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MAH4546
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Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:41 am

DOT ruled today that Delta's seasonal/minimal use of it's Seattle-Haneda is not in the public interest, and the slot is now up for grabs. Applications are due January 5th. DOT stated that "the public interest requires a fresh examination of whether the best use of the Seattle-Haneda opportunity is to allow Delta to retain the slot pair for Seattle-Haneda service, or whether the public interest would be better served by reallocating the slot pair for service from another US city by another US carrier or by Delta."

AA will apply for LAXHND; Delta will obviously apply for SEAHND and Hawaiian will likely apply for KOAHND (or maybe a second HNLHND?). Maybe UA will throw something in, too.

Ruling:

http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDetail;D=DOT-OST-2010-0018-0395
a.
 
commavia
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:45 am

So it appears Delta actually faces the real prospect of losing the authority. I must admit - I never actually thought this would get this far. Wow.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:47 am

why would DL reapply ? DOT has just ruled that DL can't keep their promises, so it would be hugely against DL's favor before the application process even began

they'll probably give it to AA, but who knows if it'll be profitable at all (other posts have shown DL's LAX-HND service in only mid 70s load factor)
 
MAH4546
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:52 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
So it appears Delta actually faces the real prospect of losing the authority. I must admit - I never actually thought this would get this far. Wow.

For all intents and purposes, Delta has lost the authority. It can continue flying SEAHND in the interim, but it now must reapply for SEAHND and argue why SEAHND should be chosen over competing applications. It has no control over the future of the slot, that is entirely in DOT's hands now. DOT could very well be convinced, though, that Delta should keep the slot.
a.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:01 am

I skimmed through the doc, and I think AA might have argued against their own case. They reminded the DOT that there are already 6 airlines flying LAX-Tokyo, and they want to add more to the competition ? LAX-HND itself already has 2 airlines, so it's not like its underserved waiting for low fares to arrive.

AA should consider doing DFW-HND.... The case might be stronger (although the slot times are definitely weaker)
 
roseflyer
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:04 am

I still think the only profitable option with that slot would be HNL-HND or GUM-HND.
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B737900ER
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:10 am

I would love to see GUM-HND. Would UA be able to turn its inbound SFO to GUM and it's inbound GUM to SFO?
 
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enilria
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:24 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
So it appears Delta actually faces the real prospect of losing the authority. I must admit - I never actually thought this would get this far. Wow.
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 2):
why would DL reapply ? DOT has just ruled that DL can't keep their promises, so it would be hugely against DL's favor before the application process even began

They will reapply as they always do and probably promise never to do it again...oops we just did it again...but after this we super-promise pinky-swear...oops we did it again...but that was the absolute last time, we were just unable to follow our originally promised business plan because of $100 oil...oops we did it again.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:29 am

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):

If I didn't know better I would've thought delta write song names and lyrics for Britney ....
 
airmailer
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:38 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 3):
For all intents and purposes, Delta has lost the authority. It can continue flying SEAHND in the interim, but it now must reapply for SEAHND and argue why SEAHND should be chosen over competing applications.

Very happy to see the DOT taking this action. DL's non-flights certainly weren't benefiting me, and I was hoping to go to Tokyo this winter.

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 2):
Quoting Mah4546 (Reply 3):
DOT could very well be convinced, though, that Delta should keep the slot.

If DL hopes to keep the slot I think they should restart SEA-HND flights by the end of the week. And if they don't, DOT should hand the slot pair over to an airline which will actually use them.
 
jfk777
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:44 am

The issue with some the flights to HND is he awful times the slots are good for, 2200-0700. Why would the US Government ever agree to the night time slots ? They are good fro Hawaii but not much else. From the mainland they have been dogs. They would be valuable, maybe more then a slots at LHR, if US airlines had daytime slots.
 
uberflieger
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:52 am

Quoting jfk777 (Reply 10):
The issue with some the flights to HND is he awful times

Something Delta was well aware of, when they applied for SEA-HND.  
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:58 am

It's interesting that now two of DL's new SEA international routes have failed - KIX and HND. We can probably expect DL to try TPE and have it work, but how much more expansion can DL take on at SEA?

Are any other DL SEA routes doing poorly or in danger of failing?
 
incitatus
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:14 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
Are any other DL SEA routes doing poorly or in danger of failing?

SEA is the best location in the US for an Asia gateway. Eventually it will work for DL.

