 00:45:07]

nasula · Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:23 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 6):

Do you seriously believe the Russian MoD would be truthful on this or the individual pilot ror that matter?

There's too much proven evidence from multiple different independent sources and separate events to prove the Russian MoD wrong.

This is traditional russian government's childish macho-posturing. They think they make themselves appear manly and strong whereas they really make themselves appear immature, childish and extremely insecure. Typically this phase in life ends after a male's teenage years. Some though, never grow up beyond that and sadly some of them reach positions of power.

The truly sad part of this macho-bs is that it will likely kill another planeful of innocent civilians at some point only because some honcho thinks he needs respect and that macho-flexing brings that. The rest of the world just looks in bewilderment how childish can a grown man in power be.

PlanesNTrains · Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:47 am

Quoting nasula (Reply 9):
Do you seriously believe the Russian MoD would be truthful on this or the individual pilot ror that matter?

Uh....yes, he does.

I'm curious if this is normal with other nations as well? (No transponders, that is)

-Dave

SAS A340 · Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:51 am

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 6):
The Russian MoD said there was 70 km distance between the planes.

Not thanks to the Russian crew and the correct distance was 18 miles or 25 km.. the incident in Mars ended up with only 90meters apart...that,s a second or two?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc6UoTFOqbI

[Edited 2014-12-14 00:52:20]

[Edited 2014-12-14 01:24:12]

glideslope · Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:30 am

So sad to see the Russians behaving with such a "Gangster" mentality. The pax on these commercial flights have no cards in this game.

ltbewr · Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:25 pm

It's sad to see this kind of conflict as it could lead to a tragic incident that neither country wants. Some form of sanctions on Russia would just lead to escalating rounds of them resulting in economic conflicts that hurt both sides. Hopefully some in the Russian military and political leadership will recognize that these behaviors are a bad idea and back off before there are dead people.

OV735 · Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:33 pm

There is a constant flow of Russian military air traffic between different locations in mainland Russia, and the Kaliningrad enclave. Il-76, Tu-134, Il-20, Tu-22M, you name it. These flights fly over St Petersburg and then along the neutral waters between Finland and Estonia, and then along the Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian borders southbound to Kaliningrad (and vice versa to get back to mainland).

Most of the times the flights have operational transponders and valid flight plans, but every now and then there'll be a flight with no transponder. The problem is, they normally cruise on a track and altitude that puts them at a conflict risk with southbound departures from Helsinki. What further complicates the problem is the lack of accurate altitude information provided by the primary radar.

Thanks to excellent international civilian/military cooperation the risk of an actual collision is minimal.

pvjin · Sun Dec 14, 2014 12:54 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 6):

Yes comrade Pylon, those western imperialists are clearly lying, peace loving Russian military pilots have never been guilty of harassing civilian traffic nor have they violated foreign airspaces like the western aggressors do. Thankfully Russian people don't have to see such propaganda as they have access to completely independent, neutral and objective state run Russian media.

[Edited 2014-12-14 04:55:11]

AirlineCritic · Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:18 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
Yes comrade Pylon, those western imperialists are clearly lying, peace loving Russian military pilots have never been guilty of harassing civilian traffic nor have they violated foreign airspaces like the western aggressors do. Thankfully Russian people don't have to see such propaganda as they have access to completely independent, neutral and objective state run Russian media.

Back to reality.

I think this is a clear case of irresponsible behaviour that all peaceful aviation lovers should consider risky.

FlyingSicilian · Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:50 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 6):
The Russian MoD said there was 70 km distance between the planes.

haha thanks that was a good one. I needed some humour in my day.

There are no Rus in Ukraine either LOL
Keep the hits coming.

AirPacific747 · Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:49 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 6):

But the worst part is you trust what's in your media no questions asked.

JetBuddy · Sun Dec 14, 2014 2:53 pm

Both NATO and Russia sometimes fly military missions with transponders turned off. But NATO never does that in highly congested civilian airspace. The problem here is that the Russians have deliberately been trying to provoke a response from Western military for a long time. Near collisions with Norwegian F-16s, near collisions with Swedish survaillance aircraft, flying 8 ship formations of nuclear bombers and the most high tech fighter escort aircraft without any transponders turned on down the Norwegian coastline two days in a row, sending submarines into the Stockholm skjærgård, and close encounters with civilian airliners multiple times. And then of course the shooting down of a civilian airliner and invasion of Crimea and eastern Ukraine.

