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wjcandee
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Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:01 am

This is the kind of story that makes New Yorkers look bad. I'll just say that it appears that she was an entitled-feeling, belligerent 65-year-old person from Long Island. Today, of course, she says she was a little angel and just wanted to sleep on a long journey from NY to Alaska for a vacation with her ski club, so stretched out in the exit row of a United flight when they changed planes in Seattle after the door closed. A flight attendant told her, "Oh no you don't," and it escalated from there. She refused to pay the exit row upgrade fee ($190), she got pissy with the F/As, and she is filmed telling the cops who boarded the plane to sort things out, "Whatever you have to do" when the cops tell her she can come along or be arrested for trespass. So they drag her from the plane.

And she spends 3 days in jail waiting to be arraigned.

So she's suing United for $5 million.

She does admit resisting arrest, but lays all the blame on United for not just letting her park her butt in the exit row because it wasn't fully-occupied and her row was full. Sad to say, not an atypical New York attitude: "I can just do what I want, because you won't stop me." It would have been funnier if 15 other New Yorkers were wrestling her for the exit row. After all, if she could just plunk there,why couldn't they?

Anyway, the tragic tale is repeated, sympathetically and "exclusively", here: http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2014/12/...rlines-following-arrest-on-flight/

Two dead cops this weekend in NYC, Occupy Wall Street protesters disrupting Manhattan Christmas shopping to stick it to the "One Percenters", and this makes the TV news today. Wow.
 
IAHflyer97
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:07 am

No doubt UA will win this one. Rules are rules and she clearly broke them. There's no case here.
 
rugger
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 11:09 am

It's not because she's old or anything like that. I've met some younger people (18-25) that are the same way. "I don't care what the rules are I'm going to do what I want and you aren't going to do anything to me either!" Such boldness out of pipsqueaks! Oh well, most of them are only students anyway.

Well, she found out the hard way that she can't always have her way. I think they were being nice to her compared to her attitude!
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:01 pm

God I hope they start banning these pax for life...
 
bobnwa
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 2:56 pm

Quoting IAHflyer97 (Reply 1):
No doubt UA will win this one. Rules are rules and she clearly broke them. There's no case here.

What was the rule she broke and why was it against the law?
 
N415XJ
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:07 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 4):
What was the rule she broke and why was it against the law?

The rule that you have to sit in your assigned seat, and the rule that you need to pay extra for exit row seating. And, se broke the law when she failed to comply with the crewmember's instructions.
*EDIT*
Woah, hold on, I glossed over an important detail. She went back to her seat, and THEN she was dragged off the plane. I'm on her side now. She probably didn't know about the extra cost of the upgrade, got annoyed when she was told about it, then went back to her seat. It sounds to me like there was an FA on a bit of a power trip. The lady might have made her annoyance clear to the FA, but in the end she complied. The passenger, annoying as she may be, is in the right.

[Edited 2014-12-24 07:12:07]
 
lostsound
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:10 pm

Quoting bobnwa (Reply 4):
What was the rule she broke and why was it against the law?

1. Seating in exit rows is an upgraded cost when booking with airlines. No one gets to utilize them for free.

2. Anyone seated in the exit rows needs to be informed how to use the escape equipment. Very important incase of an emergency.

3. She refused to exit the plane therefore is trespassing and resisted arrest.
 
bennett123
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:25 pm

Not clear why the incident did not end when she returned to the correct seat.
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:34 pm

This is funny and there's definitely more than just the 1-sided story from the disgruntled grandma to come out. Had she waited until the flight was airborne and then asked if she could move to a different seat, no one would have said anything. She just had to get her dibs on that entire empty row before anyone else could.

United's PR department "weight and balance" excuse doesn't pass the smell test but I'm sure lot of readers won't question it.

Hope she got home in time for her next OWS protest because I'm sure everyone else owes her something as well.
$5 million...those were some expensive jeans! Sounds like the issue is more with the Seattle PD than United.
 
Confuscius
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:46 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Thread starter):
exit row upgrade fee ($190)

  

Forget the lawsuit, this is the most amazing part of the topic.
 
PHX Flyer
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:48 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):
Had she waited until the flight was airborne and then asked if she could move to a different seat, no one would have said anything. She just had to get her dibs on that entire empty row before anyone else could.

