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casinterest
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:07 pm

I don't think any airline should have a no kid fight. What I do think though is that more Airports should have an indoor play area to let kids get some energy out prior to boarding the flight. It would be great on layovers, and any delayed flights. These kids who are used to running energy off, have a hard time turning that switch off just because ignorant adults that have forgotten their own youth expect them to.

As to the legality posed in the question, I am rather sure that the first bumped flight would bring so many lawsuits that most lawyers would preemptively prevent the airline from implementing such a policy.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
IADCA
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:12 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 47):
Quoting IADCA (Reply 41):
"Common carrier" is an important legal term of art that includes a lot of relatively specific non-discrimination provisions and specific regulatory requirements. You couldn't ban children from a flight on a scheduled commercial airline flight unless you could show a fairly compelling reason to do so. Commercial expediency would not suffice.

You run it as a charter.

Still couldn't offer it for sale publicly. If one individual or entity charters an entire plane, then he she or it gets to decide who's on board. If you sell it publicly, common carrier rules apply.
 
birdbrainz
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:12 pm

How about "no a**hole flights instead?

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 20):
I'd be happy with a no snoring, no drunks, no loud talking, no body odor, no perfume and no coughing constantly flight. Kids aren't as annoying as those six things.

Exactly.

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 30):
I say let's ban 16-20 year olds and the 13-15 year olds that would kill to have this policy, from posting on this site. It's pretty sad to see that this is what some people are worried about in their lives......

Couldn't agree more.

Also, I thought about the comment about ignoring the misbehaving toddler: If you react too much to the bad behavior, you're encouraging it. Dealing with a temper tantrum is walking a fine line.
A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is if the aircraft can be flown again.
 
pasu129
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:56 pm

Quoting CF-CPI (Thread starter):

Back in the day, apartment complexes could prevent families with children from renting in their property, until families with children were considered a 'protected class' and could not face explicit discrimination.

We still have this in US, senior citizens community prohibits families under a certain age within community.

Quoting gordonsmall (Reply 11):

No need to ban kids from flights. Just sedate them and put them in the hold with the other livestock.

As much as I agree with this, I'll have to admit, most of the time it's not the children's fault for not behaving. It is, however, the parents not properly teaching their children on public places etiquette. Was on a HKG-LAX flight recently, a boy was running around the cabin in business class and basically jumping from one seat to another messing with seat controls. I blame the parent for not properly looking after the kid and not properly teaching the kid about public places etiquette.

In regards to market, I believe there are. As much as we love our kids, there are people who don't want kids. Either way it would create noise, no kids zone, or kids zone. Why not make money while making noise?
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intsim
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:01 pm

It seems to me crying is more a result of little ears and the pressure changes that happen during flight. I have traveled numerous times with my little girls. I have been lucky to have no big crying fits, I don't know if pre-planning really helped, but it doesn't hurt. I don't know how many times I have been glared at on a plane because my kids were already determined to be a problem. I could be misreading the looks but it isually isn't a friendly look.

The one time I had my child bumping the seat in front of me was when my oldest was a little over a year old and she was a lap child on a CR7. The guy in front of me was a big biker guy who looked like he could do damage to a person. I appologized to the guy at the end of the flight and he got the biggest smile on his face and said he loved kids and had grandkids so no issue.

I have had more problems from tweens kicking my seats, people reclining into my knees, people with large amounts of personal space that have no regard for yours, and the now common lack of courtesy or regard to others.

If you go in with no tolerance you are going to make it worse for yourself. Have you considered what annoying traits you may have?
 
lpdal
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:02 pm

Yes, it is possible, however, you'd have to comply with all applicable discrimination laws in the jurisdictions that you're flying to. Since most high-yielding airports are public property, and thus under discriminatory law, you would pretty much need to build your own private airport, buy your own airplanes (well that was a bit obvious), buy the infrastructure to support the airplanes (ground vehicles, ground staff), and then spin the airline's advertising campaign so that legally the business is intended for adult customers only. In the same vein as casinos, nightclubs, and the like. You could call it "AdulteryAir" or "Adult Airways", with bars, poker tables, and plenty of booze to go around. Maybe Hugh Hefner or a clone of him could fund such a venture. But the real question is, would such a venture generate sufficient profits to continue being viable?  