They're not trying to start a new cold war, they're trying to provoke the west to respond militarily. If that happens, it helps Putin stay in power even longer, because he's trying to build an image of the west as Russia's enemies.. and that he's the right man to lead the Russians. Just my two cents.

PanAm1971 · Sun Dec 14, 2014 3:55 pm

This entire conflict has, like a plane crash, been a series of accidents and failures of judgment on all sides. Hopefully, this conflict will be brought to a close very soon. I've been to Russia and Belarus and have many friends from all over the region. I enjoy the posts of our Russian members and hope we are not descending into a time when we would not be able to see their posts.

It is unacceptable to put planeloads of civilians at risk... even if it is "legal". I hope our Russian friends understand that. One of the unfortunate results of the MH17 downing may be that some officials in the Russian government don't believe there would be severe consequences from another civilian airliner going down. That is a misjudgment of the worst sort.... and very dangerous.

OV735 · Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 pm

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 20):
This entire conflict has, like a plane crash, been a series of accidents and failures of judgment on all sides. Hopefully, this conflict will be brought to a close very soon.

The Russian military has been conducting such flights for years. True, they have certainly upped the frequencies, which, together with the current political situation and the downing of MH17, has probably led to more press coverage. But the phenomenon of 'invisible' Russian mil planes in civilian airspace is way older than the new cold war.

DDR · Sun Dec 14, 2014 5:50 pm

While this type of behavior can be very dangerous, I do not think any Russian pilot would allow a collision to happen. They can still see the other traffic yes? I think they have been told to lurk around but at the end of the day the pilot is a human being and would not want to kill innocent civilians.

Anyway, this is my hope. Of course the past Soviet behavior in these matters is not promising.

PlanesNTrains · Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:10 pm

Quoting DDR (Reply 22):
I think they have been told to lurk around but at the end of the day the pilot is a human being and would not want to kill innocent civilians.

Well, or themselves.

-Dave

rampbro · Sun Dec 14, 2014 9:23 pm

Quoting OV735 (Reply 21):

If by 'upped the frequencies' you mean the number of these flights has gone up exponentially, you are correct. What we are seeing is an escalation of force back up to CW levels. It is a new phenomenon in the sense that the post-Soviet Russian regime hasn't engaged in this activity in this volume before.

Quoting DDR (Reply 22):
at the end of the day the pilot is a human being and would not want to kill innocent civilians

The 269 dead on KA 007 beg to differ.

Wayfarer515 · Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:24 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 24):
The 269 dead on KA 007 beg to differ.

He did not shoot down innocent civilians on purpose, he shot down to what his knowledge was an unidentified aircraft flying through Soviet airspace. He just did what he was trained to do. I even seem to recall he fired some tracers before and received no indication whatsoever from the KAL pilots, which in my point of view share much of the blame for the outcome of this accident.

So no, not even the bad Russians want to kill innocent civilians.
Stop the jingoism.

blueflyer · Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:54 pm

Quoting rampbro (Reply 24):
The 269 dead on KA 007 beg to differ.

No one is talking about a Russian jet fighter intentionally shooting at an airliner, much less in international space, but about an inadvertent collision with a civilian aircraft.

DDR · Sun Dec 14, 2014 10:57 pm

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 25):

Exactly! The Soviet Shooting down of Korean 007 was no less of a tragic mistake than the U.S. Navy shooting down an Iran Air plane full of civilians. Neither were intentional.

prebennorholm · Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:47 pm

Quoting pylon101 (Reply 6):
The Russian MoD said there was 70 km distance between the planes.

Yes, Russian MoD said exactly that. And they were lying as usual.

But the main issue is of course that they fool around in heavily congested air space without transponder. It is so foolish that it cannot be described.

Quoting PanAm1971 (Reply 20):
I've been to Russia and Belarus and have many friends from all over the region.

You are right. There are so many fine individuals in Russia. And it is so sad for them that their country is acting in such backward manners.

Please join me in using every opportunity telling them how badly they need to elect a less foolish leadership.

garpd · Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:35 am

Russian military aircraft are constantly pushing boundaries. I'm fairly certain it is all very, very deliberate and calculated.
They are gathering intelligence, monitoring response times, etc. They don't give a rats ass if civilian aircraft get in the way. They'll just plane the civilian aircraft every time.