This is also not generally true. For one, I would say that the exit row seat is the same class of service as all the others in coach. Secondly, the fee that you pay is for the guaranteed assignment of a seat with extra leg room. The accusation of "trespassing" is pretty far fetched, IMO, bu let's leave that to a jury to decide.

On my recent flight from SFO to PHX, while still at the gate, the lead FA made an announcement that boarding was complete and noted that the flight was not fully booked, and invited anyone, who wanted to spread out more, to switch seats, while we were still parked.
 
JAGflyer
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:50 pm

Although I understand the point UA is trying to make, charging a passenger $190 one-way for an economy exit row seat is not fair. Rather than get into confrontations and act like a "Dudley Do-Right", why would the FA just not let the woman sit in the seat? It's not like she's costing the airline extra money (like in the case of someone trying to move into J or F). This is a case of pick your battles, both for the passenger and the airline.
 
ordbosewr
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:53 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):
Had she waited until the flight was airborne and then asked if she could move to a different seat, no one would have said anything

Not true, United and most carriers that charge for the extra legroom will not let anyone move at any point during the flight (unless they pay for it).
I have seen more than my fair share of UA FA's that politely tell a passenger they can move if they pay and the passenger moves back.

Also, in the standard UA safety briefing they announce that E+ is available for those passengers but they have to pay on board to the FA.

It should also be said that if the passenger ASKED the FA BEFORE moving all of this could be avoided.
 
jetblue1965
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 3:53 pm

using that lady's twisted logic, if she see open seats in F does she just jump into them too ?
 
777STL
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:18 pm

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 10):

This is also not generally true. For one, I would say that the exit row seat is the same class of service as all the others in coach. Secondly, the fee that you pay is for the guaranteed assignment of a seat with extra leg room. The accusation of "trespassing" is pretty far fetched, IMO, bu let's leave that to a jury to decide.

Not on United it's not.

I flew them for Thanksgiving. The cheap seats were all full but a number of the Economy Comfort seats were open(this was on a 757). The FA made a point of stating in a PA announcement that you could only move to those seats if you were willing to pay for them.

I'm not sure I buy the woman's story. For the sake of discussion, we'll pretend her side of the story is true and she went back to her seat - why did she resist arrest and make them drag her off the plane? Trying to call their bluff? If she suffered any sort of injury here it's because of her own doing.

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 11):
Although I understand the point UA is trying to make, charging a passenger $190 one-way for an economy exit row seat is not fair.

I have absolutely no problem with UA trying to charge more for an upgraded product, that being the increased leg room in the exit row. I can't speak for Delta, but AA does it too.

Quoting wjcandee (Thread starter):
She does admit resisting arrest, but lays all the blame on United for not just letting her park her butt in the exit row because it wasn't fully-occupied and her row was full. Sad to say, not an atypical New York attitude: "I can just do what I want, because you won't stop me." It would have been funnier if 15 other New Yorkers were wrestling her for the exit row. After all, if she could just plunk there,why couldn't they?

It's got nothing to do with her age or where she's from - you'll find this sort of self entitlement and "I'm going to do whatever I want and no one is going to tell me otherwise..." sort of mentality all across the US, from both sexes and all sorts of ages. This is America, the home of the brave and the land of the free, where the rules never apply to me!
 
Heinkel
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 4:23 pm

Quoting Lostsound (Reply 6):
Quoting bobnwa (Reply 4):
What was the rule she broke and why was it against the law?

1. Seating in exit rows is an upgraded cost when booking with airlines. No one gets to utilize them for free.

2. Anyone seated in the exit rows needs to be informed how to use the escape equipment. Very important incase of an emergency.


So if you are travelling in the exit row, you get an extra briefing from the FA and you have special duties in case of an emergency. (I just flew BRU - HAJ in the exit row).

So you should get a discount from the airline, not have to pay more. You man the emergency exit and get duties from the airline. So why pay for that?????

At minimum your "payment" for the additional duties should be the extra legroom provided in the emergency exit row.

If there is no one sitting in the exit row, who mans the emergency exit? A FA or another crew member?

[Edited 2014-12-24 08:36:48]

[Edited 2014-12-24 08:39:28]
 
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Aquila3
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:02 pm

Ok the grandma was wrongdoing.

But what I see completely missing it here is the sense of measure.
190 $ for emergency exit? Are you kidding me?
Dragged out and 3 days in jail for "trepassing"? Trepassing what? She's lucky that she hasn't been shot or tazed, seems to me.

I hope she gets a judge with a sense of measure, and gets somehow compensated for a clear abuse of power.

