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FlyMKG
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IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sat Dec 20, 2014 3:07 pm

IFL Group out of Pontiac, MI (KPTK) has just been announced as the launch customer for the CRJ200 Special Freighter. They probably will be using these aircraft to replace some of their Convair 580s as well as open up some new adhoc freight segments. It sure will be interesting seeing a CRJ with a big cargo door cut in the side. Thoughts?

http://www.bombardier.com/en/media-c...alfreighterairc.bombardiercom.html

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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:10 pm

Quoting FlyMKG (Thread starter):
Thoughts?

It makes me think of the days decades ago, when Fedex was going to operate a stretched version of the CL600 as the "Challenger E." This was well before the first CRJ was built.
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yyz717
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sat Dec 20, 2014 5:42 pm

I question the market for this. The unit costs on the CRJ200F will be high, limiting it's market appeal. I know a few cargo CRJ's are already in operation (with West Atlantic Sweden and a Mexican operator IMS) but I can't see any en masse demand for this.
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sat Dec 20, 2014 6:13 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
I question the market for this.

When it comes to replacing aircraft like Falcon 20's and Convair's, you don't have a lot of choices. The CRJ200 will be supported for years to come, via the CRJ7/9, so this seems like a smart move and I'd bet you see many more airlines pick them up in the future.

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jetstar
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sat Dec 20, 2014 7:25 pm

Bill Lear, who designed the LearJet also sketched out plans for a cargo jet for FEDEX and he gave it the model designation LearStar 600 and it was to replace the Falcon 20’s they were operating at the time, Canadair purchased the concept from Bill Lear and it became the Challenger 601 series airplanes and from this design evolved the CRJ family of regional jets.

FEDEX was capacity limited by regulation at the time so they were limited to only smaller airplanes. Before this airplane even went into production, the capacity regulation was eliminated and FEDEX went to B-727’s instead.

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Spacepope
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:40 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
When it comes to replacing aircraft like Falcon 20's and Convair's, you don't have a lot of choices.

Indeed. It always puzzles me how they can make money flying the CV-580s from PTK to LRD on those auto parts flights.4 1/2 hour stage lengths... I could see the market for about 40 of these in the US, replacing FA-20s, SW4s and the Convairs.

I'm a little confused about this announcement. We know there are already CR2 freighters out there, were they new build, and this is just the launch of the P2F program?
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FlyMKG
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:45 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 5):
I'm a little confused about this announcement. We know there are already CR2 freighters out there, were they new build, and this is just the launch of the P2F program?

The CR2 freighters that are out there now do not have a cargo door. All the freight that those carry must be small enough to fit through the L1 door. The IFL freighters were former passenger planes that will now have a 94"x77" cargo door in the side.

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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sat Dec 20, 2014 8:47 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
When it comes to replacing aircraft like Falcon 20's and Convair's, you don't have a lot of choices.

IFL has historically received full support for the Convairs from Kelowna Flightcraft and is also where I believe they acquired the aircraft in the first place. They also supply whatever is needed for the IFL Convair 5800.

Kelowna Flightcraft

http://www.flightcraft.ca/convair.asp
 
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Spacepope
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:45 am

Quoting FlyMKG (Reply 6):
The CR2 freighters that are out there now do not have a cargo door. All the freight that those carry must be small enough to fit through the L1 door. The IFL freighters were former passenger planes that will now have a 94"x77" cargo door in the side.

Thanks for the clarification, makes a lot of sense now.

Here's an example where the CR2 might be useful. Vector M is flying the glorious PTK-LRD route with a CV-580 tonight. Total time enroute? 5:24. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/V...4/history/20141220/2005Z/KPTK/KLRD
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lightsaber
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sun Dec 21, 2014 3:05 am

A P2F for the CR2... I shouldn't have been surprised, but I'm willing to admit I am.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
I question the market for this. The unit costs on the CRJ200F will be high, limiting it's market appeal. I know a few cargo CRJ's are already in operation (with West Atlantic Sweden and a Mexican operator IMS) but I can't see any en masse demand for this.

That was my first gut reaction before reading through the thread.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
When it comes to replacing aircraft like Falcon 20's and Convair's, you don't have a lot of choices.

Interesting, but what is the global market?

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 5):
. I could see the market for about 40 of these in the US, replacing FA-20s, SW4s and the Convairs.

So that is a global market of what, a hundred? I"m curious.

This is a category of planes that requires the CF-34 to be supported a long time for economics. Thanks to the Bombardier 600/650 line of business jets, that is almost certain even without the CR7/9.

A very interesting thread. I learned a lot even if a bunch was considering the economies of scale needed to justify such a conversion. There won't be a shortage of conversion frames for a long time.   

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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:28 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):

So that is a global market of what, a hundred? I"m curious.

Could be. That wouldn't be a bad number either compared to other small freighter runs. Even thugh they are great aircraft, you're still going to need to replace everything from Gulfstream 1 through HS748/F27/F50 size. I'm sure on some of these longer flights being able to to squeeze in an extra segment a day due to speed has to have some value.