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:04 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 55):
Yes, it is possible, however, you'd have to comply with all applicable discrimination laws in the jurisdictions that you're flying to. Since most high-yielding airports are public property, and thus under discriminatory law, you would pretty much need to build your own private airport, buy your own airplanes (well that was a bit obvious), buy the infrastructure to support the airplanes (ground vehicles, ground staff), and then spin the airline's advertising campaign so that legally the business is intended for adult customers only. In the same vein as casinos, nightclubs, and the like. You could call it "AdulteryAir" or "Adult Airways", with bars, poker tables, and plenty of booze to go around. Maybe Hugh Hefner or a clone of him could fund such a venture. But the real question is, would such a venture generate sufficient profits to continue being viable?  

-LPDAL

But if it is a scheduled public service and not a charter it still falls under common carrier laws.
 
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WesternDC6B
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:12 pm

Quoting CF-CPI (Reply 4):
If children are well-behaved, there is actually an advantage to sitting next to them, since they are reasonably compact!

The few times I've had a young 'un next to me, they really behave. I am big, burly, have a bit of a belly, and a fairly big beard. Think trimmed Phil Robertson. They think I might be Santa Claus / Father Christmas / Papa Natale, and that I am watching to see if they are naughty or nice.

One flight I was on many years ago had a young couple across the aisle from me. Their baby was being fussy and the mom was doing her best to calm him down. Same with the young father, all to no avail. I am not much for kids and never had any of my own, but I seem to have a magic power with babies. "Here, let me have him!". They at this point were willing to try anything, including handing their kid off to a man who looks like a cross between a grizzly bear and a retired Viking. I get the kid, he looks up at me, breaks into a smile, and started to gurgle with what i think was contentment. Inside of a minute, he was sleeping like, well, a baby. I ever so gently handed him back to his mother about 15 minutes later, and he was a happy baby for the rest of the flight.

[Edited 2014-12-19 11:20:05]

Reply 18: Just avoid redeye and the first flight of the day. Those are the one's babies prefer to travel on!

Who conducted the poll?  duck 


[Edited 2014-12-19 11:22:04]
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IADCA
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:19 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 55):

Yes, it is possible, however, you'd have to comply with all applicable discrimination laws in the jurisdictions that you're flying to. Since most high-yielding airports are public property, and thus under discriminatory law, you would pretty much need to build your own private airport, buy your own airplanes (well that was a bit obvious), buy the infrastructure to support the airplanes (ground vehicles, ground staff), and then spin the airline's advertising campaign so that legally the business is intended for adult customers only. In the same vein as casinos, nightclubs, and the like. You could call it "AdulteryAir" or "Adult Airways", with bars, poker tables, and plenty of booze to go around. Maybe Hugh Hefner or a clone of him could fund such a venture. But the real question is, would such a venture generate sufficient profits to continue being viable?  

-LPDAL

It's really nice when high school students try to act like lawyers. There are so many things wrong with that post that it's not worth responding to other than to say that.
 
Sancho99504
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:21 pm

I pay handsomely for my wife and infant son to fly TUL-SEA in paid F every month so we can see each other due to my job and I wouldn't ask her to leave hers since I'm constantly on the move. 99% of misbehaving people on flights that I've been on, the age is usually above 21........... for infants, once their ears pop and they learn how to do it, they don't cry very much. Just remember, infants can't tell us what's wrong, so every discomfort for them literally is the world ending until the parent figures out what it is. I forget though, some of you were born in adulthood and were never kids or babies.
kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out-USMC
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting whiteguy (Reply 8):
You'll all change your tune once you have kids of your own. Definitely no market for this.....

I have a two-year-old daughter, who has always been perfectly behaved on all the flights she's taken...which has been a lot. That being said, I have ZERO problems if airlines want to implement no-child flights...their airline, their rules. Don't like it? Well, fly another airline...hence why I never fly any airline that charges for carry-ons.
 
32andBelow
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:36 pm

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 60):
.their airline, their rules.

and totally illegal.
 
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claybird
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:44 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 55):
"AdulteryAir"

Come again?   
 
cschleic
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:50 pm

Back in the day, United used to have men only flights. They were listed like that in the timetable. Times have changed.
 
lpdal
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 7:55 pm

Quoting IADCA (Reply 58):

It's really nice when high school students try to act like lawyers. There are so many things wrong with that post that it's not worth responding to other than to say that.
Quoting whiteguy (Reply 30):
I say let's ban 16-20 year olds and the 13-15 year olds that would kill to have this policy, from posting on this site. It's pretty sad to see that this is what some people are worries about in their lives......

I'm vacating the lawn as we speak.