Almost every other day, the RAF intercept one of their aircraft skirting our airspace.

lucce · Mon Dec 15, 2014 9:36 am

As phenomena this is nothing new, at least in Finnish perspective this problem has existed since the Baltic states became independent and flights to Kaliningrad had to use the Gulf of Finland. Now these things are just brought to public. There are actually reports of Russian fighter pilots shaking their fists at Finnish fighters that were identifying them. I think that speaks volumes about the attitude of Russian air force.

Quoting DDR (Reply 27):
Exactly! The Soviet Shooting down of Korean 007 was no less of a tragic mistake than the U.S. Navy shooting down an Iran Air plane full of civilians. Neither were intentional.

Well, the Iran Air flight was flying toward the ship in a war zone and was suspected of being an attack aircraft. KAL 007 was suspected of being a reconnaissance aircraft (that poses no immediate danger) and didn't appear to be hostile towards the fighters. There is a difference. I'm not saying that neither one was right but the philosophy behind them is completely different.

soyuzavia · Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:53 am

Nice to see that airliners.net forums are still the same as ever, with the usual uniformed inherent Russophobia. The only thing I can say is that opening this thread didn't fail to disappoint.

http://rt.com/news/214259-russian-aircraft-incident-deception/ will give some detail on the nonsense that is spouted by the military in countries such as Sweden, is aired as fact in MSM and believed by the public which has the attention span of a gnat.

OV735 · Mon Dec 15, 2014 12:14 pm

Quoting soyuzavia (Reply 31):
Nice to see that airliners.net forums are still the same as ever, with the usual uniformed inherent Russophobia. The only thing I can say is that opening this thread didn't fail to disappoint.

http://rt.com/news/214259-russian-aircraft-incident-deception/ will give some detail on the nonsense that is spouted by the military in countries such as Sweden, is aired as fact in MSM and believed by the public which has the attention span of a gnat.

I doubt anyone is being russophobic, certainly not me. People are weary of the fascist tendencies of the Putin regime. And RT is one of the instruments of that regime, so quoting that as the source of objective information is as good as quoting Selma Lagerlöf to prove humans can fly on geese.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 28):
You are right. There are so many fine individuals in Russia. And it is so sad for them that their country is acting in such backward manners.

Please join me in using every opportunity telling them how badly they need to elect a less foolish leadership.

30989 · Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:11 pm

If you believe Russia Today, you also believe Goebbels.

hilram · Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:51 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 28):
Please join me in using every opportunity telling them how badly they need to elect a less foolish leadership.

Easier said than done. Russia has not had a free, untampered election since Putin's first win. From then on, every election has been rigged. For example: Last election, in the region of Chechnya (where Putin is probably the most hated man alive) he alledegely won 98% of the votes! The corruption and fraud is blatantly in the open, but the russian people love him just the same. After all, he gave them a new armed conflict. And that spiked his popularity further!

AirPacific747 · Mon Dec 15, 2014 2:16 pm

Quoting soyuzavia (Reply 31):

Nice to see that airliners.net forums are still the same as ever, with the usual uniformed inherent Russophobia.

I wonder how Russians would react to foreign military aircraft threatening their civilian aircraft and breaching the Russian airspace boundaries? As if Russophobia appeared out of nowhere. The Russians keep p****** off all other countries, where do you expect to find friends with this behaviour?

Rdh3e · Mon Dec 15, 2014 3:03 pm

Quoting soyuzavia (Reply 31):
Nice to see that airliners.net forums are still the same as ever, with the usual uniformed inherent Russophobia.

"RT is a Russian state-funded cable and satellite television channel directed to audiences outside of the Russian Federation."

It's a foreign propaganda machine.

soyuzavia · Mon Dec 15, 2014 4:21 pm

I see my point was somewhat proven in the replies. The information itself it not debunked but the source itself is attacked. *Yawn* I also understand that airliners.net mods take a heavy hand in renaming misleading threads. Why not this one?

And especially given this information which I purposely withheld, hoping that someone would search it out themselves and post it.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...-denies-miss-baltic-skies-27586929

Quote:
"This has been blown out of all proportion, completely," SAS spokesman Knut Morten Johansen said. "It wasn't even an incident." He said there was no breach "because the safety distance between aircraft hadn't been exceeded."

