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CF-CPI
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Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:23 am

Back in the day, apartment complexes could prevent families with children from renting in their property, until families with children were considered a 'protected class' and could not face explicit discrimination.

Would it be possible to institute such a policy on the airlines, for designated flights, in North America, if not internationally? I am talking legality only, not the wisdom of it from a business standpoint.
 
29erUSA187
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:42 am

Quoting CF-CPI (Thread starter):
Would it be possible to institute such a policy on the airlines, for designated flights, in North America, if not internationally? I am talking legality only, not the wisdom of it from a business standpoint.

Oh my god.
I would kill for a no kids under 13 policy on some flights. I have had one too many flights with a toddler and a "could-care-less" mother.

Yes yes, I'm only 15, and Im the first to admit I was a bratty annoying 10-12 year old, but I said under 13 didn't I?  
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:56 am

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 1):
I would kill for a no kids under 13 policy on some flights.

I see we have a market, aha.

Needless to say, my question was spawned by the 'catfight' on Air China. But seriously, I am curious if there is a law preventing discrimination against a passenger based solely on age. In other words, if someone is willing to pay the fare for a given seat, the airline is obligated to put the kid in it.

I believe Swissair did not allow children in First Class, at least 'back in the day'.
 
29erUSA187
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:00 am

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 2):

I don't think there is a market for no children planes, but no children in anything but Economy could work, or pull an MH and have a no kids section for a little extra money
 
CF-CPI
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:03 am

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 3):
I don't think there is a market for no children planes, but no children in anything but Economy could work, or pull an MH and have a no kids section for a little extra money

This is definitely the way to go if you want to avoid angering too many people.

If children are well-behaved, there is actually an advantage to sitting next to them, since they are reasonably compact!
 
flynhi808
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:26 am

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 1):

Hey... Guess what?

i'm 14, and I was NEVER bratty... at least on the airplane (and i traveled a lot... both of my parents wire airline pilots)
this is the type of thing thats directed at SOME kids, but the WHOLE lot of us get thrown in

i do admit, there are a lot kids that aren't like me, but there are a whole bunch that ARE

just my   

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 4):
If children are well-behaved, there is actually an advantage to sitting next to them, since they are reasonably compact!

i've sat next to many people that were GLAD i was siting next to them
fly-n-HI-808
 
smokeybandit
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:30 am

You don't often see kids getting kicked off flights, just adults...just sayin'
 
USAirALB
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:31 am

I don't see why they wouldn't be.

We have no children hotels and restaurants. So sure, why not no children flights?
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Whiteguy
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:33 am

You'll all change your tune once you have kids of your own. Definitely no market for this.....
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:34 am

There may be age discrimination policies in the US which prevent this. Not sure. But there could be specified "family seating zones" on planes if the airlines could find a way to make it work without a big fat lawsuit. Think MCO...if they back third of the plane was designated as the family zone with preferred seating (and boarding!) at the back I probably can't imagine too many people putting up a fuss unless Joe Moneybags wanted to take his whole tribe to MCO in First.
"True, I talk of dreams,
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stlgph
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:40 am

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 8):
You'll all change your tune once you have kids of your own. Definitely no market for this.....

Ha. There'd be definitely be a market for this.

Quoting OzarkD9S (Reply 9):

As mentioned above there are plenty of establishments now that have age restrictions on entry. And I'm not just talking casinos or whatever but I know of plenty of restaurants, lounges, etc. that will not let you in if you are under 18, and at times, 21.

Get a plane, sell tickets, toss in some free cocktails, and Vegas here we come...
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
gordonsmall
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:43 am

No need to ban kids from flights. Just sedate them and put them in the hold with the other livestock.
Statistically, people who have had the most birthdays tend to live the longest.
 
Cadet985
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:47 am

I'm okay with kids say 6+. It's babies and toddlers I can't handle.