Well, there seems to be varying definition of what age does and doesn't constitute "adulthood". In my state, Florida, 18 would be the age in which an individual is no longer considered a minor. But in other jurisdictions, it may be 16, 17, or some other age. On A.Net, it may as well be 35. Just in jest.    But then again, that may as well be another hindrance to a venture like this. Maybe you could make it work if you set the bar to age 21, but ehh...

But I don't think there is much of a market for an "adult only" airline, especially in 2014 with widespread transperency and media dominance. I would think that if somebody even attempted to start something like this, that they'd have a pile of rights groups and the media all over them. Not to mention that family travel, at least in some cases, brings in a significant piece of the revenue pie. I don't think anyone would want to miss out on that, unless you're an angel investor who only wants to own an airline and not actually generate any revenue from its operation.

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
DTWPurserBoy
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:01 pm

The biggest problems I have ever had was misbehaving or screaming children in the premium cabins. We often would mumble to each other that kids should be banned from these sections but many companies transferring personnel and their families internationally purchase a BC ticket for each child. They are priced the same as a full adult fare so most airlines would never decline the revenue.

American law prohibits discrimination in accommodation based on age so "no kids flights" is a non starter. I like MH's plan of a "kid-free" area for a few extra dollars. There would definitely be a market for that. However, that high decibel screech that small kids can achieve would carry the length of a 747. No escaping it. I just got back from a trip to the grocery store where a kid screamed for a full 20 minutes and you could hear it all over the building.

During the holiday season it is not unusual to have as many as 20 unaccompanied minors on a flight--that scares me to death. Inevitably they are scattered all over the airplane and I live in constant fear of losing one--so far, so good. Generally, UM's are well-behaved, experienced travelers and are not a problem.

Truth be told there are more problems with adults behaving like children.
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IADCA
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:19 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 64):
Well, there seems to be varying definition of what age does and doesn't constitute "adulthood". In my state, Florida, 18 would be the age in which an individual is no longer considered a minor. But in other jurisdictions, it may be 16, 17, or some other age. On A.Net, it may as well be 35. Just in jest.    But then again, that may as well be another hindrance to a venture like this. Maybe you could make it work if you set the bar to age 21, but ehh...

But I don't think there is much of a market for an "adult only" airline, especially in 2014 with widespread transperency and media dominance. I would think that if somebody even attempted to start something like this, that they'd have a pile of rights groups and the media all over them. Not to mention that family travel, at least in some cases, brings in a significant piece of the revenue pie. I don't think anyone would want to miss out on that, unless you're an angel investor who only wants to own an airline and not actually generate any revenue from its operation.

Maybe I should have been clearer. It's not about your age, really. It's that you're trying to opine and writing in a tone that suggests you're trying to sound authoritative without any qualifications or apparent knowledge of the subject whatsoever. Your post that I replied to consisted of six sentences, at least five of which range from badly missing the point to factually incorrect.

I don't care how old you are, but I've found that on this site there's often a strong (inverse) correlation between age and expansive and factually incorrect statements posted in the absence of any actual knowledge. Many of those posters have gone on to actually learn something and contribute meaningfully; others have not. I will give you a couple things, though: you at least keep a lid on your emotions and write reasonably fluently, both of which seem to be issues for many posters in your age bracket.
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:27 pm

From experience.
First up I do not have children.
I understand that young babies and new parents can find flying a problem.
When a young child cries in flight and can not say what is wrong it is stressful to those around, some times an experienced FA will know what to do to calm the situation, have seen this happen. ( on CO)
If the airline offers a child free zone in its Premium cabins it is up front, then you do not book a seat with them and they loose your business and everyone knows what the rules are.
After more than 30yrs flying I have found that disturbing child behaviour is caused by the 3-7yr old and the stupid parent who thinks their child is a gift.
Just my
  
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Planesmart
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:32 pm

How politically correct we've become. Wasn't that many decades ago, you were invited to fly first class, and an unaccompanied woman wouldn't be invited. But the vast majority on this site wouldn't have been able to afford a seat, even if invited.

In a perfect world, those who had one or more of these issues (snorers, drunks, overly talkative, smelly - good and bad, overweight, scruffy, incontinent, sleep walkers, sleep talkers, listen to loud music, ill, fidget, etc) would be confined to a sealed cabin at the back of the aircraft.

In the real world, we will at times have one or more of these issues. There must be some highly stressed people on this site, who in many cases, thankfully, don't actually fly often or long distance, other than in their armchairs.
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:34 pm

The people who really care about a no child policy fly on their private jet. If you want to exclude customers, expect to pay for the displaced passengers and added for an increased profit margin.

