audidudi
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UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 12:29 pm

UA28, (B764 N59053), which took off from LHR-EWR nearly 90 mins ago, is currently at FL120 and has been over the English Channel for awhile now. Anyone know anything about this flight?

http://www.flightradar24.com/UAL28/50ff603

[Edited 2014-12-17 04:31:11]

[Edited 2014-12-17 04:34:15]
 
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downtown273
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:13 pm

Still over the English Channel, been there for 2 hours already circling around.

It's at FL120, 210 kts. It will return to LHR, hopefully soon.

Why would they be there for 2 hours? If they are dumping fuel - how long does it take on a B764? I had assumed it would've been a 10-15 minute job.
 
andrej
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:34 pm

Maybe they can not fuel dump?

In 763 fuel dumping takes about 2,600 per mint (1,175 kg/min). So if they had to dump ~ 50tons of fuel it would take about ~45 minutes to do the job. (40-50 minutes seems like a normal figure even for the 744). Hence i would presume same time requirement for the 764.

Maybe they are doing some checks and problem solving. Or maybe the FR24 does not provide accurate data? There are many unknowns at the moment.

Cheers,

Andrej
 
Leej
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:20 pm

Wow still circling over 3 hours after departure. Guess fuel dump not working? Surely they would have burned off enough by now? Am on south coast and usually see the inbounds, unfortunately very cloudy today. Hope all turns out well.
 
mark2fly1034
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:24 pm

In this three hour period. Would pax be allowed to get up and go to the bathroom? Would FAs do a drink or meal service?

Always wondered what goes on.
 
TUGMASTER
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:24 pm

Not sure if the 764 has fuel dump available ..
But usually they'll fly the aircraft "dirty" to burn the fuel quicker , so able to return to land.

"Dirty"= flaps down, gear down, lower altitude...

Guess not a great rush to get back , as like you mentioned... Already 3 hrs plus
 
Leej
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:32 pm

Quoting TUGMASTER (Reply 5):

Well I think she is an ex Continental bird right? There are some Youtube vids of a CO 764 dumping fuel. I would have thought they would all have same capability. Pax must be bored stiff!
 
B747forever
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:54 pm

Quoting Leej (Reply 6):
Well I think she is an ex Continental bird right?

Only DL and CO have ordered the 764, so yes it is an ex CO bird.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
frostyj
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 2:57 pm

Quoting Leej (Reply 6):

Its a 7 hour flight..
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skyhigh777
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:09 pm

Looks like the flight went south toward the English Channel almost immediately after takeoff. Been circling for a while now. Must not be a real emergency if they've been circling for so long....if there was a fire on board you would think they'd try to land immediately. Hope it all turns out ok.
 
ben123planes
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:13 pm

United have said that it is due to a "minor mechanical fault", but they also said it never even took off and returned to the gate.


As I type I've just watched it leave it's holding pattern on FR24 - maybe it's heading home now after just over 4 hours in the air...

Ben
 
frostyj
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:14 pm

Surely they can land now? They'd be in Canada by now so couldn't have any more than 2 or 3 hours
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Leej
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:15 pm

Looks like she's leaving the stack.....
 
andrej
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:21 pm

OK, here are some limited news. It was holding over the English Channel for a 'maintenance issue'. There are 227 passengers on board and a crew of 13. No further information. UAL has confirmed this and it is expected to land at LHR after 15:00 local time (which is now   ).

Cheers,

Andrej

EDIT:

Another source:

http://www.travelpulse.com/news/airl...nited-flight-back-to-heathrow.html

There it states 226 pob.

[Edited 2014-12-17 07:25:27]
 
iahcsr
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:24 pm

UA's 'flight status' shows ETD 1500 from LHR. That could be an 'info' time

Clearly not showing correct data in this instance..

[Edited 2014-12-17 07:29:20]
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Leej
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Well she has just gone overhead. Heard but not seen! Must say sounded a little louder than usual traffic but probably amplified by the cloud coverage. Safe landings!
 
PHX787
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:25 pm

Quoting Leej (Reply 12):
Looks like she's leaving the stack.....

yep, beelining it back to LHR.