Quoting Lostsound (Reply 6):
No one gets to utilize them for free.

BTW I do not know where this always paying for emergency exit comes from. Maybe is an American thing. The last 6 flights I did this month in EU, half of them I was in emergency row, simply asking at the counter, an one time just by chance. 2 times with a "flag carrier" and one time with a LCC. I mean, when the flight is full, what they do, they let those seats empty if noboday pays the 190 $ ?
 
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jetblastdubai
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:15 pm

Quoting Lostsound (Reply 6):
2. Anyone seated in the exit rows needs to be informed how to use the escape equipment. Very important incase of an emergency.

But in this case, no one was assigned to sit in this exit row so by that logic no one would know how to use the exit door in an emergency. Some pretty thin arguments in the United response IMHO.

UA should have stuck to the narrative that jetblue1965 brought up....the "lady" didn't pay for the premium seat, whether it's E+ or F, so she wasn't allowed to occupy the seat(s). She was offered the opportunity to purchase the upgrade and she declined. I'm guessing her attitude didn't help the situation any.

I guess she'll be stuck doing the wedge down the Vermont bunny slopes this year instead.
 
lostsound
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:23 pm

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 17):
But in this case, no one was assigned to sit in this exit row so by that logic no one would know how to use the exit door in an emergency. Some pretty thin arguments in the United response IMHO.

Anyone sitting in the exit rows needs to be briefed. If she was to sneak into the exit rows without FA consent that could have consequences incase of an emergency. The person in the row needs to keep the row clear at all times, and understand that they will be the first person to utilize the door.

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 16):
BTW I do not know where this always paying for emergency exit comes from. Maybe is an American thing. The last 6 flights I did this month in EU, half of them I was in emergency row, simply asking at the counter, an one time just by chance. 2 times with a "flag carrier" and one time with a LCC. I mean, when the flight is full, what they do, they let those seats empty if noboday pays the 190 $ ?

Yes, almost every if not all carriers in Canada and the US will charge more for the exit rows due to the increase in legroom. Usually the upgrade is between 30-80 dollars, so yes $190 is a ridiculous fee. Especially for one way. She should have just returned to her old seat, I doubt this wasn't an option.
 
VC10er
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:34 pm

When I fly any carrier these days in economy I PAY my way up- and depending on how much I paid for my regular economy seat, the price can flux. If I personally paid to get E+, I would be pissed off if the FA's allowed people to creap up.

I hope United sues her back and have her pay for pillows in E+ for the entire fleet!

 
EIDL
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 5:49 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 16):
I mean, when the flight is full, what they do, they let those seats empty if noboday pays the 190 $ ?

In Uniteds case, no - I was put in an E+ exit row seat when changed to a different routing during bad weather on a bog standard, very far in advance, economy ticket and with zero status (Turkish Airlines poverty-class FF card); no cost. Economy was full.

Its generally a case that the rows have to be occupied for takeoff and landing which is why I find the claim that the entire row was empty a bit suspicious.
 
ODwyerPW
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:22 pm

While she might have been obnoxious and I dislike that some folks often feel a sense of entitlement about everything, if she had truly moved back to her assigned seat, an act of compliance with the airlines rules, then they had no right to arrest her for trespassing.

No she shouldn't have been there without prior permission, and she appears to have been difficult about it, but ultimately she returned back to her assigned seat. If these facts are true, she will receive allot of money.

[Edited 2014-12-24 10:29:35]
 
spacecadet
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:22 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 16):
BTW I do not know where this always paying for emergency exit comes from. Maybe is an American thing.

It is now - any way US airlines can make an extra buck, they will do. Except for just charging a fare that can sustain their business, of course.

Whenever I fly ANA (usually about once a year), I just ask for an exit row seat and they give it to me for free as long as I get to the airport early enough. And that's even flying from JFK.
 
maxamuus
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:02 pm

Quoting Lostsound (Reply 6):

3. She refused to exit the plane therefore is trespassing and resisted arrest.

This is why the case will be thrown out. She was told to exit the aircraft. She could have complied and not been arrested and been rebooked on another flight or another airline and that would have been the end of it.

She refused crew members instructions, the police were called, the police gave her a chance to do the right thing, she again refused, so she was arrested.