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 3):

If I buy J for my kids, I expect them to fly J. You do realize a least half of FFs I know build miles to take the family on vacation. If you ban kids from J, you just made your FF program worthless for those people.

Quoting holzmann (Reply 21):

The last few red eyes I've flown had dozens of kids.

Quoting Alfons (Reply 37):

If you want a ni child flight, fly the more expensive flights. I have *never* seen a child on AA's 1st LAX-DFW flight. The small added fare (few seats sold at the low fair buckets) for a Monday flight price ration out families.

Lightsaber
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lpdal
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 8:42 pm

Quoting IADCA (Reply 66):
Maybe I should have been clearer. It's not about your age, really. It's that you're trying to opine and writing in a tone that suggests you're trying to sound authoritative without any qualifications or apparent knowledge of the subject whatsoever. Your post that I replied to consisted of six sentences, at least five of which range from badly missing the point to factually incorrect.

Oh, I apologize if I came off that way. However, I don't think that I hold much authority as you say, and indeed I'm not qualified in any way, shape, or form legally. But, I chose to contribute anyway, with a touch of humor. I'm not adverse to learning new things, for that matter.

Quoting IADCA (Reply 66):

I don't care how old you are, but I've found that on this site there's often a strong (inverse) correlation between age and expansive and factually incorrect statements posted in the absence of any actual knowledge. Many of those posters have gone on to actually learn something and contribute meaningfully

Definitely! I read about this industry all the time. Airways, Airliners World, all the blogs and forms of media that cover the airline industry are of great interest to me. This may seem strange coming from a person of "my age", but I actually enjoy being corrected! Can't do anything with factually incorrect knowledge, and since posts on here are set in stone after a certain amount of time...  
Quoting IADCA (Reply 66):
I will give you a couple things, though: you at least keep a lid on your emotions and write reasonably fluently, both of which seem to be issues for many posters in your age bracket.

Thanks for that. I wouldn't go so far as to say I intentionally place effort into "separating myself from the rest of the pack", but I at least try to make my posts readable and at least halfway intelligent sounding. As you say, my generation seems to get a bad rap on here.

Quoting DTWPurserBoy (Reply 65):

During the holiday season it is not unusual to have as many as 20 unaccompanied minors on a flight--that scares me to death. Inevitably they are scattered all over the airplane and I live in constant fear of losing one--so far, so good. Generally, UM's are well-behaved, experienced travelers and are not a problem.

Ah, the unaccompanied minor days! I think my last one was in...2009? The beeping EZ-GO took us to this broom closet in ATL called "Dusty's Den". Dusty apparently was the old mascot of Delta, and despite what posters said about his "Pawberry Punch" so many years ago, I found the taste to be quite enjoyable....  

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:19 pm

Quoting 32andBelow (Reply 61):

Maybe in the US...but not necessarily elsewhere.
 
aklrno
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:21 pm

Babies cry. It is annoying. I carry earplugs. Problem solved.
 
stlgph
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:26 pm

Quoting IADCA (Reply 51):
Still couldn't offer it for sale publicly. If one individual or entity charters an entire plane, then he she or it gets to decide who's on board. If you sell it publicly, common carrier rules apply.

You don't have to sell it publicly - you run it as a charter a la club style in the same manner that Costco and Sam's Club do business or a golf course or tennis club requires membership, etc.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
Mason
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:44 pm

Wow. I can't even believe this is being discussed. Discriminating on the basis of age is no different than discriminating on the basis of gender, race, or sexual orientation. To all those who are annoyed by kids, let's make a zone on the plane off limits to blacks, Jews, gays, and women (because they're annoying, too). Seriously, if you can't handle being in public, do us all a favor and don't be in public.

Kids are a part of life. To all those even considering this sort of ban, shame on you. Anyone in favor of putting blacks at the back of the bus? Didn't think so.
 
Cadet985
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:45 pm

How about when F/A's give coffee to adults, they pass out sedatives or warm milk to kids - on long-haul flights only, and by long haul, I don't mean JFK-LAX, I mean JFK-LHR or farther. Seriously, I was flying back from Israel once, and for the entire 12+ hour flight, there were these two or three babies/toddlers that would not stop crying. If I was not on El Al, I might have done something to quiet them myself.

Marc
 
stlgph
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 10:57 pm

Quoting Mason (Reply 74):
Wow. I can't even believe this is being discussed. Discriminating on the basis of age is no different than discriminating on the basis of gender, race, or sexual orientation. To all those who are annoyed by kids, let's make a zone on the plane off limits to blacks, Jews, gays, and women (because they're annoying, too). Seriously, if you can't handle being in public, do us all a favor and don't be in public.