So who's the one spreading propaganda here? Especially as NATO does EXACTLY the same thing.

SAS A340 · Mon Dec 15, 2014 5:01 pm

We'll just have to hope that the ATC continues to do a good job and steer away the civilian traffic so these Russian military planes can wobble around in the sky without risking hitting civilian Airtraffic as in March when a Russian plane flying without transponders came within 100 meters (300 feet) of another SAS plane that had taken off from Copenhagen.

gabrielchew · Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:11 pm

Quoting soyuzavia (Reply 31):
Nice to see that airliners.net forums are still the same as ever, with the usual uniformed inherent Russophobia. The only thing I can say is that opening this thread didn't fail to disappoint.

http://rt.com/news/214259-russian-aircraft-incident-deception/ will give some detail on the nonsense that is spouted by the military in countries such as Sweden, is aired as fact in MSM and believed by the public which has the attention span of a gnat.

Russia Today is not a reliable source of infomation for anything other than research into modern day propganda.

OV735 · Mon Dec 15, 2014 10:29 pm

Quoting soyuzavia (Reply 37):
I see my point was somewhat proven in the replies. The information itself it not debunked but the source itself is attacked. *Yawn* I also understand that airliners.net mods take a heavy hand in renaming misleading threads. Why not this one?

If you know a watch is broken, you do not check it for time, even if it does show the correct time twice a day.

True, perhaps in this instance the aircraft were not as close as to pose any actual danger to safety and cause a huge media outcry. Yet, the continuity of such operations on behalf of the Russian military does entail the risk of close encounters, as already proven by the incident in March.

Quoting soyuzavia (Reply 37):
So who's the one spreading propaganda here? Especially as NATO does EXACTLY the same thing.

In airspace controlled by military, military aircraft do not need to adhere to ICAO and local civilian regulations, but in civilian airspace those regulations are followed, at least in this neck of the woods. This includes the use of a transponder, a filed flight plan and two-way radio comms in controlled airspace. The only ones peeing in the pool are the Russian Air Force and Navy aircraft shuttling between Kaliningrad and the mainland.

Wayfarer515 · Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:30 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 35):
I wonder how Russians would react to foreign military aircraft threatening their civilian aircraft and breaching the Russian airspace boundaries? As if Russophobia appeared out of nowhere. The Russians keep p****** off all other countries, where do you expect to find friends with this behaviour?

What a dumb question to ask, but I guess you never heard of the covert ops. the USA made during the Cold War, and we are not talking about flying over international airspace here, they blatantly crossed Russian territory with the U-2 flights. That was until an SA-2 put things in order by shooting down the U-2 of Francis Gary Powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident

So in the worst case scenario, the Russians learned these antics from the USA, but I guess no one will claim the gringos are bad guys because of this.

Are these flights dangerous to civilian airliners? Probably.
Are they being blown out of proportion because it is Russia and not some Western country? Most defnitely.

soyuzavia · Tue Dec 16, 2014 8:30 am

Quoting gabrielchew (Reply 39):
Russia Today is not a reliable source of infomation for anything other than research into modern day propganda.

Then you are also saying that Reuters is not a reliable source, given both sources gave essentially the same information.

The fact of the matter is, it's all about points of view. No point of view, generally, is incorrect. It's simply how one looks at the world, and how far one is willing to stretch the truth in order to (mis)inform the public. One should never get their information from any one source, but from a variety of sources. If you rely solely on one source or subset of sources for your information, then you are only ever going to get one side of the story.

FYI: the same information on RT was published in Kommersant, Izvestia, RIA Novosti, Vedomosti; but in Russian. The RT link was used solely because it is in English and for the benefit of the vast majority of people who would frequent the forums.

Wayfarer515, it's not quite fair to say it's the US who was the first. Who knows who was the first nation to violate the actual airspace of another country. All countries have done it at one time or another, and they will continue to do so. The only real recent violation of actual airspace in recent times is the USAF AWACS (???) which violated Swedish airspace in order to "escape" a Russian "bogey".

30989 · Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:23 am

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 35):
The Russians keep p****** off all other countries, where do you expect to find friends with this behaviour?