Marc
 
AR385
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:53 am

I´ll take a kid any day on my flight than a diva that kicks the purser off the flight right after screaming, making him kneel down and throwing a book at him, or that Chinese couple where the girl threw a cup of hot noodles into the face of an FA. I also don´t remember hearing about a kid crapping on the food cart up in F due to alcohol intake.
 
zkncj
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:04 am

Quoting CF-CPI (Thread starter):
Back in the day, apartment complexes could prevent families with children from renting in their property, until families with children were considered a 'protected class' and could not face explicit discrimination.

Would totally be legal in some Countries, in the South Pacific & AU/NZ they are plenty of Adults (16+) resort and isalnds around.
 
trex8
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:09 am

Quoting zkncj (Reply 14):
Would totally be legal in some Countries, in the South Pacific & AU/NZ they are plenty of Adults (16+) resort and isalnds around.

Airlines are public transportation, resorts etc are a totally different ballgame.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:10 am

When IATA was involved in that kind of thing, I recall a couple of carriers proposing to prohibit children under 12 in First Class (Swissair was one if memory correct). There was too much opposition and it couldn't be agreed.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:10 am

Over all the years I rode in the back of airliners, I never had a problem with children. Drunks and entitled idiots are the problem.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:24 am

Just avoid redeye and the first flight of the day. Those are the one's babies prefer to travel on!
 
29erUSA187
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:26 am

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 11):
No need to ban kids from flights. Just sedate them and put them in the hold with the other livestock.

This is literally the best thing that has been written on A.net. Ever.
 
ikramerica
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:27 am

I'd be happy with a no snoring, no drunks, no loud talking, no body odor, no perfume and no coughing constantly flight. Kids aren't as annoying as those six things.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
holzmann
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:27 am

Red Eyes = No kids under 8

Absolutely there is a market for this.
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slcdeltarumd11
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:38 am

I have seen some HORRIBLY behaving kids in first class, but in general isn't it babies who really drive people the most crazy on a flight? The screaming and the parent who does nothing.

If you have a legitimate reason then i think everyone can understand but i sat next to a screaming baby headed to Vegas on Allegiant, I asked the mother why she was headed to Vegas she said vacation, didn't know anyone there. Her and the boyfriend were just headed to Vegas on vacay and brought the like sixth monthish old child who screamed for two hours straight. I think alot of people now fly with little kids for no reason other than they are selfish and don't care about other people who their own child who clearly was scared and would have been happier at home or with Grandma.
 
ElanusNotatus
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:43 am

I doubt that they would be legal in Australia where age discrimination in access to transport is unlawful. This restriction would apply to both domestic and international airlines operating in Australian airspace to or from Australian destinations.

More importantly, children only flights would work only on routes where there is high overall demand to justify flight duplication. An airline is unlikely to put on extra flights just because three passengers don't like children unless those passengers were willing to pay a premium.
Crawl, walk, fly into the future
 
MIflyer12
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:44 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 15):
Airlines are public transportation, resorts etc are a totally different ballgame.

Yup. Airlines are common carriers making heavy use of public assets. Age restrictions couldn't be permitted under U.S. law.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:00 am

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 4):

If children are well-behaved, there is actually an advantage to sitting next to them, since they are reasonably compact!

Back in '08 I sat next to a six year old girl on a NW 744 DTW-AMS. Her mother sat at the window and I had the aisle. It was great; my wide shoulders had plenty of room.

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 17):
entitled idiots are the problem.

Which are likely the same people who don't want kids on their flights.

I don't have children, but we were all kids at one time and we all acted like kids. Too many people look back at themselves and think they acted like they were 40 when they were 5.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
Mir
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:00 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 15):
Airlines are public transportation, resorts etc are a totally different ballgame.

   A resort is selling an experience. It's pretty hard to argue that the airline is selling an experience on an economy class ticket - people buy it to get from A to B and little else. I can see the justification for barring kids from the premium cabins, but any attempt to ban them entirely would run into legal trouble.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
zkncj
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:08 am

Quoting trex8 (Reply 15):
Airlines are public transportation, resorts etc are a totally different ballgame.