This isn't about "discrimination" at all. It's about having an option to enjoy a different type of experience. It's no different than other establishments that have restrictions on age, dress code, etc. and choosing to patronize them over others.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
IADCA
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:07 pm

Quoting stlgph (Reply 73):
You don't have to sell it publicly - you run it as a charter a la club style in the same manner that Costco and Sam's Club do business or a golf course or tennis club requires membership, etc.

Then you could probably do it. That frankly sounds like an absolutely terrible business proposition, but it would probably be legal.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:17 pm

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 1):

I'd be a little more tolerant. I'd cap the minimum age to 8 years.   . Heck, I'd even pay a premium if I was paying for my flight (s). If nothing else there would be less chance of funky germs floatinga around the gate and on board. But, in today's lawyer politically correct driven entitlement me society the chances of this are slim to none. You'd probably have an easier time locating a sincere and honest elected official. It would be a legal you know what storm. Back in the Mad Men era they had men only flights on some of the legacies. Imagine that today?
I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
 
stlgph
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:17 pm

Quoting IADCA (Reply 77):
Then you could probably do it. That frankly sounds like an absolutely terrible business proposition, but it would probably be legal.

I was talking to a friend a bit ago who used to work for Ambassadair. She mentioned they used to run 21 and up flights to Vegas every so often and mentioned they were quite popular.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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lightsaber
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:25 pm

Quoting aklrno (Reply 72):
Babies cry. It is annoying. I carry earplugs. Problem solved.

Bose headphones and late 1980s music.  
Quoting stlgph (Reply 79):
I was talking to a friend a bit ago who used to work for Ambassadair. She mentioned they used to run 21 and up flights to Vegas every so often and mentioned they were quite popular.

And the right market. That would be a booze cruise!

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 78):
Heck, I'd even pay a premium if I was paying for my flight (s).

The issue is making the business case. To Las Vegas, booze flights sans children would be possible. But not most of the flights in/out of a hub. You need to not piss off a large fraction of the market who earns FF miles for the family.

Anyone who really wants a child free flight will charter a jet. Everyone else is being cheap.  

Lightsaber
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lpdal
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:28 pm

What is the general legality between such "public places" where it would be illegal to discriminate children from patronizing the establishment versus businesses that are clearly intended for an adult clientele such as casinos and nightclubs? Why couldn't such a law where a person may establish a business that prohibits underage customers extend to the airline industry?

For the record I'm not against kids. I'm just trying to wrap my mind the concept of how this works in regards to age restriction laws prohibiting kids from "adult" businesses, and how such regulations relate to discrimination. Of course, children don't belong in casinos or nightclubs, for obvious reasons. But why if you, as an entrepreneur, can establish an adults-only venue such as a casino or nightclub, may not open an adult-only airline?

-LPDAL
All of my views and posted content are mine alone, and should not be viewed as official communication from my employer, its subsidiaries thereof, or any other entities or airlines.
 
AR385
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Fri Dec 19, 2014 11:59 pm

Quoting ORDJOE (Reply 42):
Could be an idea, Benzodiazepines (valium is in that class) are quite safe.

I´m sorry, but you don´t know much about Benzodiazepines. Maybe you were being sarcastic? Sure, they are safe, if prescribed correctly by an MD. But even then, they can cause unwarranted side effects that can turn the trip of the parent who gave it to the infant into a real nightmare. And to those around him. I´m not sure giving it to a child without a prescription is legal too, and could constitute child endangerment.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 75):
How about when F/A's give coffee to adults, they pass out sedatives or warm milk to kids - on long-haul flights only, and by long haul, I don't mean JFK-LAX, I mean JFK-LHR or farther.

Warm milk. Sure. Nothing like a baby with an upset stomach...and I won´t even comment on passing out sedatives to kids.
 
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OzarkD9S
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:07 am

Quoting chiad (Reply 31):


We were all babies and toddlers, and someone persevered us.
Return the favor!

Not all babies, toddlers nor their parents are created equal.
"True, I talk of dreams,
Which are the children of an idle brain." -Mercutio
 
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SuseJ772
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:25 am

I admit, flying with kids is a lot different than flying with out kids. Tomorrow our 8-month only will board his 20 and 21st flight (including a TPA-ATL-SXM trip). We take great strides into "flying right."