I wonder if traffic at LHR was part of the reason why they had to wait out there for so long. They probably had to get back into sequence.
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Junction
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:29 pm

Wondering why there is so much media interest with this particular situation.
 
ben123planes
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:29 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 16):
I wonder if traffic at LHR was part of the reason why they had to wait out there for so long. They probably had to get back into sequence.

They would have got priority back - all other traffic would have to wait.

Quoting Leej (Reply 15):
Well she has just gone overhead. Heard but not seen! Must say sounded a little louder than usual traffic but probably amplified by the cloud coverage. Safe landings!

Heard it too - sounded pretty much normal to me, just North West of Southampton.

Ben
 
PHX787
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:32 pm

EDIT:

He just curved southeast...? what's up? anyone have an ATC feed?

[Edited 2014-12-17 07:33:31]
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aviatorcraig
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:34 pm

Wild Speculation Alert mode ON

Based on the little evidence we have...

This aircraft turned to the Southwest and deviated from it's expected departure track just west of Bracknell. At this point a typical TATL WB twin would be climbing through approx 7000 ft and would have been airborne for no more than 4-5 mins. Given that it would take a few minutes to assess a problem and decide on a course of action and co-ordinate it with ATC, it is a fair assumption that the 'problem' occured at or immediately after take-off.

Given the above, and the fact that it was in such an extended holding pattern indicates they want to land as light as possible. This could indicate an undercarriage fault, such as multiple tyre burst on take-off. In these circumstances braking performance can not be guaranteed.

Wild Speculation Alert mode OFF
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ben123planes
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:35 pm

Aaaaand it's holding in the BIG hold by the looks of things. It could be getting sequenced back into normal traffic or they're burning more off. If it's the former it looks as though it's a pretty minor fault.


Ben
 
Leej
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:38 pm

Quoting ben123planes (Reply 18):
Heard it too - sounded pretty much normal to me, just North West of Southampton.

You heard it all that far away??!! It flew overhead in Havant - that would be 20+ miles away from you!
 
ben123planes
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:41 pm

Quoting Leej (Reply 22):
You heard it all that far away??!! It flew overhead in Havant - that would be 20+ miles away from you!

I can see aircraft as far away as the Isle of Wight. My back garden points South with views both East and West - it's very easy to see all SAM departures and I can see about as far as Bournemouth, Isle of Wight and Hayling Island, being able to hear slightly further.
 
PHX787
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:42 pm

Looks like she's on short final. Lining up in sequence.


a few flights in the vicinity are doing donuts.
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ben123planes
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 3:46 pm

Touchdown! Glad everything turned out alright in the end.


Ben
 
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chrisnh
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:13 pm

Speaking of 'doing donuts' over London, I was on an Air Canada 77W from Toronto last weekend and as you might expect with an eastbound flight we arrived in the vicinity well before we were expected to. And we did several 'Loops over London.' Is this what happens to flights when they arrive way earlier than they're supposed to? I'd say we did seven loops before heading on in.
 
theaviator380
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:22 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 26):

Did your flight reach well early, i.e before 6am or something? because of curfew, flights reaching early could well hang about before landing in. Personally I think it's BS rule, so many big airports across the world are operating full 24x7, 365 days...don't like idea of this curfew etc.
 
kl911
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 4:50 pm

UA website now states flight is canceled due to aircraft maintenance.
 
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chrisnh
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:42 pm

Quoting theaviator380 (Reply 27):
Did your flight reach well early, i.e before 6am or something? because of curfew, flights reaching early could well hang about before landing in. Personally I think it's BS rule, so many big airports across the world are operating full 24x7, 365 days...don't like idea of this curfew etc.

No, it was a Sunday morning and the sun was up. I would say we were orbiting at around 0700 local time and we were due in around 0830.
 
frostyj
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:46 pm

You know I really don't know WHY the Heathrow airport make American flights circle at 5am when flights from Singapore etc come in way early at 4:30.
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EIDL
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:18 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
He just curved southeast...? what's up? anyone have an ATC feed?

UK law makes ATC feeds illegal unfortunately
 
bhmdiversion
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 6:21 pm

Left Bleed Air System had an issue. Flight had to circle for 5 hours to burn fuel.