Depends on the country involved law. e.g. in New Zealand airlines aren't classed as public transport, and most airports are privately owned.

By law the government isn't allowed to have that say in an private company, the only way they could would be if they are funding the airline to operate which they currently don't.
 
trex8
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:19 am

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 20):
I'd be happy with a no snoring, no drunks, no loud talking, no body odor, no perfume and no coughing constantly flight. Kids aren't as annoying as those six things.

  
 
stlgph
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:28 am

Quoting MIflyer12 (Reply 24):
Yup. Airlines are common carriers making heavy use of public assets. Age restrictions couldn't be permitted under U.S. law.

Not necessarily.

Resorts, bars, and restaurants also make use of public assets i.e. TIF district for development, economic development incentives, etc.
Airlines *do* pay for rent at these public assets and also pay fees based on proportionate use, such as landing fees, etc. They just are not free hand outs.

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
A resort is selling an experience. It's pretty hard to argue that the airline is selling an experience on an economy class ticket - people buy it to get from A to B and little else.

Then turn your flight into an experience.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Whiteguy
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 3:42 am

I say let's ban 16-20 year olds and the 13-15 year olds that would kill to have this policy, from posting on this site. It's pretty sad to see that this is what some people are worries about in their lives......
 
chiad
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:07 am

A reminder:
We were all babies and toddlers, and someone persevered us.
Return the favor!

[Edited 2014-12-18 22:09:44]
 
32andBelow
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:16 am

Quoting stlgph (Reply 29):
Resorts, bars, and restaurants also make use of public assets i.e. TIF district for development, economic development incentives, etc.
Airlines *do* pay for rent at these public assets and also pay fees based on proportionate use, such as landing fees, etc. They just are not free hand outs.

No a common carrier is a legal term that carriers legal responsibilities. You literally cannot deny someone that is not a safety risk

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_carrier

"An important legal requirement for common carrier as public provider is that it cannot discriminate, that is refuse the service unless there is some compelling reason."

[Edited 2014-12-18 22:17:21]
 
zrs70
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:46 am

I can see it now. A flight is cancelled and the family can't be booked on the next one. Why because it's a "no kids flight ."

Not going to happen.

That said, United used to have "men only" flights, I think in the LGA-ORD market.
20 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2020
 
b747400erf
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:39 am

I remember reading a story about a court in America refusing children to be part of a protected class that the elderly and disabled are considered part of. You can discriminate against children, but as stated above air carriers have other requirements. I could be wrong on this.
 
JimJupiter
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:51 am

The 50s called, they want their thread back.   
One is born, one runs up bills, one dies.
 
infinit
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:56 am

But consider what it does to the airline's image. If you're a wealthy mom with a 1-year old, able to afford Business Class fares for your holidays, how would you feel about that airline? If it were me, I'd probably never fly that airline again...

I think an "infants-free" cabin within a plane is fair though
 
Alfons
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:01 am

I have a better suggestion. Airlines should do a classification between people who don't like kids, and people who don't mind flying with kids/babies on board. The airplane with people who don't like kids, should have big letters written on the outside fuselage saying "No kids". Also like that, everybody (private people as business people) can see who does people are who board this airplane, I mean, good for the planning of future customer/partner relationship mgmt.

Can we all agree on that? I guess the don't-like-kids fraction in this thread would fully agree to such a solution.

Alfons

[Edited 2014-12-19 01:07:41]
 
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downtown273
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:09 am

We've all been there, get a pair of noise cancelling headphones and get on with it.

However, I would suggest children-friendly zones on planes. Take a regular A320 or B738, and allocate the seats for all bookings that have babies or children in the last 5-10 rows. This way, most people not travelling with children won't have to hear them screams, see them play on the aisles, or suffer them kicking the back of their seats.