She made the choice to escalate this to the point she was thrown in jail. Her poor choices doesnt afford her a windfall of 5 million dollars from UA.
 
tyler81190
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 7:58 pm

Quoting maxamuus (Reply 23):
This is why the case will be thrown out. She was told to exit the aircraft. She could have complied and not been arrested and been rebooked on another flight or another airline and that would have been the end of it.

She refused crew members instructions, the police were called, the police gave her a chance to do the right thing, she again refused, so she was arrested.

She made the choice to escalate this to the point she was thrown in jail. Her poor choices doesnt afford her a windfall of 5 million dollars from UA.

THIS...

At any time a customer causes an issue, be it on the aircraft or in the terminal, ANY airline can ask the passenger to leave, and refund their ticket or rebook depending on the situation. Once the passenger refuses, it is trespassing, and they can be arrested if police are involved.

She should have removed herself from the situation, immediately gone back to her seat, and if she was still asked to leave the aircraft, she should have gotten off. If she did all of these things, she would possibly have a better case for compensation. But once you start disobeying crew members, which is technically a felony (legally speaking, no matter the infraction being talked about), she already lost, and the only reason a lawyer is taking it to court is to get billable time.
 
twal1011727
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:17 pm

Quoted from the article,

Mamakos, a registered nurse, was in an empty exit row emergency seat and was told this would be a costly upgrade.
“At that point I decided no, I’m not paying $109 and I’ll go back to my seat,” she said.
Seated now, resigned to her crowded row, an announcement was made.


People....read the article. It was $ 1 0 9 not $ 1 9 0
One person makes a typo and nobody checks it out.
Either way, screw that , I wouldn't pay that at all.

KD
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:24 pm

Not sure what "New Yorker" has to do with the subject at hand, apart from a generalization of what someone may believe to be typical "NYer" attitude.

She shouldn't get squat, but knowing lawyers in this country, someone will find something to get her...

[Edited 2014-12-24 12:25:46]
 
tyler81190
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:30 pm

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 26):
She shouldn't get squat, but knowing lawyers in this country, someone will find something to get her...

She won't get anything... I am sure UA will win, if it even makes it to court without being thrown out. I would love to see the court documents, detailing the complaint by the passenger, and if available, UA's response to the court.
 
lpdal
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:53 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 16):
190 $ for emergency exit? Are you kidding me?

Checking the EWR wiki page it doesn't seem that UA serves EWR-ANC, so of course she would have to connect--taking a glance at ANC's own webpage, it appears that the only regularly scheduled ANC service is from the DEN hub. So she'd have to fly EWR-DEN-ANC-DEN-EWR, or some other seasonal route, to get to Alaska on UA. And I'm assuming that whatever airplane she was in had a 3-3 config if it was a narrowbody, so since she wanted to "stretch out" I'm assuming she wanted to make use of more than a single seat. I don't fly in Y but you can view the exit row prices while selecting F seats as well--usually they're around $49-$79 so it makes sense that a single row of exit seats would be $190 if for instance $63 x 3 = $189 or something around there. Not to mention that those fees were for one flight only--she would have to purchase those seats on DEN-ANC-DEN-EWR (or whatever) as well.

Also note that buying full fare first class DOES NOT give you free Y+ or exit row seating. For example, let's say solely for the purpose of discussion that I'm flying FLL-EWR-ORD in first class, and EWR-ORD has no first class seats left for whatever reason (which is a more common occurrence then you might think, especially on the A319s where there are only 8 F seats). United will place me in Y (as in, full fare economy), yet they will still charge me if I select an E+ or exit row seat.

Or, if you want to select such seats on an all-Y aircraft, such as the DHC, CR2, or ERJ-145 fleet, it will also charge you even if you're in premium cabins for the rest of the routing.

Quoting Rugger (Reply 2):
I've met some younger people (18-25) that are the same way. "I don't care what the rules are I'm going to do what I want and you aren't going to do anything to me either!" Such boldness out of pipsqueaks! Oh well, most of them are only students anyway.

Oh my. Such a broad generalization about my generation...Let me remind you that this "delinquent student" pays for full fare F out of his own pocket, and follows all airline policies and regulations regarding inflight etiquette. And I've never been arrested, or had a flight delayed, either. So I do find these blanket statements to be quite disappointing.

Quoting jetblastdubai (Reply 8):
This is funny and there's definitely more than just the 1-sided story from the disgruntled grandma to come out. Had she waited until the flight was airborne and then asked if she could move to a different seat, no one would have said anything. She just had to get her dibs on that entire empty row before anyone else could.