We generally don't pack a lot (just because you can bring 2 carryons for each adult, 1 diaper bag, a stroller, and a carseat doesn't mean you should).

We make sure we wait to feed him right at takeoff, regardless of how cranky he might be in the terminal waiting to board.

We pick window seats (even though I am claustrophobic and really don't like not being on the aisle).

I think a little forethought and planning goes a long way to keep the kid (and everyone else) happy.

With that said...

Sometimes things just are outside of your control. We haven't had any crankiness on any of the flights (one we thought we were going to), but even before kids I felt for those with kids because you can't always control the environment. I once had a kid who cried a good chunk of the FRA-ORD flight. Upon descent somebody gave the dad a hard time. I really felt for him (and I was 22 at the time).

The answer to a better flying experience is a) parents who think through the day and plan accordingly, and b) an understanding general flying public. Somewhere in the middle there, we would all be a lot happier.

[Edited 2014-12-19 17:25:55]
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zippyjet
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:55 am

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 80):

Business wise it would be a tough sell. It wouldn't fly these days. Wouldn't be good PR for most of our companies. Now, if money were no object, then heck by all means charter your bird. The closest one would ever come would be compartilized seating/boarding. Maybe holding certain sections or zones of the cabin but in these days of kids and their helicopter parents. again your chances of finding an honest politician are greater and those odds are far from reality.
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BestWestern
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:02 am

Babies cry more when they sense stress. most people are stressed flying at the best of times, so babies pick up on this. Moaning or tutting at stressed parents makes things more stressful for everyone involved, and produces more tears.

Luckily my 9 month old twins are good flyers (so far) and their 10 flights (so far) have passed off a dream - including two long haul from HKG to and from Europe they were less annoying than the drunk one row behind who acted like an asshole for the entire flight.

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 1):
I would kill for a no kids under 13 policy on some flights.

I'd rather fly with a screaming child than a self indulged 15 year old who thinks the ban should not include them.
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ben175
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:06 am

One of the most terrible things is when you pay a ridiculous amount of money to fly Business on an overnight flight, only to be kept awake the entire journey by a screaming baby sitting at the bulkhead. It's happened to me countless times.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:24 am

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 33):
That said, United used to have "men only" flights, I think in the LGA-ORD market.

UA's men-only "Executive Flights" operated LGA-MDW when they used the DC-6 and DC-6B. Once the Caravelle was introduced on those flights in the early 1960s they switched to EWR-ORD (UA Caravelles weren't used at LGA). Those flights were dropped around 1970 when UA retired their Caravelle fleet, which was also probably about the time they were becoming politically incorrect. The "women's liberation" movement began to take hold in the late '60s/early '70s.

That reminds me of this 1968 UA TV ad which wouldn't go over well today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRPWbraGpR8
 
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rj968
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:02 am

Mohawk also had “Gentlemen Only” scheduled flights. The aircraft were converted to look like 1890’s rail cars.
Mohawk Airlines’ Gas Light Service, 1960-62. DC-3’s N409D & N404D.
At first, Mohawk allowed only men on the “Gas Light Service” because the airline felt, “Women would find the atmosphere cloudy because of the five-cent cigars and free beer.”
I saw these a few times in BAL (BWI) on charters. I would guess they were very popular as Charter aircraft.





RJ
 
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zckls04
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:37 am

Quoting IMissPiedmont (Reply 17):
Over all the years I rode in the back of airliners, I never had a problem with children. Drunks and entitled idiots are the problem.

Children suffer from a terrible, terrible affliction- honesty. If the flight is boring, they will say so. If they have no room they will start putting their feet up between the seats. If their ears hurt, they will start crying in pain.

As you say (and I have always said even long before I had kids), I'll take a plane full of children over a plane full of drunks any day. And having been on the latter I speak from experience.

Quoting slcdeltarumd11 (Reply 22):
The screaming and the parent who does nothing.

I agree to a certain extent, but I can tell you that sometimes as a parent doing nothing is the correct response to a tantrum. It doesn't necessarily mean you're not dying of embarrassment inside.

Looking at this thread though it seems unlikely the business case is there.
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ua900
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:54 pm

As a parent of two, I'd have nothing against "no kids" flights. My next flight in international business is on Monday, with my 4 year old. First, it's a transcon 752 from LAX to EWR and then a 772 from EWR to FRA. I appreciate the flatbed seats throughout and the 15 inch entertainment console and don't mind paying for the peace of mind and better service.
The underprivileged kids in the back of the plane will have a harder time since carriers like UA don't do much for their youngest customers (no playing cards, no coloring books, no toy planes, no kid-specific amenity sets) and of course they also sit next to people who fly coach, a rambunctious bunch in itself with the paid alcohol, iPad central, and all the whining about buy on board ripoffs.