Extra section built for tomorrow as UA2056 LHR/EWR 0900 departure.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:21 pm

Quoting bhmdiversion (Reply 32):
Left Bleed Air System had an issue. Flight had to circle for 5 hours to burn fuel.

Wonder why they didn't dump fuel. Pressurization problem so they had to stay low and the British have fuel dump restrictions? Seems odd.
 
Leej
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 7:47 pm

Would left bleed air run the fuel dump capability?
 
gordonsmall
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:02 pm

Quoting junction (Reply 17):
Wondering why there is so much media interest with this particular situation.


Because of websites like this and the sensationalist nonsense peddled out by the same melodramatic members time and time again. It's well known that gutter journalists trawl this site and others looking for 'facts' to use in their stories, which in turn then get lambasted on this very website as inaccurate.  
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 33):
Wonder why they didn't dump fuel.

If memory serves me correctly the 767 can only dump fuel from the centre tank, which with full wing tanks still leaves you overweight for landing.
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citationjet
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:03 pm

Quoting TUGMASTER (Reply 5):
Not sure if the 764 has fuel dump available ..

According to Boeing, the 764 has that capability.
http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/commercial/airports/faqs/fueldump.pdf
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:17 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 35):
If memory serves me correctly the 767 can only dump fuel from the centre tank, which with full wing tanks still leaves you overweight for landing.

True, if they were at MZFW (330K) they'd have to burn down to 20K of fuel to make the MLW (350K) which could be up to 60K of fuel. No emergency so no need to make an overweight landing .

[Edited 2014-12-17 12:35:51]
 
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fxramper
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 8:53 pm

I flew ua 29 not long a go and it was a 772. When did UAL start 764 on 29/28 and why? Tonight is a 764 but tomorrow is a 772.   

Also, what happened to UA using only wide bodies to LHR? It was announced and didn't last very long. Was on 16 and it was a rubbish 752.
 
N1120A
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:07 pm

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 26):

Speaking of 'doing donuts' over London, I was on an Air Canada 77W from Toronto last weekend and as you might expect with an eastbound flight we arrived in the vicinity well before we were expected to. And we did several 'Loops over London.' Is this what happens to flights when they arrive way earlier than they're supposed to? I'd say we did seven loops before heading on in.

Sounds like you were hanging out in the Ockham Stack. Very common.
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CPDC10-30
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:34 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 37):
True, if they were at MZFW (330K) they'd have to burn down to 20K of fuel to make the MLW (350K) which could be up to 60K of fuel. No emergency so no need to make an overweight landing .

Interesting how this was religiously followed (burning fuel to get to MLW) - is this a FAA requirement? Or something specific to the 767-400?

I've only ever been on one overweight landing / diversion. It was a TS A310-300 flying YYZ-MAN, which landed in YUL less than two hours after departing YYZ (slow flying to try and unsuccessfully troubleshoot a failed piece of navigation equipment). The flight was totally full and TS uses a very dense cabin configuration, and we landed less than two hours into a 6.5-7 hour flight.

The A310 cannot dump fuel - I guess they could have theoretically kept doing orbits for another 3-4 hours to get to MLW, but of course they didn't and made an overweight landing. The navigation system failure was not an emergency. The Captain came on the PA to tell passengers that the landing would be faster than normal, and indeed it was. However we were on the ground in YUL for less than an hour before an uneventful remainder of the flight.
 
gordonsmall
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 10:56 pm

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 40):
Interesting how this was religiously followed (burning fuel to get to MLW) - is this a FAA requirement? Or something specific to the 767-400?

The 764 is perfectly capable of landing at up to MTOW, indeed it has to be in order to deal with the prospect of an engine failure early in the flight and the need to land without unnecessary delay.

That doesn't mean it's always sensible though. In this case I would expect that either a bit of communication with the company revealed that logistical issues were going to prevent the aircraft continuing on to destination after landing anyway (parts availability, crew hours etc) or the crew themselves simply decided they would rather not land overweight unless necessary.
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7BOEING7
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:25 pm

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 40):
Interesting how this was religiously followed (burning fuel to get to MLW) - is this a FAA requirement? Or something specific to the 767-400?