Plus have you seen the storage area at IGM lately?
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JetBuddy
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sun Dec 21, 2014 2:47 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
I question the market for this. The unit costs on the CRJ200F will be high, limiting it's market appeal. I know a few cargo CRJ's are already in operation (with West Atlantic Sweden and a Mexican operator IMS) but I can't see any en masse demand for this.

There's not a shortage of second hand CRJ200s to be converted. The regionals are moving up in size, and/or moving to more efficient aircraft.

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
A very interesting thread. I learned a lot even if a bunch was considering the economies of scale needed to justify such a conversion. There won't be a shortage of conversion frames for a long time.   

Exactly.
 
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tb727
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sun Dec 21, 2014 4:12 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 8):
Here's an example where the CR2 might be useful. Vector M is flying the glorious PTK-LRD route with a CV-580 tonight. Total time enroute? 5:24.
Quoting Spacepope (Reply 5):
Indeed. It always puzzles me how they can make money flying the CV-580s from PTK to LRD on those auto parts flights.4 1/2 hour stage lengths...

Doesn't matter, companies like IFL, Kalitta, USAjet, VTM and Ameristar bid on these charters. They don't give a quote unless they are going to make money on the trip. The nice thing about ad hoc charter with car parts, you always make some money for the most part and sometimes it's really good money. Alaskan carriers Northern Air Cargo and Everts are newcomers to the lower 48 doing these types of flights because they are very lucrative. The Convair is actually perfect because it will haul the load of a baby 9 and if it isn't as time sensitive, it's a cheaper alternative.

The CRJ will be interesting. I always thought that cutting a door in the ERJ135 would be another sort of replacement for the Falcon that would fill the gap between that and the DC9/Convair.

There is a job for every size and type aircraft, except probably for widebodies, in ad hoc charter in the states. It's a really interesting type of flying and business.
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sun Dec 21, 2014 5:18 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 12):
The CRJ will be interesting. I always thought that cutting a door in the ERJ135 would be another sort of replacement for the Falcon that would fill the gap between that and the DC9/Convair.

It seems that as far as the 50 seaters go, the ERJ series seems to be a bit more viable for passenger airlines than the CRJ. I'm sure with the E120 conversion program that an ERJ would be a fairly simple job though. Might just come down to airframe availability. Whatever helps get the CR2 out of service faster from a passenger perspective.

Quoting tb727 (Reply 12):
Alaskan carriers Northern Air Cargo and Everts are newcomers to the lower 48 doing these types of flights because they are very lucrative.

Yeah I saw a NAC 732 and Everts DC93 on Flightaware recently doing runs down to Texas. Long live the JT8D!
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tb727
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sun Dec 21, 2014 7:21 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 13):
Long live the JT8D!

In thrust we trust!

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 13):
Whatever helps get the CR2 out of service faster from a passenger perspective.

Amen to that.
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sun Dec 21, 2014 10:50 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 12):
The CRJ will be interesting. I always thought that cutting a door in the ERJ135 would be another sort of replacement for the Falcon that would fill the gap between that and the DC9/Convair.

I thought the same for a while, but have recently thought otherwise. The 135's may find life as corporate birds, thus keeping the price up some, and the 145's will stick around as pax birds. The real planes the price is going to drop out on is the 140. Nobody is going to fly them, and there are enough out there you could convert 10-20 of them to cover the price of the STC. ERJ-140's are going to get dirt cheap.

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tb727
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:26 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 15):
ERJ-140's are going to get dirt cheap.

Yeah there were so many of them out in IGM, that is what got me thinking! Oh well, I've moved onto bigger and better things, I've had enough fun with freight!
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Mon Dec 22, 2014 3:42 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 15):
The 135's may find life as corporate birds, thus keeping the price up some, and the 145's will stick around as pax birds. The real planes the price is going to drop out on is the 140. Nobody is going to fly them, and there are enough out there you could convert 10-20 of them to cover the price of the STC. ERJ-140's are going to get dirt cheap.

I thought that might happen as well. Then I realized how many used corporate jets the fractionals are dumping into the market. All of these jets have been ridden hard and hung up wet whether it a Citation Excel or ERJ. You can get them all fairly cheap. The big difference is in operating costs. I also don't think the 140 has any less of a chance to be converted than a 135, or 145 for that matter.
 
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Mon Dec 22, 2014 4:45 pm

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):
I question the market for this. The unit costs on the CRJ200F will be high, limiting it's market appeal.
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 9):
That was my first gut reaction before reading through the thread.

High unit costs yes, but keep in mind there are lots of old corporate jets and prop planes running freight right now, and CRJ200s are pretty cheap since airlines aren't interested in them anymore. Nice thing about on-demand freight is (like another poster mentioned) the operators aren't bidding to lose money.
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FlyMKG
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Tue Dec 23, 2014 12:58 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 15):
ERJ-140's are going to get dirt cheap

I had heard that the engines on the ERJ family cost a lot more money to overhaul. Also, the ERJs aren't as wide and cant fit as much freight side-by-side as the CRJ can. I think it'll be a long time, if ever, before you see an ERJ freighter.