So, while we're at the subject of excluding things that make travel less pleasant, I think the following should apply as well:

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 88):
UA's men-only "Executive Flights"

My first thought when I read this thread. Try to bring an outstanding service like this one back first. I want to see one carrier who has the balls to do that.

If that carrier survives the PC / femen onslaught, expand to riff raff free flights where the curtain between premium and coach is actually enforced 100% of the time. Stop having those people pass through premium cabins while boarding or deplaning. Just have them board through some other door. 757s boarding through door 2 or the 747 staircase are ideal for example, this sort of instant segregation should be done on all planes. My personal favorite remains LH boarding from the tarmac. The dirty looks of the unwashed masses never get closer than 50 feet to you since they're still at the gate or conversely you stay in the car on the tarmac until they have cleared the jet bridge.

Then, go ahead with "no kids flights" to chase down that incremental improvement...

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 88):
That reminds me of this 1968 UA TV ad which wouldn't go over well today:

Why not? It's still the truth for many families where the husband pays for wife (and kids) to fly, including business class.   They rarely will say "thank you" for that, but see it very much as an entitlement, much as welfare folks, but within the family. I'd be glad if UA gave me a 33% discount for buying tickets for me and my wife in 2015, at least someone would recognize my efforts.

Quoting rj968 (Reply 89):
Mohawk also had “Gentlemen Only” scheduled flights. The aircraft were converted to look like 1890’s rail cars.

Dang, if someone brings those back I'll take them. P.S. and Flagship service have nothing on that DC-3. Might take a while going from LAX to JFK, but who's counting time there?
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FlyingSicilian
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:27 pm

I fly 100,000s of miles a year and always find the biggest trouble makers are drunks.

How about banning alcohol on flights. That would cause fewer disruptions...

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777way
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting 29erUSA187 (Reply 1):
Yes yes, I'm only 15,

Some of us discovered this forum when you were not even born, and here you are, posting here now, fascinating.
 
infinit
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:10 pm

Looking at the comments here, most of us are understandably seeing it from our individual point of views.

Since I work in Public Relations, I'd say think about it from a branding perspective. If a company imposes a ban on a certain demographic, it has a brand impact. Same goes the other way when they say they prefer a particular one.

So if one demographic is families travelling with children and the other is business travellers, by imposing a "no-kids flight", will the gain in business from the latter be greater than the loss in business from the former?

My guess it not. I think a lot of corporate travellers are going to pick flight based on network and price over one that is going to be guaranteed child-free.. and you'd create a very corporate, non family-friendly brand image in the process which is probably going to hear your loads in coach and will be hard to change.

If you'd notice, you rarely find organisations imposing bans on certain demographics. No one wants to reject business and especially not in the highly-competitive airline industry.

If I were running an airline and my competitor says they're not allowing kids on a certain flight, I would run a campaign on how family and business friendly we are- I'd offer a slight discount for people travelling with kids and keep a section of the cabin free of kids, perhaps branding it something to the effect of the "Executive Section".. but I guess that's the PR exec in me talking  
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 10:49 pm

Is it still appropriate to shove a pacifier in a screaming baby or kids trap? Otherwise, you can't really falt the bambino or toddler from screaming or crying as they are in the development stage. Now kids say 5 and up that's a different story. Today, you see very little of the old school parenting. Back in the day, both my parents (may they rest in peace) were loving but knew how to lay down the law. In no uncertain terms if they told us to zip our lip we zipped our lip. The alternative was Go ahead, act up, act naughty your ass will stay home with a list of house chores My mom had a way with words. Now my dad would launch into Ward Clever pissed off starting off with I'm surprised with you. Basically a metaphor for you are deep in the you know what house. And I was no angel, sort of like Bart Simpson, Eddie Haskell and Lumpy Rutherford all rolled into one. When my mischievous side came out they came out with the tough love scared straight schtick. Part of my dad's tough love was straight from the Jack Webb as Joe Friday textbook. Mom was more like William Demerest as Uncle Charlie (My Three Sons and Divine from Pink Flamingos). Sorry if all the pop culture references goes over some of your heads.
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Planesmart
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sat Dec 20, 2014 11:54 pm

Quoting ben175 (Reply 87):
One of the most terrible things is when you pay a ridiculous amount of money to fly Business on an overnight flight, only to be kept awake the entire journey by a screaming baby sitting at the bulkhead. It's happened to me countless times.