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
we super-promise pinky-swear...oops we did it again...but that was the absolute last time,

Right on! I wouldn't be surprised to see this exact language in the filing.  
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jetblue1965
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:26 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 13):

SEA is only good geographically for certain areas. For anyone in eastern time zone, there is no geographic advantage of picking SEA-Asia over ORD DTW EWR.

And it has the lowest O&D of the 3 west coast hubs while still has foreign competition that DL has to deal with (DTW and DFW has very very few East Asian carriers)
 
Thomaas
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:26 am

I would like to see UA bid for either ORD-HND or EWR-HND.
 
ASA
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:30 am

What if DL applies for BOS-HND?
Why should JL have all the fun and $$?
Would that work as a competitive proposal?
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:34 am

Quoting ASA (Reply 16):

DL can, and it's called kamikaze

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 15):

UA will probably submit a GUM application for fun. But regarding mainland US, my bet is that they would wait till SFO-HND matures before deciding on more, esp after seeing all the horrors that DL and AA went through at JFK DTW SEA.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:39 am

Maybe this is the subject of the big AS meeting is to announce their secret 787 order and TPAC expansion.   

Jokes aside, I think EWR-HND could work, even though AA failed on JFK-HND, this is definately a 787 route.
For AA I think DFW-HND is their best shot.
And DL shouldn't even be allowed this route because they kept fumbling around with it for years and it still can't work for them.
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klwright69
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:43 am

Yes, what US carriers from the mainland really want this slot right now? NOT MANY.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 3:47 am

Quoting klwright69 (Reply 19):

They're all having fantasies that one day these night slots would become day slots, but every time they do internal route reviews they realize it's beyond the bleeding threshold they can handle

So now it's like musical chairs

Why cant DOT think outside the box and split the route authority : something like M W F Sa for AA LAX-HND then T Th Su for DL SEA-HND ? that way all markets can be covered and no one will bleed too badly
 
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enilria
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:00 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 13):
Right on! I wouldn't be surprised to see this exact language in the filing.

I completely agree, just not in Delta's filing.
 
azjubilee
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:38 am

I must say I'm a little shocked at this development. That said, I think Hawaiian makes the best case, but alas, I suspect it will go to AA. I highly doubt UA will apply, having just won their SFO-HND authority, though I expect DL to apply to defend their SEA intentions.
 
alfa164
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:57 am

Hasn't DL contended they are meeting the letter of the law here?

Does anyone else smell a lawsuit over the DOT ruling?
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fxramper
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:15 am

Quoting Mah4546 (Thread starter):
Maybe UA will throw something in, too.

EWR-HND?
 
HPRamper
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:25 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
It's interesting that now two of DL's new SEA international routes have failed - KIX and HND. We can probably expect DL to try TPE and have it work, but how much more expansion can DL take on at SEA?

Be interesting to see how DL does going head to head with EVA which has been on the route for quite a while.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:33 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 13):
SEA is the best location in the US for an Asia gateway. Eventually it will work for DL.

Not to be nitpicky, but demographically speaking, this is questionable. YVR is a major Asian gateway, and is a stone's throw to the north already.

The San Francisco Bay Area and Los Angeles have populations of Asian ethnicities so large (1.5 million, and 1.8 million respectively) that they are double the entire population of Seattle city proper (~650K).
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chrisp390
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 5:54 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 26):

Traffic from all 3 of those places could be routed through SEA to Asia
 
slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:05 am

Delta deserves to loose SEA-HND at this point. I think letting someone use it for Hawaii makes the most sense be UA or HA. At least it will stick and be useful.
 
aaway
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:40 am

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 2):
they'll probably give it to AA, but who knows if it'll be profitable at all (other posts have shown DL's LAX-HND service in only mid 70s load factor)

The competitive spat over LAX is so overarching. AA and DL are duplicating routes wherever possible - losses be damned! (Naturally, AA will claim advantage due to the JV with JAL).
"The greatest mistake you can make in life is to continually be afraid you will make one." - Elbert Hubbard
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:42 am

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 27):

That's like asking a londoner to transit at MUC ...
 
boilerla
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:26 am

Quoting chrisp390 (Reply 27):
Traffic from all 3 of those places could be routed through SEA to Asia

People in SFO should add 3-4 hours to a 14 hour flight just so they can have the "privilege" of flying DL to Asia, instead of choosing one of the literally dozens of TPAC flights that exist at their home airport? Really?

Quoting Thomaas (Reply 15):
I would like to see UA bid for either ORD-HND or EWR-HND.