Uh, no she couldn't. That's called theft of service and those seats aren't free for a reason. If you're going to attempt to snag an E+ seat for free, might as well go one step further and walk right into F and sit down. They're surcharged for a reason.

-LPDAL
 
777STL
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 8:55 pm

Quoting tyler81190 (Reply 24):
She should have removed herself from the situation, immediately gone back to her seat, and if she was still asked to leave the aircraft, she should have gotten off. If she did all of these things, she would possibly have a better case for compensation. But once you start disobeying crew members, which is technically a felony (legally speaking, no matter the infraction being talked about), she already lost, and the only reason a lawyer is taking it to court is to get billable time.

There's two sides to every story.

If she was kicked off the plane, somehow I doubt it was as innocent as she claims it was.....

"You're not allowed to be in the exit row...."

"Oh ok, I'm terribly sorry, I'll go back to my seat ASAP"

"No! You're done, we're calling the police!"

Yeah, no.

My guess is she was belligerent and uncooperative and didn't switch back to her original seat until she realized they had in fact already called the cops on her. She made her own bed when she refused to get off the plane when the police arrived.

This same situation probably happens dozens of times a day across the UA system. You don't hear of those people getting arrested because they peacefully comply with the FA's instructions. I doubt she would have even been arrested if she had complied with the officer's instructions when they came to remove her.
 
silentbob
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:02 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Thread starter):
Sad to say, not an atypical New York attitude: "I can just do what I want, because you won't stop me."

Unfortunately, it's not limited to New Yorkers, or even Americans. Though we certainly have more than our fair share of them.
 
pasu129
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:04 pm

Isn't exit row reserved to person(s) willing and able to assist in case of emergency? Also it seems to me exit rows are age restricted. My grandparents flew from Vegas to LA and wanted to book them on exit row but wasn't able to maybe due to their age?

Did the woman deny will to assist in case of emergency?
 
vv701
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:33 pm

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 28):
Checking the EWR wiki page it doesn't seem that UA serves EWR-ANC, so of course she would have to connect--taking a glance at ANC's own webpage, it appears that the only regularly scheduled ANC service is from the DEN hub.

According to the video in the link provided by the TO the lady was on a three-leg journey to ANC. The TV report says that the incident occurred at SEA.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 9:45 pm

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 16):
The last 6 flights I did this month in EU, half of them I was in emergency row, simply asking at the counter, an one time just by chance. 2 times with a "flag carrier" and one time with a LCC. I mean, when the flight is full, what they

well, many European Carriers charge for exit seats, but CKI agents also learn to put a suitable person at the exit and not leave it empty. In the good old times, before they started charging, asking at the counter was the only way to get an exit seat unless the agent offered it to you to fill it with a suitable person. When I did CKI, I stopped 11 years ago, we had to ask people of they are ok with and think they can operate the exit before seating them there.
Seems to make a lot more sense to me too ...

Best regards
Thomas
 
DDR
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:03 pm

On U.S carriers there does not have to be anyone seated at window exits. An no, a FA does not have to sit there if there are no passengers.

UA says this is a premium seat so that lady had no legal right to the seat if she did not pay for it. Otherwise, no one would ever pay and could always self upgrade.
 
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kgaiflyer
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:24 pm

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 9):
exit row upgrade fee ($190)


Forget the lawsuit, this is the most amazing part of the topic.

The fee to upgrade to Economy Plus depends on the segment-length. Same with the upgrade from Economy Plus to Domestic First.
 
BEG2IAH
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:36 pm

Quoting wjcandee (Thread starter):
She refused to pay the exit row upgrade fee ($190),
Quoting TWAL1011727 (Reply 25):
People....read the article. It was $ 1 0 9 not $ 1 9 0

Thank you!
 
Confuscius
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:48 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 35):

I'm ignorant with these ancillary fees because I seldom fly anymore. When I do fly, it's an airline with a big heart and very little or no fees.
 
AT
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Wed Dec 24, 2014 10:49 pm

While I agree that airlines can and do charge for exit row seats, they typically do so during purchase or check in.
They don't typically charge you once you're already in the aircraft, and typically, when one sees extra seats-- let alone whether they are exit row or not-- it is very natural to want to move and spread around. So, I don't think there is something automatically wrong in her moving to an exit row. If the flight attendant told her to move back, and she complied, then I don't see what her crime was.