At most you are 26 years old, so your definition of 'countless times' may differ slightly to mine.

As a courting and then young married couple, I recall we were astounded parents with young babies would dine out at restaurants. Why wasn't it mandatory they were confined to eating out only during daylight hours?

Wind forward 5 years, and it was our turn to observe the disapproving glances as we dined out with baby son.

Age, and having your own family, definitely teaches tolerance.
 
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Thunderboltdrgn
Posts: 2012
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sun Dec 21, 2014 12:47 am

Quoting planesmart (Reply 96):
Wind forward 5 years, and it was our turn to observe the
disapproving glances as we dined out with baby son.

I experienced the same about two weeks ago when I was out dining a julbord with my brother
and his family (consisting of him, his girl friend and their 4 month old daughter).

As soon as we came as we came through the door there was some angry looks from
the other guests. But my niece behaved very well all evening but that was expected
since she normally is very calm. Also then general sound level was not that quiet either
so if she had cried a little I doubt anyone would have noticed,

The point is that all kids are different. Most are well behaved but despite that
some are not you cannot judge al kids from these few.

Like someone said above, if you are that afraid of getting disturbed by babies, kids or
what ever, then make sure you equip yourself with earplugs or headphones.
Like a thunderbolt of lightning the Dragon roars across the sky. Il Drago Ruggente
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sun Dec 21, 2014 1:35 am

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 97):
Like someone said above, if you are that afraid of getting disturbed by babies, kids or
what ever, then make sure you equip yourself with earplugs or headphones.

And if you really are freaked out or disturbed by babies and little kids in addition to earplugs, or headphones bring antiseptic wipes and a nose mask or nose plugs to keep out any baby or little kid smells like hurl, pee or poop. If I sound a bit surly more than my usual dark humor sarcastic self it's the time of the year. It's been a long grueling year for me and on top of that I detest the Christmas, New Years season. It's way too long, people become psycho and stressed plus it's just plain depressing and I don't observe Christmas. I feel Christmas is shoved down my throat and up my patooty. Stuff for a thread in Non-Av. As I've mentioned earlier if I had the time and $$$ I'd be in a tropical locale where Christmas is at least minimalized or I'd hole up with MY CAT and friends in my compound with my own music, entertainment and I can promise you NO Christmas!
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lpdal
Posts: 1966
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 pm

RE: Would "No Children" Flights Be Legal?

Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:51 am

Quoting thunderboltdrgn (Reply 97):

The point is that all kids are different. Most are well behaved but despite that
some are not you cannot judge al kids from these few.

I am in disbelief as I type this.

Today I was flying US Airways out of Concourse E in MIA. US's desks are located in the Concourse D ticketing halls, consolidated next to AA's of course, so they are a fair walk away from the E TSA Checkpoint. Anyway, I checked my bag and got my boarding passes, walking all the way to CC E. I stepped into lane 2 of the checkpoint after having my boarding pass and ID checked, and took off my camera. Right after I dropped my camera into the bin, a smaller kid, around age 5-6 ran into me, and I turned around to see what it was. I just wanted to get through Security, so I went through the nudoscope and gathered my backpack+two bins. However, my DSLR camera was gone.

Worried, I went over to the nearest TSA agent and informed him of my situation. Thankfully, he turned out to be quite nice and asked me if I'd like to file both a TSA and police report. After which, around five MIA PD officers arrived, heavily armed for whatever reason (one even had a MP5 with holographic sight and flashlight--why??) and filled out a police report for me. They asked me if I'd like them to take a look at the security cameras, of course I agreed.

They brought me into a small room elsewhere, and I watched in disbelief as I saw what happened: The small kid ran into me, I turned around to see what it was, and in a split second, the woman, of course his mother, in front of me grabbed my DSLR and shoved it into her purse, while quickly leading her kid with her by the hand. She had used her kid to steal my camera. The MIA PD officers searched the entire D and E concourse, only returning with forlorn faces of regret around 45 minutes later.

For the record, I'm not mad about losing the camera. I also have a P500 point and shoot which works perfectly, and I can afford to replace it on the spot. I'm just disappointed that someone had used their kids to steal. And all this talk about "you won't know until you have kids"-bologna. You don't assume parenting skills by producing a bunch of kids. Not to mention kids tend to emulate their parents' behavior....Ugh....

Shaking my head in disbelief....

-LPDAL
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