Personally I don't think the slot times are bad for the east coast; 6am departure and 10pm arrival makes for a long day, assuming just a small nap on the plane...but you go to bed and wake up adjusted. AA had problems making it work, and not sure UA wants to jump into that hot mess (do they have a spare 788 with the latest changes?) but I'd love to see it tried.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 7:37 am

Quoting commavia (Reply 1):
So it appears Delta actually faces the real prospect of losing the authority. I must admit - I never actually thought this would get this far. Wow.

  

Quoting enilria (Reply 7):
They will reapply as they always do and probably promise never to do it again...oops we just did it again...but after this we super-promise pinky-swear...oops we did it again...but that was the absolute last time, we were just unable to follow our originally promised business plan because of $100 oil...oops we did it again.

   I never thought this day would come. Next thing you know WN is not going to get its way   

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 20):
Why cant DOT think outside the box and split the route authority : something like M W F Sa for AA LAX-HND then T Th Su for DL SEA-HND ? that way all markets can be covered and no one will bleed too badly

They've been doing that...days 1-89 they don't operate it and on day 90 they fly it, and repeat 
Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 14):
SEA is only good geographically for certain areas. For anyone in eastern time zone, there is no geographic advantage of picking SEA-Asia over ORD DTW EWR.

I'm not worried about SEA too much. It's a great place for a hub, it's a growing economy with loads of corporations, and in the long run it'll probably work out just fine for DL. LAX on the other hand for AA and DL...that's going to be a slug fest with minimal reward for anyone.
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HPRamper
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:24 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 26):
Not to be nitpicky, but demographically speaking, this is questionable. YVR is a major Asian gateway, and is a stone's throw to the north already.

Nobody in the YVR market is driving to fly out of SEA, and vice versa. They are completely separate markets, so why bring it up?

Quoting boilerla (Reply 31):
People in SFO should add 3-4 hours to a 14 hour flight just so they can have the "privilege" of flying DL to Asia, instead of choosing one of the literally dozens of TPAC flights that exist at their home airport? Really?

That wasn't the point. SFO is taken by UA, it's a much better idea for DL to make a home in SEA than to try to compete at SFO. That would make zero financial sense. If someone wants to fly on DL, they'll go through either SEA or LAX, and they'll deal with any perceived inconvenience.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:32 am

I don't see the DOJ authorizing a 2nd LAX-HND flight over any of the potential unserved markets.

If someone applied for GUM-HND would it have an edge over a 2nd Hawaii-HND service or would KOA be considered a totally separate market from HNL and be treated as a new market?
 
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Pohakuloa
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 12:51 pm

Quoting boilerla (Reply 31):
Personally I don't think the slot times are bad for the east coast; 6am departure and 10pm arrival makes for a long day, assuming just a small nap on the plane...but you go to bed and wake up adjusted.

Okay logic aside (logic being keep your planes flying to generate additional potential revenue), as an airline bleeding badly every time you fly a city pair with limited time frame on one end (in this case HND), why insist on the earliest arrival time (assuming to make public transport concerns) and turn back in a few hours only to bleed on both legs. Yes your aircraft would be better generating revenue, but if you want the slot get creative.

Example, why not try a late night/early morning east coast departure say 1-3am, arrive at HND between 4-6am ready for the business day. Return flight departing HND at 10pm arriving east coast 9-10pm in the evening and though a late night home, still able to sleep for work in the morning. heck business travelers can hit the ground running and when their done gt dinner and straight to the airport. yes the plane sits 15-16+ hours, but could the adjusted time and parked aircraft create a greater pull just due to arrival/departure times on the HND end to justify parking an aircraft for that long and either losing less money or getting closer to even or black and be able to hold on to your slot/city pair in case it does change (which i dont think it will)? or is it worth the triage tactics being placed on a city pair to see what happens and in turn having the slot be in jeopardy as we are seeing here with DL?

I assume carriers know this regardless of my pondering here. The timing on one end of a flight from the east coast usa will always be unfavorable, but those are the cards dealt by the Japanese govt to USA carriers for the HND slots. So do you adjust and possibly minimize losses in hopes of something better? Stay status quo and bleed heavily? or cut your losses and let it go?

From the DL perspective, would losing this route be a big blow to their SEA operations? Being as large a carrier as they are, assuming the USA is granted better slot times with additional allocations, as large a carrier as they are, do they think they really wont get a new slot when it becomes available so they must hang onto this one for dear life?

some honest questions and some thoughts meandering their way onto the thread here...