Granted we don't know the details, but to me it seems not only an over-reach but also a massive waste of our resources to ask her to get of the plane, let alone arrest her.
 
Caryjack
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:34 am

Quoting 777stl (Reply 14):
I can't speak for Delta, but AA does it too.

So does Delta, Comfort Class I think. The longer the flight, the higher the cost. As I recall I paid $35 SEA to ATL and $155 SEA to PVG. The Purser checked the passengers and tossed the naughty ones (unless they paid the upgrade, which I've never seen) then served drinks to us nice ones.   

Quoting VC10er (Reply 19):
When I fly any carrier these days in economy I PAY my way up- and depending on how much I paid for my regular economy seat, the price can flux. If I personally paid to get E+, I would be pissed off if the FA's allowed people to creap up.

   I usually go with E+ but on multiple legs it can be cheaper to fly business.

Quoting 777stl (Reply 29):
This same situation probably happens dozens of times a day across the UA system. You don't hear of those people getting arrested because they peacefully comply with the FA's instructions.

This gets my vote. It is what I've seen. The folks are politely offered the opportunity to up-grade or return to their original seats. Conversations are quiet and polite and, as far as I've seen, are conducted to minimize any embarrassment to the passengers. I have seen these conversations on several occasions and the passengers have quietly regressed.
Thanks,  
Cary
 
alfa164
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Thu Dec 25, 2014 12:46 am

Quoting Alitalia744 (Reply 26):
Not sure what "New Yorker" has to do with the subject at hand, apart from a generalization of what someone may believe to be typical "NYer" attitude.

Yep... that's it. And, sadly, it is usually a valid generalization...
 
maxamuus
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:19 am

Quoting AT (Reply 38):
If the flight attendant told her to move back, and she complied, then I don't see what her crime was.

Granted we don't know the details, but to me it seems not only an over-reach but also a massive waste of our resources to ask her to get of the plane, let alone arrest her.

We don't know the details, but i can guarantee you it wasnt a simple exchange of "Excuse me if you want to sit here you need to pay the fee" "Oh i am sorry i will go back to my seat"

Flight crews dont call the police without EXTREME cause because just like this incident it makes the news and they dont want to loose their jobs over it. So this woman must have raised a stink big enough to warrant the police being called. Even in the face of the police she defied them, so she was arrested. It is telling of this woman's demeanor in that she even refused to obey the police resulting in her arrest.
 
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zippyjet
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Thu Dec 25, 2014 1:59 am

Quoting N415XJ (Reply 5):

1. Did she delay the flight?
2. She was interfearing with the duty's of a flight crew member. True maybe the crew member in question might be an issue but what kills if for her was when she got all New Yord attitude and said she could do what she wanted. Did she apologize for her behavior and request to just return to her seat? Sounds like she didn't. She went after the fact and went to her seat.
3. Chances are even if UA wins she'll make the tabloid trash crap that passes as news these days, Inside Edition, Current Affair, etc. The cow will probably get her own reality show.
4. Memo to entitled jerks whether you are from New York or Timbuck Too, (not sure on spelling). If you are going to act like a turd you will in turn be treated like a turd.

It's sad 5% of the people make life worse for the 95 % of us that does what we are supposed to do or at least those of us who exhibit some manners and common courtesy. The wheel in deal foreign bazar and lets make a deal routine doesn't work in our business at least in the USA. Never hurts to ask but no means no. $190 is high for an emergency exit seat but apparently UA gets customers for it and they are in business to make a profit. UA and the other airlines just can't give things away. Three days in jail? Maybe over the top. Just being busted and hauled downtown can do plenty of influencing.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:05 am

Quoting PHX Flyer (Reply 10):
The accusation of "trespassing" is pretty far fetched, IMO, bu let's leave that to a jury to decide.

Let's start with the airline has the right to refuse service to anyone, and can escalate things fast to a criminal matter if the person refuses to follow instructions. They want not to delay the aircraft, with all the downstream effects that this has; rather they want it over quickly. If we can't work it out right here right now, then we're gonna drop you off and leave. Also, the other passengers don't need to be inconvenienced while some dumbass throws a hissy fit. And if you throw a hissy fit, then nobody wants you on their airplane -- cause it isn't likely to get better, only worse, particularly if there is alcohol involved, which isn't discussed in the story so we will assume (maybe wrongly) that there isn't.

She was agitated and belligerant = off the flight you go, maybe we'll let you fly later or tomorrow.