If that's actually what happened. It's a "Non-AFM Operational Limitation" -- it's not an FAA requirement but a Boeing recommended limitation. It's not specific to the 764.

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 41):
The 764 is perfectly capable of landing at up to MTOW, indeed it has to be in order to deal with the prospect of an engine failure early in the flight and the need to land without unnecessary delay.

  
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Wed Dec 17, 2014 11:47 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 33):
Wonder why they didn't dump fuel. Pressurization problem so they had to stay low and the British have fuel dump restrictions? Seems odd.
Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 35):
If memory serves me correctly the 767 can only dump fuel from the centre tank, which with full wing tanks still leaves you overweight for landing.

That's correct, the 764 can only dump from the center tanks. Once the center tanks are empty, it can still take a long time to get from MTOW to MLW.

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 37):
True, if they were at MZFW (330K) they'd have to burn down to 20K of fuel to make the MLW (350K) which could be up to 60K of fuel. No emergency so no need to make an overweight landing .

Well said. If the flight departed at the MTOW, you need to "lose" 100,000 pounds of fuel before landing.

Quoting Leej (Reply 34):
Would left bleed air run the fuel dump capability?

No.
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BubbleFrog
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:48 am

Quoting chrisnh (Reply 29):
No, it was a Sunday morning and the sun was up. I would say we were orbiting at around 0700 local time and we were due in around 0830.

You might just have been caught up in the heavy early morning traffic.

If you came in before your scheduled time, they would move you into the waiting patterns. I did about six doughnuts not too long ago coming from EDI in the early morning.

If they have a bunch scheduled for just after (I think) 6 am that come in early (quite likely in current weather patterns), they stack them, it seems, and bring them in as early as possible, but still as much as possible, after 6 am.

So waiting patterns are the norm, not the exception, for LHR. If you look at Flightradar24 any time of the day, a lot of incoming flights do between 1 and 4 circles before landing, any time of the day. One to the North-West, one to the North-East, and one (or two?) to the South.
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iahcsr
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:38 am

Can fuel be transferred from the wing tanks to the center...or just center to wing?
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kl911
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:19 am

Quoting FlyHossD (Reply 43):
That's correct, the 764 can only dump from the center tanks. Once the center tanks are empty, it can still take a long time to get from MTOW to MLW.

I thought the 767 had a fuel pump to transfer fuel to other tanks. Couldn't they have pumped fuel from wings to center fueltank and keep on dumping fuel? Just curious how this works. Or is the fuelpump only from wing to wing for balance purposes?
 
PHX787
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:25 am

Quoting EIDL (Reply 31):
UK law makes ATC feeds illegal unfortunately

Seeing youre from ireland, what's the law there? who governs the ATC in ireland?
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Tristarsteve
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Thu Dec 18, 2014 8:43 am

Quoting iahcsr (Reply 45):
Can fuel be transferred from the wing tanks to the center...or just center to wing?
Quoting kl911 (Reply 46):
ouldn't they have pumped fuel from wings to center fueltank and keep on dumping fuel? Just curious how this works. Or is the fuelpump only from wing to wing for balance purposes?

NO. Fuel can only be pumped from tank to engine in flight. You balance the fuel by turning off pumps in the fuller wing.
A few airliners transfer fuel, The B744 and A330 from tail to centre (and back on A330) and the A321 and a few more from centre to wings. But it is not usual, and not on the B764.
p.s. not all B767 have fuel dump facility. A lot of our B763 are not fitted.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: UA28 Dumping Fuel Over The English Channel?

Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:30 pm

Quoting Tristarsteve (Reply 48):
You balance the fuel by turning off pumps in the fuller wing.

Are you sure about that statement?

That is, you turn off the pumps in the lighter (less fuel) wing to balance fuel.

Quoting iahcsr (Reply 45):
Can fuel be transferred from the wing tanks to the center...or just center to wing?

As Tristarsteve stated, the answer is no. So in the case of this 764 operating UA28, you'd dump the center tank fuel and then burn the wing tanks down to max landing weight. Since there was not an urgent reason to land, I believe this crew did the correct thing.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.

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