Respectfully,
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S75752
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:21 pm

Quoting boilerla (Reply 31):

People in SFO should add 3-4 hours to a 14 hour flight just so they can have the "privilege" of flying DL to Asia, instead of choosing one of the literally dozens of TPAC flights that exist at their home airport? Really?

If the fare is right....

Same as people from PDX or LAX routing through SFO instead, even if it's out of the path.

So how do those slots work, are they range restriction slots like DCA has (but with timing restriction as well) or North America exclusive slots?

The mentions of GUM-HND sound like a very good bet. It's within piece of cake range of a 738 (heck, a CRJ 700 or E 190 could make that if they wanted?) and there's certainly demand from Tokyo, considering they actually put a 772 on GUM-NRT. Not much risk to it, really, maybe the timings work better when it's closer to the time zone?

Once again, I'd like to bring up my thoughts on a DL 752 ANC-NRT, or in this case maybe make it an ANC-HND. It could be a continuation of a 752 DTW-ANC, JFK-ANC, or ATL-ANC service, since those fly so near to ANC (at least, near enough to make any stop add negligible mileage). Seriously, it's painful seeing how many flights to Asia go so close to ANC but it doesn't have Asia service of its own. The range is perfect for a 752.
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 1:35 pm

Great, time for another 100+ thread on a.net debating the merits of HND and how everyone believes they are worth their weight in gold, yet most of them have turned about to be dogs.

I could care less since have no need to go to HND and don't need to get into some fan-boy flame-war about which airline/city/aicraft has a bigger you know what....

Anyways....

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
It's interesting that now two of DL's new SEA international routes have failed - KIX and HND. We can probably expect DL to try TPE and have it work, but how much more expansion can DL take on at SEA?

Are any other DL SEA routes doing poorly or in danger of failing?

KIX was pulled early on before the major build-up and was replaced by HKG.

The reasons for why DL pulled HND and KIX speaks more to the markets than the US gateways / hubs.
The reasons for lack of success at HND are well-documented and discussed on this forum. There is a laundry list of routes here already that have not worked. KIX is the same way, how many US cities, on multiple carriers have been tried and not worked over the past several years.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:18 pm

The Japanese airlines have SFO, LAX, HNLx2, and they didn't require randomly shifting slots around. They have found success in all 4 slots.

Perhaps the US should just mirror that : SFO (UA), LAX (DL), HNL (HA), and this 4th slot to HNL, but operated by AA.

This obsession with using secondary interior hubs has caused so much pain before - JFK DTW and now SEA. Maybe we should be abandon any hope for ORD/DFW/ATL and be realistic of what HND can support
 
roseflyer
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:01 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
It's interesting that now two of DL's new SEA international routes have failed - KIX and HND. We can probably expect DL to try TPE and have it work, but how much more expansion can DL take on at SEA?

Are any other DL SEA routes doing poorly or in danger of failing?

I think USA - Japan is the bigger problem. Demand between the US and Japan has been stagnant or only rising a few percent for quite a few years. ANA has been increasing its North America presence and taking market share. It also doesn't help that Chinese airlines are massively expanding between the USA and China. Traffic that once connecting in Japan is going on the cheaper flights through China. I think DL can make SEA work for international flights, but now is a tough time to expand into the competitive Japanese market.

Quoting B737900ER (Reply 6):
I would love to see GUM-HND. Would UA be able to turn its inbound SFO to GUM and it's inbound GUM to SFO?

I would expect that UA could make a 737 GUM-HND-GUM turn work and upgauge to 777 if it works out. United has a few Japan - Guam red eye flights. Japan - Guam does not work well with the 3 class international 777 that UA would use to SFO. Their current 777 NRT-GUM flights are on high density 2 class 777s that UA originally used for Hawaii operations.
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jetblue1965
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 4:08 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 39):

I would expect that UA could make a 737 GUM-HND-GUM turn work and upgauge to 777 if it works out. United has a few Japan - Guam red eye flights. Japan - Guam does not work well with the 3 class international 777 that UA would use to SFO. Their current 777 NRT-GUM flights are on high density 2 class 777s that UA originally used for Hawaii operations.