Quoting soyuzavia (Reply 42):

FYI: the same information on RT was published in Kommersant, Izvestia, RIA Novosti, Vedomosti; but in Russian.

"Free" russian press. In the 1930s, you could also read the same information in all german newspapers. Free press was abolished before.

Well lets face it: Foxnews, Bild and other western media also post bullshit once in a while. You do not get to jail, however, by listening to different information, and you are free to publish something else. Critical press and freedom of speech are NOT subject to negotiations.

And contrary to what the russian propaganda says, Germany and the rest of Europe are actually NOT interested in threatening russia or hurting russia.

CPH-R · Tue Dec 16, 2014 9:56 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 44):
And contrary to what the russian propaganda says, Germany and the rest of Europe are actually NOT interested in threatening russia or hurting russia.

The Russian PoV is of course that NATO are slowly expanding eastwards, and with the Ukrainian president apparently wanting a referendum on them joining NATO as well, they will be right up against Russias borders.

soyuzavia · Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:30 am

Quoting TheSonntag (Reply 44):
"Free" russian press. In the 1930s, you could also read the same information in all german newspapers. Free press was abolished before.

Godwin's law in action right there.

This is getting off-topic somewhat, but I suggest you all read http://www.discovery.org/scripts/vie...nload.php?command=download&id=1098 (10 Western media stereotypes about Russia). This is as true today as it was a few years ago when it was published.

Quote:
Russian media isn’t free

“Putin administration has grown uglier: the media is now—with a few embattled exceptions in print and on the Internet—
entirely under state control.” (“Meet the Chief Exec of Kremlin Inc ...” by Nick Paton Walsh; The Guardian; July 6, 2005)

Far from simply affirming the government’s actions, many Russian media outlets are openly critical of the Kremlin—and some refuse to acknowledge any positive changes achieved in the last few years. There are approximately 1,100 TV channels, 670 radio stations and 50,000 newspapers in Russia. Independent Internet media are very popular where Internet access is available. Only 20 percent of the population gets its information from state-owned media, with the majority of Russian TV-viewers preferring private programming and entertainment. In Russia, Western TV news channels such as CNN, FOX, BBC, Euronews, and others are widely available and often freely broadcast.

But to bring it back on topic here, there is nothing to refute the information from the Russians that NATO does not do the same thing (turning off transponders) when engaging in exercises; and yes, they too operate in civilian corridors.

The Russophobia here is unbelievable.

Dahlgardo · Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:01 am

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 45):
The Russian PoV is of course that NATO are slowly expanding eastwards, and with the Ukrainian president apparently wanting a referendum on them joining NATO as well, they will be right up against Russias borders.

Too bad for Putin then.
Free and democratic countries should be able to decide for themselves which alliances they want to belong to.
Who are the russians to decide for other countries. That is a logic from the cold war.

As for the "invisible" military flights into congested civil airspace, this is really irresponsible and unnecessary behavior no matter who does it.
It will cost lives some day, and for no good reason.

AirPacific747 · Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:08 pm

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 41):
What a dumb question to ask, but I guess you never heard of the covert ops. the USA made during the Cold War, and we are not talking about flying over international airspace here, they blatantly crossed Russian territory with the U-2 flights. That was until an SA-2 put things in order by shooting down the U-2 of Francis Gary Powers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_U-2_incident

What a foolish comment to make. You don't see the other countries whining about how they can't understand the whole world is against them when they know they are doing something illegal.

Quoting soyuzavia (Reply 45):
The Russophobia here is unbelievable.

You wonder why Yeah sure

[Edited 2014-12-16 05:10:03]

30989 · Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:18 pm

Quoting soyuzavia (Reply 45):
This is as true today as it was a few years ago when it was published.

Unfortunately, a friend of mine visited Russia some years ago, and he never, at no other place (having visited the US, China, South America and other places) met so much unfriendlyness and violence before. Quite a shame, because my father had a lot to do with russian soldiers after the end of cold war, and usually met civilised, nice people.

Putin better gets solved his own problems before annyoing the rest of Europe.

FlyingSicilian · Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:27 pm

Quoting Wayfarer515 (Reply 41):
So in the worst case scenario, the Russians learned these antics from the USA, but I guess no one will claim the gringos are bad guys because of this.

You do know Russian are gringos too right?

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