The cops offered her the opportunity to get off the plane with them, and if you do, they usually will talk to you and the ground folks and get things sorted out and if you are now calm and cooperative = maybe we will let you fly later or tomorrow

When she said, like a total jerk: "Do what you gotta do," then she is refusing to leave voluntarily, her right to travel is revoked, and she is trespassing = the cops drag you off the airplane and you get to calm down in a, um, "public facility".
 
wjcandee
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:07 am

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 11):
Rather than get into confrontations and act like a "Dudley Do-Right", why would the FA just not let the woman sit in the seat?

Because it's not fair to me. Maybe I wanted that row, but I followed the rules and waited for after takeoff and to ask. Screw her.
 
wjcandee
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:32 am

Quoting Aquila3 (Reply 16):
clear abuse of power.

The three days in jail was because it was on a Friday, court was closed, and arraignments wouldn't take place again until Monday. Not United's fault, and at that point she has challenged the cops to the point that they decided to place her under arrest. Once you are arrested, you are the guest of the state until you are arraigned, which the state will do at its convenience (subject to certain restrictions).

One more time for the folks who haven't been educated on this: Our judicial system has fairness as its overriding principle, and all people are supposed to be treated equally. To accomplish that, there are procedures in place that are supposed to be followed the same way every time to the max extent possible. So some Hedge Fund Genius who did the same thing would have likely been subject to the same result. The procedures are public and widely-known. Go "into the system", and many of your rights are suspended until you emerge from it. Everyone has the opportunity, by their conduct, to greatly influence whether they are going to "go into the system" or not. Being a dick generally does not work in your favor. Acting all important does not work in your favor. Challenging cops, especially when they are giving you a last-chance opportunity not to embrace the system, is just plain dumb.

I tell people this over and over and sometimes it takes: the time to debate stuff is not in the moment; it is after things have de-escalated. Jailers turn out to be really nonjudgmental people, for the most part, and they don't resent it if you're acting up, but to them you fall into one of two categories: "calm" and "agitated". They like calm. A lot. Calm gets to sit and watch TV while waiting for arraignment in many places. "Agitated" gets put through an increasing series of restrictions on liberty until they no longer pose a threat to themselves or others, or, as jailers everywhere put it, until they "calm down".

On the street, interfacing with cops, escalating a situation results in an application of additional force until you are brought under arrest. Deescalating it often means you just get sent on your way.

It's not hard. She chose her path. Whether she was "wronged" in the beginning because she wasn't accomodated when and how she wished no longer becomes important when she escalates things to the point that she gets dragged off the plane by cops who gave her an option not to be dragged. When they get the bracelets out, they are not kidding or threatening. Once they go on, you are under arrest and those bracelets are not coming off until you are processed.
Whether you think the cop is wrong or right is of no import.

Once they are ready to arrest you, escalating things will virtually guarantee your arrest. As it should. You are legally-required to submit to their authority. They are trained not to back down, precisely because they want the arrest to go smoothly and safely and don't want people to think that if they act up, they can get out of the arrest. If the cops are wrong, you work it out in the courts later, not on the scene.

And let's remember: maybe the airline wishes to accomodate a better customer in that row, which is their right. If I'm a Mega-Zillion Platinum Fancipants in the airline's program, and I'm in a middle seat in coach, maybe the airline wants the f/a to offer me that Exit Row seat after takeoff. This lady bought a ticket and was assigned a seat. That's the contract. Even if the tickets were "expensive" to her, the contract doesn't give her any rights with respect to any other seat. Ask nicely, and the airline representative in charge (e.g. the f/a) may CHOOSE to accomodate you, but she is not required to do so.
 
usflyguy
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:36 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 7):
Not clear why the incident did not end when she returned to the correct seat.
Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 11):
Although I understand the point UA is trying to make, charging a passenger $190 one-way for an economy exit row seat is not fair.

Fair? How about you get what you pay for? You didn't pay for the room in the exit row, you don't get that extra room. How is it fair for her to get it for free when others have paid the extra costs associated?

Quoting Jagflyer (Reply 11):
Rather than get into confrontations and act like a "Dudley Do-Right", why would the FA just not let the woman sit in the seat?

Because a flight attendant could lose their job for not enforcing the company policies.

Quoting Heinkel (Reply 15):
At minimum your "payment" for the additional duties should be the extra legroom provided in the emergency exit row.