Since NRT-GUM is already more than 1x 777 per day on UA, I don't see why HND-GUM should begin with 737 at all. It can immediately take on the same Hawaiian-config 777-200A from day 1.
 
mark2fly1034
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:04 pm

I think Delta will keep it even if its not from SEA. I can not see AA getting the slot at all as DL or AA will back out of it within no time as the demand will not be enough. Its a big toss up, maybe DL will apply for a HNL route heck they could do Guam as well.
 
azjubilee
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:13 pm

Quoting mark2fly1034 (Reply 41):

I think Delta will keep it even if its not from SEA. I can not see AA getting the slot at all as DL or AA will back out of it within no time as the demand will not be enough. Its a big toss up, maybe DL will apply for a HNL route heck they could do Guam as well.

I think DL is in a tough spot to attempt to move it from SEA because their credibility on managing their HND slots is waning. At the moment they maintain that SEA-HND is viable, but have only adjusted for seasonal demand. How do they seriously ask to move this slot now? Their hands are tied, IMO. If they want to keep a second flight to HND, they're going to have to find a way to make SEA work.

[Edited 2014-12-16 10:38:32]
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 6:20 pm

This time around I actually support one of the Pacific islands getting the slot.

We've tried 5 mainland airports - one sustained (LAX), 2 failed (JFK DTW), 1 struggling (SEA), and 1 is too new to judge (SFO). The obvious solution is give a new island a chance - KOA or GUM.
 
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malaysia
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RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:16 pm

From what I have seen in other threads and also other sources, that due to slot restrictions, East Coast and Midwest to HND do not perform very well due to bad arrival/departure timings, the only reasonable timings come from West Coast at the moment, so I think EWR-HND or ORD-HND would not a good idea. so focus on West Coast or HNL/GUM.

Would SPN-HND work and give some relief to the troubled Cape Air ATR fleet.

is ROR covered under DOT? ROR-HND?
There Are Those Who Believe That There May Yet Be Other Airlines Who Even Now Fight To Survive Beyond The Heavens
 
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airportugal310
Posts: 3693
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:36 pm

So I am a bit confused by something...

In previous threads, there was an argument around HA getting the slot because it didn't help enough of the public on the mainland, and yet, we are suggest GUM/SPN/ROR to HND?

Really?

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 37):
Great, time for another 100+ thread on a.net debating the merits of HND and how everyone believes they are worth their weight in gold, yet most of them have turned about to be dogs.

Ding. Ding         
“They bought their tickets, they knew what they were getting into. I say, let 'em crash.”
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3730
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:44 pm

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 45):

Right? And all the previous times HAL applied, it was poo poo'd by many Anet posters. Now all of a sudden, the same proposal has merit and even GUM/SPN suggested? That's comedy right there.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 10:51 pm

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 45):

In previous threads, there was an argument around HA getting the slot because it didn't help enough of the public on the mainland, and yet, we are suggest GUM/SPN/ROR to HND?
Quoting azjubilee (Reply 46):

Right? And all the previous times HAL applied, it was poo poo'd by many Anet posters. Now all of a sudden, the same proposal has merit and even GUM/SPN suggested? That's comedy right there.

Apples and oranges. All previous routes have dealt with NRT before opting for HND application. HA never once bothered to run KOA-NRT. If KOA to Tokyo is so great, start NRT tomorrow, prove to us that it's full and profitable, then we'll support KOA-HND. HA already got more than it deserved when it was approved for HNL-HND without ever running HNL-NRT.

GUM SPN ROR all have NRT service. Where is KOA ?
 
S75752
Posts: 1470
Joined: Sat Apr 05, 2014 6:38 pm

RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:39 pm

Quoting jetblue1965 (Reply 40):

Since NRT-GUM is already more than 1x 777 per day on UA, I don't see why HND-GUM should begin with 737 at all. It can immediately take on the same Hawaiian-config 777-200A from day 1.

Because a 738 is a much smaller and plentiful craft for poking at HND-GUM as a litmus test with minimal risk to it. If it gets filled, then it too can get a 772.
However, I'm still curious about what the timing slots are for, and how those would effect GUM timings. If it throws GUM timings off too far by being in the near time zone, then it could make it non-viable for a 772 anyways.
 
jetblue1965
Posts: 5050
Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:28 pm

RE: Delta's SEA-HND Slot Up For Grabs

Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:02 am

Quoting S75752 (Reply 48):

Because a 738 is a much smaller and plentiful craft for poking at HND-GUM as a litmus test with minimal risk to it. If it gets filled, then it too can get a 772.

It's lower risk, agreed, but proposing with a 738 and its low seat count is a surest way NOT to get the DOT approval, if their prior approval rationale provides any historical context.

I recall some of the GUM-NRT services already operate at those vampire hours, so moving to HND is no sweat at all.

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