I don't think there's a real profitable market for children-free flights, and even if there was, I don't think the public and the institutions would allow it. The PR for the airline trialing it would be too disastrous.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 9:43 am

Quoting chiad (Reply 31):
We were all babies and toddlers, and someone persevered us.

Most of our parents cared how we acted in public and did something about it. When my Mom took us to respectable public places she expected exemplary behavior or there would be a price to pay.

Quoting Alfons (Reply 37):
Airlines should do a classification between people who don't like kids

Like back in the day, Smoking or non-smoking? now Children or no children?

I do believe kids say under 5 should be kept out of premium cabins. If you've ever listened to the Bill Cosby routine about 'Jeffery' you'll know why.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
jumpseat
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:51 pm

There's probably a market for this. You can't guarantee a peaceful flight though, even with no children. As cabin crew, i've often been a flight where children are far better behaved than most adults. Take a night flight to IBZ for example, in the middle of the summer season. Enough said. *shudders*
 
IADCA
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:03 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 29):
Not necessarily.

Resorts, bars, and restaurants also make use of public assets i.e. TIF district for development, economic development incentives, etc.
Airlines *do* pay for rent at these public assets and also pay fees based on proportionate use, such as landing fees, etc. They just are not free hand outs.

"Common carrier" is an important legal term of art that includes a lot of relatively specific non-discrimination provisions and specific regulatory requirements. You couldn't ban children from a flight on a scheduled commercial airline flight unless you could show a fairly compelling reason to do so. Commercial expediency would not suffice.

Edit: To be clear, this is specific to the United States.

[Edited 2014-12-19 09:05:00]
 
ORDJOE
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:14 pm

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 11):
Just sedate them

Could be an idea, Benzodiazepines (valium is in that class) are quite safe.

I do no think it would work, there are just too many families and people tend to go for the cheapest seats anyway, so not many would pay much of a premium for it (I do love the idea of it)


I truly believe they should be banned from F+J and and lounges very minimal family market for those products.
 
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claybird
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:17 pm

One example: I seriously doubt if BA's Business Class only configuration flight out of LCY to KJFK in the A318 sees a lot of children passengers.
 
airbazar
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 1):
I would kill for a no kids under 13 policy on some flights. I have had one too many flights with a toddler and a "could-care-less" mother.

I have had far more bad flights as a result of an adult behaving poorly, than children behaving poorly. All you have to do is scan the newswire and you'll find one almost daily. I'd would take a children only flight over an adult only flight any day of the week. Having said that, who would fly these "no-children" flights? We've already established that business only routes don't work. Airlines need the "cattle" class to pay the bills. It would be a marketing nightmare and a sure disaster for the airline.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:47 pm

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 42):
Benzodiazepines (valium is in that class) are quite safe.

Sure, a drug whose withdrawal can kill is 'safe'...
 
PanAm1971
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:55 pm

Nothing like shelling out for business class and then being inundated by the sound of crying children. Un-PC to say... but what most people actually think.
 
stlgph
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 5:58 pm

Quoting IADCA (Reply 41):
"Common carrier" is an important legal term of art that includes a lot of relatively specific non-discrimination provisions and specific regulatory requirements. You couldn't ban children from a flight on a scheduled commercial airline flight unless you could show a fairly compelling reason to do so. Commercial expediency would not suffice.

You run it as a charter.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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stevemchey
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:00 pm

Here is why I don't think it would make sense for an airline:

Airlines make most of their money in business and first class and those seats are occupied by business travelers. These travelers are loyal to an airline because they collect plenty of miles they can use to fly their family on vacation.

However, if their children can't fly on that airline (or there are severe limitations to children with that airline), what good are those miles to the business traveler.

Not saying there is no market... but not enough incentive for an airline to actually implement it.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:01 pm

A large amount of people in the back are flying for business too on high price Y tickets.

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