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DiamondFlyer
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Tue Dec 23, 2014 2:52 am

Quoting FlyMKG (Reply 19):
I had heard that the engines on the ERJ family cost a lot more money to overhaul. Also, the ERJs aren't as wide and cant fit as much freight side-by-side as the CRJ can. I think it'll be a long time, if ever, before you see an ERJ freighter.

While that may true, any airline that already operates an E120 freighter might have enough commonality to make it happen. And while they may not be as wide, I don't think you're going to see either a CRJ or ERJ run with cargo in containers at all. It will either be palletized cargo, or in the case of package freight, bulk loaded just as many other small UPS/FedEx/DHL contract freighters are. At which point all that matters is volume.

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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Tue Dec 23, 2014 5:42 am

Does the CRJ-200F have a regular cabin door or does the cargo door double as that ala Falcon 20?

Does this mean there's a market for ERJ freighters or are they too narrow? Surely the E-190/195 wouldn't make a terrible freighter.
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tb727
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Tue Dec 23, 2014 3:37 pm

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 21):
Does the CRJ-200F have a regular cabin door or does the cargo door double as that ala Falcon 20?

It looks like it has the regular door still. I don't remember but I'm almost certain the CRJ's cockpit windows open and you need 2 exits. They have the overhead exit so they will need a door as well. On the Falcon the cargo door couldn't be considered an exit so either both windows had to open or one had to open and you needed a overhead hatch.
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wjcandee
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:59 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 20):
At which point all that matters is volume.

I'm thinkin' that auto parts are heavy, so maybe weight matters on these flights? Guess it depends upon how many parts get sent every day. The Convair these freighters would replace actually can lift a pretty good load a pretty good distance... (13,000 lbs, give or take, about the same as a CRJ200F.) Range of the RJ200 is about 1550 miles at max payload, with the Convair being a good bit less than half of that. PTK-LRD is about 1400 miles, so the Convair has to go out with much less than max payload to reach it without a fuel stop The CRJ could do it nonstop at close to max payload...
 
bjorn14
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:32 pm

How many LD3s will the CR2 be able to carry?
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:49 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Reply 23):

I'm thinkin' that auto parts are heavy, so maybe weight matters on these flights? Guess it depends upon how many parts get sent every day. The Convair these freighters would replace actually can lift a pretty good load a pretty good distance... (13,000 lbs, give or take, about the same as a CRJ200F.) Range of the RJ200 is about 1550 miles at max payload, with the Convair being a good bit less than half of that. PTK-LRD is about 1400 miles, so the Convair has to go out with much less than max payload to reach it without a fuel stop The CRJ could do it nonstop at close to max payload...

Sure, if you are using them for auto parts. IFL has contracts flying for DHL too, so I was thinking along those lines. A package freighter is going to bulk out long before they run out of weight.

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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:07 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 24):
How many LD3s will the CR2 be able to carry?

Oh, you went there. Bravo.
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wjcandee
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Fri Dec 26, 2014 12:29 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 25):
IFL has contracts flying for DHL too,

Ah. Right. Good point.

I was thinking their Contract Air Cargo unit, TSU, callsign "Trans-Auto", which has been doing a bunch of UPS flying during the Surge with their 727s. Those guys have several Convair 580s and 5800s, which they often fly on the Pontiac-Laredo run to move auto parts; basically, the flights are daily-ish. And they take around 5 hours. This limits the payload on the 580s; it wouldn't on the CRJ. But maybe it's more-efficient on the 580s if time-in-transit isn't critical.
 
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Fri Dec 26, 2014 1:14 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 2):

I question the market for this. The unit costs on the CRJ200F will be high, limiting it's market appeal.

It's a niche market for on demand couriers and high priority shipments. It's a smaller market than it used to be with the rise of electronic banking, but there are still a lot of things that aren't big but need to travel quickly.
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bjorn14
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:16 pm

From the article:

Eight 61.5 in x 88 in (256 cm x 223.5 cm) pallet positions

How does this match up with what LD3s are?
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dlramp4life
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sun Dec 28, 2014 1:43 am

How would you get pallets on and off the CRJ200 freighter unless its all bulk loaded....
 
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Spacepope
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:51 am

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 30):

Through that big main deck cargo door I would assume.
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tb727
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sun Dec 28, 2014 4:00 am

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 30):
How would you get pallets on and off the CRJ200 freighter unless its all bulk loaded....

You can fork them.
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saab2000
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Sun Dec 28, 2014 2:39 pm

Quoting tb727 (Reply 22):
It looks like it has the regular door still. I don't remember but I'm almost certain the CRJ's cockpit windows open and you need 2 exits. They have the overhead exit so they will need a door as well. On the Falcon the cargo door couldn't be considered an exit so either both windows had to open or one had to open and you needed a overhead hatch.

The flight deck windows on the CRJ cannot be opened. There is an overhead hatch but that's all. I would imagine the standard door must remain in any conversion.
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RE: IFL Group - First CRJ200 Special Freighter

Tue Jan 06, 2015 4:39 am

Quoting saab2000 (Reply 33):
I would imagine the standard door must remain in any conversion.

Wouldn't the galley door count? It's in a better position to be left in place if a cargo door is added.
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