Because it's highly that you'll be called upon for any additional duties and if you are, I'm pretty sure you'll be getting a refund in addition to additional compensation.

Quoting ODwyerPW (Reply 21):
While she might have been obnoxious and I dislike that some folks often feel a sense of entitlement about everything, if she had truly moved back to her assigned seat, an act of compliance with the airlines rules, then they had no right to arrest her for trespassing.

I've never had a passenger apologize and return to their assigned seat without using "choice words" on their way back to said seat...
 
lpdal
Posts: 1982
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Thu Dec 25, 2014 2:50 am

Quoting pasu129 (Reply 31):

Isn't exit row reserved to person(s) willing and able to assist in case of emergency? Also it seems to me exit rows are age restricted. My grandparents flew from Vegas to LA and wanted to book them on exit row but wasn't able to maybe due to their age?

Did the woman deny will to assist in case of emergency?

  

For the life of me, I can't understand how an airline can allow an elderly person to sit in an exit row. Those hatches, the ones that haven't been replaced by the new automated flip-up design, weigh 75-90 pounds each. Sorry, but I don't believe a 65-year-old grandma has the strength to lift an exit hatch that heavy. Not to mention that some elderly folk have severely impeded mobility which, in the worst case scenario, could end up with them trapped in or blocking the exit.

Quoting VV701 (Reply 32):

According to the video in the link provided by the TO the lady was on a three-leg journey to ANC. The TV report says that the incident occurred at SEA.

Thanks for the information.

Quoting AT (Reply 38):
While I agree that airlines can and do charge for exit row seats, they typically do so during purchase or check in.

Because they're a surcharge, not for free.

-LPDAL
 
usflyguy
Posts: 1757
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:07 am

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 47):
Those hatches, the ones that haven't been replaced by the new automated flip-up design, weigh 75-90 pounds each.

~50 lbs.

Quoting LPDAL (Reply 47):
Not to mention that some elderly folk have severely impeded mobility which, in the worst case scenario, could end up with them trapped in or blocking the exit.

They should not be sitting there if they can not quick egress through the exit, that's an FAA rule.
 
wjcandee
Topic Author
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RE: Lady Suing For Arrest When She Plunked In Exit Row

Thu Dec 25, 2014 3:10 am

Hypothetical (or not): I'm sitting at the end of a bar the other night, one operated by a close friend. I've been in the business and know the procedures and rights and regs.

I notice the spectacular female bartender talking to a dude catty-corner to me. He has for a few minutes had his head down on the bar, sleeping or passed out. Either way, not legal. In NYC, it makes the place legally "disorderly" and it's her responsibility, legally, to either rouse him or eject him or both. She stands in front of him and playfully asks his pals his name and then tells him, "Hey, Ralph, baby, you gotta pick your head up because you can't be sleeping on my bar." His friends smile. He says, opening his eyes, "Why don't you give me a reason to wake up? Show me your f---- t--s, B---h." His friends' smiles vanish. She's not mad; she's seen it before and he just made exercising her discretion easier. "Okay, Baby, you gotta go." Now he's upset. Why? I didn't do anything! Make me.

Now one security guy is standing next to him. He's still acting up. In an effort to alleviate the impending drama, I walk around the other side of him and tell him, nicely, with my arm on his shoulder in "pal" position that this place doesn't allow guests to talk to the bartenders the way he just did, so he should probably just leave like a gentleman. You'd be surprised how often, done right, I have walked guys to the exit of my own places with no drama just by appealing to that remaining brain cell that contains values Mama tauight him. Often, by the time we get there, the guy is shaking my hand and saying "Sorry, Man." I tell them they act like a gentleman, they get treated like a gentleman, and we'll see them next time.

Not this guy, at least not tonight. Screw me. Okay, at least we tried. He's too big for the one guy to safely eject, and getting more aggressive rather than less. I wave at the doorman, a guy I know well for years. I know he doesn't want to know the story, just my suggested action: "He goes out fast." Got it. One guy on each side, the bar complies with its obligation to eject him, and it happens without his feet even touching the ground until he is standing outside. Once outside, he's deflated. "Sorry, guys." No sweat, pal. See you tomorrow. And remember what you just learned.

I think this is a pretty good parallel to the United situation. But once a bar calls the cops to get you out, you're going to end up in bracelets in the back seat unless you become a gentleman real fast when they show up.

[Edited 2014-12-24 19:18:11]

[Edited 2014-12-24 19:19:03]

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